Re: CE-mark compliance
John We often come across large systems or machines where we ask the manufacturer for certification details for the components, they sometimes are unable to get much information from their suppliers, a common example is for transformers where it is unlikely that they have been tested, except as an end of line production test and are only supplied with a DOC. We do not accept these but are always asked. I am sorry to hear that you are leaving this forum. My feeling is that your input was extremely useful and it will be missed (where do you get the time to do the research, or is it all in your head). It is particularly useful to have somebody on standards committees to show us all how it works. Regards Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 I read in !emc-pstc that i...@uk.tuv.com wrote (in OF47447D6C.F0A6BF4C- on80256b05.00425...@jpn.tuv.com) about 'CE-mark compliance', on Thu, 15 Nov 2001: Test houses generally do not accept a Declaration of Conformity for any product unless further proof is available in the form of acceptable test results (from a 3rd party laboratory or approved in-house laboratory). There is normally no reason for a test house to be asked to 'accept' a DOC, unless the manufacturer commissions it to use the DOC to support a claim of conformity to some other requirements, such as Australian. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CE-mark compliance
I read in !emc-pstc that i...@uk.tuv.com wrote (in OF47447D6C.F0A6BF4C- on80256b05.00425...@jpn.tuv.com) about 'CE-mark compliance', on Thu, 15 Nov 2001: Test houses generally do not accept a Declaration of Conformity for any product unless further proof is available in the form of acceptable test results (from a 3rd party laboratory or approved in-house laboratory). There is normally no reason for a test house to be asked to 'accept' a DOC, unless the manufacturer commissions it to use the DOC to support a claim of conformity to some other requirements, such as Australian. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CE-mark compliance
Look in the archives of this discussion forum and you will see instances of occassions where no testing has been conducted. Test houses generally do not accept a Declaration of Conformity for any product unless further proof is available in the form of acceptable test results (from a 3rd party laboratory or approved in-house laboratory). This is not because they want more testing and more money but because it is well known that the CE marking process is abused by a large number of companies to different degrees. It is not uncommon for products to have a CE label attached but no documentation at all and these products are frequently found to be unsafe or to not comply with the EMC Directive. Some companies do the minimum possible i.e. make a quick assessment (not necessarily by a knowledgable person) and write a Declaration of conformity, other companies will do more in house testing, for example, hi-pot, leakage current and earth bond. Some companies employ safety engineers to perform testing and others use external test houses. For EMC it is more likely that nothing has been done as a large number of companies know that they will only get caught if their equipment is causing serious interference. There is a sliding scale of testing that companies do, at one end nothing is done, costs are low and risks are high, at the other end full third party testing is conducted therefore costs are high but risks are low. It is up to buyers to decide where they want their end product to lie on that scale and to buy from companies that are at a similar position or better. They should request documentation to ensure that the equipment is suitably assessed to that level of risk. Some years ago before most of us knew what EMC meant, I came across a company that did not employ a safety engineer and did not use a test lab at all since it was cheaper to employ a lawyer with the knowledge to get them off any charges if their equipment was found to be unsafe! My advice, decide on your level of risk and choose your suppliers carefully. Glenn Moffat TUV International UK Tel: +44 121 634 8000 Fax: +44 121 634 8080 Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CE-mark compliance
Amund: In answer to your question, I would cite the words of President Ronald Reagan, quoting Chairman Gorbachev, quoting V.I. Lenin: Doveryay, no proveryay. - Trust, but verify. Regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: am...@westin-emission.no To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: CE-mark compliance | | Hi all, | | Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own | facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. | | From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like | Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant | requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not | generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the | products without any tests or with a very limited test process. | | Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big | manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance | with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only | trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only | based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? | | What is your opinion? | | Best regards | Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway | | | | --- | This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety | Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. | | Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ | | To cancel your subscription, send mail to: | majord...@ieee.org | with the single line: | unsubscribe emc-pstc | | For help, send mail to the list administrators: | Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org | Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net | | For policy questions, send mail to: | Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org | Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org | | All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: | No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
SV: CE-mark compliance
John, I mean the CE mark + DoC. From my point of view, I'd like to see some test reports or other relevant documentation. But I'm now talking about standalone products build-in for commercial systems. I think I will accept the CE mark next time I buy an electric shaver. Guess Philips won't spend time sending me the test report Amund -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Allen, John [mailto:john.al...@uk.thalesgroup.com] Sendt: 14. november 2001 18:43 Til: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: RE: CE-mark compliance Amund Do you mean just the CE Mark, or the CE Mark accompanied by the appropriate DoC? Here is a an example of what can happen if you accept the Mark on its own, A few years ago, in a well-publised legal case in the UK, a PC reseller had his own badge placed on the equipment. However, when tested for the Trading Standards Office (local government enforcers!) the PC failed various EMC tests. The PC reseller was successfully prosecuted for non-compliance with the EMC Directive because he had asked for - but not obtained - the DoC from the actual manufacturer. The main the reason for the successful conviction was that he had not exercised due dilegence in obtaining the correct supporting documentation. (The manufacturer was also successfully prosecuted as well!) Therefore I would never trust the CE Mark on its own without appropriate supporting documentation - but the latter may, or may not, be a full technical report from the supplier. However, in my view, if the equipment is badged as yours, or is incorporated in your own equipment, then you should get the appropriate full reports. John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division Bracknell, UK. -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: 14 November 2001 14:46 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE-mark compliance Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
SV: CE-mark compliance
John, I won't take any risk at all I mean, as long as you verify test reports for standalone units and also check up with possible addition hardware requirements if the unit shall be incorporated to a larger system, I think we have done as much as you can expect. The next step would be to test the complete system. Amund -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: John Juhasz [mailto:jjuh...@fiberoptions.com] Sendt: 14. november 2001 16:59 Til: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: RE: CE-mark compliance In the past I had been involved with integration of standalone products into a larger system. Ultimately my larger system would be required to be tested, and I would want it to pass. As the customer who would integrate production quantities of the standalone, I asked for the report. Those that tested their products sent it - those that didn't . . . lost a sale. In that manner, I reduced the possibility of integrating a product which could create failure that I would have to deal with. I suppose the question would be - what is acceptable risk for you? John Juhasz -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:46 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE-mark compliance Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: CE-mark compliance
I read in !emc-pstc that am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in LFENJLPMMJB mhpeibnilieagcbaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'CE-mark compliance', on Wed, 14 Nov 2001: Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. There is no *requirement* to test under the LVD and EMC Directives. All that is required is that the Declaration of Conformity (DOC) is true. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. No tests, or limited tests, may often be sufficient. You do not need to do EMC tests on a resistive heating product that has no thermostat. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Your technical file would be incomplete without at least a copy of the DOC from the supplier. But suppliers are under no obligation to release test results and normally regard them as commercially confidential. Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? No, that would not be prudent. You would have no evidence to prove 'due diligence' - that you made sure in advance that you could demonstrate the truth of your DOC. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CE-mark compliance
Amund Do you mean just the CE Mark, or the CE Mark accompanied by the appropriate DoC? Here is a an example of what can happen if you accept the Mark on its own, A few years ago, in a well-publised legal case in the UK, a PC reseller had his own badge placed on the equipment. However, when tested for the Trading Standards Office (local government enforcers!) the PC failed various EMC tests. The PC reseller was successfully prosecuted for non-compliance with the EMC Directive because he had asked for - but not obtained - the DoC from the actual manufacturer. The main the reason for the successful conviction was that he had not exercised due dilegence in obtaining the correct supporting documentation. (The manufacturer was also successfully prosecuted as well!) Therefore I would never trust the CE Mark on its own without appropriate supporting documentation - but the latter may, or may not, be a full technical report from the supplier. However, in my view, if the equipment is badged as yours, or is incorporated in your own equipment, then you should get the appropriate full reports. John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division Bracknell, UK. -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: 14 November 2001 14:46 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE-mark compliance Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: CE-mark compliance
In the past I had been involved with integration of standalone products into a larger system. Ultimately my larger system would be required to be tested, and I would want it to pass. As the customer who would integrate production quantities of the standalone, I asked for the report. Those that tested their products sent it - those that didn't . . . lost a sale. In that manner, I reduced the possibility of integrating a product which could create failure that I would have to deal with. I suppose the question would be - what is acceptable risk for you? John Juhasz -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:46 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE-mark compliance Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
CE-mark compliance
Hi all, Do all manufactures fulfill the EU-directives with testing in their own facilities or by an independent test lab? I guess the answer must be No. From my time working in a test lab, my experience is that big companies like Alcatel, Siemens and so on, do the required testing according to relevant requirements. I also got the feeling that small companies (I do not generalize) where a bit laid-back and often put the CE-mark into the products without any tests or with a very limited test process. Should a system builder trust a Declaration of Conformity from a big manufacturer, without asking for test reports in order to verify compliance with relevant directives ? Would you sleep well at night, if you only trusted the CE-mark 100% and build a large broadband telecom system only based on the CE-mark without any further documentation? What is your opinion? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
