Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread Gene Heskett
On Thursday 18 October 2007, Kirk Wallace wrote:
On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 00:17 -0400, Jim Coleman wrote:
 On 10/18/07, Jon Elson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Kirk Wallace wrote:
  Thanks again Jon and Chris. What should have been obvious

 turns

... snip

 interference sources like motor-VFD cables and any other that
 might have 120 or 240 VAC on them.

 Jon


 in my hitachi seiki manual, it says that twisted pair wire should be
 used for the encoders.  not sure if this would help eliminate noise in
 your situation or not.

I used the existing cable which has four shielded twisted pairs. I have
one pair for each A, B, I and power.

How about the ends of the shielding wrap at the machine?  They should be well 
grounded at the computer interface end and get as close as possible to the 
encoder, but should probably be isolated from the machine frame to avoid 
picking up noise or enabling a ground loop, which with variable phase angle 
thyristor speed controls on the spindle motor, can contain a lot of hf 
noises.  And if the encoder has a ground, can it be isolated from the machine 
and tied to one of the shields?  I'm thinking of the usual fiber or possibly 
nylon washers used for transistor isolation as a method of isolating the 
encoder pcb mounting from the machine frame.  The mica sheets for such aren't 
all that thick if the washer thickness might be a problem in maintaining the 
spacings.

A possible test to see if its VFD generated noise would be to see if it 
largely goes away when the motor is at full speed, and gets progressively 
worse as the speed is lowered.  It may get better when the motor is at creep 
speeds too depending on how much losses there are mechanically, and the VFD 
itself.  Some are thyristor based which would act like that, and some are 
basicly switching regulators driving dc motors, with the switching being done 
at several kilohertz.  Those types could get noisier as the speed goes up, or 
if a hand is laid on the chuck to load the motor and make it work harder.

Basically, look for a correlation between spindle speed and the extra noise 
pulses.  An oscilloscope with at least a 20 megahertz bandwidth can be 
handier than bottled beer for this sort of troubleshooting.

 also what about an inductor or capacitor at the encoder in its power
 line to help smooth any noise introduced there?

I have a short run between my encoder and a differential driver. I am
wondering about whether I should have some sort of filters on the high
impedance inputs of the driver. The thing is that with 50k pulses at
3,000 I'm not sure how much of a filter I could use.

This might be a good place to use a piece of that shielded cable too.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If God had not given us sticky tape, it would have been necessary to invent 
it.

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[Emc-users] Stepper - Following Error

2007-10-18 Thread Jan Van Gilsen
Hi,
I'm building a stepper configuration from 2 old floppy stepper motors,
and use quadrature signals to control them.
For the hal-configuration I started with the stepper_mm config and
modified it to output quadrature signals.

the steppers move when a jog in Axis, without following errors (even
at maximum jog speed),
but when I try a coordinated move (g0, g1) I get following errors...

I did read http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Following_Error
   and tried to change BASE_PERIOD, MAX_VELOCITY and MAX_ACCELERATION
with no effects (except for additional realtime errors when changing
base_period)

How do I get rid of these errors?
Is there anything else that has to be changed when using quadrature
instead of step/dir signals?

Thanks, Jan

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Re: [Emc-users] oversize transformer question

2007-10-18 Thread John Thornton
We picked up a free oversized transformer for our shop 3 phase and the inrush
would trip the breaker so it was useless to us.

John


On 17 Oct 2007 at 11:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Mark already said that the transformers are at least twice as
 big has he really needs.
 
 But they are free (other than shipping), so he's asking us what
 gotchas there might be in using an oversize transformer.
 
 As long as there aren't any technical issues, an oversize but
 free part often beats a right-sized but expensive one.  In this
 case however, I think inrush current is a significant technical
 issue.
 
 Regards,
 
 John Kasunich



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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread ben lipkowitz
if there is a ground loop somewhere in your setup, it won't conduct any 
current unless it's ... a loop! so when you disconnect the sensor, it 
breaks the circuit; no current is induced in the wires by stray magnetic 
fields, and you dont see any voltage.

if the noise were 'coming from the sensor' then you should see the noise 
with it hooked up in a different place, such as on a lab bench.

if your differential driver has *really* sensitive inputs, i suppose you 
could be picking up stray electric fields. this could easily be fixed with 
a pull-up resistor. but this wouldn't explain the noise going away when 
the encoder sensor is disconnected.


On Wed, 17 Oct 2007, Kirk Wallace wrote:

 When I was getting index pulses without an encoder disk installed, I
 decided to disconnect the index connections to see when the noise
 stopped. The noise stopped as soon as I disconnected the encoder sensor.
 So either the noise is coming from the sensor, or having the sensor
 connected promotes the noise. I am going to have to give this some
 thought in order to plan the next move.


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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread John Kasunich
Gene Heskett wrote:

 A possible test to see if its VFD generated noise would be to see if it 
 largely goes away when the motor is at full speed, and gets progressively 
 worse as the speed is lowered.  
 
 Basically, look for a correlation between spindle speed and the extra noise 
 pulses. 

A very easy way to see if the spindle drive is generating the noise is 
to run the spindle up to top speed and then cut the drive completely and 
let the spindle coast to a stop.  If the signals get beautiful as soon 
as you turn off the VFD, you know where the noise is coming from.  And 
if they don't, you know it's something other than the drive.

Regards,

John Kasunich

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Re: [Emc-users] oversize transformer question

2007-10-18 Thread John Kasunich
Jim Coleman wrote:
 i was thinking the light bulb idea when i read it, i remember reading an
 article on a homebuilt 1000 watt audio amp, he did that because of the
 inrush current tripping a breaker.  i was just wondering how many bulbs in
 parallel it would take to handle the current without blowing instantly?
 thinking of standard 100 watt incandescents.

If you have a 120V line and 120V bulbs, you don't have to worry about 
them blowing.  Even if the load looks like a dead short at turn on, the
lights never see more than 120V.

What the number of lights does change is the charge time.  Each bulb 
provides a certain amount of current.  More bulbs in parallel means more 
current and faster charging of the capacitors.  I think a single 100W 
lamp would be fine for the power levels we're talking about.

Regards,

John Kasunich

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Re: [Emc-users] oversize transformer question

2007-10-18 Thread rehenry


It should be possible to use a slightly higher current breaker or one with 
longer time delay for magnetic devices?  Failing that a knife switch with time 
delay fuses should handle the job.

Rayh


On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:06:15 -0500, Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net said:
We picked up a free oversized transformer for our shop 3 phase and the inrush
would trip the breaker so it was useless to us.

John


On 17 Oct 2007 at 11:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Mark already said that the transformers are at least twice as
 big has he really needs.
 
 But they are free (other than shipping), so he's asking us what
 gotchas there might be in using an oversize transformer.
 
 As long as there aren't any technical issues, an oversize but
 free part often beats a right-sized but expensive one.  In this
 case however, I think inrush current is a significant technical
 issue.
 
 Regards,
 
 John Kasunich



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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread Kirk Wallace
On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 09:38 -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
 Gene Heskett wrote:
 
  A possible test to see if its VFD generated noise would be to see if it 
  largely goes away when the motor is at full speed, and gets progressively 
  worse as the speed is lowered.  
  
  Basically, look for a correlation between spindle speed and the extra noise 
  pulses. 
 
 A very easy way to see if the spindle drive is generating the noise is 
 to run the spindle up to top speed and then cut the drive completely and 
 let the spindle coast to a stop.  If the signals get beautiful as soon 
 as you turn off the VFD, you know where the noise is coming from.  And 
 if they don't, you know it's something other than the drive.
 
 Regards,
 
 John Kasunich

Thanks for the tips. Here is another interesting link:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=196269page=5

I totally underestimated and overlooked the issues involved with VFD's.
I guess they aren't a simple plug and play kind of thing. I plan on
using allot more VFD's in the future and developing experience will not
only help now but in the future.
-- 
Kirk Wallace (California, USA
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ 
Hardinge HNC lathe
Bridgeport mill conversion pending
Zubal lathe conversion pending)


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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread Peter C. Wallace

Another possible trouble is that your motor frame is not grounded with a low 
impedance to earth ground. If this is the case, capacitance from motor 
windings to the motor frame will couple switching spikes from your VFD into 
your encoder via the motor shaft or encoder cover (metal covers make this 
effect worse)


Peter Wallace

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Re: [Emc-users] oversize transformer question

2007-10-18 Thread Jon Elson
John Thornton wrote:
 We picked up a free oversized transformer for our shop 3 phase and the inrush
 would trip the breaker so it was useless to us.
You could probably put light bulbs or reistors in series to 
magnetize the transformer core in sync with the line, then shunt 
the resistance out.  (Of course, this would not be a standard, 
off the shelf NEMA setup.)

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread Jon Elson
Kirk Wallace wrote:
 
 
 I used the existing cable which has four shielded twisted pairs. I have
 one pair for each A, B, I and power. 
 
Are the shields grounded at both ends?
 
also what about an inductor or capacitor at the encoder in its power
line to help smooth any noise introduced there?
 
I wouldn't.  Possibly adding a capacitor across +5 to ground 
might help.
 
 I have a short run between my encoder and a differential driver. I am
 wondering about whether I should have some sort of filters on the high
 impedance inputs of the driver. The thing is that with 50k pulses at
 3,000 I'm not sure how much of a filter I could use.
 

Is the differential driver module grounded to anything, like 
through mounting screws?  Check if the grounds of the encoder 
are grounded to the machine frame.  Since you have had the 
encoder all apart anyway, make sure it is NOT grounded to the 
machine.  If ungrounding it is really hard, then run a huge 
copper braid cable from the machine to the computer/controller 
grounds (not a bad idea anyway).

If you have a scope (not Halscope) look at the index signal all 
the way from the encoder itself, out of the diff driver, into 
the diff receiver and finally out of the diff receiver, to see 
where the noise is getting in.  If it is coming directly out of 
the encoder, possibly a small cap across the power input to the 
encoder will help.  Otherwise, maybe a better ground between the 
encoder and diff driver is needed so it doesn't see common-mode 
noise.

 From previous messages, I think you have 5000 counts/rev, not 50K.
3000 RPM is 50 Rev/sec, x 5K encoder pulses is 25 counts a 
second.  The quadrature frequency would be 1/4 that, or 62.5 
KHz.  So, a filter with about a 8 us cutoff would be pretty 
good.  The digital filtering I used on the A and B channels 
wasn't applicable to the Z channel since it doesn't have a 
predictable state progression, so it has less filtering, and is 
sampled every microsecond.  But, assuming your Z pulse is at 
least one quadrature count wide, then an 8 us filter might do a 
lot of good.

In your next mesaage, you said :
When I was getting index pulses without an encoder disk installed, I
decided to disconnect the index connections to see when the noise
stopped. The noise stopped as soon as I disconnected the encoder 
sensor.
So either the noise is coming from the sensor, or having the sensor
connected promotes the noise. I am going to have to give this some
thought in order to plan the next move.

This may suggest problems with the encoder, but could be 
common-mode noise on the encoder ground or noisy power to the 
encoder.  A simple R/C filter might be all that is needed. 
especially if the noise pulses are just a 100 ns wide or 
something, the filter should give perfect results.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread Jon Elson
John Kasunich wrote:
 Gene Heskett wrote:
 
 
A possible test to see if its VFD generated noise would be to see if it 
largely goes away when the motor is at full speed, and gets progressively 
worse as the speed is lowered.  

Basically, look for a correlation between spindle speed and the extra noise 
pulses. 
 
 
I doubt you'd see much difference.  The VFD switches 340 V 
pulses across the motor windings no matter whether it is at 1 Hz 
or 400 Hz.  Would it be because at high speed the motor is at 
greater load and the current is more in phase with the back EMF?
Or, would the noise be gtting worse with reduced on-time of the 
transistors?  I haven't had to play detective with VFD 
interference, so maybe it would really show such a 
characteristic, but I wouldn't have expected it.  (Might also be 
a difference between the BIG drives and motors you play with and 
the ones I have experience with.)
 A very easy way to see if the spindle drive is generating the noise is 
 to run the spindle up to top speed and then cut the drive completely and 
 let the spindle coast to a stop.
Now, this is an EXCELLENT idea!  You have to set up the VFD to 
not do any decelerating or braking, but that is usually a 
setting that can be done.


I did have some non-CNC interference from my mill's VFD, mostly 
to my computer monitor.  I put a Corcom-type line filter box on 
the line in to the VFD, and it solved the problem.

Jon
Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread Jon Elson
Kirk Wallace wrote:
 
 I totally underestimated and overlooked the issues involved with VFD's.
 I guess they aren't a simple plug and play kind of thing. I plan on
 using allot more VFD's in the future and developing experience will not
 only help now but in the future.

I'll be interested to hear what the outcome is.  They do produce 
a LOT of noise.  I had to filter the line input to my mill's 
VFD, it trashed the computer's video monitor.  (No harm, just a 
lot of artifacts on the screen, looked kind of like a chain-link 
fence.)  The line filter completely solved it.

Jon

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[Emc-users] Generating stick-font toolpaths?

2007-10-18 Thread Patrick Ferrick
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some open-source software for 
generating toolpaths for making signs. 

Apparently the preferred kind of font is called a stick font or 
single stroke font and I have found that there are quite a few 
commercial packages that do this.  We have been using QCAD's CAMExpert 
demo version (the full version of which is very reasonably priced) but 
both provide only one such font.

Thanks,
Pat

 
===
Patrick Ferrick
Town of Webb School
Main Street
Old Forge, NY  13420

(315) 369-3222  
(315) 369-6216 (fax)


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Re: [Emc-users] Threading Hickups

2007-10-18 Thread John Kasunich
Jon Elson wrote:
 
 I did have some non-CNC interference from my mill's VFD, mostly 
 to my computer monitor.  I put a Corcom-type line filter box on 
 the line in to the VFD, and it solved the problem.
 
 Jon

I had the same thing with the fractional HP VFD on my drill press.
It was only running a 1/2 HP three phase motor, but it put enough
interference back into the AC line that you couldn't use an AM radio
anywhere in the house.  During baseball season that was unacceptable.
A Corcom filter cleaned it right up.

Filtering gets a lot more complicated when you start talking about a
few HP, but for fractional HP, a 10A Corcom will do wonders for RF
interference.

Noise getting into encoder signals is NOT the same as AM radio 
interference.  Although a Corcom can't hurt, I would not expect it to 
help much with encoder noise.  That needs to be addressed by grounding,
shielding, and use of differential signals.

I seem to recall Kirk saying that he has a short run of single ended
signals between the encoder itself and the differential driver board.
That board should be as close as humanly possible to the encoder, and
its ground must be connected to the encoder ground.  Any stray currents
flowing in the grounds between the two items will result in noise.

Regards,

John Kasunich

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Re: [Emc-users] Generating stick-font toolpaths?

2007-10-18 Thread John Kasunich
Patrick Ferrick wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I was wondering if anyone could suggest some open-source software for 
 generating toolpaths for making signs. 
 
http://timeguy.com/cradek/truetype

Regards,

John Kasunich

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Re: [Emc-users] Generating stick-font toolpaths?

2007-10-18 Thread Andre' Blanchard
At 01:45 PM 10/18/2007, you wrote:
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some open-source software for
generating toolpaths for making signs.

Apparently the preferred kind of font is called a stick font or
single stroke font and I have found that there are quite a few
commercial packages that do this.  We have been using QCAD's CAMExpert
demo version (the full version of which is very reasonably priced) but
both provide only one such font.

Thanks,
Pat

If you have not found yet it here is a thread on the subject.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30438


I have in the past done a few characters in single stroke but had the Z 
changing so that when cut with a V cutter it would make an outline like 
character but be much faster to machine.  Never found (or much looked for) 
a program to do it for me, would be nice.

__
Andre' B.  Clear Lake, Wi.



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[Emc-users] Using Match8

2007-10-18 Thread John Thornton
I'm trying to learn how match8 works in a hal file. As I understand if the 
match8.x.b0 
is true and the match8.x.a0 is true then the match8.x.out should be true...

This the the hal file
# components
loadrt threads name1=partest_thread period1=100 
loadrt hal_parport cfg=0x0378
addf parport.0.read partest_thread 1 
loadrt match8 count=1

# signals and links for the match8 blocks
newsig true bit
sets true 1

# create signals for the 6-position
# jog-selector switch
newsig jogsel0 bit
newsig jogsel1 bit
newsig jogsel2 bit
# link jog-selector bits to hardware
linksp jogsel0 parport.0.pin-10-in
linksp jogsel1 parport.0.pin-11-in
linksp jogsel2 parport.0.pin-12-in


# determine if the jog-selector bits indicate
# an X-jog
# the match is if no pins are on

linksp true match8.0.in
newsig Xjogen bit
linksp Xjogen match8.0.out
newsig Xsel0 bit
newsig Xsel1 bit
newsig Xsel2 bit
newsig Xsel3 bit
newsig Xsel4 bit
newsig Xsel5 bit
newsig Xsel6 bit
newsig Xsel7 bit
sets Xsel0 1
sets Xsel1 0
sets Xsel2 0
sets Xsel3 0
sets Xsel4 0
sets Xsel5 0
sets Xsel6 0
sets Xsel7 0
linksp Xsel0 match8.0.b0
linksp Xsel1 match8.0.b1
linksp Xsel2 match8.0.b2
linksp Xsel3 match8.0.b3
linksp Xsel4 match8.0.b4
linksp Xsel5 match8.0.b5
linksp Xsel6 match8.0.b6
linksp Xsel7 match8.0.b7
linksp jogsel0 match8.0.a0
linksp jogsel1 match8.0.a1
linksp jogsel2 match8.0.a2


This is the results in the Terminal Window
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ halrun -I -f jog.hal
halcmd: start
halcmd: show pin
Component Pins:
Owner  Type  Dir Value  Name
 05bit   IN   TRUE  match8.0.a0 == jogsel0
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a1 == jogsel1
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a2 == jogsel2
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a3
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a4
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a5
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a6
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.a7
 05bit   IN   TRUE  match8.0.b0 == Xsel0
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b1 == Xsel1
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b2 == Xsel2
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b3 == Xsel3
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b4 == Xsel4
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b5 == Xsel5
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b6 == Xsel6
 05bit   IN  FALSE  match8.0.b7 == Xsel7
 05bit   IN   TRUE  match8.0.in == true
 05bit   OUT FALSE  match8.0.out == Xjogen
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-01-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-02-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-03-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-04-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-05-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-06-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-07-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-08-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-09-out
 04bit   OUT  TRUE  parport.0.pin-10-in == 
jogsel0
 04bit   OUT FALSE  parport.0.pin-10-in-not
 04bit   OUT FALSE  parport.0.pin-11-in == 
jogsel1
 04bit   OUT  TRUE  parport.0.pin-11-in-not
 04bit   OUT FALSE  parport.0.pin-12-in == 
jogsel2
 04bit   OUT  TRUE  parport.0.pin-12-in-not
 04bit   OUT FALSE  parport.0.pin-13-in
 04bit   OUT  TRUE  parport.0.pin-13-in-not
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-14-out
 04bit   OUT FALSE  parport.0.pin-15-in
 04bit   OUT  TRUE  parport.0.pin-15-in-not
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-16-out
 04bit   IN  FALSE  parport.0.pin-17-out

I have a true on match8.0.a0 and match8.0.b0 but the 
match8.0.out is false... What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
John


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Re: [Emc-users] Generating stick-font toolpaths?

2007-10-18 Thread ben lipkowitz
you could try autotrace with the -centerline option. it wouldn't give you 
the z-depth for different widths with a conical cutter, but it might look 
ok anyway.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Patrick Ferrick wrote:
 I was wondering if anyone could suggest some open-source software for
 generating toolpaths for making signs.

 Apparently the preferred kind of font is called a stick font or
 single stroke font and I have found that there are quite a few
 commercial packages that do this.  We have been using QCAD's CAMExpert
 demo version (the full version of which is very reasonably priced) but
 both provide only one such font.

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Re: [Emc-users] Generating stick-font toolpaths?

2007-10-18 Thread Jon Elson
John Kasunich wrote:
 Patrick Ferrick wrote:
 
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some open-source software for 
generating toolpaths for making signs. 

 
 http://timeguy.com/cradek/truetype
Well, at least the sample on the first page is not a stick 
font.  It has line width.  For simple engraving of nameplates 
and instrument panels, a font with zero width is faster to 
cut, it is always done with a single stroke of the cutting 
tool.  Bobcad has a built-in stick font, bot anything it creates 
from an external font has width.  Cutting these things on a 
low-RPM spindle machine like a mill is slow enough already 
without having to carve out the middle of the strokes.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Generating stick-font toolpaths?

2007-10-18 Thread Jon Elson
Patrick Ferrick wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I was wondering if anyone could suggest some open-source software for 
 generating toolpaths for making signs. 
 
 Apparently the preferred kind of font is called a stick font or 
 single stroke font and I have found that there are quite a few 
 commercial packages that do this.  We have been using QCAD's CAMExpert 
 demo version (the full version of which is very reasonably priced) but 
 both provide only one such font.
Bobcad provides a stick font, but I thought it was ugly, and 
so reverse engineered the file format and made some adjustments.
I haven't used it in a while, but it did work well.  If you can 
prove your ownership of Bobcad, I could make the changes 
available.  I can't just give it out to anybody, because it is 
copyrighted property of Bobcad.  I only fixed about 4 letters 
that looked bad.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Using Match8

2007-10-18 Thread Jeff Epler
You must addf match8.0 partest_thread or its outputs will never be
updated.

Jeff


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