Re: [Emc-users] Show a message from a hal pin

[Leslie Newell]

Hi Andy,

That is one of the reasons why I want to show a message. Low slideway 
lube will not estop the machine but will stop you starting a new part. 
Low hydraulic pressure or a spindle inverter fault will estop the machine.

Les


Andy Pugh wrote:
> 
> You might want to consider more than one level of problem (if you have
> the pins). For example, lube oil level probably shouldn't scrap a
> part, but then some errors most certainly should not scrap the
> mill/lathe
> 
> The current trend in automotive diagnostics is to log, report, flag
> and carry on.
> 

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Re: [Emc-users] Show a message from a hal pin

[Leslie Newell]

Hi Jeff,

Thaks for that. It should do what I want.

Les

Jeff Epler wrote:

> Perhaps you can find inspiration from
> http://media.unpythonic.net/emergent-files/sandbox/error.comp
> 
> Jeff
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Non-invoked Program Stop, Re: .ngc file RFReview

[Frank Tkalcevic]

> Thanks for the link, Frank. I wish I were better at 
> electronics, then I would know what this circuit does. It 
> looks like the op-amps only have a 10kOhm resistor on their 
> outputs, which would limit the current going in or out of the 
> amp. This may offer current protection but maybe not enough 
> voltage protection. I was thinking of putting a 12 volt Zener 
> between the op-amp output and the output ground, but I don't 
> know if that is a good idea or not. I suppose I could just 
> try it and see what happens.
> 
> It looks like the above circuit takes in an analog input, 
> converts it to PWM or PDM, then back to analog on the far 
> side of the opto-isolator. I wonder how fast it is? A VFD 
> signal might not need to change quickly, but an analog axis 
> servo would.

I should have mentioned, I was a software guy, so you've just blinded me
with you skills in the black art of analog electronics.

> 
> > > I also got my ATtiny2313 programmer and proto-board working, but 
> > > blew both 2313 chips I had on hand the first day, with no 
> gratuitous 
> > > smoke either. I'm looking for a 2313 simulator that will run on 
> > > Ubuntu so I can test programs before I try to program real chips.)
> > 
> > I only know of AVRStudio for windows, but I find that it's 
> simulation 
> > is pretty ordinary.  I was simulating the 2313 a while back 
> and it was 
> > missing a timer.  Maybe it was just a bad install.
> 
> I don't have any Windows machines so I would have to set up 
> Wine to run AVRstudio, but it may be worth it, if I can save 
> some burnt chips.

It's definitely worth it.  I can pick up errors very quickly - registers not
programmed correctly, interrupts not set up properly, and the problem I
always seem to have, integer conversion between 8, 16 and 32 bit.



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Re: [Emc-users] Non-invoked Program Stop, Re: .ngc file RFReview

[Kirk Wallace]

On Fri, 2009-06-26 at 14:52 +1000, Frank Tkalcevic wrote:
> > (Other good news/bad news. I blew out the serialDAC, but had 
> > a spare chip. I'm looking for advise on how to protect the 
> > output op-amp:
> > http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/serial_dac/ser
> > ial_dac_sch.png 

Oops, looks like I missed the link wrap. Here is a short URL:
http://preview.alturl.com/9qo4 

> I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there was an example
> circuit to opto-isolate analog outputs posted on the gecko yahoo group, in
> Files/G100 and G101/G100 to VFD.zip.  It contains a pdf schematic, as well
> as gerber files.  Full link here...
> 
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wEdESqlRISAvXS1kqNpUyHreATzPsS6fyvPYjIkwCrzxcP5
> sN-O39ow1eZON1_k89sEXfl4jj18PJjRgWEkX-UyxFYezazMt/G100%20and%20G101/G100%20t
> o%20VFD.zip

Short URL here http://preview.alturl.com/8hm6

Thanks for the link, Frank. I wish I were better at electronics, then I
would know what this circuit does. It looks like the op-amps only have a
10kOhm resistor on their outputs, which would limit the current going in
or out of the amp. This may offer current protection but maybe not
enough voltage protection. I was thinking of putting a 12 volt Zener
between the op-amp output and the output ground, but I don't know if
that is a good idea or not. I suppose I could just try it and see what
happens.

It looks like the above circuit takes in an analog input, converts it to
PWM or PDM, then back to analog on the far side of the opto-isolator. I
wonder how fast it is? A VFD signal might not need to change quickly,
but an analog axis servo would.

> > I also got my ATtiny2313 programmer and proto-board working, 
> > but blew both 2313 chips I had on hand the first day, with no 
> > gratuitous smoke either. I'm looking for a 2313 simulator 
> > that will run on Ubuntu so I can test programs before I try 
> > to program real chips.)
> 
> I only know of AVRStudio for windows, but I find that it's simulation is
> pretty ordinary.  I was simulating the 2313 a while back and it was missing
> a timer.  Maybe it was just a bad install.

I don't have any Windows machines so I would have to set up Wine to run
AVRstudio, but it may be worth it, if I can save some burnt chips.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Non-invoked Program Stop, Re: .ngc file RFReview

[Frank Tkalcevic]

> (Other good news/bad news. I blew out the serialDAC, but had 
> a spare chip. I'm looking for advise on how to protect the 
> output op-amp:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/serial_dac/ser
> ial_dac_sch.png 


I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there was an example
circuit to opto-isolate analog outputs posted on the gecko yahoo group, in
Files/G100 and G101/G100 to VFD.zip.  It contains a pdf schematic, as well
as gerber files.  Full link here...

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wEdESqlRISAvXS1kqNpUyHreATzPsS6fyvPYjIkwCrzxcP5
sN-O39ow1eZON1_k89sEXfl4jj18PJjRgWEkX-UyxFYezazMt/G100%20and%20G101/G100%20t
o%20VFD.zip


> I also got my ATtiny2313 programmer and proto-board working, 
> but blew both 2313 chips I had on hand the first day, with no 
> gratuitous smoke either. I'm looking for a 2313 simulator 
> that will run on Ubuntu so I can test programs before I try 
> to program real chips.)

I only know of AVRStudio for windows, but I find that it's simulation is
pretty ordinary.  I was simulating the 2313 a while back and it was missing
a timer.  Maybe it was just a bad install.


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Re: [Emc-users] Metricks - Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 25 June 2009, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>Gene Heskett wrote:

>> My kids, and occasionally my grandkids, call me for advice, and its
>> embarrassing to admit I know very little about their x-box's.  But it make
>> me feel good that they think I should know all about them.
>
>When I don't know I just pull my glasses down on the end of my nose,
>look like Ben Franklin and nod wisely.  They like that just as well as
>when I know :-)
>   Doug

That might work if we had videophones.  But they can't hear me nodding my head 
unless I do it violently enough to rattle the brains. :(

Hopefully by the time the great-grandchildren get interested, there will be a 
daddy between us.  Provided I haven't fallen over that is.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants them.


Mommy, what happens to your files when you die?


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Re: [Emc-users] 5 axis compensation kinematics

[Stuart Stevenson]

yes - on this machine the motion seems to be straight enough to not
worry about bow
Stuart

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Glenn R. Edwards wrote:
> Stuart,
>
> In your axis compensation plan, do you assume that the axes are perfectly
> straight and not bowed?  Such as table sag at the end of travels.
>
> Glenn
>
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-users-boun...@lists.sourceforge.net
> [mailto:emc-users-boun...@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Stuart
> Stevenson
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:46 AM
> To: EMC2-Users-List
> Subject: [Emc-users] 5 axis compensation kinematics
>
> Gentlemen,
>   I have the kinematics file on the cinci. I am running the emc-dev
> (trunk) from the git download.
>   The machine is running and looking/moving as expected.
>   Measuring and adjusting is the next task. I will assume the X axis is the
> perfect axis/joint combination and comp everything to the X axis and the
> table top.
>   My plan is to: (in this order)
>  comp the Y axis to X
>  comp the Y axis to Z (table top)
>  comp the Z axis to X
>  comp the Z axis to Y
>  comp the parallelism of the A and X axes
>  comp the parallelism of the B and Y axes
>  comp the construction errors of the AB head (the spindle centerline
> does not project exactly through either the A or B axes centerliines of
> rotation having some fun now (sweet) thanks (many thanks to the developers
> for this incredible EMC software) this sow's ear is looking like a denim
> (not quite silk) purse.
> Stuart
>
> ps - axis jog would be especially nice for this :)
> --
> you can lead a person to knowledge
> but you cannot make him think
>
> 
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>



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Re: [Emc-users] 5 axis compensation kinematics

[Glenn R. Edwards]

Stuart,

In your axis compensation plan, do you assume that the axes are perfectly
straight and not bowed?  Such as table sag at the end of travels.

Glenn

-Original Message-
From: emc-users-boun...@lists.sourceforge.net
[mailto:emc-users-boun...@lists.sourceforge.net] On Behalf Of Stuart
Stevenson
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:46 AM
To: EMC2-Users-List
Subject: [Emc-users] 5 axis compensation kinematics

Gentlemen,
   I have the kinematics file on the cinci. I am running the emc-dev
(trunk) from the git download.
   The machine is running and looking/moving as expected.
   Measuring and adjusting is the next task. I will assume the X axis is the
perfect axis/joint combination and comp everything to the X axis and the
table top.
   My plan is to: (in this order)
  comp the Y axis to X
  comp the Y axis to Z (table top)
  comp the Z axis to X
  comp the Z axis to Y
  comp the parallelism of the A and X axes
  comp the parallelism of the B and Y axes
  comp the construction errors of the AB head (the spindle centerline
does not project exactly through either the A or B axes centerliines of
rotation having some fun now (sweet) thanks (many thanks to the developers
for this incredible EMC software) this sow's ear is looking like a denim
(not quite silk) purse.
Stuart

ps - axis jog would be especially nice for this :)
--
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but you cannot make him think


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Re: [Emc-users] Non-invoked Program Stop, Re: .ngc file RFReview

[Kirk Wallace]

On Sun, 2009-06-14 at 20:24 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-06-13 at 22:31 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-06-12 at 22:22 -0700, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> > > In case anyone is interested, I have an .ngc file that I'll probably run
> > > tomorrow, but if anyone finds anything that might improve it, I would
> > > appreciate hearing from you. Thanks.
> > > 
> > > http://wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/ngc/encoder-100ppr-4c.ngc 
> > > 
> > 
> > I tried making the part tonight and ran into a problem. I did a dry run
... snip

In case anyone is interested, I finally got a good part. There were two
prominent problems. One is the program stop at hole 19 when actually
cutting metal, the other, the AXIS red lines for the center hole would
disappear while air cutting detents near hole 21.

I went back to a bare-bones XYZ axes only configuration and was able to
complete a good air part. I added features to this config while testing
until I got the spindle and mist going. At this point I had enough to
try a real part, which failed. Then I swapped out the VFD and noted that
its indicated frequency also varied, but to a lesser degree. I tried
running a part and had success.

So it's not clear what the problems were (or are). It may be one or a
combination of my original configuration file and/or a noisy VFD. The
working configuration file is missing the original MPG, pyVCP spindle
and MPG control and display, and a lot of commented out future features.
I had the original VFD in a separate metal enclosure with an input
filter and a bead on the motor output, so it's hard to believe that this
would be a source of the problem, but I now have a good part:

http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/dcp_6786-1a.jpg 
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/dcp_6789-1a.jpg 

So I'll probably put the rest of the features into the new
configuration, use the new (but way old Mitsubishi Z200) VFD and go on
to the next part.

(Other good news/bad news. I blew out the serialDAC, but had a spare
chip. I'm looking for advise on how to protect the output op-amp:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/serial_dac/serial_dac_sch.png 

I also got my ATtiny2313 programmer and proto-board working, but blew
both 2313 chips I had on hand the first day, with no gratuitous smoke
either. I'm looking for a 2313 simulator that will run on Ubuntu so I
can test programs before I try to program real chips.)

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] Show a message from a hal pin

[Andy Pugh]

2009/6/25 Leslie Newell :
>
> On my lathe I have a number of inputs that monitor things such as lube
> oil level, hydraulic pressure etc. If one of these inputs triggers it
> will estop the machine.

You might want to consider more than one level of problem (if you have
the pins). For example, lube oil level probably shouldn't scrap a
part, but then some errors most certainly should not scrap the
mill/lathe

The current trend in automotive diagnostics is to log, report, flag
and carry on.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Tuning servomotors. Calibration

[Andy Pugh]

2009/6/25  :

> Sequences 1-3 very clear.
> Sequence 4 – means increase D until graph will be represent with line and
> not with line that has noise (vibration type).
> Am I right here?
> Sequence 5. What is mean instability? Is this same as an oscillation?

Yes, exactly,

> I know what oscillation means, but what instability is and how it will be
> represented on Hal Scope.

In this context they are much the same thing, though perhaps different
in detail. An oscillation is probably meant to describe a periodic and
increasing failure to meet a  step change in the setpoint, and an
instability might be random variations in a position when there is no
change in setpoint.

You seem to be describing Ziegler- Nichols tuning, and a google search
on those words should help with more detail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziegler–Nichols_method as a starting point

However, Z-N tuning is most effective for symmetric systems, you might
still get better performance with hand tuning from those base points.
My personal experience is "Beware of D" especially in any system with
backlash.

[Irrelevant detail] in my real job we run controllers where P I and D
are themselves functions of other things, including noise factors such
as fuel temperarature and simple factors such as distance from
setpoint. PI and D are not the be-all and end-all of control, and if
that is all you have then perfection (and indeed adequacy) might be
unobtainable)

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Re: [Emc-users] Show a message from a hal pin

[Jeff Epler]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:18:51PM +0100, Leslie Newell wrote:
> On my lathe I have a number of inputs that monitor things such as lube 
> oil level, hydraulic pressure etc. If one of these inputs triggers it 
> will estop the machine. I would like a warning to show in Axis when this 
> happens. So... is there any way to trigger a message when a HAL pin changes?

Perhaps you can find inspiration from
http://media.unpythonic.net/emergent-files/sandbox/error.comp

Jeff

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[Emc-users] Show a message from a hal pin

[Leslie Newell]

On my lathe I have a number of inputs that monitor things such as lube 
oil level, hydraulic pressure etc. If one of these inputs triggers it 
will estop the machine. I would like a warning to show in Axis when this 
happens. So... is there any way to trigger a message when a HAL pin changes?

Les

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Re: [Emc-users] Tuning servomotors. Calibration

[a]

Hi
In book Industrial Automation and Process Control I found interesting
sequence for tuning:
1.   Turn all gains to zero.
2.  Adjust the proportional gain until the system begins to oscillate.
3.  Reduce the proportional gain until the oscillation stops and then
reduce it by about 20 percent more.
4.  Increase the derivative term to improve the system stability.
5.  Next raise the integral term until the system reaches the point of
instability and reduce it slightly.
Sequences 1-3 very clear.
Sequence 4 – means increase D until graph will be represent with line and
not with line that has noise (vibration type).
Am I right here?
Sequence 5. What is mean instability? Is this same as an oscillation?
I know what oscillation means, but what instability is and how it will be
represented on Hal Scope.
Thank you,
Aram



> a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote:
>> Hello
>> I want to ask question about tuning of servomotor.
>>
>> 1. In Calibration window I think missing FF3 parameter. Is it important
>> to
>> put FF3 into Calibration window?
>>
> There is no FF3.  Do you mean FF2?  If the FF2 line doesn't appear in
> the .ini file, then it will not appear in the
> calibration window, either.  Just edit it into the .ini file with a
> value of 0.0 and you can then adjust it in the cal. window.
>> My question is how to determine what jag increment should be?
>>
> I usually use a jog that takes about 1/2 to one second to complete the
> entire move.
>
> Jon
>
> --
> Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial
> Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited
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[Emc-users] 5 axis compensation kinematics

[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,
   I have the kinematics file on the cinci. I am running the emc-dev
(trunk) from the git download.
   The machine is running and looking/moving as expected.
   Measuring and adjusting is the next task. I will assume the X axis
is the perfect axis/joint combination and comp everything to the X
axis and the table top.
   My plan is to: (in this order)
  comp the Y axis to X
  comp the Y axis to Z (table top)
  comp the Z axis to X
  comp the Z axis to Y
  comp the parallelism of the A and X axes
  comp the parallelism of the B and Y axes
  comp the construction errors of the AB head (the spindle
centerline does not project exactly through either the A or B axes
centerliines of rotation
having some fun now (sweet)
thanks (many thanks to the developers for this incredible EMC software)
this sow's ear is looking like a denim (not quite silk) purse.
Stuart

ps - axis jog would be especially nice for this :)
--
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but you cannot make him think

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Re: [Emc-users] Metricks - Mill-Drill needs steppers and servos?

[Douglas Pollard]

Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 13 June 2009, Douglas Pollard wrote:
>
>   
>> At 75 years old
>> 
>
> Darn, I've been dethroned as the resident old codger, I won't be 75 till 
> October 2009.
>
> Congrats Doug.
>
>   
>> I am just now learning cad and cad cam. I have
>> a lathe, a home made mill and I am converting it to cnc.  So most of you
>> guys are light years ahead of me even if you are just starting with cnc.
>>  The really good news about all this all my grand and great
>> grand children think I am the greatest grand pop there ever was, because
>> I can talk technology with them.  I make little short videos and send
>> them and they love it.
>>
>> Doug
>> 
>
> My kids, and occasionally my grandkids, call me for advice, and its 
> embarrassing to admit I know very little about their x-box's.  But it make me 
> feel good that they think I should know all about them.
>
>   
When I don't know I just pull my glasses down on the end of my nose, 
look like Ben Franklin and nod wisely.  They like that just as well as 
when I know :-)
   Doug

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Re: [Emc-users] OpenGL on EMC2? + 7i43

[Stuart Stevenson]

Gentlemen,
   My personal preference for installing EMC2 is as follows:

install a minimum of 256 mb ram
try to use the motherboard video (keep as simple as possible)
in bios - set parallel port to epp (I use Jon Elson's boards and they
require EPP mode)
load Ubuntu (6.06 LTS or 8.04 LTS) (depends on computer hardware) (for my
touch screens I find 6.06 is the easiest to configure)
update Ubuntu version to latest of the version
configure everything in Ubuntu as desired (especially touch screens)
download and run the install.sh for EMC2
restart computer
start EMC2 from the menu to make sure it will run
stop EMC2
git (a version) (I prefer trunk)
follow wiki instructions for build prep
go to src directory and configure (I always configure to run in place)
look through the configure results to make sure configure found everything
necessary
if configure did not find everything then install packages to resolve
dependencies and run configure again
when configure has found everything then run 'make'
when make has completed successfully then run 'sudo make setuid'
go to the top level directory of the version you installed
run 'scripts/emc'
EMC2 should start and run
if your touch screen was working before the EMC2 install - it will work now
until you have your machine starting and running reliably you need to start
EMC2 in a terminal so you can see the error messages - after you have your
machine running you can copy the menu icon to your desktop and change the
launch path to your compile version and use your icon to start EMC2
hth
Stuart

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Re: [Emc-users] Ubuntu Version vs EMC2 Version.

[Jack Coats]

yes.

Use only the LTS version, 6.06 only.

 *http://linuxcnc.org/dapper/emc2-install.sh*

But I think that after downloading the program,
edit this shell script to change the 2.2 to 2.3
before running it.

Then follow the standard directions from
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_6_06_using_precompiled_EMC2_packages

><> ... Jack


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Richard Acosta  wrote:

> After unthinkable and endless failures on Ubuntu 8.xx (9.1 too) i'm
> thinking about to install EMC2 on 6.xx.
>
> If i install Ubuntu 6.xx and use the script provided by LinuxCNC would i
> get the latest EMC2 release? or only the one available when 6.xx was the
> last.?
>
> Thanks.
>
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Re: [Emc-users] OpenGL on EMC2? + 7i43

[Jack Coats]

This is probably what you have tried anyway, but I had a similar problem
in the past:

I have had good luck doing an install from a 8.04 CD that is just ubuntu.
Before doing any updates from the 'net', add the proper lines for EMC2
  to the sources.list

*http://linuxcnc.org/hardy/emc2-install.sh*

can do this for you)
  It also does 'apt-get update', if you don't see it, do that run, enter it
again.
Then
  apt-get install emc2
Only after all that do a
  apt-get upgrade
When the upgrade installs the updates which will eventuall include new
  kernel updates, go into the /boot/grub/menu.lst and make sure
  you boot the real time kernel that comes with EMC2 by default.

><> ... Jack


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Richard Acosta  wrote:

> Ok, Thanks Sptephen, that´s the reason for my query, i made a fresh
> install on a computer using a Sis chipset motherboard and Nvidia VGA,
> when starting EMC for the first time i got this message, so i went to
> onboard VGA (Sis 730) then, the same. After that i fresh installed on a
> new hard drive on the same computer where it was working originally,
> and, again, i got this error, so i cloned the original hard drive over
> the new one, this time, no fresh install, so it should work, and
> voilá the same message :-( .
> (My hard disk, friend's computer)
>
> The fact is, that in the past, i used an nvidia GF2 MX200 card, and it
> seemed to work, but i changed VGA because i read about issues on
> LinuxCNC, and didn't understood that nv or vesa were usable.
> Never installed the nvidia proprietary driver.
>
> As i was using the computer were LinuxCNC was originally installed for
> other stuff(download) there is a chance that i installed something else
> or maybe updated... but... should'nt LinuxCNC work anyway?
>
> I'm getting tired of Ubuntu, i used it happily until 8.1 release, then i
> had a strange issue were my hard drive's data got corrupted(Lost
> everything off course), then i moved on to 9.04, but my laptop lost its
> portability (not battery sensing) and video accelleration is lame,
> too much .not. acceleration, so i went back to 8.04 two days ago, i
> updated after install (not version, only software and kernel) and got in
> first place an almost unusable kernel, not audio, not wifi, not
> LAN!!! went back on kernel, and i have SEVERAL keyboard and mouse
> interruption issues for "something" updated on KDE(i guess or maybe ACPI).
>
> I think it could may be Ubuntu's fault, never saw that many fail on so
> few time. (And i used Vista)
>
>
> So, i'm stuck now.
>
> Thanks anyway and again.
>
>
>
>
>
> El 22/06/2009 1:10 a.m., Stephen Wille Padnos escribió:
> >>Even When using a GF2 MX400 or an FX6200 (AGP both) i have this same
> >>message using both VESA or NV drivers.
> > If you have a fresh install of Linux, and you have never installed the
> > NVidia drivers, then you definitely should not get this error.  Mesa
> > (the software openGL driver) is installed by default from the EMC2
> > liveCD.  You can use synaptic to make sure it's installed, and install
> > it if not.
> >
> > - Steve
> >
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Touch screens

[Steve Blackmore]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:27:29 -0400, you wrote:


>Thanks for your patience with me,  I saw a thread with minimal replies and
>minimal progress so thought I'd jump in.  I was actually experiencing some
>insomnia and it appears I am again tonight...Sorry I didn't look at the
>change logs and bug reports.

No problem - Thanks for making the effort to try and help. Tried on IRC
and never got any replies there either, seems nobody is interested. :(

>As for trying the newer packages for Jaunty or Karmic, you're probably Ok to
>reassign the dependencies and use those packages.

I wish I knew how, I've spent days on this now and pretty much given up.

Steve Blackmore
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