Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

One of these days I'm expecting to see someone build a power wall style 
installation that uses lithium ion power tool batteries plugged into sockets. 
Imagine a closet full of Ryobi ONE+ 18 volt batteries. Buy them used, old ones 
on clearance etc. The practical aspect is the ONE+ batteries have built in safe 
discharge control so they can be used in the old blue and orange tools, and 
Ryobi didn't have to include discharge control circuitry in every new green and 
black tool. The lithium ion ONE+ batteries do require a special charger that 
uses the 4th contact. Those chargers can also charge to 3 contact nickel 
cadmium batteries. I dunno why Ryobi skipped using nickle metal hydride.


On Tuesday, May 14, 2019, 12:01:47 PM MDT, Bruce Layne 
 wrote:  
 
 Great analysis, Chris.  There's no way I'd use any lead acid battery
technology in a new off-the-grid solar power system.

A friend of mine replaced his old lead acid batteries with a home brewed
Tesla Power Wall, built from the battery from a wrecked Tesla Model S
automobile.

Part 1 (23 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpPYkqpe-Ms

Part 2 (13 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3PM2Ndu0zg  
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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 May 2019 07:55:51 pm Alan Condit wrote:

> Chris and Gene,
>
> I just went to the dlidirect.com  website and
> clicked on the “Full Developer Kit” pull down, it showed out of stock
> when I looked but while I was on the page looking I got a invitation
> to chat box. I asked whether you could order the developers kit
> through the website or if you had to buy it through Amazon. The chat
> person said give me a call and posted their phone number. They said
> they had a limited number of developer kits in stock but the price was
> now $119 plus $20 shipping. So, I placed an order and was told that it
> will ship tomorrow.
>
> Assuming that I didn’t get scammed, I should have it in a few days.
>
> Alan
>
Sounds good Alan. Frankly,  nothing beats putting ones own fingerprints 
on something new that sounds usable.

So let us know how it goes.

> > From: Chris Albertson 
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi
> > Date: May 13, 2019 at 9:58:57 PM PDT
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> >
> >
> > I looked at their web site.  About $108 for the full developer kit
> > but you get two units, the pwr supply, and a camera.   It's a
> > fantastic deal but they are sold out.  They say "restocking now" and
> > to buy them on Amazon.
> >
> > $108 for two is a great deal.
> >
> > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:21 PM Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> >> On Monday 13 May 2019 11:43:56 pm jeremy youngs wrote:
> >>> https://dlidirect.com/products/atomic-pi?fbclid=IwAR0k6hdGM6u1RJSV
> >>>NLPn kMxKnkg6CfnWs1szLEF9zhEj2YDZB0Z_PaWxVpQ
> >>>
> >>> Any trying this ?
> >>
> >> Not yet, sure looks interesting though. What does the whole kit,
> >> bob and pdu shown cost?
> >>
> >> Maybe it could be our next D525MW but with an spi interface to a
> >> 7i90HD?
> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >> --
> >> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> >> Genes Web page 
>
> ___
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Alan Condit]

Chris and Gene,

I just went to the dlidirect.com  website and clicked on 
the “Full Developer Kit” pull down, it showed out of stock when I looked but 
while I was on the page looking I got a invitation to chat box. I asked whether 
you could order the developers kit through the website or if you had to buy it 
through Amazon. The chat person said give me a call and posted their phone 
number. They said they had a limited number of developer kits in stock but the 
price was now $119 plus $20 shipping. So, I placed an order and was told that 
it will ship tomorrow.

Assuming that I didn’t get scammed, I should have it in a few days.

Alan

> From: Chris Albertson 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi
> Date: May 13, 2019 at 9:58:57 PM PDT
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> 
> 
> I looked at their web site.  About $108 for the full developer kit but you
> get two units, the pwr supply, and a camera.   It's a fantastic deal but
> they are sold out.  They say "restocking now" and to buy them on Amazon.
> 
> $108 for two is a great deal.
> 
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:21 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
>> On Monday 13 May 2019 11:43:56 pm jeremy youngs wrote:
>> 
>>> https://dlidirect.com/products/atomic-pi?fbclid=IwAR0k6hdGM6u1RJSVNLPn
>>> kMxKnkg6CfnWs1szLEF9zhEj2YDZB0Z_PaWxVpQ
>>> 
>>> Any trying this ?
>>> 
>> Not yet, sure looks interesting though. What does the whole kit, bob and
>> pdu shown cost?
>> 
>> Maybe it could be our next D525MW but with an spi interface to a 7i90HD?
>> 
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] velocity in world mode

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 21:41, yomin estiven jaramillo munera <
yejm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> hi, i have set the parameter MAX_VELOCITY many times but the velocity in
> world mode does not change,


What is the MAX_VELOCITY in the [TRAJ] section?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

What would be very useful is a little PC box made so it's built in peripherals 
leave a 64K free space between 640K and 1024K in the default location for LIM 
EMS 4.0. Even better would be a 32 megabyte chip on board for a hardware 
implementation of EMS. With today's tech-fu that chip could be used for a wide 
variety of other uses for systems other than DOS.
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Re: [Emc-users] How come.... Batteries

[Chris Albertson]

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:54 AM Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  I have done calculations there storage cost for generated energy where
> higher than buying new electricity.
>

I depends on if you have time  of use metering.Here where I live the
utilty price depends on the time of day.   It used to be power was cheapest
at night and highers in mid afternoon when all the airconditional loads
were active.But solar power has changed this and now power is chear
when the sun is out.

Batteries if they are cheap enough like the Tesla units can ppay for them
selfs if yo buy power when it is lowset and used it when the price is high.
   But you need very good quality batteries to break even.

One interresting solution is to use an electric car. Let's say you know
you nedd to drive to work in the moring.  But "work" is only 20 miles round
trip.   You can get there on a 10% charge.So you charge the car durring
the day and then use the car to power the house while beibg carfule to
leave about 10% still inthe battery so you can get to work in the moring.
This works if you already own an electric car.

lastly, in 10 to 20 years there will be an over supply of used electric car
batteries that are no longer suitable for use in tha car.   A dozen of
these used battries would be perfect for a house   Tesla is selling 500K
cars per year now and VW is building a factory to make 600K and Tesla is
planning a second factory.   We shall soon see over  a million per years.
Then in 10 years we will have that many old batteries to salvageevery
year.  They will be cheap

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Kirk Wallace]

On 5/14/19 9:33 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty of 
space so I may do a ground level install.

It would be a lot easier to maintain.

FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant use 
residential install.


In my opinion, lead-acid batteries of any format are far inferior to 
lithium. LA batteries need to be at full charge most of the time or they 
will degrade and with good management will only last about 5 years. I 
ended up running my generator to charge my FLA batteries in the evening 
if the solar had not brought them up during the day. So I ran the 
generator most days. Lithium batteries don't like to be fully charged so 
now I don't need to worry about topping up before I go to bed. Lead-acid 
batteries typically have a cycle life in the hundreds of cycles where 
lithium battery cycle life is in the thousands or more, and end up being 
cheaper in the longer term. On the other hand, Lithium batteries are 
easy to kill if they are over or under charged, so a proper battery 
manager/protector/balancer is a must. Otherwise they have a wide charge 
range and don't mind be anywhere within that range. I have been using 
these with good success for a while:

https://kit.com/jehu/lithium-battery-sources-july-2018/1274926-johnson-controls-24-
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/solar-charge-controllers.html

(Epever 40 amp)



I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't 
want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!


Weight isn't an issue.

Dave


... snipped to end


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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi --> software PWM

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...
> I have written machine code for the Bone's PRU for special 
> applications.  It is GREAT having a 32-bit CPU that can 
> toggle I/O pins in 5 ns. ...
I have done software toggling then no or not enough timers where available and 
consider real timers better, they are cheap so no reason to skip them for this. 
Some programmable logic might had been a good choice and or some peripherals 
like timers.


Nicklas Karlsson


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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Bruce Layne]

Great analysis, Chris.  There's no way I'd use any lead acid battery
technology in a new off-the-grid solar power system.

A friend of mine replaced his old lead acid batteries with a home brewed
Tesla Power Wall, built from the battery from a wrecked Tesla Model S
automobile.

Part 1 (23 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpPYkqpe-Ms

Part 2 (13 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3PM2Ndu0zg

For small solar powered devices, there are LiFePo4 batteries that are
sized to replace sealed lead acid batteries.  LiFePO4 technology is the
much safer form of lithium battery.  These sealed battery modules have
internal cell balancing, and some of them have under voltage and over
voltage protection.  A cheap imported DC to DC converter can be used in
lieu of a charge controller.  That makes it very easy to design a solar
power system.  For most applications, simply size the battery for the
maximum energy needed for use at night and cloudy days and then size the
solar panel to be sufficient for the desired charge time without being
so large that it can charge the battery at an excessive rate.  I just
got the components from Amazon to power a 100W amateur radio station
that's entirely off-the-grid.  Hopefully I'll get that built and tested
this week.





On 5/14/19 1:36 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> If you are building a battery-based power system and space and weight are
> not issues then what you should care about is the "total watt-hours per
> dollar".
>
> Here is an example,... You have a 100 amp-hour lead-acid battery at 12
> volts.  If it is lead-acid then you can only discharge to 50% if you want a
> reasonable lifetime.If it is a cheap batery it might last only 100
> charge cycles.   so 50% x 100 cycles x 100 amp-hours x 12 volts is 60 KWH.
>The cheap battery might cost $100 to you pay  $1.60 per KHW for battery
> power based on the replacement cost of the battery.  You can buy a higher
> quality battery for more money but your cost is going to be between $1 and
> $2. per KWH
>
> So the cost of the battery power is 4 to 8 times high than the cost of
> power from the utility company.
>
> But what if you buy higher quality batteries?
>
> A Tesla "Power Wall" cost $6,800 (They used to be $10K)  it is a 13 KW
> capacity and is good for more than 3,000 charge cycles and is actually
> warrantied for 10 years.   It is maintenance free for 10 years.   Use with
> a waentry you have an incentive to use it for the full 3,650 cycles.
> Lets assume you only cycle it 3,000 times. That is under 20 cets per
> KHW for battery power.  It is dramtically cheaper then lead acid.
>
> This is why Tesla is selling b'zillions fo power wall systems.   If you do
> care about space, these Power Wall units cn be mounted to an exterior wall
> and actually look attractive.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Dave Cole  wrote:
>
>> I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty of
>> space so I may do a ground level install.
>> It would be a lot easier to maintain.
>>
>> FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant use
>> residential install.
>>
>> I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't
>> want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!
>>
>> Weight isn't an issue.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/9/2019 10:37 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>>> On 09.05.19 10:24, Dave Cole wrote:
 Erik,

 Do you have a blog going on your build?
>>> Now that's an idea. All I've started is the seeds of an article for
>>> "Owner Builder" magazine - the editor was interested when we last spoke.
>>>
 I'd be very interested in your solar and battery setup for your off-grid
 home.
>>> The existing home, from the 1950's & extended, only has a little 2 kW
>>> petrol generator. The new roof which will carry the solar arrays goes up
>>> in June, if the framing carpenters turn up on time. (Just off the phone
>>> to 'em half an hour ago.) There's 6 or 7 kW of equator-facing panels,
>>> but the west-facing hipped roof can only take 9 panels, so only 2.5 kW
>>> or so - but still enough to keep pace with a modest aircon.
>>>
>>> The best trick for allowing high power consumption straight from the
>>> arrays, yet limiting battery charge rate to permissible maximum, is to
>>> use a hybrid inverter - they're beginning to become more available now.
>>> The Redflow ZnBr battery has a limited max charge rate (44A), and pretty
>>> much any other does too, e.g. 20A/100AH of capacity for LiFePO4. The
>> hybrid
>>> inverter looks after that while delivering to load first.
>>>
>>> I like the Redflow, as it's a long-life unit, unkillable by 100%
>>> discharge. It does though need that once a fortnight to regenerate, so
>>> it can be handy to have another battery. For off-grid, just one 10 kWh
>>> battery is maybe enough for one occupant, but a second is great for
>>> visitors from the city. But the reflow is about A$14k (US$10k), so I've
>>> even been 

Re: [Emc-users] How come.... Batteries

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Redox flow batteries might be a cheaper alternative. It might be likely not all 
available charging cycles are used for a long lasting battery. 20 cent per kWh 
hour, price for electricity I found in USA is in the range 7 - 23 cents per 
kWh, with an array on roof storage cost might be if you are unlucky storage 
come cost close to bying electricity. I have done calculations there storage 
cost for generated energy where higher than buying new electricity.


On Tue, 14 May 2019 10:36:42 -0700
Chris Albertson  wrote:

> If you are building a battery-based power system and space and weight are
> not issues then what you should care about is the "total watt-hours per
> dollar".
> 
> Here is an example,... You have a 100 amp-hour lead-acid battery at 12
> volts.  If it is lead-acid then you can only discharge to 50% if you want a
> reasonable lifetime.If it is a cheap batery it might last only 100
> charge cycles.   so 50% x 100 cycles x 100 amp-hours x 12 volts is 60 KWH.
>The cheap battery might cost $100 to you pay  $1.60 per KHW for battery
> power based on the replacement cost of the battery.  You can buy a higher
> quality battery for more money but your cost is going to be between $1 and
> $2. per KWH
> 
> So the cost of the battery power is 4 to 8 times high than the cost of
> power from the utility company.
> 
> But what if you buy higher quality batteries?
> 
> A Tesla "Power Wall" cost $6,800 (They used to be $10K)  it is a 13 KW
> capacity and is good for more than 3,000 charge cycles and is actually
> warrantied for 10 years.   It is maintenance free for 10 years.   Use with
> a waentry you have an incentive to use it for the full 3,650 cycles.
> Lets assume you only cycle it 3,000 times. That is under 20 cets per
> KHW for battery power.  It is dramtically cheaper then lead acid.
> 
> This is why Tesla is selling b'zillions fo power wall systems.   If you do
> care about space, these Power Wall units cn be mounted to an exterior wall
> and actually look attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Dave Cole  wrote:
> 
> > I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty of
> > space so I may do a ground level install.
> > It would be a lot easier to maintain.
> >
> > FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant use
> > residential install.
> >
> > I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't
> > want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!
> >
> > Weight isn't an issue.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/9/2019 10:37 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > > On 09.05.19 10:24, Dave Cole wrote:
> > >> Erik,
> > >>
> > >> Do you have a blog going on your build?
> > >
> > > Now that's an idea. All I've started is the seeds of an article for
> > > "Owner Builder" magazine - the editor was interested when we last spoke.
> > >
> > >> I'd be very interested in your solar and battery setup for your off-grid
> > >> home.
> > > The existing home, from the 1950's & extended, only has a little 2 kW
> > > petrol generator. The new roof which will carry the solar arrays goes up
> > > in June, if the framing carpenters turn up on time. (Just off the phone
> > > to 'em half an hour ago.) There's 6 or 7 kW of equator-facing panels,
> > > but the west-facing hipped roof can only take 9 panels, so only 2.5 kW
> > > or so - but still enough to keep pace with a modest aircon.
> > >
> > > The best trick for allowing high power consumption straight from the
> > > arrays, yet limiting battery charge rate to permissible maximum, is to
> > > use a hybrid inverter - they're beginning to become more available now.
> > > The Redflow ZnBr battery has a limited max charge rate (44A), and pretty
> > > much any other does too, e.g. 20A/100AH of capacity for LiFePO4. The
> > hybrid
> > > inverter looks after that while delivering to load first.
> > >
> > > I like the Redflow, as it's a long-life unit, unkillable by 100%
> > > discharge. It does though need that once a fortnight to regenerate, so
> > > it can be handy to have another battery. For off-grid, just one 10 kWh
> > > battery is maybe enough for one occupant, but a second is great for
> > > visitors from the city. But the reflow is about A$14k (US$10k), so I've
> > > even been looking at old technology like NiFe. They're also robust, but
> > > can drink a lot of distilled water, emit quite a bit of hydrogen, and
> > > put out a bit of mist. About 80% energy recovery is common for a lot of
> > > battery chemistries, these included. Li-Ion, or better LiFePO4, are
> > > better efficiency-wise, but cycle life on deep discharge is less. Do
> > > your machining in sunlight, and only run lights, computers, tv, and a
> > > microwaved egg sanger at night, then they'll do well enough, I reckon -
> > > certainly long enough for a better technology to reach a better price.
> > >
> > > We know from laptops that Li-Ion loses capacity with age. The ZnBr unit
> > > is claimed to retain 

Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Chris Albertson]

If you are building a battery-based power system and space and weight are
not issues then what you should care about is the "total watt-hours per
dollar".

Here is an example,... You have a 100 amp-hour lead-acid battery at 12
volts.  If it is lead-acid then you can only discharge to 50% if you want a
reasonable lifetime.If it is a cheap batery it might last only 100
charge cycles.   so 50% x 100 cycles x 100 amp-hours x 12 volts is 60 KWH.
   The cheap battery might cost $100 to you pay  $1.60 per KHW for battery
power based on the replacement cost of the battery.  You can buy a higher
quality battery for more money but your cost is going to be between $1 and
$2. per KWH

So the cost of the battery power is 4 to 8 times high than the cost of
power from the utility company.

But what if you buy higher quality batteries?

A Tesla "Power Wall" cost $6,800 (They used to be $10K)  it is a 13 KW
capacity and is good for more than 3,000 charge cycles and is actually
warrantied for 10 years.   It is maintenance free for 10 years.   Use with
a waentry you have an incentive to use it for the full 3,650 cycles.
Lets assume you only cycle it 3,000 times. That is under 20 cets per
KHW for battery power.  It is dramtically cheaper then lead acid.

This is why Tesla is selling b'zillions fo power wall systems.   If you do
care about space, these Power Wall units cn be mounted to an exterior wall
and actually look attractive.






On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 9:32 AM Dave Cole  wrote:

> I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty of
> space so I may do a ground level install.
> It would be a lot easier to maintain.
>
> FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant use
> residential install.
>
> I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't
> want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!
>
> Weight isn't an issue.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On 5/9/2019 10:37 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > On 09.05.19 10:24, Dave Cole wrote:
> >> Erik,
> >>
> >> Do you have a blog going on your build?
> >
> > Now that's an idea. All I've started is the seeds of an article for
> > "Owner Builder" magazine - the editor was interested when we last spoke.
> >
> >> I'd be very interested in your solar and battery setup for your off-grid
> >> home.
> > The existing home, from the 1950's & extended, only has a little 2 kW
> > petrol generator. The new roof which will carry the solar arrays goes up
> > in June, if the framing carpenters turn up on time. (Just off the phone
> > to 'em half an hour ago.) There's 6 or 7 kW of equator-facing panels,
> > but the west-facing hipped roof can only take 9 panels, so only 2.5 kW
> > or so - but still enough to keep pace with a modest aircon.
> >
> > The best trick for allowing high power consumption straight from the
> > arrays, yet limiting battery charge rate to permissible maximum, is to
> > use a hybrid inverter - they're beginning to become more available now.
> > The Redflow ZnBr battery has a limited max charge rate (44A), and pretty
> > much any other does too, e.g. 20A/100AH of capacity for LiFePO4. The
> hybrid
> > inverter looks after that while delivering to load first.
> >
> > I like the Redflow, as it's a long-life unit, unkillable by 100%
> > discharge. It does though need that once a fortnight to regenerate, so
> > it can be handy to have another battery. For off-grid, just one 10 kWh
> > battery is maybe enough for one occupant, but a second is great for
> > visitors from the city. But the reflow is about A$14k (US$10k), so I've
> > even been looking at old technology like NiFe. They're also robust, but
> > can drink a lot of distilled water, emit quite a bit of hydrogen, and
> > put out a bit of mist. About 80% energy recovery is common for a lot of
> > battery chemistries, these included. Li-Ion, or better LiFePO4, are
> > better efficiency-wise, but cycle life on deep discharge is less. Do
> > your machining in sunlight, and only run lights, computers, tv, and a
> > microwaved egg sanger at night, then they'll do well enough, I reckon -
> > certainly long enough for a better technology to reach a better price.
> >
> > We know from laptops that Li-Ion loses capacity with age. The ZnBr unit
> > is claimed to retain capacity, just losing efficiency. If a few (cheap)
> > extra panels are put in the array(s), then that's pretty much covered.
> >
> > One thing - the hybrid inverter should have two MPPT string inputs - one
> > for each PV array, as their voltage at max power will never be equal,
> > given widely divergent orientation.
> >
> >> You must have a substantial setup to be able to run your AC off your
> battery
> >> bank.
> > I'm hoping to be able to get the roof up in time to qualify for a
> > current A$5k government rebate on batteries. Systems with only 6.3 kWh
> > battery capacity are selling well here for on-grid customers. I'd like
> > twice that, as without that, running the mill for hours after half a 

Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Jon Elson]

On 05/14/2019 11:46 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 14 May 2019 12:03:34 pm John Dammeyer wrote:

Why is there so much resistance to using the Beaglebone?
Because it actually has very little in common with the intel code.  It
may be a good deal, but it also requires learning all about the care and
feeding of a completely different architecture.
Have you ever looked at the X86 machine code?  There is a 
TINY bit of it in low-level drivers that access the parallel 
port. Otherwise, in LinuxCNC, there is ZERO machine code in 
the source.
Even in the above mentioned drivers, it is not actually REAL 
X86 code, but macros that work as if it was, to push and 
pull bytes to/from the parallel port.


I have written machine code for the Bone's PRU for special 
applications.  It is GREAT having a 32-bit CPU that can 
toggle I/O pins in 5 ns.  But, for LinuxCNC motion control, 
you DON'T have to ever look at that.  Charles Steinkuehler 
has done the heavy lifting, and step generators, encoders 
and PWM generators are already implemented.


So, if you want to run a few axes with drives that can be 
controlled with step and direction signals, the Beagle Bone 
is a VERY simple solution.  Small, low cost, flexible.


You need a Bone for $65, a micro-SD card for $12 and maybe a 
stepper "cape", I sell one for $80 that holds up to 6 
Pololu-style stepper drivers.  You can link to it through 
the USB port or through Ethernet, and display the GUI on a 
laptop or desktop.


Some of the resistance is that the Bone uses Machinekit, 
which is a fork of LinuxCNC, and is not as well documented 
or supported as LinuxCNC is.  However, a special distro kit 
is being maintained as a mainline distribution by Robert C. 
Nelson.  You get a micro-SD card, plug it into a USB SD card 
reader, and run a script on RC Nelson's web site, and in 
about 20 minutes, the SD card is ready to insert into the 
Bone and boot it.  You can connect a keyboard, mouse and 
HDMI monitor and set up the network, etc. that way, or use 
some other tools to get it on the net.
For general use, it is ready to go except for the network 
configuration.  For development, you will need to load some 
packages and the LinuxCNC source tree.


Yes, I know my way around the Bone and Machinekit, but 95% 
of what you know about X86 LinuxCNC will be ENTIRELY the same!


Jon



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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[John Dammeyer]

Gene,
> Can this bbb support at least two dozen or so bi-di gpio's, 4 or 5
> stepgens, at least 1 pwm, and at least 3 abx encoders?  Drive a
> 1920x1280 full color monitor at a frame rate above 5/sec? At what total
> cost?

The BBB has more I/O on it compared to the Pi and includes A/D.  Where it 
really fails is that the HDMI isn't well set up for 1920x1080P HDMI.  As a 
result the graphics side is a bit clunky.

But then LinuxCNC or the original EMACs ran on a much smaller PC.  MachineKit 
on the BBB does run with the Xylotex Cape.  I think for anyone wanting CNC with 
a small module it's a far better starting point.  

And realistically how many people are really working at the low level where the 
processor architecture matters? If you want lots of I/Os then SPI can do this.  
I think there are 3 quadrature inputs on the BBB processor but it may be only 
two.  Not sure there.

I've done a pseudo real time project with the Pi but to make it work I had to 
use  a Microchip PIC32 to capture and buffer the first 20 seconds of high speed 
CAN messages along with time stamping when they arrived.  Then, when the Pi was 
finally and we'd acquired the GPS Time of Day  awake I used SPI to bring the 
stored messages into the PI, retroactively adjust the TOD to match real time 
and save to files.  A different task ran in the background reading the  files 
and posting them up to a cloud database.

The point is, to do what we needed, the Pi needed an external co-processor.  
The BBB wouldn't have been any better since the bottleneck is the Linux boot 
time.  Only dedicated hardware is there within milliseconds of power applied 
ready to work.

That's not needed for a CNC system but waiting a minute after you turn on power 
is annoying.  
John




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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Jon Elson]

On 05/14/2019 11:03 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:
Why is there so much resistance to using the Beaglebone? 
Or perhaps to say it another way, why would anyone even 
want to use a Pi when the Beagle has 1GHz processor and 
the two co-processors?
Well, yes!  The Bone, as supported by Linux, has pretty 
crummy graphics capability.  (There is apparently a powerful 
graphics engine in the chip, but TI won't open any of the 
details, so it can't be used under Linux.)  Still, if you 
don't load massive 3-D toolpaths into LinuxCNC, it works fine.
With large toolpaths, the graphical preview window bogs the 
whole GUI down.


But, the I/O capability and the PRUs for step generation and 
PWM is quite awesome.

It sure works for me!

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 May 2019 12:03:34 pm John Dammeyer wrote:

> > On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 14:26, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > > If it existed, the ideal thing would be the 7C80.
> > >
> > > But thats for a pi.
> >
> > Yes, and this thread is about a Pi variant
> >
> > --
> > atp
>
> Why is there so much resistance to using the Beaglebone?

Because it actually has very little in common with the intel code.  It 
may be a good deal, but it also requires learning all about the care and 
feeding of a completely different architecture. At my age, staying 
familiar enough with even 3 is a chore, and having first hand experience 
with the pi's shortcomings, I'd rather go back to a devil I know better. 

So while running this thing with a pi says I'm not allergic to saying 
screw you world, its an experience in discovering, and trying to work 
around it warts, the biggest one being that internal usb-2 hub thats in 
series with all but the spi and radio (wifi) interface.  When someone 
comes up with a radio protocol the smartphones can't hack into in 
sub-second times then let me know, otherwise the radios in the pi, and 
all the radios in the routers and switches are off and will stay that 
way at the coyote.den. 

>  Or perhaps to say it another way, why would anyone even want to use a
> Pi when the Beagle has 1GHz processor and the two co-processors?

The pi has 2, running at up to 1.4. But the gpu is 1st gen mali, and no 
support in the one realtime kernel that almost works.

Can this bbb support at least two dozen or so bi-di gpio's, 4 or 5 
stepgens, at least 1 pwm, and at least 3 abx encoders?  Drive a 
1920x1280 full color monitor at a frame rate above 5/sec? At what total 
cost?

> What is it with the Pi and the closed architecture that makes it more
> attractive?  Just curious.

The closed architecture, and pi foundations relative lack of support are 
I find a huge impediment. So IMO it was fun proving it could be done, 
but the experiment can come to an end when I have the time to do it over 
with something else. and it may as well be a devil I already know.


> Because when you think about it, the whole point of Linux (open
> source) is that it can't really go out of date.   Build something with
> a Pi clone and depending on the free market that Pi clone board may no
> longer be there.  For an individual user maybe it's not a big deal.
>
> The Replicape (no longer available) for the Beagle is now being
> upgraded to holding the processor (etc) and the motor drivers.  One
> board for both.  In the long run as long as the processor is available
> the module to run a 3D printer or small mill is then available.  But
> whether all that can be build less expensively compared to a COTS BBB
> is different question.
>
> John
>
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] How come....

[Dave Cole]

I've been planning to put up an array on my roof.  But I have plenty of 
space so I may do a ground level install.

It would be a lot easier to maintain.

FLA batteries seem to be the general recommendation for a constant use 
residential install.


I've had chargers trash batteries when they failed.  I sure wouldn't 
want that to happen to $10K worth of Lithium batteries!


Weight isn't an issue.

Dave



On 5/9/2019 10:37 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:

On 09.05.19 10:24, Dave Cole wrote:

Erik,

Do you have a blog going on your build?
  
Now that's an idea. All I've started is the seeds of an article for

"Owner Builder" magazine - the editor was interested when we last spoke.


I'd be very interested in your solar and battery setup for your off-grid
home.

The existing home, from the 1950's & extended, only has a little 2 kW
petrol generator. The new roof which will carry the solar arrays goes up
in June, if the framing carpenters turn up on time. (Just off the phone
to 'em half an hour ago.) There's 6 or 7 kW of equator-facing panels,
but the west-facing hipped roof can only take 9 panels, so only 2.5 kW
or so - but still enough to keep pace with a modest aircon.

The best trick for allowing high power consumption straight from the
arrays, yet limiting battery charge rate to permissible maximum, is to
use a hybrid inverter - they're beginning to become more available now.
The Redflow ZnBr battery has a limited max charge rate (44A), and pretty
much any other does too, e.g. 20A/100AH of capacity for LiFePO4. The hybrid
inverter looks after that while delivering to load first.

I like the Redflow, as it's a long-life unit, unkillable by 100%
discharge. It does though need that once a fortnight to regenerate, so
it can be handy to have another battery. For off-grid, just one 10 kWh
battery is maybe enough for one occupant, but a second is great for
visitors from the city. But the reflow is about A$14k (US$10k), so I've
even been looking at old technology like NiFe. They're also robust, but
can drink a lot of distilled water, emit quite a bit of hydrogen, and
put out a bit of mist. About 80% energy recovery is common for a lot of
battery chemistries, these included. Li-Ion, or better LiFePO4, are
better efficiency-wise, but cycle life on deep discharge is less. Do
your machining in sunlight, and only run lights, computers, tv, and a
microwaved egg sanger at night, then they'll do well enough, I reckon -
certainly long enough for a better technology to reach a better price.

We know from laptops that Li-Ion loses capacity with age. The ZnBr unit
is claimed to retain capacity, just losing efficiency. If a few (cheap)
extra panels are put in the array(s), then that's pretty much covered.

One thing - the hybrid inverter should have two MPPT string inputs - one
for each PV array, as their voltage at max power will never be equal,
given widely divergent orientation.


You must have a substantial setup to be able to run your AC off your battery
bank.

I'm hoping to be able to get the roof up in time to qualify for a
current A$5k government rebate on batteries. Systems with only 6.3 kWh
battery capacity are selling well here for on-grid customers. I'd like
twice that, as without that, running the mill for hours after half a week
of overcast winter days could mean arcing the generator up for a charging
burst. But a litre of petrol now and then is a darn sight cheaper than a
big battery.


What do you do for domestic water?  A deep well?

For 55 years it's just been rainwater tanks. I'll be putting in another
90,000 litres of tanks, to catch it when it does come. There'll be
nearly 400 m² of roof all up. (But yes, years ago in a big drought it
really was bathe the baby in a bucket of water, use that to wash her
clothes, then wash the lino floor with it, then put it on the few garden
plants you could keep going.) The concern is that a tight rain deficit
might be shaping up to be the new norm for SE Australia, not improving
at all while we go from the current 1°C warming, through 1.5°C maybe as
early as 2030, to 2°C a bit later. (Accelerated warming at the poles
does not bear looking at, unless you've had a stiff drink first.)

The neighbour had a drill rig in before easter, to drill for stock
water. It was expected around 70 feet down. I haven't heard the results.
That's a finite resource though, only buying limited time. Slabs of
India is hundreds of feet down now, and heading for a brick wall. More
roof, more tanks, and live on what precipitates is more viable for
longer.

Erik


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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 17:06, John Dammeyer  wrote:

>
> What is it with the Pi and the closed architecture that makes it more
> attractive?  Just curious.
>

I use neither, so at least I am consistent. I am just trying to answer
questions and add to the discussion.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[John Dammeyer]

> On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 14:26, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> >
> > > If it existed, the ideal thing would be the 7C80.
> >
> > But thats for a pi.
> 
> 
> Yes, and this thread is about a Pi variant
> 
> --
> atp

Why is there so much resistance to using the Beaglebone?
 Or perhaps to say it another way, why would anyone even want to use a Pi when 
the Beagle has 1GHz processor and the two co-processors?

What is it with the Pi and the closed architecture that makes it more 
attractive?  Just curious.

Because when you think about it, the whole point of Linux (open source) is that 
it can't really go out of date.   Build something with a Pi clone and depending 
on the free market that Pi clone board may no longer be there.  For an 
individual user maybe it's not a big deal.  

The Replicape (no longer available) for the Beagle is now being upgraded to 
holding the processor (etc) and the motor drivers.  One board for both.  In the 
long run as long as the processor is available the module to run a 3D printer 
or small mill is then available.  But whether all that can be build less 
expensively compared to a COTS BBB is different question.

John



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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 May 2019 09:45:44 am andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 14:26, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > If it existed, the ideal thing would be the 7C80.
> >
> > But thats for a pi.
>
> Yes, and this thread is about a Pi variant

Not really since its an intel atom cpu made to somewhat emulate the pi in 
its outside world connections. But if the ethernet plug has an internal 
usb hub between it and the cpu like the real pi does, it will wind up 
being a non-starter. That usb-2 hub in the pi is a serious data 
bottleneck that the spi and wifi interfaces doesn't have. An internal 
usb-3 hub would be a different kettle of fish. but the propaganda we can 
see today leaves out enough details to properly judge it. And I don't 
think thats an accident. We will have to spend the money to find out.

I'd also bet it has a UEFI bios, and our install iso's have no clue how 
to deal with that, I bricked the best odroid made at the time, a c2, 
trying. I am told a jtag programmer could bring it back but that's 2x 
the cost of the odroid, at about $150 for the whole kit, why bother?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 14:26, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> > If it existed, the ideal thing would be the 7C80.
>
> But thats for a pi.


Yes, and this thread is about a Pi variant

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 May 2019 06:53:37 am andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 06:22, Mark Johnsen  wrote:
> > With the onboard Gigabyte ethernet and wifi, you could probably go
> > ethernet to a 7i80 ethernet, 7i92 ethernet, or 7i76e  ethernet card.
>
> Pi Ethernet is on the USB bus, so can't be used.
> This might be different, of course, being a different architecture.
>
> If it existed, the ideal thing would be the 7C80.

But thats for a pi.  And Peters site won't let me access the manuals this 
morning for some unk reason.  As it was shown last night, I saw the 
ethernet support on most of that line was limited to ten Mbit. 100Mb 
would be MUCH better.  And since the 7i76d is designed to be a daughter 
to a 5i25, and has its own SSI buss for more I/O, I looked without 
success for an accessory card that would give me the extra encoders. Or 
maybe if this has a pci buss skot, I could used the 5i25/7i76 combo if 
Peter could put together a 5i25 file putting its two encoders on P2. I 
need at least 3 to run that lathe, and the 7i90 gives me 4.  And I 
already have it even though this copy has been noise damaged, there is 
enough I/O left to do it nicely.

All in due time Andy, the pi hasn't died yet. And this isn't shipping 
either.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 06:22, Mark Johnsen  wrote:

>
> With the onboard Gigabyte ethernet and wifi, you could probably go ethernet
> to a 7i80 ethernet, 7i92 ethernet, or 7i76e  ethernet card.
>

Pi Ethernet is on the USB bus, so can't be used.
This might be different, of course, being a different architecture.

If it existed, the ideal thing would be the 7C80.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed
for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Atomic pi

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 14 May 2019 12:51:16 am Mark Johnsen wrote:

> > Not yet, sure looks interesting though. What does the whole kit, bob
> > and pdu shown cost?
> >
> > Maybe it could be our next D525MW but with an spi interface to a
> > 7i90HD?
>
> Amazon shows an availability date of 5/30.
>
> With the onboard Gigabyte ethernet and wifi, you could probably go
> ethernet to a 7i80 ethernet, 7i92 ethernet, or 7i76e  ethernet card.
>
> The whole enchilada with 2x boards was $108 on the dataloggers site.
>
I'll have to measure the box I have the pi<->7i90,3x 7i42's in, and see 
if I can find room for it.  Since the pi version of LCNC has been thrown 
under the bus due to the poor reliability of the odroid that was 
building it, I'll have to either start building LCNC from sources, or 
change back to something like this to run my Sheldon lathe.  If my other 
business takes off, I should be able to do it with something like this.

The 7i90 with its stack of 7i42's works very well, and gives 72 i/o lines 
to run the lathe with all on those little green screw terminals, very 
handy to wire up. The 7i76e doesn't need the 7i42's for noise 
protection, but the d version I put into the 6040 build doesn't have 
enough encoders to do what I'm doing with the pi-7i90 combo. I have a 
pair of the $20 MPJA dials on the front of the apron for x-z jog drive 
since cranks were removed in the conversion, with variable jog per click 
set up in my .hal, feeding two of the encoders in the 7i90, but the 
7i76e only has one encoder unless I can find a 5i25 file that puts 2 
more on the P2 connector, not in used ATM as the 7i76d is handling it 
all and still has some i/o left. So I'd better checkout the other two 
cards you mentioned to see if duplicate resources are available. I just 
did, and the 7i90 is it, no other board or board combo does enough 
encoders AND stepgens, I'd like to use the 7i76D, but I'd have to see if 
Peter could assemble a PROB_RFX2 file with 2 more encoders on p2. Or has 
a daughter card for the 7i76d that would supply the encoders.

How many ethernet ports does it have, the pix aren't that explicit, all 
my machines have at least 100Mbit net connections to the world thru my 
main router too.  It seems rather a kluge to hit the gigabyte switch in 
the garage just to hit another cable coming back to an e-net mesa card 
an inch away. If it only has one port, what happens to the connection 
latency when there is traffic from the other 3 machines out there now if 
such a hookup involving that 8 port switch was done? And what happens if 
that switch has to talk to a 100Mb target at the same time. I might have 
to upgrade all my net stuff to gigabyte. I think the 2 D525MW's have 
gigabyte ports, but the old Dell running the G0704 might be 100Mb. My 
net connection is only 10Mb down.  None of that appears to be a problem, 
but we aren't controlling heavy machinery with it either.

Thanks Mark, for materiel for future ploting.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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