Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-13 Thread Kunde, Brian 
Wow! This antenna is crazy!! I didn’t even know they made ones like this.  It 
is something to consider for sure.

I have looked at all the antennas people have recommended off-line. Right now, 
I’m favoring the Schwarzbeck VULP 9118 E (not the Special w/folded elements).  
This has good gain through its frequency range and almost 6dBi at 80Mhz.  If 
these numbers are correct, this should be a huge improvement over our current 
20 year old dipole array.

One concern I have with this antenna is the elements are quite long (over-all 
width or 76.4 inches). Mounted 1.5 meters off the floor and in the vertical 
position the longest element is only about 24 inches from the ground floor. Is 
this a concern?

Alternately, Schwarzbeck makes a “Special” version of this antenna where the 
longest elements are “folded” which reduces the over-all width of the antenna 
to only 55 inches.  However, I lose about 0.5dBi in gain at 80Mhz.

So which is more important?  A little gain or keeping the elements away from 
the ground floor?

I appreciate all who have commented on this topic so far. It has been quite the 
learning experience for me. Antenna Theory was the class I struggled with the 
most in college. Who would guess someday I would end up being an RF Test/design 
engineer??

Thanks to all.

The Other Brian

From: Grace Lin [mailto:graceli...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 11:09 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

I used this antenna (or similar) years ago in a 3m full compliant chamber.  It 
was part of a 61000-4-3 10V turnkey system.  From my memory, the power 
amplifier for the low end was 250W.

Please note the physical sizes of the antenna 
(http://schwarzbeck.de/Datenblatt/k9129.pdf).

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gray, David 
<dg...@tuvam.com<mailto:dg...@tuvam.com>> wrote:
Hi, has anyone tried the Schwarzbeck model STLP 9129?

Thanks
David

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian 
[mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com<mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity 
test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge 
horn above 1Ghz).

Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us good 
gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt amplifier.

I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough gain 
at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna 
requires a 200 watt amp.

Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't 
want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are nearly 
2 meters long.

Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much power 
do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without clipping??

Thanks,

The Other Brian




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Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-12 Thread Grace Lin 
I used this antenna (or similar) years ago in a 3m full compliant chamber.
It was part of a 61000-4-3 10V turnkey system.  From my memory, the power
amplifier for the low end was 250W.

Please note the physical sizes of the antenna (
http://schwarzbeck.de/Datenblatt/k9129.pdf).

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gray, David  wrote:

> Hi, has anyone tried the Schwarzbeck model STLP 9129?
>
> Thanks
> David
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
>
> I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated
> Immunity test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a
> dual ridge horn above 1Ghz).
>
> Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us
> good gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt
> amplifier.
>
> I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough
> gain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of
> antenna requires a 200 watt amp.
>
> Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we
> don't want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these
> are nearly 2 meters long.
>
> Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much
> power do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without
> clipping??
>
> Thanks,
>
> The Other Brian
>
>
> 
>
> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
> by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
>
> -
> 
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> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
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>
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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>
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Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread Heckrotte, Michael 
Many years ago I used a 3109XP for testing powered wheelchairs, needed 30 V/m 
down to 26 MHz. This antenna worked well up to 80/100 MHz or so, and does even 
better in a small chamber where the tips couple strongly to the walls (the 
antenna current increases and the impedances are such that the field strength 
at a 3 meter distance increased as well). This was successful with a 500 
watt-rated IFI tube amp (which actually put out ~1.2 kW in the 20-80 MHz range).

>From 80-1000 MHz, Ghery's point is well taken.

For Immunity you don't need a calibrated antenna, the calibration is based on 
the isotropic probe in the uniform plane.

Best Regards,
Mike


-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 3:21 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

ETS/Lindgren shows two biconicals they claim will do 10 V/m with the headroom 
required for 80% AM with 100 Watts input: the 3109, and the 3109XP.
Not plugging ETS/Lindgren, just giving examples.

I think part of the problem with hybrid biconical-logperiodics is that the 
antenna is very deep, so that if the tip of the logperiodic is 3 meters from 
the uniform field area (UFA), then the low frequency portion is close to 5 
meters away. One way to fix that is to turn the antenna around, but if you are 
going to that trouble, you might as well have two different antennas, both 
optimized for their respective frequency ranges.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: Doug Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
> Reply-To: <d...@emcesd.com>
> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:06:51 -0800
> To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
>
> How about having an Amateur Radio Operator design an antenna optimized
> for the lower frequencies? Or design one, one's self. Then calibrate
> it against a known antenna. Should not be difficult.
>
> Doug
> University of Oxford
> Department for Continuing Education
> Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
> --
> Doug Smith
> P.O. Box 60941
> Boulder City, NV 89006-0941
> TEL/FAX: 702-570-6108/570-6013
> Mobile: 408-858-4528
> Email: d...@dsmith.org
> Web: http://www.dsmith.org
> --
>
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:44:07 -0800, "Ghery S. Pettit"
> <n6...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Talk to the antenna vendors. 20 V/m with 100 Watts is going to be tough.
>>
>> Ghery Pettit
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Friday,
>> January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
>>
>> I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated
>> Immunity test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we
>> use a dual ridge horn above 1Ghz).
>>
>> Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give
>> us good gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100
>> watt amplifier.
>>
>> I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have
>> enough gain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this
>> type of antenna requires a 200 watt amp.
>>
>> Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we
>> don't want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of
>> these are nearly 2 meters long.
>>
>> Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how
>> much power do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation
>> without clipping??
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> The Other Brian
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
>> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received
>> this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
>>
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>> e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org>
>>
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
>> site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for
>> graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>
>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.h

Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread Ken Wyatt 
Just move the antenna in to a 1m test distance!  :-)

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
help!

Kenneth Wyatt
Wyatt Technical Services LLC
56 Aspen Dr.
Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Email Me!  | Web Site 
 | Blog 
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Subscribe to Newsletter 
Connect with me on LinkedIn 
> On Jan 8, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Ghery S. Pettit  wrote:
> 
> Talk to the antenna vendors.  20 V/m with 100 Watts is going to be tough.
> 
> Ghery Pettit
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
> 
> I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity
> test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge
> horn above 1Ghz).
> 
> Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us
> good gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt
> amplifier.
> 
> I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough
> gain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna
> requires a 200 watt amp.
> 
> Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't
> want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are
> nearly 2 meters long.
> 
> Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much
> power do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without
> clipping??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
> by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> Mike Cantwell 
> 
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Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread Doug Smith 
How about having an Amateur Radio Operator design an antenna optimized 
for the lower frequencies? Or design one, one's self. Then calibrate it 
against a known antenna. Should not be difficult. 


Doug
University of Oxford
Department for Continuing Education
Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
--
Doug Smith
P.O. Box 60941
Boulder City, NV 89006-0941
TEL/FAX: 702-570-6108/570-6013
Mobile: 408-858-4528
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Web: http://www.dsmith.org
--

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:44:07 -0800, "Ghery S. Pettit" 
 wrote:
Talk to the antenna vendors. 20 V/m with 100 Watts is going to be tough. 


Ghery Pettit

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Friday, 
January 08, 2016 12:33 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity
test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge
horn above 1Ghz). 


Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us
good gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt
amplifier. 


I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough
gain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna
requires a 200 watt amp. 


Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't
want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are
nearly 2 meters long. 


Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much
power do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without
clipping??

Thanks,

The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc. 


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: 
David Heald: 

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e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
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Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald:

Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread Ken Javor 
ETS/Lindgren shows two biconicals they claim will do 10 V/m with the
headroom required for 80% AM with 100 Watts input: the 3109, and the 3109XP.
Not plugging ETS/Lindgren, just giving examples.

I think part of the problem with hybrid biconical-logperiodics is that the
antenna is very deep, so that if the tip of the logperiodic is 3 meters from
the uniform field area (UFA), then the low frequency portion is close to 5
meters away. One way to fix that is to turn the antenna around, but if you
are going to that trouble, you might as well have two different antennas,
both optimized for their respective frequency ranges.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


> From: Doug Smith <d...@emcesd.com>
> Reply-To: <d...@emcesd.com>
> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 15:06:51 -0800
> To: <EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
> 
> How about having an Amateur Radio Operator design an antenna optimized
> for the lower frequencies? Or design one, one's self. Then calibrate it
> against a known antenna. Should not be difficult.
> 
> Doug
> University of Oxford
> Department for Continuing Education
> Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
> --
> Doug Smith
> P.O. Box 60941
> Boulder City, NV 89006-0941
> TEL/FAX: 702-570-6108/570-6013
> Mobile: 408-858-4528
> Email: d...@dsmith.org
> Web: http://www.dsmith.org
> --
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 14:44:07 -0800, "Ghery S. Pettit"
> <n6...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Talk to the antenna vendors. 20 V/m with 100 Watts is going to be tough.
>> 
>> Ghery Pettit
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Friday,
>> January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3
>> 
>> I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity
>> test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge
>> horn above 1Ghz).
>> 
>> Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us
>> good gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt
>> amplifier. 
>> 
>> I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough
>> gain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna
>> requires a 200 watt amp.
>> 
>> Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't
>> want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are
>> nearly 2 meters long.
>> 
>> Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much
>> power do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without
>> clipping??
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> The Other Brian
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
>> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
>> by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
>> 
>> -
>> 
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>> 
>> Attachment

Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread Gray, David 
Hi, has anyone tried the Schwarzbeck model STLP 9129?

Thanks
David

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity 
test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge 
horn above 1Ghz).

Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us good 
gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt amplifier.

I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough gain 
at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna 
requires a 200 watt amp.

Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't 
want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are nearly 
2 meters long.

Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much power 
do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without clipping??

Thanks,

The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
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Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread Ghery S. Pettit 
Talk to the antenna vendors.  20 V/m with 100 Watts is going to be tough.

Ghery Pettit

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:33 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity
test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge
horn above 1Ghz).

Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us
good gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt
amplifier.

I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough
gain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna
requires a 200 watt amp.

Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't
want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are
nearly 2 meters long.

Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much
power do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without
clipping??

Thanks,

The Other Brian




LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


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Re: [PSES] Best antenna for IEC 61000-4-3

2016-01-08 Thread T.Sato 
Did you take a look at AR's "bent element" LPDAs such as ATR80M6G?
http://www.ar-amps.com/html/find-it-fast-antennas.asp


On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 20:32:58,
  "Kunde, Brian"  worte:

> I'm looking for suggestions on the best antenna to use for Radiated Immunity
 test according to IEC 61000-4-3 between 80Mhz and 1Ghz. (we use a dual ridge 
horn above 1Ghz).
>
> Our goal is to find an antenna which is not too large, yet, will give us goo
d gain at the low end so we can generate 18-20V/m with a 100 watt amplifier.
>
> I've looked at the hybrid antennas and they just don't seem to have enough g
ain at the low end. It appears that most labs that use this type of antenna re
quires a 200 watt amp.
>
> Looks like a Log Periodic has much better gain and should work but we don't 
want the radials to get too close to the floor. Plus, some of these are nearly
 2 meters long.
>
> Any suggestions or recommendations? What antenna do you use and how much pow
er do you required to achieve 10V/m with 80% AM modulation without clipping??

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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