Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Gregg Eshelman
On 10/30/2013 7:06 AM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:

 The loops and conditionals provided by G-code are, well, archaic. The
 format is context-sensitive and uses line numbers to keep track. Moving
 things around in a G-code program is a pain.

 The reason for a context-free grammar is to make coding more flexible
 without having to think about line numbers. A paradigm that has proven
 to be very successful.

That's why with languages which use line numbers, it's advisable to 
space them apart, if the language allows, so that additions can be 
slipped in without having to renumber the whole program. IIRC the usual 
practice with BASIC was to number lines by 10's.

Such a language should also have a utility to automatically renumber a 
program, tracing through all jumps, loops and branches to ensure it's 
all right, and trapping any errors from jumps, loops and branches to 
non-existent line numbers.

Once achieving a state where all of a program works, it's a good idea to 
do a renumber then continue work on a copy.

If G-Code cannot handle gaps in its line numbers, then perhaps an editor 
could do so, then have a Save As runnable output function which 
automatically renumbers with a step of one and another option to save 
the editing version with the gaps?

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Bertho Stultiens
On 10/31/2013 07:38 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
 Once achieving a state where all of a program works, it's a good idea to 
 do a renumber then continue work on a copy.
 
 If G-Code cannot handle gaps in its line numbers, then perhaps an editor 
 could do so, then have a Save As runnable output function which 
 automatically renumbers with a step of one and another option to save 
 the editing version with the gaps?

If you already are in need for a program to help you to fix a program,
then why not fix the language in the first place?

G-code has already evolved through time to support many more features
than originally envisioned, but it still suffers from the the same
archaic syntax. That was (and is) my objection. Even basic evolved into
a (almost) context-free grammar, for the better or worse, in visual
basic. Please note that you can write bad code in any language...

I am not forcing anybody to change their habbits or preferences, only
hoping to. I am trying to provide an alternative. Explaining why I want
to provide an alternative seems a reasonable thing to do.

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Kent Reed
On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Bertho Stultiens ber...@vagrearg.orgwrote:

 On 10/31/2013 07:38 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
  Once achieving a state where all of a program works, it's a good idea to
  do a renumber then continue work on a copy.
 
  If G-Code cannot handle gaps in its line numbers, then perhaps an editor
  could do so, then have a Save As runnable output function which
  automatically renumbers with a step of one and another option to save
  the editing version with the gaps?

 If you already are in need for a program to help you to fix a program,
 then why not fix the language in the first place?

 G-code has already evolved through time to support many more features
 than originally envisioned, but it still suffers from the the same
 archaic syntax. That was (and is) my objection. Even basic evolved into
 a (almost) context-free grammar, for the better or worse, in visual
 basic. Please note that you can write bad code in any language...

 I am not forcing anybody to change their habbits or preferences, only
 hoping to. I am trying to provide an alternative. Explaining why I want
 to provide an alternative seems a reasonable thing to do.


Guys:

I don't understand this obsession with line (aka block or sequence) numbers
in G-Code, e.g., instances of the N word. They are optional and exist for
the benefit of the programmer / operator, not the interpreter. Use your
favorite search engine to find examples of utilities which can add, remove,
or renumber line numbers in G-Code programs. (Sorry, many are not free, but
that's the way life is. Write your own if you feel the need. It's an easy
exercise.) Note that O words are the proverbial horse of another color.

Bertho, there is no need to dwell on the archaic syntax of G-Code. G-Code
was invented long ago and will continue to live on given the installed base
of machinery, design/control software, trained operators, and G-Code
programs stored away for future use. Sure it's a conservative industry, but
the emergence of CAD/CAM software means most professionals no longer
generate G-Code by hand anyway.

There is no need to dwell on the justification for providing an
alternative, either. As my grandmother was fond of saying, the proof of
the pudding is in the eating. Let's get on with finishing the pudding and
let the CNC world decide if it likes the taste. If it does, then gcmc will
be its own justification. If it doesn't, you'll still have a program which
satisfies your needs and sensibilities. My guess is that some will like it,
some won't. A long-ago friend liked to remind me, there's no accounting
for taste.

Just my 2-cents worth.

Regards,
Kent


PS - Never forget the lesson taught by history. Esperanto was a perfect,
easy-to-learn language with many desirable features and intended to promote
peace and harmony in the world. Lingua Franca was a bastard, polyglot
language which grew out of necessity to support growing commerce among
countries surrounding the Mediterranean. Guess which one was consequential
in world history.
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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Bertho Stultiens
On 10/31/2013 01:25 PM, Kent Reed wrote:
 There is no need to dwell on the justification for providing an
 alternative, either. As my grandmother was fond of saying, the proof of
 the pudding is in the eating. Let's get on with finishing the pudding and
 let the CNC world decide if it likes the taste. If it does, then gcmc will
 be its own justification. If it doesn't, you'll still have a program which
 satisfies your needs and sensibilities. My guess is that some will like it,
 some won't. A long-ago friend liked to remind me, there's no accounting
 for taste.

Well said, thanks.


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[Emc-users] 5I25+7I77 problems

2013-10-31 Thread Ralph Stirling
I've been giving a little advice and help to a student
retrofitting a mill in the Technology department machine
shop.  He has stripped out the old Delta control and has
wired in a 7I77 connected to a 5I25.  I sat down with
him and went through pncconf, but when we got to
actually trying to make things move, I discovered he
didn't have any 24V field power wired up.  Came back
a few days later to make more progress.  No luck.  Here
is the situation:

1. The 7I77 jumper W1 had been left in the default (left)
position when 24V was applied to VFIELD.  This caused
CR15 and CR16 to light.

2. After removing VFIELD, moving W1 to the right, and reapplying
VFIELD, all led's except CR3 are off.

3. Since CR1 was off, I checked the 5I25 jumpers, and found
W1 up but W2 down.  Moved W2 up also, still no CR1 lit on 7I77.

4. LinuxCNC obviously won't start successfully.  Dmesg shows 5I25
found, registered, initialized, then dropped.  Linuxcnc_debug.txt
shows:
 Can not find -sec MOT -var MOT -num 1
 Can not find -sec IO -var IO -num 1
 Can not find -sec LINUXCNC -var NML_FILE -num 1
 Can not find -sec EMC -var NML_FILE -num 1

These sound to me like ini/hal file problems, but ini and hal are
straight out of pncconf, which seemed to run fine.

So, I suspect I've got multiple problems, but I would very much
appreciate help sorting them out.  I haven't used the 5I25 and 7I77
before (just lots of time with the 7I43).

Thanks,
-- Ralph
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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread dave
On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 14:11 +0100, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
 On 10/31/2013 01:25 PM, Kent Reed wrote:
  There is no need to dwell on the justification for providing an
  alternative, either. As my grandmother was fond of saying, the proof of
  the pudding is in the eating. Let's get on with finishing the pudding and
  let the CNC world decide if it likes the taste. If it does, then gcmc will
  be its own justification. If it doesn't, you'll still have a program which
  satisfies your needs and sensibilities. My guess is that some will like it,
  some won't. A long-ago friend liked to remind me, there's no accounting
  for taste.
 
 Well said, thanks.
 
 
Hi Bertho, 
From my standpoint what you have is a good start.
 
Just to be picky ... my poor brain converts parses dodwell to dod ..
well and and an underscore would fix that but probably screw up
something. 
I hope that your syntax grows to understand the imperial system for
those stuck in the middle ages.
 
In addition the mil is also used as an angular measurement in artillery.
Close to but not identical to a minute of angle. 

The conversion of 1 inch = 25.4 mm is correct only in the US as our ever
knowing Congress defined it by law. AFIK the rest of the world doesn't
round it off. 
Keep up the good work. 

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] 5I25+7I77 problems

2013-10-31 Thread andy pugh
On 31 October 2013 14:54, Ralph Stirling ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu wrote:

  Can not find -sec MOT -var MOT -num 1
  Can not find -sec IO -var IO -num 1
  Can not find -sec LINUXCNC -var NML_FILE -num 1
  Can not find -sec EMC -var NML_FILE -num 1

Annoyingly you always get those at the moment, and they are nothing to
be concerned about.

The next line, or dmesg might have a better clue to what is going on.

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread andy pugh
On 31 October 2013 15:03, dave dengv...@charter.net wrote:

 The conversion of 1 inch = 25.4 mm is correct only in the US as our ever
 knowing Congress defined it by law. AFIK the rest of the world doesn't
 round it off.

I seem to recall that the only countries where that would matter are
Burma and Liberia.

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Marius Liebenberg
I always understood a mil to be a measure specifically for angular 
measurements. It is widely used by military all over the world.
Many gun sights are calibrated in mils as a choice for better resolution.
1deg = 17.7mil.

On 2013/10/31 06:29 PM, Kent Reed wrote:
 On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Bertho Stultiens ber...@vagrearg.orgwrote:

 On 10/31/2013 04:03 PM, dave wrote:...
 In addition the mil is also used as an angular measurement in artillery.
 Close to but not identical to a minute of angle.

 I learned 'mil' as a unit of length measure from my father but the
 machinist who took me under his wing when I was in graduate school tried to
 train me to say 'thou' (short for 'thousandth of an inch') both because of
 this conflict and because of the propensity for some to think they heard
 'millimeter.' Editors in publishing houses usually didn't allow the word in
 engineering texts because 'thou' means 'you' to them.



 And you are seriously considering that your next canon is going to use
 G-code in the firing sequence??? :-)


 Well, at least this usage would be canon-ical.

 Regards,
 Kent

 PS - By international agreement the inch has been exactly 25.4 mm for more
 than 50 years.
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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Marius Liebenberg
For fun go and test yourself

http://www.armystudyguide.com/flashcards/flashcards.php?cat=62qnum=7


On 2013/10/31 07:18 PM, Marius Liebenberg wrote:
 I always understood a mil to be a measure specifically for angular
 measurements. It is widely used by military all over the world.
 Many gun sights are calibrated in mils as a choice for better resolution.
 1deg = 17.7mil.

 On 2013/10/31 06:29 PM, Kent Reed wrote:
 On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Bertho Stultiens 
 ber...@vagrearg.orgwrote:

 On 10/31/2013 04:03 PM, dave wrote:...
 In addition the mil is also used as an angular measurement in artillery.
 Close to but not identical to a minute of angle.
 I learned 'mil' as a unit of length measure from my father but the
 machinist who took me under his wing when I was in graduate school tried to
 train me to say 'thou' (short for 'thousandth of an inch') both because of
 this conflict and because of the propensity for some to think they heard
 'millimeter.' Editors in publishing houses usually didn't allow the word in
 engineering texts because 'thou' means 'you' to them.



 And you are seriously considering that your next canon is going to use
 G-code in the firing sequence??? :-)


 Well, at least this usage would be canon-ical.

 Regards,
 Kent

 PS - By international agreement the inch has been exactly 25.4 mm for more
 than 50 years.
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Tel: +27 12 743 6064
Fax: +27 86 551 8029
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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread andy pugh
On 31 October 2013 17:18, Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za wrote:
 I always understood a mil to be a measure specifically for angular
 measurements. It is widely used by military all over the world.
 Many gun sights are calibrated in mils as a choice for better resolution.
 1deg = 17.7mil.

Not 17.45? That would be a milli-radian.

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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread Stephen Dubovsky
a mil dot on a gun sight is one milliradian.  It works out to 1m offset at
1000m (or 1yd @ 1000yd if so inclined but metric is easier.)


On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 1:52 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 31 October 2013 17:18, Marius Liebenberg mar...@mastercut.co.za
 wrote:
  I always understood a mil to be a measure specifically for angular
  measurements. It is widely used by military all over the world.
  Many gun sights are calibrated in mils as a choice for better resolution.
  1deg = 17.7mil.

 Not 17.45? That would be a milli-radian.

 --
 atp
 If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
 http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] Rotary stage

2013-10-31 Thread Stuart Stevenson
Andy,
  Is this more like what you want?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7g46vdlz2svokn7/worm2.igs



On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote:

 here is a more complete model for your enjoyment/critique

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/boyfgtldlw0kw8h/BallWormex2.igs


 On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:12 AM, Dave Caroline 
 dave.thearchiv...@gmail.com wrote:

 Before anyone makes new rotaries, I have an interesting article from

 Summer school in electrical engineering, proceedings July 12 to 16 1948
 BTH, The British Thomson-Houston Co Ltd
 Vibration and noise problems in engineering
 They were using an early spectrum analysis tool listening to the noise
 from a drive gear set made on a hobbing machine.

 http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/proceedings/PR22/

 see pages 60 61 and the table on page 66

 The dominant error as you may see is regular error at tooth frequency

 A way I would put it is, if there were no accuracy errors there would
 be no sound to measure. Even the the measures they took to make the
 360 master wheel still show up in the the result in table 1.

 The accuracy of a worm drive is also very important to telescope
 makers and to show the periodic error I mentioned earlier in this
 thread this page has some graphs
 http://www.pk3.org/Astro/index.htm?astrophoto_mount_errors.htm

 Just think how you are going to make your worm pitch match yout worm
 gear pcd to the accuracy needed.

 Hope it all goes well.


 Dave Caroline


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Re: [Emc-users] Rotary stage

2013-10-31 Thread andy pugh
On 31 October 2013 22:29, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote:
 Andy,
   Is this more like what you want?

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/7g46vdlz2svokn7/worm2.igs

That is a lot more like the JHU version, and maybe that is why they
did it that way.
But I am still more interested in trying the enveloping worm version.
It should have more balls in play, but the actual contact area might
turn out to be lower.

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Re: [Emc-users] Rotary stage

2013-10-31 Thread Stuart Stevenson
Describe your enveloping worm so I can try to model it.
On Oct 31, 2013 6:04 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 31 October 2013 22:29, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote:
  Andy,
Is this more like what you want?
 
  https://www.dropbox.com/s/7g46vdlz2svokn7/worm2.igs

 That is a lot more like the JHU version, and maybe that is why they
 did it that way.
 But I am still more interested in trying the enveloping worm version.
 It should have more balls in play, but the actual contact area might
 turn out to be lower.

 --
 atp
 If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
 http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


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Re: [Emc-users] Rotary stage

2013-10-31 Thread andy pugh
On 31 October 2013 23:11, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote:
 Describe your enveloping worm so I can try to model it.

That is what we have been modelling earlier.
(I am a bit confused)

-- 
atp
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Re: [Emc-users] Rack and Pinion Ware?

2013-10-31 Thread Todd Zuercher
I had almost talked the machine manufacturer into offering a helical rack setup 
as an upgrade.  It had gone so far as a parts list and price quote.  This was 
about 5 years ago, we decided to go with the standard replacement then.  But 
now our machines are looking like they need it again, and we were going to go 
with the upgrade this time.  Unfortunately the manufacturer decided they could 
not (would not) do the helical upgrade as an in the field modification (to much 
machining to make it work right.)  These machines (we have 2) were new in 2006 
and have had the racks changed twice and the pinions 4 times.  

- Original Message -
From: andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 12:36:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rack and Pinion Ware?

On 31 October 2013 16:14, Todd  Zuercher
zuerc...@embarqmail.com wrote:

 Is there a rule of thum for judging the ware on a racks and pinion?

The way my dad measured gear backlash (which is indicative of wear,
especially if you know what it should be) was to run a length of
solder through the meshing gears.

On the big gears[1], they would use a thick solder.

Helical gears will run smoother, if you are replacing everything.
Double-helical biased sideways can be adjusted to have no backlash.


[1]  http://www.davidbrown.cn/products/girth%20gear%20large.jpg
-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

--
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developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
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Re: [Emc-users] gcmc - G-Code Meta Compiler

2013-10-31 Thread dave
On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 12:29 -0400, Kent Reed wrote:
 On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Bertho Stultiens ber...@vagrearg.orgwrote:
 
  On 10/31/2013 04:03 PM, dave wrote:...
   In addition the mil is also used as an angular measurement in artillery.
   Close to but not identical to a minute of angle.
 
 
 I learned 'mil' as a unit of length measure from my father but the
 machinist who took me under his wing when I was in graduate school tried to
 train me to say 'thou' (short for 'thousandth of an inch') both because of
 this conflict and because of the propensity for some to think they heard
 'millimeter.' Editors in publishing houses usually didn't allow the word in
 engineering texts because 'thou' means 'you' to them.
 
 
 
  And you are seriously considering that your next canon is going to use
  G-code in the firing sequence??? :-)
 
 
 Well, at least this usage would be canon-ical.
 
 Regards,
 Kent
 
 PS - By international agreement the inch has been exactly 25.4 mm for more
 than 50 years.

Ouch! So I'm that far out of date. Hmmm. time to download some new brain
cells. ;-)

Dave
 --
 Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that
 developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
 paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
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Re: [Emc-users] Rotary stage

2013-10-31 Thread Stuart Stevenson
I went back and reread the previous emails and saw you called what we were
working on 'enveloping'. I had not remembered that term.
I am trying to see how to modify the curve to allow what you want. I have
not seen a way yet.
On Oct 31, 2013 6:19 PM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 31 October 2013 23:11, Stuart Stevenson stus...@gmail.com wrote:
  Describe your enveloping worm so I can try to model it.

 That is what we have been modelling earlier.
 (I am a bit confused)

 --
 atp
 If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
 http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto


 --
 Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that
 developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
 paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
 Android apps secure.
 http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=65839951iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
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 Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
Android apps secure.
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