Wiring question
I have been asked to evaluate a radio transmitter system with an ITE interface. I have no experience with wiring and codes. The designer wants to take single phase 120/230 Vac primary and connect it to a circular MIL connector on a panel. From the panel, he wants to run a 1.5km shielded outdoor cable, MIL connecter to MIL connector, to a second location, to another panel MIL connector. The design should be accepable in both USA and Europe. Assuming that - both locations are properly grounded, - the wire is properly rated for outdoors, for voltage and current, - there is sufficient clearance on the connectors, - this is in a restricted access area; What issues are involved? Can he use the shield to carry the ground or does he need a separate internal ground wire? Your input is much appreciated. Thanks, Dave David Gelfand Conformity Specialist Kontron Canada Inc. 616 Curé Boivin Boisbriand QC Canada J7G 2A7 450 437 5682 x2449 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Wiring question
Hello David, With respect to U.S. requirements; You may be hard put to find a suitable MIL connector with a NRTL approval - which is generally required on components connected to primary wiring. In my experience, the same can be said for MIL wire. You can always submit the connectors or wire for NRTL 'approval' but that is both time-consuming and expensive - with no guarantee of a successful outcome. Best regards, Art Michael, Webmaster of the Safety Link -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | http://www.safetylink.com/ | || | The Safety Link is the most comprehensive collection | | of product safety and standards resources on the WEB. | | Nearly one million visitors can't be wrong! | || | http://www.safetylink.com/ | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- == On Wed, 7 May 2008, Gelfand, David wrote: I have been asked to evaluate a radio transmitter system with an ITE interface. I have no experience with wiring and codes. The designer wants to take single phase 120/230 Vac primary and connect it to a circular MIL connector on a panel. From the panel, he wants to run a 1.5km shielded outdoor cable, MIL connecter to MIL connector, to a second location, to another panel MIL connector. The design should be accepable in both USA and Europe. Assuming that - both locations are properly grounded, - the wire is properly rated for outdoors, for voltage and current, - there is sufficient clearance on the connectors, - this is in a restricted access area; What issues are involved? Can he use the shield to carry the ground or does he need a separate internal ground wire? Your input is much appreciated. Thanks, Dave David Gelfand Conformity Specialist Kontron Canada Inc. 616 Curé Boivin Boisbriand QC Canada J7G 2A7 450 437 5682 x2449 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: European wiring question
I read in !emc-pstc that Matthias Weingart i...@pentax.boerde.de wrote (in 20040525110156.b15...@pentax.boerde.de) about 'European wiring question' on Tue, 25 May 2004: I am sure UK-boxes are different ;-). I think harmonisation in the field of electric power at the mechanical level will take some hundred years. Yes, probably the hundred years between 3000 and 3100.(;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. The good news is that nothing is compulsory. The bad news is that everything is prohibited. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
Thanks: European wiring question
My thanks to the many of you who responded with useful and interesting information. It seems to me, based on the responses and on my wife's observations, that some European lighting manufacturers have not fully incorporated the details of US (and I believe, Canadian) electrical wiring installations into their designs. I have little doubt, having been in industry and seen widespread ignorance and disregard for details, that US manufacturers are equally guilty with regard to European installations. There is certainly a cautionary tale embedded in my simple question. Regards, Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org
RE: European wiring question
-Original Message- From: Matthias Weingart [mailto:i...@pentax.boerde.de] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:25 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: European wiring question On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 10:08:37AM +0100, John Allen wrote: Thanks for the info - but I am probably not the only one who is a little confused as to which of the boxes shown are used in CEILINGS to support light fittings. Can you point out those used for this purpose? I am not a electrical craftman, but what I usually see is, that the pure cables are hanging down from the ceiling. Often there is no hidden box. The clamps were hidden in the case of the lamp or a small box arround the cable. Often the ceilings are made from concrete. It is impossible to hide a box there (but the simple drilling for the cable is no problem). However it is possible to use in-wall-boxes as like here: http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/unterputzmaterial.htm The first ones are used in brick walls (but this is no longer officially accepted here), the latter orange ones in walls made of gypsum. Often the ceiling is taken down and you have a taken down ceiling made of gypsum or a construction made from wood. The lamps are integrated in the ceiling and the cables are between the taken down ceiling and the original ceiling. (I hope you understand :-). If this link does not work look for Decken Gipsplattendecken http://www.knauf.de/html/produkte/menue.php?lang=0lid=1|19|24|25# I think you should ask your question in the usenet newsgroup news:de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik (you can post in english). I am not a specialist. M. I'm not an expert on this, but I believe that ceiling boxes can not be made of plastic in the USA. The reason for this is that American construction often provides a simple (cheaper) lighting fixture hung from the box, but consumers often hang much heavier chandeliers, ceiling fans or large lighting fixtures when remodeling. The weight (and vibration) can cause the standard 8-32 box screws to pull out of the plastic box and dangerously drop the heavy fixture. I think the NEC also calls for the metal boxes to be firmly attached to the ceiling rafters (typically 2x4s), not just supported by the ceiling plaster or drywall sheet. I imagine that the Europeans must have arrived at similar standards for ceiling fixture boxes. Regards, Ed Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Technician Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty
SV: European wiring question
Here in Sweden I believe the most common is this kind of box: http://www.elbutik.se/group.htm?category_id=4826 It may be hidden in concrete or inside a wooden ceiling construction. Together with this kind of cover, with electrical plug, with or without mechanical support. http://www.elbutik.se/group.htm?category_id=2532 The boxes are connected together with plastic tubing flexible or rigid. http://www.elbutik.se/group.htm?category_id=1919 /Janne Fran: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]For Matthias Weingart Skickat: den 25 maj 2004 14:25 Till: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Amne: Re: European wiring question On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 10:08:37AM +0100, John Allen wrote: Thanks for the info - but I am probably not the only one who is a little confused as to which of the boxes shown are used in CEILINGS to support light fittings. Can you point out those used for this purpose? I am not a electrical craftman, but what I usually see is, that the pure cables are hanging down from the ceiling. Often there is no hidden box. The clamps were hidden in the case of the lamp or a small box arround the cable. Often the ceilings are made from concrete. It is impossible to hide a box there (but the simple drilling for the cable is no problem). However it is possible to use in-wall-boxes as like here: http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/unterputzmaterial.htm The first ones are used in brick walls (but this is no longer officially accepted here), the latter orange ones in walls made of gypsum. Often the ceiling is taken down and you have a taken down ceiling made of gypsum or a construction made from wood. The lamps are integrated in the ceiling and the cables are between the taken down ceiling and the original ceiling. (I hope you understand :-). If this link does not work look for Decken Gipsplattendecken http://www.knauf.de/html/produkte/menue.php?lang=0lid=1|19|24|25# I think you should ask your question in the usenet newsgroup news:de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik (you can post in english). I am not a specialist. M.
Re: European wiring question
On Tue, May 25, 2004 at 10:08:37AM +0100, John Allen wrote: Thanks for the info - but I am probably not the only one who is a little confused as to which of the boxes shown are used in CEILINGS to support light fittings. Can you point out those used for this purpose? I am not a electrical craftman, but what I usually see is, that the pure cables are hanging down from the ceiling. Often there is no hidden box. The clamps were hidden in the case of the lamp or a small box arround the cable. Often the ceilings are made from concrete. It is impossible to hide a box there (but the simple drilling for the cable is no problem). However it is possible to use in-wall-boxes as like here: http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/unterputzmaterial.htm The first ones are used in brick walls (but this is no longer officially accepted here), the latter orange ones in walls made of gypsum. Often the ceiling is taken down and you have a taken down ceiling made of gypsum or a construction made from wood. The lamps are integrated in the ceiling and the cables are between the taken down ceiling and the original ceiling. (I hope you understand :-). If this link does not work look for Decken Gipsplattendecken http://www.knauf.de/html/produkte/menue.php?lang=0lid=1|19|24|25# I think you should ask your question in the usenet newsgroup news:de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik (you can post in english). I am not a specialist. M.
RE: European wiring question
Matthias Thanks for the info - but I am probably not the only one who is a little confused as to which of the boxes shown are used in CEILINGS to support light fittings. Can you point out those used for this purpose? Thanks John Allen -Original Message- From: Matthias Weingart [ mailto:i...@pentax.boerde.de] Sent: 25 May 2004 10:02 To: Neil Helsby Cc: Jacob Schanker; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: European wiring question Take a look at this german shop for commonly used wiring boxes in Germany: http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/a fputzmaterial_aufputzmaterial_allgemein.htm I am sure UK-boxes are different ;-). I think harmonisation in the field of electric power at the mechanical level will take some hundred years. M. _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com ** Copyright ERA Technology Ltd. 2004. (www.era.co.uk). All rights reserved. The information supplied in this Commercial Communication should be treated in confidence. No liability whatsoever is accepted for any loss or damage suffered as a result of accessing this message or any attachments. ** _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com
Re: European wiring question
Take a look at this german shop for commonly used wiring boxes in Germany: http://www.elektrofachmarkt-online.de/a fputzmaterial_aufputzmaterial_allgemein.htm I am sure UK-boxes are different ;-). I think harmonisation in the field of electric power at the mechanical level will take some hundred years. M.
Re: European wiring question
Original Message On 24/05/2004, 22:21:27, Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote regarding European wiring question: This question is slightly off the usual for this list (although there *are* safety implications), but I am hoping that EU list members can answer it. When installing hanging overhead light fixtures to a junction box in the ceiling, there is a canopy or bezel that fits against the ceiling and covers the junction box - both for safety and for appearances. My wife has noted that fixtures made in the USA or in Asia, have canopies that adequately cover the junction box opening. However, lighting fixtures made in the EU (usually Germany) have smaller diameter canopies which make fully covering the US junction boxes difficult, although possible. She conjectured that the European junction boxes must be smaller than the typical US boxes, which are commonly 4 inches square (that's about 10.1 cm square). What might be the typical size of European electrical wiring junction boxes? They are generally round and have diameters of about 83 mm. Fixing centres seem to be standard at 50.8 mm (wonder what that might be in inches!). A common depth is 35 mm. Regards, Neil Helsby ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses and is believed to be clean. **
European wiring question
This question is slightly off the usual for this list (although there *are* safety implications), but I am hoping that EU list members can answer it. When installing hanging overhead light fixtures to a junction box in the ceiling, there is a canopy or bezel that fits against the ceiling and covers the junction box - both for safety and for appearances. My wife has noted that fixtures made in the USA or in Asia, have canopies that adequately cover the junction box opening. However, lighting fixtures made in the EU (usually Germany) have smaller diameter canopies which make fully covering the US junction boxes difficult, although possible. She conjectured that the European junction boxes must be smaller than the typical US boxes, which are commonly 4 inches square (that's about 10.1 cm square). What might be the typical size of European electrical wiring junction boxes? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org
RE: NEC Wiring Question
The requirement Dan refers to below is still present in the 2002 NEC 300.15. Regards, Kaz Gawrzyjal Dell Computer Corp. -Original Message- From: Dan Teninty - DTEC Associates [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 2:57 PM To: Michael Taylor; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: NEC Wiring Question Michael, The 1996 version of the NEC addresses this issue by saying that if a connector is not specifically listed for an application, it is not OK. The reference is: 300-15(c) - Fittings Connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed. IMHO, this means that unless the device, connector, terminal is specifically listed for use with multiple wires of different sizes in the same hole, then it is not allowed. At Fluke, when I was working with IEC 61010 and UL 3111, our standard practice was that one terminal location could have one wire. Connector and terminal block manufacturers make bridging or shorting bars to connect multiple terminals together. The rationale is that multiple wires in a terminal can work themselves loose over time and with stress. Best regards, Daniel E. Teninty, P.E. Managing Partner DTEC Associates LLC (509) 443-0215 (509) 443-0181 fax http://www.dtec-associates.com http://www.dtec-associates.com/ Streamlining The Compliance Process While Advancing New Products To Market This email transmission is confidential and intended for the addressee only. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the person or organization to whom it is addressed, you must not copy, distribute, or take any action in reliance upon it. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Michael Taylor Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 10:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: NEC Wiring Question Greetings all, An issue came up in a product 61010 safety evaluation and no one here can remember if you can / can't do it. Does anyone out in Cyberland know if the NEC allows 2 wires of different sizes (awg) to be clamped together in a clamping type PC mounted wiring terminal. The wire is striped bare inserted into a slot on the side of a terminal block that has a screw on top for tightening. I seem to remember the code does not allow wires of different gauges to be clamped together under a single compression clamping terminal. I have searched the NEC and can't find anything on this. Can anyone remember chapter verse on this issue. If I'm wrong, please be kind, the 60 hour weeks are getting to us. Thanks in advance Michael Taylor Colorado
RE: NEC Wiring Question
NEC Wiring QuestionMichael, The 1996 version of the NEC addresses this issue by saying that if a connector is not specifically listed for an application, it is not OK. The reference is: 300-15(c) - Fittings Connectors shall be used only with the specific wiring methods for which they are designed and listed. IMHO, this means that unless the device, connector, terminal is specifically listed for use with multiple wires of different sizes in the same hole, then it is not allowed. At Fluke, when I was working with IEC 61010 and UL 3111, our standard practice was that one terminal location could have one wire. Connector and terminal block manufacturers make bridging or shorting bars to connect multiple terminals together. The rationale is that multiple wires in a terminal can work themselves loose over time and with stress. Best regards, Daniel E. Teninty, P.E. Managing Partner DTEC Associates LLC (509) 443-0215 (509) 443-0181 fax http://www.dtec-associates.com Streamlining The Compliance Process While Advancing New Products To Market This email transmission is confidential and intended for the addressee only. It may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the person or organization to whom it is addressed, you must not copy, distribute, or take any action in reliance upon it. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Michael Taylor Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 10:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: NEC Wiring Question Greetings all, An issue came up in a product 61010 safety evaluation and no one here can remember if you can / can't do it. Does anyone out in Cyberland know if the NEC allows 2 wires of different sizes (awg) to be clamped together in a clamping type PC mounted wiring terminal. The wire is striped bare inserted into a slot on the side of a terminal block that has a screw on top for tightening. I seem to remember the code does not allow wires of different gauges to be clamped together under a single compression clamping terminal. I have searched the NEC and can't find anything on this. Can anyone remember chapter verse on this issue. If I'm wrong, please be kind, the 60 hour weeks are getting to us. Thanks in advance Michael Taylor Colorado
Re: NEC Wiring Question
NEC Wiring QuestionIt would seem to me, withOUT searching the code, that the only restriction is that the overcurrent protection scheme provide the necessary protection for the smaller conductor. There may be some restrictions in other product specific standards. Rgds, Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA Tel ++1 251 981 6786 Fax ++1 251 981 3054 Cell ++1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Michael Taylor To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:14 Subject: NEC Wiring Question Greetings all, An issue came up in a product 61010 safety evaluation and no one here can remember if you can / can't do it. Does anyone out in Cyberland know if the NEC allows 2 wires of different sizes (awg) to be clamped together in a clamping type PC mounted wiring terminal. The wire is striped bare inserted into a slot on the side of a terminal block that has a screw on top for tightening. I seem to remember the code does not allow wires of different gauges to be clamped together under a single compression clamping terminal. I have searched the NEC and can't find anything on this. Can anyone remember chapter verse on this issue. If I'm wrong, please be kind, the 60 hour weeks are getting to us. Thanks in advance Michael Taylor Colorado
NEC Wiring Question
Greetings all, An issue came up in a product 61010 safety evaluation and no one here can remember if you can / can't do it. Does anyone out in Cyberland know if the NEC allows 2 wires of different sizes (awg) to be clamped together in a clamping type PC mounted wiring terminal. The wire is striped bare inserted into a slot on the side of a terminal block that has a screw on top for tightening. I seem to remember the code does not allow wires of different gauges to be clamped together under a single compression clamping terminal. I have searched the NEC and can't find anything on this. Can anyone remember chapter verse on this issue. If I'm wrong, please be kind, the 60 hour weeks are getting to us. Thanks in advance Michael Taylor Colorado
