Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[hubert]

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice 
requested
Date:   Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:30:03 -0500
From:   hubert <h...@hbahr.org>
To: andy pugh <bodge...@gmail.com>



On 3/27/17 4:55 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 March 2017 at 19:11, hubert <h...@hbahr.org> wrote:
>> I see what you mean.  Section 2-2-3 implies that the driver is receiving
>> from the actuator 2-phase pulse trains plus a phase-Z pulse signal.  In
>> addition the absolute encoder  sends  absolute signals.  We can only sit
>> here and speculate until we can see what is actually on the encoder
>> cable.  The unit is scheduled to be delivered Monday.  Until then all I
>> can do is try to dream up a method to rotate the servo while reading the
>> encoder output.   Are you familiar with any techniques of serially
>> encoding 2-phase pulse trains?
> I had an interesting Sunday, I met up with Rene Hopf from the STMBL
> project at the London Hackspace.
> I brought a Baldor servo and my FHA25B. Rene brought some STMBL
> drives. At the hackspace was a Thermo Electron robot arm powered by
> FHA17-sized harmonic drives.
>
> Rene was able to get both my servos running very well with the STMBL.
> STMBL interfaces extremely easy with LinuxCNC. It presents as a
> smart-serial device, so you just plug it in to a Mesa card with an
> ethernet cable and it creates HAL pins for position command, and feeds
> back other data. It also seems to be extremely good at auto-tuning to
> the servo motor. All in all a very compelling "product":
> https://github.com/rene-dev/stmbl
>
> We did not attempt to move the robot, however Rene took one of the
> encoders from the robot home with him to experiment. They appear to be
> Tamagawa, and to communicate with Manchester-encoded RS485. (the pin
> names in the Tamagawa documentation match those in the Harmonic drive
> spec for your actuator). Rene seemed fairly confident that he would be
> able to add Tamagawa to the STMBL software. However this might not be
> of any immediate use to you, as the STMBL is currently only really a
> DIY project.
I have located a couple of drives that are compatible with C version of
the drives.  Once they arrive I believe I will be able to capture the
signals.  I think this document
http://www.copleycontrols.com/Motion/pdf/encoder-guide.pdf provides more
insight (page 29).  It looks like it may be the Panasonic Incremental A
Format.  Anything I can do assist the STMBL project is of interest.  At
this time assembly of a PCB is not of interest (been there, done that).
I do fabricate small interface boards when necessary but prefer to buy.
> (However, I came away with a beta sample and will be using that in my
> machine, though I have committed to adding extra Hall Sensor support
> to the software in exchange)
>

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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[Andrew]

2017-03-26 7:12 GMT+03:00 hubert:

>
> > You might ask Copley Controls if Xenus supports that encoder type.
> Thanks for bringing this up.
>I will report back here how this works out.  Reading the user guide
> for the REL and its software I found some references to Copley,  The
> data sheets look like replicas of the Xenus XTL and User guide for their
> HDM software looks like the Copley CME2 software.  The links from the
> Copeley Controls Data sheet on "HD SYSTEMS FHA Series Rotary Actuator
> with AC Brushless motor With Copley XTL Xenus Amplifier" to HD systems
> motor data files no longer worked, but I was able to locate them on the
> HDM site.  They included a file for my specific Actuator Model number so
> things are looking good.  So hopefully in a couple of weeks I will have
> the answers.  In the worst case I will be out some shipping fee's if I
> decide to return every thing.
>

Once I had a couple of similar actuators, iirc SHA 25, but could not find a
suitable drive back then, so I had to get rid of them. Now I have a Xenus
(which can drive almost any common motor, and Plus version supports even
more encoders) but don't have those actuators any more. So I'll be waiting
to see how it turns out.
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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[hubert]

On 3/25/17 2:46 PM, Andrew wrote:
> 2017-03-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 hubert :
>
>> I am looking for recommendations and/or advice for driving a
>> Harmonic-drive-systems FHA-40C-100-E250 Actuator that I will be using as
>> part of the 4th AXIS on my Mill.  The motor appears to be about a 1KW
>> unit with max RPM of 3000 and has an encoder that provides 2500 pulses
>> per revolution.  Harmonic-drive-systems manuals do not give instructions
>> on how to set their drivers for the specific Actuator but say use one
>> that is preset for that actuator. Furthermore the Driver technology
>> looks a couple of decades old since the support software was written for
>> Windows 98, ME or NT. They do have the more modern REL driver, but I
>> have been unable to find the cost for it.
>>
>> I might upset you a bit
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/371870219334
> Not sure this drive exactly fits your motor though, but it should.
>
> But here is a similar drive (I'm sure that Copley Controls make REL drives
> for HD)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262843373444
>
> You might ask Copley Controls if Xenus supports that encoder type.
Thanks for bringing this up.
   I will report back here how this works out.  Reading the user guide 
for the REL and its software I found some references to Copley,  The 
data sheets look like replicas of the Xenus XTL and User guide for their 
HDM software looks like the Copley CME2 software.  The links from the 
Copeley Controls Data sheet on "HD SYSTEMS FHA Series Rotary Actuator 
with AC Brushless motor With Copley XTL Xenus Amplifier" to HD systems 
motor data files no longer worked, but I was able to locate them on the 
HDM site.  They included a file for my specific Actuator Model number so 
things are looking good.  So hopefully in a couple of weeks I will have 
the answers.  In the worst case I will be out some shipping fee's if I 
decide to return every thing.
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>


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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[hubert]

On 3/25/17 2:46 PM, Andrew wrote:
> 2017-03-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 hubert :
>
>> I am looking for recommendations and/or advice for driving a
>> Harmonic-drive-systems FHA-40C-100-E250 Actuator that I will be using as
>> part of the 4th AXIS on my Mill.  The motor appears to be about a 1KW
>> unit with max RPM of 3000 and has an encoder that provides 2500 pulses
>> per revolution.  Harmonic-drive-systems manuals do not give instructions
>> on how to set their drivers for the specific Actuator but say use one
>> that is preset for that actuator. Furthermore the Driver technology
>> looks a couple of decades old since the support software was written for
>> Windows 98, ME or NT. They do have the more modern REL driver, but I
>> have been unable to find the cost for it.
>>
>> I might upset you a bit
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/371870219334
> Not sure this drive exactly fits your motor though, but it should.
I had seen this, but since it was sold before I even started looking all 
it gave me was hope that a solution would be found.
>
> But here is a similar drive (I'm sure that Copley Controls make REL drives
> for HD)
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262843373444
I followed up on this, it had links to the Copley site that provided a 
data sheet that claimed it worked for my actuator. Placed the Order.  
When the Drive arrives, I will learn how to use it.
>
> You might ask Copley Controls if Xenus supports that encoder type.
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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[Andrew]

2017-03-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 hubert :

> I am looking for recommendations and/or advice for driving a
> Harmonic-drive-systems FHA-40C-100-E250 Actuator that I will be using as
> part of the 4th AXIS on my Mill.  The motor appears to be about a 1KW
> unit with max RPM of 3000 and has an encoder that provides 2500 pulses
> per revolution.  Harmonic-drive-systems manuals do not give instructions
> on how to set their drivers for the specific Actuator but say use one
> that is preset for that actuator. Furthermore the Driver technology
> looks a couple of decades old since the support software was written for
> Windows 98, ME or NT. They do have the more modern REL driver, but I
> have been unable to find the cost for it.
>
> I might upset you a bit
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371870219334
Not sure this drive exactly fits your motor though, but it should.

But here is a similar drive (I'm sure that Copley Controls make REL drives
for HD)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262843373444

You might ask Copley Controls if Xenus supports that encoder type.
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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[andy pugh]

On 25 March 2017 at 19:11, hubert  wrote:
>  Are you familiar with any techniques of serially
> encoding 2-phase pulse trains?

BiSS, EnDAT, SSI are all serial communication protocols used by some encoders.

LinuxCNC has drivers for BiSS and SSI for the Hostmot2 modules:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html#encoder

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[hubert]

On 3/25/17 5:52 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 25 March 2017 at 04:08, hubert  wrote:
>> I am looking for recommendations and/or advice for driving a
>> Harmonic-drive-systems FHA-40C-100-E250 Actuator that I will be using as
>> part of the 4th AXIS on my Mill.  The motor appears to be about a 1KW
>> unit with max RPM of 3000 and has an encoder that provides 2500 pulses
>> per revolution.
> The HD web site only seems to list the US250 encoder currently.
> The E250 encoder is mentioned in this version of the manual
> https://www.hds.co.jp/products/data/pdf/technicaldocument/rotary/FHA-C_Series_Manual_en_0211-1R-TFHAC-E.pdf
> Which gives the encoder pinout:
>
> Color   Signal Ref
> Red +5VPower
> Black   0V  Power
> Yellow  SD Serial
> Blue /SDSerial
> Shield   FG
>
> But doesn't give the data format for the serial data.
>
> Looking at the manual for the recommended driver: ( HA-655-4-200 )
> http://www.harmonicdrive.net/_hd/content/catalogs/pdf/ha-655_manual.pdf
> There is a fair bit of information about the format of the encoder
> signals _out_ of the drive, but very little about what is going in to
> the drive on CN1.
>
> I think you might need to get the drive hooked up to an oscilloscope
> to work out what data format is being used.
>
> I think that despite being called "incremental" it must actually be
> single-turn absolute data as there are no separate commutation
> outputs.
>
I see what you mean.  Section 2-2-3 implies that the driver is receiving 
from the actuator 2-phase pulse trains plus a phase-Z pulse signal.  In 
addition the absolute encoder  sends  absolute signals.  We can only sit 
here and speculate until we can see what is actually on the encoder 
cable.  The unit is scheduled to be delivered Monday.  Until then all I 
can do is try to dream up a method to rotate the servo while reading the 
encoder output.   Are you familiar with any techniques of serially 
encoding 2-phase pulse trains?


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Re: [Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[andy pugh]

On 25 March 2017 at 04:08, hubert  wrote:
> I am looking for recommendations and/or advice for driving a
> Harmonic-drive-systems FHA-40C-100-E250 Actuator that I will be using as
> part of the 4th AXIS on my Mill.  The motor appears to be about a 1KW
> unit with max RPM of 3000 and has an encoder that provides 2500 pulses
> per revolution.

The HD web site only seems to list the US250 encoder currently.
The E250 encoder is mentioned in this version of the manual
https://www.hds.co.jp/products/data/pdf/technicaldocument/rotary/FHA-C_Series_Manual_en_0211-1R-TFHAC-E.pdf
Which gives the encoder pinout:

Color   Signal Ref
Red +5VPower
Black   0V  Power
Yellow  SD Serial
Blue /SDSerial
Shield   FG

But doesn't give the data format for the serial data.

Looking at the manual for the recommended driver: ( HA-655-4-200 )
http://www.harmonicdrive.net/_hd/content/catalogs/pdf/ha-655_manual.pdf
There is a fair bit of information about the format of the encoder
signals _out_ of the drive, but very little about what is going in to
the drive on CN1.

I think you might need to get the drive hooked up to an oscilloscope
to work out what data format is being used.

I think that despite being called "incremental" it must actually be
single-turn absolute data as there are no separate commutation
outputs.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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[Emc-users] AC servo driver, Recommendations/advice requested

[hubert]

I am looking for recommendations and/or advice for driving a 
Harmonic-drive-systems FHA-40C-100-E250 Actuator that I will be using as 
part of the 4th AXIS on my Mill.  The motor appears to be about a 1KW 
unit with max RPM of 3000 and has an encoder that provides 2500 pulses 
per revolution.  Harmonic-drive-systems manuals do not give instructions 
on how to set their drivers for the specific Actuator but say use one 
that is preset for that actuator. Furthermore the Driver technology 
looks a couple of decades old since the support software was written for 
Windows 98, ME or NT. They do have the more modern REL driver, but I 
have been unable to find the cost for it.

One drive I am considering is the SureServo SVA-2100.  The quoted price 
new with 2 Year warranty is very close to or lower than the prices 
listed for used HA-655-4-200 recommended in the Actuator manual.

I do have a spare 750W driver that came with my spare Mill servo, that I 
plan on using to test function.

I prefer to use step and direction to feed the driver, and would rather 
buy than build.

Hubert

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