Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
But breakfast would take four times longer: P = E²/R If R is fixed, and voltage E is reduced by a factor of 2, then power P goes down by a factor of 4. A more clever design with two heating elements would put those elements either in series or parallel, depending on the voltage, and operate at the same power in either case. Donald Borowski Senior EMC Compliance Engineer Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, Washington, USA From: Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com To: 'John Allen' john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: 05/06/2013 08:52 PM Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org John, I agree with your comment in today's environment but the implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost every household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS. (Well maybe a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V and then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries using 115V.) Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new scenario should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less). The customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system voltage regulation requirement. Or maybe it won't be the power company controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally. Should be an interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits for the low end and better OV protection on the other. It looks like fun times are coming to a power system close to you. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
But then you do have to ask the question: for those appliances which are purely ON or OFF like a toaster, a water-boiling kettle or a simple radiant electric fire, what is the point of including sophisticated circuitry just to switch between voltages and probably adding considerably to the cost of the appliance compared with one without the switching function (and these are typically dirt cheap products sold on price point as much as anything else). Therefore I think that the day of the universal voltage appliance is still a LOOONG way off for products like these J - especially for markets (like the USA) where universal voltage sockets are rarely, if ever, likely to be seen (thankfully!). John Allen W.London, UK From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of don_borow...@selinc.com Sent: 07 May 2013 19:30 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Pete Perkins Subject: RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle But breakfast would take four times longer: P = E²/R If R is fixed, and voltage E is reduced by a factor of 2, then power P goes down by a factor of 4. A more clever design with two heating elements would put those elements either in series or parallel, depending on the voltage, and operate at the same power in either case. Donald Borowski Senior EMC Compliance Engineer Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, Washington, USA From:Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com To:'John Allen' john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date:05/06/2013 08:52 PM Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org _ John, I agree with your comment in today's environment but the implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost every household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS. (Well maybe a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V and then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries using 115V.) Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new scenario should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less). The customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system voltage regulation requirement. Or maybe it won't be the power company controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally. Should be an interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits for the low end and better OV protection on the other. It looks like fun times are coming to a power system close to you. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6306 - Release Date: 05/07/13 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Given the way things are, we are stuck with different styles of power plugs for the different mains voltages. With some clever design, this problem could be turned into a solution. One could have a power cord with a mains end and an appliance end, with connectors that are not standard mains connectors. The 120V power plug would function as the appliance end connector for 240V operation, and the 240V power plug would function as the appliance end connector for 120V operation. For safety, the power plug would not connect to the power cord on the appliance end until the plug was captive in the appliance. No special circuitry needed to switch voltage ranges. There is another solution for simple resistive appliances with an even number of heating elements: A DPDT relay with the coil wound such that it is able to switch the contacts only if the voltage is sufficiently high. It would switch the heating elements between series and parallel connection. This is about as unsophisticated as I can be. Cheers, Donald Borowski Senior EMC Compliance Engineer Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA, USA From: John Allen john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk To: don_borow...@selinc.com, emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: 'Pete Perkins' peperkin...@cs.com Date: 05/07/2013 12:16 PM Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org But then you do have to ask the question: for those appliances which are purely ON or OFF like a toaster, a water-boiling kettle or a simple radiant electric fire, what is the point of including ?sophisticated? circuitry just to switch between voltages ? and probably adding considerably to the cost of the appliance compared with one without the switching function (and these are typically dirt cheap products sold on price point as much as anything else). Therefore I think that the day of the ?universal voltage appliance? is still a LOOONG way off for products like these J - especially for markets (like the USA) where ?universal voltage sockets? are rarely, if ever, likely to be seen (thankfully!). John Allen W.London, UK From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of don_borow...@selinc.com Sent: 07 May 2013 19:30 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: Pete Perkins Subject: RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle But breakfast would take four times longer: P = E²/R If R is fixed, and voltage E is reduced by a factor of 2, then power P goes down by a factor of 4. A more clever design with two heating elements would put those elements either in series or parallel, depending on the voltage, and operate at the same power in either case. Donald Borowski Senior EMC Compliance Engineer Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, Washington, USA From:Pete Perkins peperkin...@cs.com To:'John Allen' john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date:05/06/2013 08:52 PM Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org John, I agree with your comment in today's environment but the implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost every household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS. (Well maybe a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V and then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries using 115V.) Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new scenario should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less). The customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system voltage regulation requirement. Or maybe it won't be the power company controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally. Should be an interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits for the low end and better OV protection on the other. It looks like fun times are coming to a power system close to you. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
*From:* John Allen *Sent:* Tuesday, May 07, 2013 12:14 what is the point of including “sophisticated” circuitry Judging from historical appliance development, a clock. Judging from the direction of things, to turn your toaster off without your foreknowledge or permission because your using too much electricity, and so Google can let you know when you need to buy more certified organically produced, free trade soy-milk. Peter Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet) http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl e.aspx I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box). The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets. Regards, Peter L. Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Not acceptable for most construction according to NEC, but I can think of one allowance per 70E. UL says that their mark is not authorized for this unit. Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Peter Tarver Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 9:56 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet) http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl e.aspx I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box). The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
I couldn't follow the link Peter gave. I think the official UL Public Notice for the issue is below. The receptacle does not comply with UL's requirements and should not bear the UL mark. http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp?cpath=/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices//detail/data/ul-warns-of-potentially-hazardous-receptacle-release-13pn-05_2013043008.xml Regarding Peter's comments, mixing voltages would be allowed as long as you comply with the requirements. We now see receptacles with USB connectors that have UL. In most cases UL/NRTL's do not have blanket statements limiting designs. If designers figure out how to do it and still comply with the requirements, then they're good to go. Peter's comments are right on regarding the concerns - miss-wiring and separation of circuits. -Original Message- From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:56 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet) http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl e.aspx I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box). The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets. Regards, Peter L. Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
John - I was able to find it in UL's public notices at http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp ?cpath=/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices//detail/data/ul-warns-of-p otentially-hazardous-receptacle-release-13pn-05_2013043008.xml From the photos, it looks as though the receptacle doesn't mix wiring types, it's that the mechanical interface accepts 125 V and 250 V NEMA plug types. Based only by appearance and that the assumption receptacle can accept NEMA 5-15P, an quick and dirty analysis of potentially compatible NEMA configured plugs is presented below. 1-15P (ungrounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit) 2-15P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; will fit) 2-20P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit) 5-15P (grounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit) 5-20P (grounded, 125 V, 20 A; will fit) 6-15P (grounded, 250 V, 15 A; will fit) 6-20P (grounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit)) Peter Tarver -Original Message- From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:11 To: 'Peter Tarver'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle Peter Whilst the link to the UL press release works, the follow-on links to the actual photos do not appear to. John Allen W.London, UK. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver Sent: 06 May 2013 17:56 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet) http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially- Hazardous-Receptacl e.aspx I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box). The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets. Regards, Peter L. Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - --- - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user- guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6302 - Release Date: 05/06/13 This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Peter Whilst the link to the UL press release works, the follow-on links to the actual photos do not appear to. John Allen W.London, UK. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver Sent: 06 May 2013 17:56 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet) http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl e.aspx I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box). The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets. Regards, Peter L. Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6302 - Release Date: 05/06/13 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Peter et al, The UL shown in Peter's email is split by a CR and there is a short segment on the next line which is not highlighted as part of the URL. I copied it entirely into my browser and went directly to the UL notice with the embedded pix. This scenario provides an interesting discussion point. For any applications which use a SMPS source, plugging it into either outlet (with any plug that fits) would provide proper input voltage for the device to work normally. The need for voltage designated plugs is thus unneeded. Indeed, I use adaptors to plug my laptop power supply into the power provided around the world and don't worry about the voltage - as do colleagues from many regions. My 115V plug and power supply works happily at 230V. Perhaps the world will work towards some simple system - how about having line voltage outlets and ELV USB outlets for everything, we seem to be quickly moving in that direction. I already have a mixed line voltage and USB wallplate adaptor that is very handy. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
OTOH, could be very handy in those countries which use US installation practice, but don't care too much for the niceties and it is common to use the NEMA 1-15P and 5-15P configurations for both 110-120 220-230V (I have heard that some parts of the Phillipines can be like that, although I obviously stand to be corrected), and where Agency logos are sometime less than totally legit ;-) . John Allen W. London, UK -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver Sent: 06 May 2013 18:44 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle John - I was able to find it in UL's public notices at http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp ?cpath=/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices//detail/data/ul-warns-of-p otentially-hazardous-receptacle-release-13pn-05_2013043008.xml From the photos, it looks as though the receptacle doesn't mix wiring types, it's that the mechanical interface accepts 125 V and 250 V NEMA plug types. Based only by appearance and that the assumption receptacle can accept NEMA 5-15P, an quick and dirty analysis of potentially compatible NEMA configured plugs is presented below. 1-15P (ungrounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit) 2-15P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; will fit) 2-20P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit) 5-15P (grounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit) 5-20P (grounded, 125 V, 20 A; will fit) 6-15P (grounded, 250 V, 15 A; will fit) 6-20P (grounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit)) Peter Tarver -Original Message- From: John Allen mailto:[mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:11 To: 'Peter Tarver'; mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle Peter Whilst the link to the UL press release works, the follow-on links to the actual photos do not appear to. John Allen W.London, UK. -Original Message- From: mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org mailto:[mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver Sent: 06 May 2013 17:56 To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet) http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially- http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially- Hazardous-Receptacl e.aspx I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box). The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets. Regards, Peter L. Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - --- - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user- http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user- guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com dhe...@gmail.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6302 - Release Date: 05/06/13 This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use,
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
From: Pete Perkins Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:48 snip I already have a mixed line voltage and USB wallplate adaptor that is very handy. What voltages are mixed in your cover plate or are you referring only to line voltage and USB/SELV? Since small device SMPS for USB charging are quite small these days, I must assume the cover plate USB power source has the SMPS built into it. For this scenario, it's readily conceivable that adding this functionality could be safely accomplished. I did a quick search on UL's database and found three companies with Combination tamper resistant receptacle with USB outlets in their listings for outlets. In such cases, I suspect the USB portion requires no field wiring and that the USB portion replaces one outlet from a duplex configured device. Is this accurate? Regards, Peter Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
OTOH, I think the more general issue is all the other equipment (domestic appliances, etc.) which is not capable of operating on both voltage ranges - that could really be a safety issue in many cases. John Allen W. London, UK -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver Sent: 06 May 2013 22:04 To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle From: Pete Perkins Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:48 snip I already have a mixed line voltage and USB wallplate adaptor that is very handy. What voltages are mixed in your cover plate or are you referring only to line voltage and USB/SELV? Since small device SMPS for USB charging are quite small these days, I must assume the cover plate USB power source has the SMPS built into it. For this scenario, it's readily conceivable that adding this functionality could be safely accomplished. I did a quick search on UL's database and found three companies with Combination tamper resistant receptacle with USB outlets in their listings for outlets. In such cases, I suspect the USB portion requires no field wiring and that the USB portion replaces one outlet from a duplex configured device. Is this accurate? Regards, Peter Tarver This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: mailto:dhe...@gmail.com dhe...@gmail.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6303 - Release Date: 05/06/13 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Peter, You are absolutely correct in your description of the implementation of the combo power/USB outlet. The USB port is built in (actually 2 of them, and USB2 at that) but only one NEMA 15 outlet. And it is UL Listed (I wouldn't use it, of course, if it wasn't :)) It is designed with a single plug on the back and plugs directly into a duplex outlet and sets snug to the wall. No fuss, no mess. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
John, I agree with your comment in today's environment but the implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost every household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS. (Well maybe a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V and then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries using 115V.) Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new scenario should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less). The customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system voltage regulation requirement. Or maybe it won't be the power company controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally. Should be an interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits for the low end and better OV protection on the other. It looks like fun times are coming to a power system close to you. :) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety Engineer PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 fone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
