Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread gene heskett 

On 10/25/23 12:13, John Dammeyer wrote:

This might be a silly question but if you only want to move it one step then
does the step line stay high?  When does it go low?  After all the next step
might be in 30 minutes so should it go low in 15 minutes?  That's quite the
lookahead.
Enquiring minds wish to know.  ;-)
John

I'm going to take a SWAG john, and say that in all likelyhood, an 
incoming edge of either polarity will be a step.  It really does not 
make any sense to this electronics guy, to do otherwise.  You can 
generate them any way you want to, but given the speed limit imposed by 
the opto-isolaters used, effectively almost doubling the top speed of 
the motor. Given a high enough psu voltage of course.



-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace [mailto:p...@mesanet.com]
Sent: October 25, 2023 8:35 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:15:36 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
us...@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Peter,

Thanks, But is it even going to be worth the effort?  Since I'm sure the
regular minimum pulse length signal is still going to at least work

albeit

with some possible theoretical performance limitations.  I may not even
require step rates beyond where this is a non-issue?


Well since you can certainly get near square waves at the maximum speed
with the current setup, it doesnt seem that much is gained by always

having

square wave step signals, since the minimum timings are always met.

That said, there is an advantage of square wave outputs in simplifying
setup (since the step length and step space settings are unnecessary)



I've asked the drive manufacturer.  See if they get back to me.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:36 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
us...@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards
are always the minimum pulse length set by for example
hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is
varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
next build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty
cycle for step pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something
to do with how the drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for
maximum noise filtering and step reliability having the pulse length
be approximately equal to the step spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output
a 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?
And would doing this even be worth the effort?


Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver change to

enable the mode.




Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn


Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F



http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%4
0pgrahamdunn.com



%7Ce5da628e16d4477d2d4008dbd567e82f%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e08
06fb43



%7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
oiMC4wLjAw



MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%
7C



ta=Zwbdv69ESSXKwXR%2FvXYbyijq1wOtyar%2FYeCMJAr6fgg%3D
=0>

630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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573f47c



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3D%7C



3000%7C%7C%7C=f1ssQLGo0gn0%2B2tjHAUXLZOjfsSHNrJWTjJDkkDR
uAA%3D

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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread gene heskett 

On 10/25/23 12:00, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Gene,

The drive is a "closed loop" stepper drive from Steperonline.
Here is a link to the doc.
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/index.php?route=product/product/get_file=388/CL57T_V4.0.pdf

I've yet to actually power one of these up yet.  (Still have a lot more 
building to do before I'm ready for that.)  But I don't think I'm going to be 
asking too much of them.  At this point I'm only hoping for at least 1000rpm 
from these NEMA23 closed loop stepper motors.  (If I can get them to spin 
faster great, but I won't be upset if they can't do 2000rpm.)


I'd be looking for high friction someplace if they can't beat 3000 given 
enough voltage. They've got 72 volt supplies out now, but that, for 
under $40 a copy, should be relegated to one motor, not enough amps to 
handle 2 if they are working hard. So until psu's catch up, figure on a 
psu per motor.


Actually, I am impressed at the number of high vltage psu's the had 
crawled out of the woodwor in the last 6 months.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 11:17 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On 10/25/23 08:24, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards are always 
the minimum pulse length set by for example hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only 
the space between the pulses is varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something to do with how the 
drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for maximum noise filtering and 
step reliability having the pulse length be approximately equal to the step 
spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output a 50% 
duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?  And would 
doing this even be worth the effort?


Do yopu have a link to that doc?

In the drives I've played with using a function generator, a near 50% ratio can 
help when pushing the drive limits, but generally the speed of the 
opto-isolator is the ultimate limit, blurring the pulse into almost 
unrecognizable signals, slowed by the response times of the opto device used. 
For real dependability at 200 khz and up to the failure of the opto, usually 
around 375khz, trimming a wee bit one side or the other might get a motor with 
no load, just laying on the table some good, getting it upto 2000 revs but 
unless the motor voltage is also cranked uo, torque to do actual work at that 
speed is just a dream at 45 volts.
Some of the nextgen closed loop drivers can use 90-140 volts, overcoming the 
windings inductance much faster, That makes it possible to make usable torque 
at 3000 revs.  Those higher performance transistors do raise the price a bit. 
Particularly in the 3 phase versions. But they run like casper the ghost is 
turning the cranks, Quiet.
   > Todd Zuercher

P. Graham Dunn
Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
%7C0522ff7789484192c1e808dbd56d7fcc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43
%7C0%7C0%7C638338438551181150%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
ta=GD9S6tywNNdc0N2LZQ6I10zMC0BZScL%2FKumvnpWyoz8%3D=0>
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
   - Louis D. Brandeis



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.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Peter Wallace 

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, John Dammeyer wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 09:12:46 -0700
From: John Dammeyer 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

This might be a silly question but if you only want to move it one step then
does the step line stay high?  When does it go low?  After all the next step
might be in 30 minutes so should it go low in 15 minutes?  That's quite the
lookahead.
Enquiring minds wish to know.  ;-)
John


In square wave mode, the step pin state can be in the active
state indefinately (when stopped) How low it's actual frequency
can be depends on the hardware. On Mesa hardware and a 100 MHz base
clock the lowest settable frequency is about 1 step per 40 seconds
(100e6/2^32) but since there is high resolution position feedback
(1/65536ths of a step) LinuxCNCs control loop can dither between
stopped and the 1/40 Hz minimum at 1/servo period rate to get much
lower actual step rates (days per step)






-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace [mailto:p...@mesanet.com]
Sent: October 25, 2023 8:35 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:15:36 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
us...@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Peter,

Thanks, But is it even going to be worth the effort?  Since I'm sure the
regular minimum pulse length signal is still going to at least work

albeit

with some possible theoretical performance limitations.  I may not even
require step rates beyond where this is a non-issue?


Well since you can certainly get near square waves at the maximum speed
with the current setup, it doesnt seem that much is gained by always

having

square wave step signals, since the minimum timings are always met.

That said, there is an advantage of square wave outputs in simplifying
setup (since the step length and step space settings are unnecessary)



I've asked the drive manufacturer.  See if they get back to me.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:36 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
us...@lists.sourceforge.net>

Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
    
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards
are always the minimum pulse length set by for example
hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is
varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
next build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty
cycle for step pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something
to do with how the drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for
maximum noise filtering and step reliability having the pulse length
be approximately equal to the step spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output
a 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?
And would doing this even be worth the effort?


Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver change to

enable the mode.




Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn


Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F



http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%4
0pgrahamdunn.com



%7Ce5da628e16d4477d2d4008dbd567e82f%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e08
06fb43



%7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
oiMC4wLjAw



MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%
7C



ta=Zwbdv69ESSXKwXR%2FvXYbyijq1wOtyar%2FYeCMJAr6fgg%3D
=0>

630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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573f47c



ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CT
WFpbGZsb3d



8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%
3D%7C



3000%7C%7C%7C=f1ssQLGo0gn0%2B2tjHAUXLZOjfsSHNrJWTjJDkkDR
uAA%3D

eserved=0



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread John Dammeyer 
OK.  500kHz max step rate.
Max micro-steps/step is 16.  Standard stepper motor has 200 full steps per
rev so that's 3200 steps/rev or 156.25 revs/sec at 500kHz max step rate
which is 9375 RPM.  Yeah right a stepper motor turning that fast.
And their data sheet also states 200-51,200 micro steps in the same line as
16 micro-step resolutions.  

I'd ignore the 50% duty cycle just like I'd ignore their max step rate.  In
fact I'd ignore StepperOnline for closed loop steppers and stay with AC or
DC Servos.
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Todd Zuercher [mailto:to...@pgrahamdunn.com]
> Sent: October 25, 2023 8:59 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
> 
> Gene,
> 
> The drive is a "closed loop" stepper drive from Steperonline.
> Here is a link to the doc.
> https://www.omc-
> stepperonline.com/index.php?route=product/product/get_file=388/CL
> 57T_V4.0.pdf
> 
> I've yet to actually power one of these up yet.  (Still have a lot more
building
> to do before I'm ready for that.)  But I don't think I'm going to be
asking too
> much of them.  At this point I'm only hoping for at least 1000rpm from
these
> NEMA23 closed loop stepper motors.  (If I can get them to spin faster
great,
> but I won't be upset if they can't do 2000rpm.)
> 
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: gene heskett 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 11:17 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
> 
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> 
> On 10/25/23 08:24, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards are
> always the minimum pulse length set by for example
> hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is varied
> by the step rate, is that correct?
> >
> > I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
next
> build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for
step
> pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something to do with how the
> drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for maximum noise
filtering
> and step reliability having the pulse length be approximately equal to the
> step spacing gives the best results.
> >
> > So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output a
> 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?  And
> would doing this even be worth the effort?
> >
> Do yopu have a link to that doc?
> 
> In the drives I've played with using a function generator, a near 50%
ratio can
> help when pushing the drive limits, but generally the speed of the opto-
> isolator is the ultimate limit, blurring the pulse into almost
unrecognizable
> signals, slowed by the response times of the opto device used. For real
> dependability at 200 khz and up to the failure of the opto, usually around
> 375khz, trimming a wee bit one side or the other might get a motor with no
> load, just laying on the table some good, getting it upto 2000 revs but
unless
> the motor voltage is also cranked uo, torque to do actual work at that
speed
> is just a dream at 45 volts.
> Some of the nextgen closed loop drivers can use 90-140 volts, overcoming
> the windings inductance much faster, That makes it possible to make usable
> torque at 3000 revs.  Those higher performance transistors do raise the
price
> a bit. Particularly in the 3 phase versions. But they run like casper the
ghost is
> turning the cranks, Quiet.
>   > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn
> >
> Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> >
> http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%4
> 0pgrahamdunn.com
> >
> %7C0522ff7789484192c1e808dbd56d7fcc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806
> fb43
> >
> %7C0%7C0%7C638338438551181150%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
> oiMC4wLjAw
> >
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%
> 7C
> >
> ta=GD9S6tywNNdc0N2LZQ6I10zMC0BZScL%2FKumvnpWyoz8%3D
> =0>
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> >
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread John Dammeyer 
This might be a silly question but if you only want to move it one step then
does the step line stay high?  When does it go low?  After all the next step
might be in 30 minutes so should it go low in 15 minutes?  That's quite the
lookahead.
Enquiring minds wish to know.  ;-)
John


> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Wallace [mailto:p...@mesanet.com]
> Sent: October 25, 2023 8:35 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
> 
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:15:36 +
> > From: Todd Zuercher 
> > Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> > 
> > To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"  us...@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > Thanks, But is it even going to be worth the effort?  Since I'm sure the
> > regular minimum pulse length signal is still going to at least work
albeit
> > with some possible theoretical performance limitations.  I may not even
> > require step rates beyond where this is a non-issue?
> 
> Well since you can certainly get near square waves at the maximum speed
> with the current setup, it doesnt seem that much is gained by always
having
> square wave step signals, since the minimum timings are always met.
> 
> That said, there is an advantage of square wave outputs in simplifying
> setup (since the step length and step space settings are unnecessary)
> 
> >
> > I've asked the drive manufacturer.  See if they get back to me.
> >
> > Todd Zuercher
> > P. Graham Dunn Inc.
> > 630 Henry Street
> > Dalton, Ohio 44618
> > Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Peter Wallace 
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:36 AM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  us...@lists.sourceforge.net>
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
> >
> > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
> >> From: Todd Zuercher 
> >> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >> 
> >> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> >> 
> >> Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards
> >> are always the minimum pulse length set by for example
> >> hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is
> >> varied by the step rate, is that correct?
> >>
> >> I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
> >> next build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty
> >> cycle for step pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something
> >> to do with how the drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for
> >> maximum noise filtering and step reliability having the pulse length
> >> be approximately equal to the step spacing gives the best results.
> >>
> >> So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output
> >> a 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?
> >> And would doing this even be worth the effort?
> >
> > Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver change to
> enable the mode.
> >
> >>
> >> Todd Zuercher
> >> P. Graham Dunn
> >>
> Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> >>
> http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%4
> 0pgrahamdunn.com
> >>
> %7Ce5da628e16d4477d2d4008dbd567e82f%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e08
> 06fb43
> >>
> %7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIj
> oiMC4wLjAw
> >>
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%
> 7C
> >>
> ta=Zwbdv69ESSXKwXR%2FvXYbyijq1wOtyar%2FYeCMJAr6fgg%3D
> =0>
> >> 630 Henry Street
> >> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> >> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
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> >> https://list/
> >> s.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-
> users=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%
> >>
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> 573f47c
> >>
> ebee96c3e0806fb43%7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CT
> WFpbGZsb3d

Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Todd Zuercher 
Gene,

The drive is a "closed loop" stepper drive from Steperonline.
Here is a link to the doc.
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/index.php?route=product/product/get_file=388/CL57T_V4.0.pdf

I've yet to actually power one of these up yet.  (Still have a lot more 
building to do before I'm ready for that.)  But I don't think I'm going to be 
asking too much of them.  At this point I'm only hoping for at least 1000rpm 
from these NEMA23 closed loop stepper motors.  (If I can get them to spin 
faster great, but I won't be upset if they can't do 2000rpm.)

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 11:17 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On 10/25/23 08:24, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards are 
> always the minimum pulse length set by for example 
> hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is varied by 
> the step rate, is that correct?
>
> I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
> build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
> pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something to do with how the 
> drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for maximum noise filtering 
> and step reliability having the pulse length be approximately equal to the 
> step spacing gives the best results.
>
> So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output a 50% 
> duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?  And would 
> doing this even be worth the effort?
>
Do yopu have a link to that doc?

In the drives I've played with using a function generator, a near 50% ratio can 
help when pushing the drive limits, but generally the speed of the 
opto-isolator is the ultimate limit, blurring the pulse into almost 
unrecognizable signals, slowed by the response times of the opto device used. 
For real dependability at 200 khz and up to the failure of the opto, usually 
around 375khz, trimming a wee bit one side or the other might get a motor with 
no load, just laying on the table some good, getting it upto 2000 revs but 
unless the motor voltage is also cranked uo, torque to do actual work at that 
speed is just a dream at 45 volts.
Some of the nextgen closed loop drivers can use 90-140 volts, overcoming the 
windings inductance much faster, That makes it possible to make usable torque 
at 3000 revs.  Those higher performance transistors do raise the price a bit. 
Particularly in the 3 phase versions. But they run like casper the ghost is 
turning the cranks, Quiet.
  > Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn
> Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
> %7C0522ff7789484192c1e808dbd56d7fcc%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43
> %7C0%7C0%7C638338438551181150%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
> ta=GD9S6tywNNdc0N2LZQ6I10zMC0BZScL%2FKumvnpWyoz8%3D=0>
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
>
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
  - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Peter Wallace 

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 15:15:36 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Peter,

Thanks, But is it even going to be worth the effort?  Since I'm sure the 
regular minimum pulse length signal is still going to at least work albeit 
with some possible theoretical performance limitations.  I may not even 
require step rates beyond where this is a non-issue?


Well since you can certainly get near square waves at the maximum speed
with the current setup, it doesnt seem that much is gained by always having 
square wave step signals, since the minimum timings are always met.


That said, there is an advantage of square wave outputs in simplifying
setup (since the step length and step space settings are unnecessary)



I've asked the drive manufacturer.  See if they get back to me.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:36 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards
are always the minimum pulse length set by for example
hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is
varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
next build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty
cycle for step pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something
to do with how the drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for
maximum noise filtering and step reliability having the pulse length
be approximately equal to the step spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output
a 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?
And would doing this even be worth the effort?


Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver change to enable 
the mode.



Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn
Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
%7Ce5da628e16d4477d2d4008dbd567e82f%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43
%7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
ta=Zwbdv69ESSXKwXR%2FvXYbyijq1wOtyar%2FYeCMJAr6fgg%3D=0>
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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3000%7C%7C%7C=f1ssQLGo0gn0%2B2tjHAUXLZOjfsSHNrJWTjJDkkDRuAA%3D
eserved=0



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread gene heskett 

On 10/25/23 11:17, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Peter,

Thanks,  But is it even going to be worth the effort?  Since I'm sure the 
regular minimum pulse length signal is still going to at least work albeit with 
some possible theoretical performance limitations.  I may not even require step 
rates beyond where this is a non-issue?

I've asked the drive manufacturer.  See if they get back to me.


Please post when you do get a reply Todd.


Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:36 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards
are always the minimum pulse length set by for example
hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is
varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
next build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty
cycle for step pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something
to do with how the drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for
maximum noise filtering and step reliability having the pulse length
be approximately equal to the step spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output
a 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?
And would doing this even be worth the effort?


Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver change to enable 
the mode.



Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn
Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
%7Ce5da628e16d4477d2d4008dbd567e82f%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43
%7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
ta=Zwbdv69ESSXKwXR%2FvXYbyijq1wOtyar%2FYeCMJAr6fgg%3D=0>
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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3000%7C%7C%7C=f1ssQLGo0gn0%2B2tjHAUXLZOjfsSHNrJWTjJDkkDRuAA%3D
eserved=0



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread gene heskett 

On 10/25/23 10:41, andy pugh wrote:

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 14:59, Todd Zuercher  wrote:


Unfortunately no, it only has step/dir or CW/CCW as input options.


Quadrature might still work, but probably isn't to be preferred to step/dir.

Quadrature signals set up as A step and B dir will have B low on
rising edges of A in ne direction and high in the other. So it's
_like_ step-dir


Quadrature drive and a closed loop driver would a a killer application.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread gene heskett 

On 10/25/23 08:24, Todd Zuercher wrote:

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards are always 
the minimum pulse length set by for example hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only 
the space between the pulses is varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something to do with how the 
drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for maximum noise filtering and 
step reliability having the pulse length be approximately equal to the step 
spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output a 50% 
duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?  And would 
doing this even be worth the effort?


Do yopu have a link to that doc?

In the drives I've played with using a function generator, a near 50% 
ratio can help when pushing the drive limits, but generally the speed of 
the opto-isolator is the ultimate limit, blurring the pulse into almost 
unrecognizable signals, slowed by the response times of the opto device 
used. For real dependability at 200 khz and up to the failure of the 
opto, usually around 375khz, trimming a wee bit one side or the other 
might get a motor with no load, just laying on the table some good, 
getting it upto 2000 revs but unless the motor voltage is also cranked 
uo, torque to do actual work at that speed is just a dream at 45 volts. 
Some of the nextgen closed loop drivers can use 90-140 volts, overcoming 
the windings inductance much faster, That makes it possible to make 
usable torque at 3000 revs.  Those higher performance transistors do 
raise the price a bit. Particularly in the 3 phase versions. But they 
run like casper the ghost is turning the cranks, Quiet.

 > Todd Zuercher

P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis



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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Todd Zuercher 
Peter,

Thanks,  But is it even going to be worth the effort?  Since I'm sure the 
regular minimum pulse length signal is still going to at least work albeit with 
some possible theoretical performance limitations.  I may not even require step 
rates beyond where this is a non-issue?

I've asked the drive manufacturer.  See if they get back to me.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: Peter Wallace 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:36 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:

> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
> From: Todd Zuercher 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?
>
> Hello,
>
> It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards
> are always the minimum pulse length set by for example
> hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is
> varied by the step rate, is that correct?
>
> I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my
> next build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty
> cycle for step pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something
> to do with how the drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for
> maximum noise filtering and step reliability having the pulse length
> be approximately equal to the step spacing gives the best results.
>
> So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output
> a 50% duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?
> And would doing this even be worth the effort?

Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver change to enable 
the mode.

>
> Todd Zuercher
> P. Graham Dunn
> Inc.<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F
> http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/%2Findex.php=05%7C01%7Ctoddz%40pgrahamdunn.com
> %7Ce5da628e16d4477d2d4008dbd567e82f%7C5758544c573f47cebee96c3e0806fb43
> %7C0%7C0%7C638338414483169698%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
> ta=Zwbdv69ESSXKwXR%2FvXYbyijq1wOtyar%2FYeCMJAr6fgg%3D=0>
> 630 Henry Street
> Dalton, Ohio 44618
> Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031
>
>
> ___
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> 3000%7C%7C%7C=f1ssQLGo0gn0%2B2tjHAUXLZOjfsSHNrJWTjJDkkDRuAA%3D
> eserved=0
>

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread andy pugh 
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 14:59, Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> Unfortunately no, it only has step/dir or CW/CCW as input options.

Quadrature might still work, but probably isn't to be preferred to step/dir.

Quadrature signals set up as A step and B dir will have B low on
rising edges of A in ne direction and high in the other. So it's
_like_ step-dir

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Peter Wallace 

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023, Todd Zuercher wrote:


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 12:22:40 +
From: Todd Zuercher 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Subject: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards are 
always the minimum pulse length set by for example 
hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only the space between the pulses is varied 
by the step rate, is that correct?


I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something to do with how the 
drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for maximum noise filtering 
and step reliability having the pulse length be approximately equal to the 
step spacing gives the best results.


So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output a 50% 
duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?  And would 
doing this even be worth the effort?


Its possible with a minor firmware change and LinuxCNC driver
change to enable the mode.



Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.<http://www.pgrahamdunn.com/index.php>
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Todd Zuercher 
Unfortunately no, it only has step/dir or CW/CCW as input options.

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031

-Original Message-
From: andy pugh 
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2023 8:35 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] Be sure links are safe.

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 13:27, Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
> build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
> pulse inputs.

Does the drive have an option to use quadrature signals? The Mesa stephen can 
output 50% duty cycle in quadrature mode.


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for 
the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics."
- George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread andy pugh 
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 13:27, Todd Zuercher  wrote:

> I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
> build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
> pulse inputs.

Does the drive have an option to use quadrature signals? The Mesa
stephen can output 50% duty cycle in quadrature mode.


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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[Emc-users] Mesa Step Pulses?

2023-10-25 Thread Todd Zuercher 
Hello,

It is my understanding that the step pulses generated by Mesa cards are always 
the minimum pulse length set by for example hm2_5i25.0.stepgen.00.steplen, only 
the space between the pulses is varied by the step rate, is that correct?

I was reading the manual for the new drive I was planning to use in my next 
build and see that the drive calls a preference of a 50% duty cycle for step 
pulse inputs.  I am guessing that it may have something to do with how the 
drive's pulse filtering system works, such that for maximum noise filtering and 
step reliability having the pulse length be approximately equal to the step 
spacing gives the best results.

So my questions are;  Would it be possible to make a Mesa card output a 50% 
duty cycle step pattern instead of the current default pattern?  And would 
doing this even be worth the effort?

Todd Zuercher
P. Graham Dunn Inc.
630 Henry Street
Dalton, Ohio 44618
Phone:  (330)828-2105ext. 2031


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