Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 07 June 2021 09:45:55 Scott Harwell via Emc-users wrote:

>  Gene,
> A screenshot from Sourceforge EMC users page. It shows 1 Saturday,
> nothing Sunday and 12 Monday. This looks eight with the time
> differences. Compared to 2020 we don't have near as much to say!
>
> Scott
>
But I was getting msgs from my isp that the message was delayed.

Delivery Status Notification (Delay)
 From: Postmaster 
 To: ghesk...@shentel.net
 
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed.

   emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net


Which I took to mean the listserver at sourceforge was there, but wasn't 
accepting msgs.  They were, in the first case, over 24 hours before I 
got the echo back from sourceforge. I normally get it back on the next 
fetchmail scan, at 2 minute intervals, or less since my setup treats 
outgooing and incoming as separate functions.  No synch between them.
 
>
> On Monday, June 7, 2021, 2:44:36 AM CDT, Gene Heskett
>  wrote:
>
>  On Monday 07 June 2021 00:23:41 Scott Harwell via Emc-users wrote:
> >  Gene,
> > Five today nothing Saturday.
> > Scott
>
> Same here, so I sent a PM to Seb, and it came back a few hours later.
>
> >    On Sunday, June 6, 2021, 9:00:33 PM CDT, Gene Heskett
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  On Monday 08 March 2021 12:08:42 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> >
> > The mailing lists seem to be down. I've made 3 posts in the last 24
> > hours, getting msg delayed info msgs from my isp's server, but no
> > echo's from the lists.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Scott Harwell via Emc-users]

 "This looks right". Damn spellcheck, I can screw up enough without help.

Scott


On Monday, June 7, 2021, 8:47:57 AM CDT, Scott Harwell via Emc-users 
 wrote:  
 
  Gene,
A screenshot from Sourceforge EMC users page. It shows 1 Saturday, nothing 
Sunday and 12 Monday. This looks eight with the time differences. Compared to 
2020 we don't have near as much to say!

Scott



    On Monday, June 7, 2021, 2:44:36 AM CDT, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:  
 
 On Monday 07 June 2021 00:23:41 Scott Harwell via Emc-users wrote:

>  Gene,
> Five today nothing Saturday.
> Scott
>
Same here, so I sent a PM to Seb, and it came back a few hours later.
>
>    On Sunday, June 6, 2021, 9:00:33 PM CDT, Gene Heskett
>  wrote:
>
>  On Monday 08 March 2021 12:08:42 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
>
> The mailing lists seem to be down. I've made 3 posts in the last 24
> hours, getting msg delayed info msgs from my isp's server, but no
> echo's from the lists.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 07 June 2021 00:23:41 Scott Harwell via Emc-users wrote:

>  Gene,
> Five today nothing Saturday.
> Scott
>
Same here, so I sent a PM to Seb, and it came back a few hours later.
>
> On Sunday, June 6, 2021, 9:00:33 PM CDT, Gene Heskett
>  wrote:
>
>  On Monday 08 March 2021 12:08:42 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
>
> The mailing lists seem to be down. I've made 3 posts in the last 24
> hours, getting msg delayed info msgs from my isp's server, but no
> echo's from the lists.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andrew beck]

Working here

On Mon, Jun 7, 2021, 2:01 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Monday 08 March 2021 12:08:42 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
>
> The mailing lists seem to be down. I've made 3 posts in the last 24
> hours, getting msg delayed info msgs from my isp's server, but no echo's
> from the lists.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 March 2021 12:08:42 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:

The mailing lists seem to be down. I've made 3 posts in the last 24 
hours, getting msg delayed info msgs from my isp's server, but no echo's 
from the lists.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 3/8/21 11:11 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 17:08, Sebastian Kuzminsky
 wrote:


Yes, although the words in buildbot language are different.  "2000.docs"
is a builder (an abstract runner of build recipes).  It runs on a
buildslave (a computer).


Though a friend who works for the Linux Foundation has mentioned that
they are now called "buildworkers". Which is a bit tidier than
"enslaved virtual machines"


Yep - though the version of buildbot we're on is so old they're called 
buildslaves still...



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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 17:08, Sebastian Kuzminsky
 wrote:

> Yes, although the words in buildbot language are different.  "2000.docs"
> is a builder (an abstract runner of build recipes).  It runs on a
> buildslave (a computer).

Though a friend who works for the Linux Foundation has mentioned that
they are now called "buildworkers". Which is a bit tidier than
"enslaved virtual machines"


> I triggered a rebuild of 2.8, and the HTML manpages for both halui
> (groff) and sendkeys (asciidoc) now correctly have hal pin names with
> '-' (u2d, "hyphen-minus").

Excellent. It did feel like something best fixed in the tools rather
than be editing the source files.

Thanks.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 3/8/21 5:49 AM, andy pugh wrote:

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 07:20, Sebastian Kuzminsky
 wrote:


This will make the docs on wlo copy-paste-able, but it won't help anyone
who wants to build our docs on Wheezy.  I can live with that.


Anyone still building docs using Wheezy probably transcribes them to
parchment with a quill pen anyway.

This is a case of switching the 2000.documentation buildslave to a new OS?


Yes, although the words in buildbot language are different.  "2000.docs" 
is a builder (an abstract runner of build recipes).  It runs on a 
buildslave (a computer).


I've moved the 2000.docs builder from the wheezy-amd64-clang buildslave 
to the buster-rtpreempt-amd64 buildslave.


I triggered a rebuild of 2.8, and the HTML manpages for both halui 
(groff) and sendkeys (asciidoc) now correctly have hal pin names with 
'-' (u2d, "hyphen-minus").



--
Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 3/8/21 12:55 AM, John Dammeyer wrote:

I'm a bit confused here.  When I look at
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/config/ini-homing.html
and the section:
6.14. Inhibiting Homing

These two lines are in a 'code box' and appear to be ASCII with a 0x2D.

setp home_sequence_mux.in0 -1
net hsequence_select => motion.homing-inhibit


Regular asciidoc documents are produced by different software than the 
HTML manpages we were talking about, and have different formatting 
rules.  And code boxes (like what you pasted) have special rules even 
within that context.


What you pasted looks correct, like you could paste it into a .hal file 
or halcmd and it would do the right thing.  I'm glad that part is 
working well!




Cutting and pasting this into a vintage CodeWright "(c) 1991 to 2003" shows 
it's simple ASCII.


It's technically probably UTF8, which shares both its byte-stream 
encoding and display appearance with 7-bit ASCII.



--
Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 07:58, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> Isn't that a requirement for documents?  If it's a code example why would it 
> be created to be anything but 7 bit ASCII?  I guess I'm wondering if the 
> fault doesn't lie with 'groff' but with the authors who don't take the time 
> to do it right?

How do you propose to insert a code box in groff?

If you find a way, do you fancy going through 400 groff manpages and
doing it in all appropriate places?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2021 at 07:20, Sebastian Kuzminsky
 wrote:

> This will make the docs on wlo copy-paste-able, but it won't help anyone
> who wants to build our docs on Wheezy.  I can live with that.

Anyone still building docs using Wheezy probably transcribes them to
parchment with a quill pen anyway.

This is a case of switching the 2000.documentation buildslave to a new OS?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[John Dammeyer]

I'm a bit confused here.  When I look at 
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/config/ini-homing.html
and the section:
6.14. Inhibiting Homing

These two lines are in a 'code box' and appear to be ASCII with a 0x2D.

setp home_sequence_mux.in0 -1
net hsequence_select => motion.homing-inhibit

Cutting and pasting this into a vintage CodeWright "(c) 1991 to 2003" shows 
it's simple ASCII.  

Isn't that a requirement for documents?  If it's a code example why would it be 
created to be anything but 7 bit ASCII?  I guess I'm wondering if the fault 
doesn't lie with 'groff' but with the authors who don't take the time to do it 
right?

If this were actually an email with HTML format any code fragments I insert 
would be done with courier font.  Pretty sure it doesn't have fancy characters. 
 Especially if they are cut and pasted from say a HAL file from the linux 
system.

Or am I missing something?

John




> -Original Message-
> From: Sebastian Kuzminsky [mailto:seb.kuzmin...@gmail.com]
> Sent: March-07-21 11:21 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC); andy pugh
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help
> 
> Our docs build system deals with manpages written directly in groff, and
> also manpages written in asciidoc. asciidoc manpages get built into
> regular groff manpages using the asciidoc tools.
> 
> All manpages, both the native groff ones and the ones built from
> asciidoc, are converted to HTML using the HTML output mode of the groff
> tools.
> 
> There's a bit of complexity in how groff handles hyphens and minus
> signs.  The documentation and the implementation of this is evolving
> fairly actively, with non-trivial differences between groff 1.21 (in
> Wheezy) and groff 1.22.4 (in Buster, and currently the latest released
> version).
> 
> groff 1.21 in Wheezy renders '-' (ascii/utf8 0x2d, the character named
> "hyphen-minus") in the input to '-' (ascii/utf8 0x2d) in the HTML
> output, and renders '\-' in the input as '' in the HTML output.
> My web browser renders '' as '-' (u2212, named "minus"), so
> copy/paste doesn't work.
> 
> groff 1.22.4 in Buster renders both '-' (2d) and '\-' (escaped 2d) in
> the input to '-' (ascii/utf8 0x2d, which is what we want) in the HTML
> output.
> 
> The documentation for the groff 1.23 release candidate has this to say:
> 
> https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/groff_char.7.html
> 
> > The hyphen-minus is a particularly unfortunate case of
> > overloading.  Its awkward name in ISO 8859 and later standards
> > reflects the many conflicting purposes to which it had already
> > been put in the 1980s, including a hyphen, a minus sign, and
> > (alone or in repetition) dashes of varying widths.  For best
> > results in groff, use the character in input without an escape
> > only to mean a hyphen, as in the phrase �long-term�.  For a minus
> > sign in running prose or a Unix command-line option dash, use \-
> > (or \[-] in groff if you find it helps the clarity of the source
> > document).
> 
> The groff(1) manpage for both Wheezy and Buster, themselves written in
> groff of course, use '\-' (escaped 0x2d) for the dashes that precede
> command-line arguments. I figure this gives us a pretty good idea of how
> the groff people (or at least the people who wrote the manpage) think
> about it.
> 
> And finally it's worth nothing that when asciidoc writes groff, it
> escapes the hyphen-minus character.
> 
> So based on all this I believe our groff manpages should use "-" (ascii
> 0x2d, u2d, "hyphen-minus") when we want a hyphen (probably rarely) and
> "\-" (ascii/utf8 sequence 0x5c 0x2d, an escaped hyphen-minus) when we
> want the actual hyphen-minus character in the output (like for
> command-line arguments and hal pins).
> 
> We should switch our official docs build from Wheezy (which gets this
> all wrong) to Buster (which gets it right).
> 
> This will make the docs on wlo copy-paste-able, but it won't help anyone
> who wants to build our docs on Wheezy.  I can live with that.
> 
> 
> --
> Sebastian Kuzminsky
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

Our docs build system deals with manpages written directly in groff, and 
also manpages written in asciidoc. asciidoc manpages get built into 
regular groff manpages using the asciidoc tools.


All manpages, both the native groff ones and the ones built from 
asciidoc, are converted to HTML using the HTML output mode of the groff 
tools.


There's a bit of complexity in how groff handles hyphens and minus 
signs.  The documentation and the implementation of this is evolving 
fairly actively, with non-trivial differences between groff 1.21 (in 
Wheezy) and groff 1.22.4 (in Buster, and currently the latest released 
version).


groff 1.21 in Wheezy renders '-' (ascii/utf8 0x2d, the character named 
"hyphen-minus") in the input to '-' (ascii/utf8 0x2d) in the HTML 
output, and renders '\-' in the input as '' in the HTML output. 
My web browser renders '' as '−' (u2212, named "minus"), so 
copy/paste doesn't work.


groff 1.22.4 in Buster renders both '-' (2d) and '\-' (escaped 2d) in 
the input to '-' (ascii/utf8 0x2d, which is what we want) in the HTML 
output.


The documentation for the groff 1.23 release candidate has this to say:

https://www.man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/groff_char.7.html


The hyphen-minus is a particularly unfortunate case of
overloading.  Its awkward name in ISO 8859 and later standards
reflects the many conflicting purposes to which it had already
been put in the 1980s, including a hyphen, a minus sign, and
(alone or in repetition) dashes of varying widths.  For best
results in groff, use the character in input without an escape
only to mean a hyphen, as in the phrase “long-term”.  For a minus
sign in running prose or a Unix command-line option dash, use \-
(or \[-] in groff if you find it helps the clarity of the source
document).


The groff(1) manpage for both Wheezy and Buster, themselves written in 
groff of course, use '\-' (escaped 0x2d) for the dashes that precede 
command-line arguments. I figure this gives us a pretty good idea of how 
the groff people (or at least the people who wrote the manpage) think 
about it.


And finally it's worth nothing that when asciidoc writes groff, it 
escapes the hyphen-minus character.


So based on all this I believe our groff manpages should use "-" (ascii 
0x2d, u2d, "hyphen-minus") when we want a hyphen (probably rarely) and 
"\-" (ascii/utf8 sequence 0x5c 0x2d, an escaped hyphen-minus) when we 
want the actual hyphen-minus character in the output (like for 
command-line arguments and hal pins).


We should switch our official docs build from Wheezy (which gets this 
all wrong) to Buster (which gets it right).


This will make the docs on wlo copy-paste-able, but it won't help anyone 
who wants to build our docs on Wheezy.  I can live with that.



--
Sebastian Kuzminsky


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 at 04:15, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> remembers nrof, it would not be super hard to place tags on actual code
> that needs to be on mono-space.

There are around 400 manpages. It might not be hard, but it would be tedious.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Chris Albertson]

What has to be done is place to equivalent of  tags.   Then in the
final rendering we see it using mono-space font and ASCII only.

It has been 15 or 20 years since last I looked at nrof/grof source.
Today we'd use Markdown and it would work better.   But if someone still
remembers nrof, it would not be super hard to place tags on actual code
that needs to be on mono-space.

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 2:29 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 04:19, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users
>  wrote:
> >
> > It's why one should never ever use Unicode, UTF-8 or "friendly HTML"
> codes for any character that's in the single byte Extended ASCII set.
>
> I don't think that anyone has deliberately used Unicode in the
> LinuxCNC docs when typing HAL pin names. In fact in very many cases
> they are auto-generated from the actual source-code.
> It is the tools that convert the pages into HTML and PDF that are doing
> this.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 04:19, Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users
 wrote:
>
> It's why one should never ever use Unicode, UTF-8 or "friendly HTML" codes 
> for any character that's in the single byte Extended ASCII set.

I don't think that anyone has deliberately used Unicode in the
LinuxCNC docs when typing HAL pin names. In fact in very many cases
they are auto-generated from the actual source-code.
It is the tools that convert the pages into HTML and PDF that are doing this.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users]

It's why one should never ever use Unicode, UTF-8 or "friendly HTML" codes for 
any character that's in the single byte Extended ASCII set. It wastes space and 
can foul up software that doesn't understand multi-byte character 
representations. If you need left and right single or double quotes (just for 
example) they're in extended ASCII. Every character for all the languages that 
use mainly the "english" alphabet plus additional accented or odd characters is 
in Extended ASCII, except one used in Norwegian.
 

On Friday, March 5, 2021, 10:31:08 AM MST, Mark Wendt 
 wrote:  
 
 Maybe it's in the web server then and how it outputs the html.  What shows
up in the base HTML code that creates the page?  A hyphen or a dash?

Mark

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 16:27, Mark Wendt  wrote:
>
> > What is being used to generate the HTML output?
>
> Magic, as far as I can tell.
> Original source is troff (or groff, I get them confused)
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/docs/man/man1/halui.1
> Then that is converted to asciidoc (I think) and then to HTML using a2x.
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/docs/src/Submakefile#L400
>
> But, it all works on my local machine, so doesn't seem to be inherent
> to the LinuxCNC code base.
> Hence the query, why would it appear different on www.linuxcnc.org to
> (for example) www.bodgesoc.org
>
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/sendkeys.1.html
> https://www.bodgesoc.org/sendkeys.1.html
>
> The important difference is the hyphenation, but there are also
> graphical differences.  
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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Alan Condit]

Andy,

ASCII vs extended character sets. HTML will accept and use extended
character sets. We are probably only expecting ASCII.

Alan


> From: andy pugh 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 16:00:03 +0000
> Subject: [Emc-users] HTML Help
> It has become evident that the online LinuxCNC docs in some cases (but
> not all) are displaying en-dashes in place of hyphens in HAL pin
> names.
>
> ie, what should be a 2D is an E2 88 92
>
> For example: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/halui.1.html
>
> has: halui.tool.length−offset.a float out
> But should be: halui.tool.length-offset.a float out
>
> If I (and others) generate the HTML locally we get the correct output.
>
> Has anyone any idea what might be going on? It is more than just an
> æsthetic problem, it means that copy-pasted hal snippets don't work.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912

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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[John Dammeyer]

> From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> Whoever came up with the idea that we needed different characters for 
> hyphens, dashes and minus signs anyway?  Someone needs
> kicked.
> 
> I don't remember having problems with these a few years ago.
> 
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.

My response to your question is the last line of my post but here's the 
background.

If you've ever had the experience of working on an IBM 360/370 series and 
written programs using PASCAL you'll have discovered an interesting problem.
The PASCAL statement 
if ch in ['A'..'Z'] then begin ... end; 
won't work right.
That's because the compiler generates code that does the following test 
(written now in C for example) .
  if ((ch >=0xC1) && (ch <= 0xE9)) { ... };
Needless to say the PASCAL is easier to read when you understand set notation.

Trouble is, the IBMs used EBCDIC for character representation, not ASCII.  To 
write this in PASCAL and in C is done correctly like this:
IF (ch IN ['A'..'I']) OR  (ch IN ['J'..'R']) OR (ch IN ['S'..'Z']) THEN BEGIN 
... END;

In C (or in PASCAL) to use the hex values you would write it like this:
if (((ch>=0xC1) && (ch<=0xC9)) || 
((ch>=0xD1) && (ch<=0xD9)) ||
((ch>=0xE2) && (ch<=0xE9)) ) { ... };

Yikes eh?  Notice the gaps.  If the ch had a value 0xE1 then the all inclusive 
test from 0xC1 to 0xE9 would pass even though the ch variable has an invalid 
character.

No move forward in time and Embarcadero changed the OBJECT PASCAL (Delphi) 
language in one fell swoop breaking thousands of programs and who knows how 
many man hours were required to fix it.

The type CHAR was always 7 bit ASCII and as programs became more international 
the WIDECHAR was introduced to handle 16 bit character sets and special 
characters or symbols like the German umlaut.

And then suddenly a char was 16 bits and an ANSICHAR was 8 bits.  Every program 
out there that expected CHAR to be a 7 bit ASCII character broke.  Most  of the 
time it didn't matter much because if it was a desktop screen application the 
OS took care of a lot.  If you dealt with weigh scales and serial ports or any 
other hardware device that sent 8 bit characters over a UART based serial port 
it was serious.  Or reading a text file created by a different OS.

And with the advent of 16 bit characters we can now have all sorts of values 
for what to the average eye looks like a '-'.

John Dammeyer




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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Todd Zuercher]

Whoever came up with the idea that we needed different characters for hyphens, 
dashes and minus signs anyway!  Someone needs kicked.

I don't remember having problems with these a few years ago.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street 
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh  
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2021 1:14 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 18:05, andy pugh  wrote:

> Looking at the source HTML on the server by ssh:
> sendkeys.N.currentevent
> s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown 
> markers.
>
> Looking at the delivered HTML:
> sendkeys.N.current−event
> s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown 
> markers.

And the locally-compiled version is yet a third variant:

sendkeys.N.current-event
s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown markers.

That's a plain ASCII 0x2D minus / hyphen.

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Mark Wendt]

I wonder if asciidoc or dblatex that's munging the HTML output.  Maybe some
new version that needs a new qualifier to generate the minus sign rather
than the hyphen.  Looks like there's already a conf file that doesn't allow
replacements for the arrows.  Maybe there's another qualifier that has to
be used with the possibly updated software?

Mark

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 1:09 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 17:31, Mark Wendt  wrote:
> >
> > Maybe it's in the web server then and how it outputs the html.  What
> shows
> > up in the base HTML code that creates the page?  A hyphen or a dash?
>
> Looking at the source HTML on the server by ssh:
> sendkeys.N.currentevent
> s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
> markers.
>
> Looking at the delivered HTML:
> sendkeys.N.current−event
> s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
> markers.
>
> So, the  is being delivered as a dash...
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 18:05, andy pugh  wrote:

> Looking at the source HTML on the server by ssh:
> sendkeys.N.currentevent
> s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
> markers.
>
> Looking at the delivered HTML:
> sendkeys.N.current−event
> s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
> markers.

And the locally-compiled version is yet a third variant:

sendkeys.N.current-event
s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
markers.

That's a plain ASCII 0x2D minus / hyphen.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 17:31, Mark Wendt  wrote:
>
> Maybe it's in the web server then and how it outputs the html.  What shows
> up in the base HTML code that creates the page?  A hyphen or a dash?

Looking at the source HTML on the server by ssh:
sendkeys.N.currentevent
s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
markers.

Looking at the delivered HTML:
sendkeys.N.current−event
s32 out shows the current scancode without keyup / keydown
markers.

So, the  is being delivered as a dash...

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Mark Wendt]

Maybe it's in the web server then and how it outputs the html.  What shows
up in the base HTML code that creates the page?  A hyphen or a dash?

Mark

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 12:21 PM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 16:27, Mark Wendt  wrote:
>
> > What is being used to generate the HTML output?
>
> Magic, as far as I can tell.
> Original source is troff (or groff, I get them confused)
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/docs/man/man1/halui.1
> Then that is converted to asciidoc (I think) and then to HTML using a2x.
> https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/docs/src/Submakefile#L400
>
> But, it all works on my local machine, so doesn't seem to be inherent
> to the LinuxCNC code base.
> Hence the query, why would it appear different on www.linuxcnc.org to
> (for example) www.bodgesoc.org
>
> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/sendkeys.1.html
> https://www.bodgesoc.org/sendkeys.1.html
>
> The important difference is the hyphenation, but there are also
> graphical differences.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

On Fri, 5 Mar 2021 at 16:27, Mark Wendt  wrote:

> What is being used to generate the HTML output?

Magic, as far as I can tell.
Original source is troff (or groff, I get them confused)
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/docs/man/man1/halui.1
Then that is converted to asciidoc (I think) and then to HTML using a2x.
https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/docs/src/Submakefile#L400

But, it all works on my local machine, so doesn't seem to be inherent
to the LinuxCNC code base.
Hence the query, why would it appear different on www.linuxcnc.org to
(for example) www.bodgesoc.org

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/sendkeys.1.html
https://www.bodgesoc.org/sendkeys.1.html

The important difference is the hyphenation, but there are also
graphical differences.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] HTML Help

[Mark Wendt]

What is being used to generate the HTML output?  Perhaps a character code
in the application is not set to generate the hyphen but instead generates
the dash?  Maybe someone changed the character set being used?

Mark

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 11:04 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> It has become evident that the online LinuxCNC docs in some cases (but
> not all) are displaying en-dashes in place of hyphens in HAL pin
> names.
>
> ie, what should be a 2D is an E2 88 92
>
> For example: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/halui.1.html
>
> has: halui.tool.length−offset.a float out
> But should be: halui.tool.length-offset.a float out
>
> If I (and others) generate the HTML locally we get the correct output.
>
> Has anyone any idea what might be going on? It is more than just an
> æsthetic problem, it means that copy-pasted hal snippets don't work.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
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[Emc-users] HTML Help

[andy pugh]

It has become evident that the online LinuxCNC docs in some cases (but
not all) are displaying en-dashes in place of hyphens in HAL pin
names.

ie, what should be a 2D is an E2 88 92

For example: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/halui.1.html

has: halui.tool.length−offset.a float out
But should be: halui.tool.length-offset.a float out

If I (and others) generate the HTML locally we get the correct output.

Has anyone any idea what might be going on? It is more than just an
æsthetic problem, it means that copy-pasted hal snippets don't work.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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