Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[fxkl47BF via Emc-users]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, July 12th, 2021 at 11:23 AM, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:

> Sorry I sent the message too soon.   Getting max power out of an engine means 
> running it at a pathological where the load is exactly matched of just one 
> RPM.    But youengine is over powered as it should be so you only need to run 
> a wide open throttle at any RPM where thecurve is able 3.5 (or whatever) HP.
> You are still going to need two automatic control systems or a full-time 
> skilled human operator.
> 1) the first control system measures battery voltage over time and 
> computesthe rate of charge and uses a MOSFET switch to limit rate of change.  
> All current battery charges today use a microcontroller and software to do 
> this.    Again a skilled human operator could watch a meter and maybe move 
> switches if it had charge rate chart as reference.   This is best left to 
> automation.
> 2) You are going to need an RPM sensor on the motor and an actuator on the 
> throttle so that RPM stays constant ouder different loads.  Or maybe smarter  
> use an algorithm that runs the engine at the minimum RPM needed to produce 
> the power required.  Again a microcontroller and software is needed.  Or a 
> skilled full time human operator.
> One other thing.  The battery charge controller will produce a varying load.  
> At first, it will "bulk charge" and then taper off the power delivered to the 
> battery.   I'd thing it a good idea if the battery charger software could 
> communicate to the engine controller software.  But this is a "version 2.0 
> step.
> You likely also want a display so you can monitor what's happening inside.  
> Certainly during development you need to watch it closely while you do things 
> like tweak PID constants and the like.   If the control computer where 
> something like a Raspburry Pi it could put all the data on a web page.  Then 
> you can remotely monitor the charger over WiFi on your phone or desktop 
> computer.
> In the old days they used mechanical governors with pushrods to the 
> carburetor for RPM control but today you put a rotation sensor on the output 
> shaft that does a pulse each revolution and send that to the engine controller
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 9:02 AM Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> > The 6.5 rating on that engine is at "wide open throttle" at the RPM tha 
> > produces peak power.  
> >
> > I don't know the power curve of that engine but its peak power speed is 
> > likely faster than you want to listen to, 6,000 RPM maybe.    Your first 
> > step is to use the correct pulley ratio to let the engine run at its peak 
> > powerpoint.   The next step is to implement some kind of automatic throttle 
> > unless you want to manually operate it.
> > On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 4:44 AM fxkl47BF via Emc-users 
> >  wrote:
> > > i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a very 
> > > diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a list that 
> > > would be more appropriate please let me know.
> > > i've had a desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery 
> > > charger. i've seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my 
> > > first thought was to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. 
> > > but since i already had a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an 
> > > alternator like this 
> > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROLET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
> > >  i also added an ammeter like this 
> > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4fVTEuR6.
> > > i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out of my 
> > > tractor, connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt load. i 
> > > cranked the engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter showed about 
> > > a 7 amp load. i switched on the inverter and it went to about 9 amps. i 
> > > switched on the load and it went to about 75 amps. the engine was 
> > > straining. i disconnected the the alternator from the battery so the load 
> > > could draw down the battery. after about one minute i reconnected the 
> > > alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110 amps and it promptly stalled 
> > > the engine. i tried several times with the same results.
> > > all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline 
> > > engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either 
> > > my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way 
> > > off.
> > > thanks for any feedback.


what you describe would be very cool. i wanted a charger that can start a 
machine with a low battery or get a low battery "mostly" charged quickly. i 
always planned for it to be a hands on manual process not a set it and forget 
it.


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[Chris Albertson]

Sorry I sent the message too soon.   Getting max power out of an engine
means running it at a pathological where the load is exactly matched of
just one RPM.But youengine is over powered as it should be so you only
need to run a wide open throttle at any RPM where thecurve is able 3.5 (or
whatever) HP.

You are still going to need two automatic control systems or a full-time
skilled human operator.
1) the first control system measures battery voltage over time and
computesthe rate of charge and uses a MOSFET switch to limit rate of
change.  All current battery charges today use a microcontroller and
software to do this.Again a skilled human operator could watch a meter
and maybe move switches if it had charge rate chart as reference.   This is
best left to automation.
2) You are going to need an RPM sensor on the motor and an actuator on the
throttle so that RPM stays constant ouder different loads.  Or maybe
smarter  use an algorithm that runs the engine at the minimum RPM needed to
produce the power required.  Again a microcontroller and software is
needed.  Or a skilled full time human operator.

One other thing.  The battery charge controller will produce a varying
load.  At first, it will "bulk charge" and then taper off the power
delivered to the battery.   I'd thing it a good idea if the battery charger
software could communicate to the engine controller software.  But this is
a "version 2.0 step.

You likely also want a display so you can monitor what's happening inside.
Certainly during development you need to watch it closely while you do
things like tweak PID constants and the like.   If the control computer
where something like a Raspburry Pi it could put all the data on a web
page.  Then you can remotely monitor the charger over WiFi on your phone or
desktop computer.

In the old days they used mechanical governors with pushrods to the
carburetor for RPM control but today you put a rotation sensor on the
output shaft that does a pulse each revolution and send that to the engine
controller

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 9:02 AM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> The 6.5 rating on that engine is at "wide open throttle" at the RPM tha
> produces peak power.
>
> I don't know the power curve of that engine but its peak power speed is
> likely faster than you want to listen to, 6,000 RPM maybe.Your first
> step is to use the correct pulley ratio to let the engine run at its peak
> powerpoint.   The next step is to implement some kind of automatic throttle
> unless you want to manually operate it.
>
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 4:44 AM fxkl47BF via Emc-users <
> emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>> i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a very
>> diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a list that
>> would be more appropriate please let me know.
>> i've had a desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery
>> charger. i've seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first
>> thought was to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but
>> since i already had a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an
>> alternator like this
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROLET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
>> i also added an ammeter like this
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4fVTEuR6
>> .
>> i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out of my
>> tractor, connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt load. i
>> cranked the engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter showed about a
>> 7 amp load. i switched on the inverter and it went to about 9 amps. i
>> switched on the load and it went to about 75 amps. the engine was
>> straining. i disconnected the the alternator from the battery so the load
>> could draw down the battery. after about one minute i reconnected the
>> alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110 amps and it promptly stalled
>> the engine. i tried several times with the same results.
>> all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline
>> engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either
>> my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way
>> off.
>> thanks for any feedback.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[Chris Albertson]

The 6.5 rating on that engine is at "wide open throttle" at the RPM tha
produces peak power.

I don't know the power curve of that engine but its peak power speed is
likely faster than you want to listen to, 6,000 RPM maybe.Your first
step is to use the correct pulley ratio to let the engine run at its peak
powerpoint.   The next step is to implement some kind of automatic throttle
unless you want to manually operate it.

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 4:44 AM fxkl47BF via Emc-users <
emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a very
> diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a list that
> would be more appropriate please let me know.
> i've had a desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery
> charger. i've seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first
> thought was to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but
> since i already had a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an
> alternator like this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROLET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
> i also added an ammeter like this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4fVTEuR6
> .
> i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out of my
> tractor, connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt load. i
> cranked the engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter showed about a
> 7 amp load. i switched on the inverter and it went to about 9 amps. i
> switched on the load and it went to about 75 amps. the engine was
> straining. i disconnected the the alternator from the battery so the load
> could draw down the battery. after about one minute i reconnected the
> alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110 amps and it promptly stalled
> the engine. i tried several times with the same results.
> all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline
> engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either
> my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way
> off.
> thanks for any feedback.
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[dave engvall]

Hi,
Alternators like to be spun fast. Max rpm 10K but 6Krpm is a good place 
to operate. It is easy to damage pb-acid batteries while charging.
See 
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Iota-charging-deep-cycle-batteries.pdf


There are better guides on the web but this is the first one that came up.
In summary bulk charge to about 25% of total capacity. Absorbtion charge 
up to the recommended voltage then float charge.
One can fast charge a battery but the chances of damage increase. I 
think the 10 A rate of most 12 chargers is reasonable.
A serious web search should give better figures. To charge at high rates 
is going to take a very large battery. ;-)
I suspect that charging batteries in series will help level out the 
charge when charging multiple batteries. Of course that takes a different

alternator. ;-(  As always YMMV
Good luck.

Dave


On 7/9/21 9:46 AM, fxkl47BF via Emc-users wrote:

On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 6:41 AM, fxkl47BF  wrote:


i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a very 
diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a list that would 
be more appropriate please let me know.
i've had a desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery charger. 
i've seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first thought was 
to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but since i already had 
a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an alternator like this 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROLET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
 i also added an ammeter like this 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4fVTEuR6.
i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out of my tractor, 
connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt load. i cranked the 
engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter showed about a 7 amp load. i 
switched on the inverter and it went to about 9 amps. i switched on the load 
and it went to about 75 amps. the engine was straining. i disconnected the the 
alternator from the battery so the load could draw down the battery. after 
about one minute i reconnected the alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110 
amps and it promptly stalled the engine. i tried several times with the same 
results.
all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline engine 
was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either my 6.5 hp 
engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way off.
thanks for any feedback.

i've been do'n a little piddle'n on this when life didn't get in the way.
i took all of the feedback from y'all and it sounded like less would be better 
so where my sheaves were originally a 2:1 increase now i have a 1:1. i tried 
slower, .7:1 decrease but it was too slow. the alternator would barely make 13 
volts. to get a little more info i bought one of those point and shoot 
tachometers. it says this engine runs at 3200 rpm with no load. with a 1:1 
ratio i drained down my battery and with a 800 watt load the alternator made 
120 amps at 14.3 volts for 20 to 30 seconds before the amps dropped. the tach 
showed it turning at 3100 rpm. i think to get 220 amps i would need a 10 or 12 
hp engine and turn this thing at 1 rpm. of course it would melt down after 
about 1 minute.
i appreciate all the feedback.


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[fxkl47BF via Emc-users]

On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 6:41 AM, fxkl47BF  wrote:

> i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a very 
> diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a list that 
> would be more appropriate please let me know.
> i've had a desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery charger. 
> i've seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first thought was 
> to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but since i already 
> had a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an alternator like this 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROLET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
>  i also added an ammeter like this 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4fVTEuR6.
> i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out of my 
> tractor, connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt load. i 
> cranked the engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter showed about a 7 
> amp load. i switched on the inverter and it went to about 9 amps. i switched 
> on the load and it went to about 75 amps. the engine was straining. i 
> disconnected the the alternator from the battery so the load could draw down 
> the battery. after about one minute i reconnected the alternator. the ammeter 
> jumped to about 110 amps and it promptly stalled the engine. i tried several 
> times with the same results.
> all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline engine 
> was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either my 6.5 hp 
> engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way off.
> thanks for any feedback.

i've been do'n a little piddle'n on this when life didn't get in the way.
i took all of the feedback from y'all and it sounded like less would be better 
so where my sheaves were originally a 2:1 increase now i have a 1:1. i tried 
slower, .7:1 decrease but it was too slow. the alternator would barely make 13 
volts. to get a little more info i bought one of those point and shoot 
tachometers. it says this engine runs at 3200 rpm with no load. with a 1:1 
ratio i drained down my battery and with a 800 watt load the alternator made 
120 amps at 14.3 volts for 20 to 30 seconds before the amps dropped. the tach 
showed it turning at 3100 rpm. i think to get 220 amps i would need a 10 or 12 
hp engine and turn this thing at 1 rpm. of course it would melt down after 
about 1 minute.
i appreciate all the feedback.


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[fxkl47BF via Emc-users]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 3:05 PM, Thaddeus Waldner  
wrote:

> I second the suggestion to change your pulleys to slow down the alternator. 
> Maybe try to find the rpm/amperage chart for your specific alternator AND the 
> rpm/power chart for you engine. Then configure the pulleys so that the power 
> output never exceeds the available power at any rpm.

tomorrow i'm gonna see what size pulleys i can find locally
i'm gonna shoot for a 1:1 ratio and see what happens


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[Thaddeus Waldner]

I second the suggestion to change your pulleys to slow down the alternator. 
Maybe try to find the rpm/amperage chart for your specific alternator AND the 
rpm/power chart for you engine. Then configure the pulleys so that the power 
output never exceeds the available power at any rpm.

Thaddeus Waldner
Newdale School
Elkton, SD 57026

From: ken.stra...@gmail.com 
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 1:06:01 PM
To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

With the demise of Sears, the new term is "Chinese horsepower". They have
smaller horses...

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer 
Sent: June 27, 2021 1:54 PM
To: 'fxkl47BF' ; 'Enhanced Machine Controller
(EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

Your engine might be rated at what we used to call 'Sears Horsepower' where
their compressors had 4HP rated motors for 115VAC 15A circuit which isn't
possible of course.  They'd rate the max surge current for a few
milliseconds I think.

Anyway, your alternator is rated at 2200 RPM for max current.  Without
knowing your engine RPM it's hard to compare but 1:2 is likely too high for
this alternator.  And if you slow down the engine to 1100 RPM to create 2200
RPM you won't get the rated power.   I'd go the other direction with 2:1 or
even 3:1 depending on what max engine RPM is.

The systems I've designed that used a 10KW ONAN genset created 110VAC into
an 80A charger.  And even then I could control the charger to limit charge
current which in turn limited load on the generator.

You will find even with sealed lead acid batteries that the max current will
only be there for a very short time so trying to achieve that level of power
output for charging is likely not needed.  Lithiums are a different story.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: fxkl47BF via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: June-27-21 7:21 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)
> Cc: fxkl47BF
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
> On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 8:07 AM, fxkl47BF 
wrote:
>
> > --- Original Message ---
> >
> > On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 7:19 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com
wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 12:44, fxkl47BF via Emc-users
> > >
> > > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp
> > > > gasoline engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt
> alternator. either my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my
calculations are way off.
> > > >
> > > > 220A x 12V = 2.640kW = 3.5hp. So it should be able to manage it.
> > > >
> > > > You might need to look at the pulley ratios. Do you have a
> > > > performance
> > > >
> > > > curve for the engine and the alternator? You need to consider
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > relative torques for your chosen speed.
>
> i have about a 2:1 increase belt drive i was running the engine at
> full speed
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[ken.strauss]

With the demise of Sears, the new term is "Chinese horsepower". They have
smaller horses...

-Original Message-
From: John Dammeyer  
Sent: June 27, 2021 1:54 PM
To: 'fxkl47BF' ; 'Enhanced Machine Controller
(EMC)' 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

Your engine might be rated at what we used to call 'Sears Horsepower' where
their compressors had 4HP rated motors for 115VAC 15A circuit which isn't
possible of course.  They'd rate the max surge current for a few
milliseconds I think.

Anyway, your alternator is rated at 2200 RPM for max current.  Without
knowing your engine RPM it's hard to compare but 1:2 is likely too high for
this alternator.  And if you slow down the engine to 1100 RPM to create 2200
RPM you won't get the rated power.   I'd go the other direction with 2:1 or
even 3:1 depending on what max engine RPM is.  

The systems I've designed that used a 10KW ONAN genset created 110VAC into
an 80A charger.  And even then I could control the charger to limit charge
current which in turn limited load on the generator.

You will find even with sealed lead acid batteries that the max current will
only be there for a very short time so trying to achieve that level of power
output for charging is likely not needed.  Lithiums are a different story.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: fxkl47BF via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: June-27-21 7:21 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)
> Cc: fxkl47BF
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> 
> On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 8:07 AM, fxkl47BF 
wrote:
> 
> > --- Original Message ---
> >
> > On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 7:19 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com
wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 12:44, fxkl47BF via Emc-users
> > >
> > > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp 
> > > > gasoline engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt
> alternator. either my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my
calculations are way off.
> > > >
> > > > 220A x 12V = 2.640kW = 3.5hp. So it should be able to manage it.
> > > >
> > > > You might need to look at the pulley ratios. Do you have a 
> > > > performance
> > > >
> > > > curve for the engine and the alternator? You need to consider 
> > > > the
> > > >
> > > > relative torques for your chosen speed.
> 
> i have about a 2:1 increase belt drive i was running the engine at 
> full speed
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[John Dammeyer]

Your engine might be rated at what we used to call 'Sears Horsepower' where 
their compressors had 4HP rated motors for 115VAC 15A circuit which isn't 
possible of course.  They'd rate the max surge current for a few milliseconds I 
think.

Anyway, your alternator is rated at 2200 RPM for max current.  Without knowing 
your engine RPM it's hard to compare but 1:2 is likely too high for this 
alternator.  And if you slow down the engine to 1100 RPM to create 2200 RPM you 
won't get the rated power.   I'd go the other direction with 2:1 or even 3:1 
depending on what max engine RPM is.  

The systems I've designed that used a 10KW ONAN genset created 110VAC into an 
80A charger.  And even then I could control the charger to limit charge current 
which in turn limited load on the generator.

You will find even with sealed lead acid batteries that the max current will 
only be there for a very short time so trying to achieve that level of power 
output for charging is likely not needed.  Lithiums are a different story.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: fxkl47BF via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: June-27-21 7:21 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller \(EMC\)
> Cc: fxkl47BF
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> 
> On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 8:07 AM, fxkl47BF  
> wrote:
> 
> > --- Original Message ---
> >
> > On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 7:19 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 12:44, fxkl47BF via Emc-users
> > >
> > > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> > >
> > > > all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline 
> > > > engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt
> alternator. either my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my 
> calculations are way off.
> > > >
> > > > 220A x 12V = 2.640kW = 3.5hp. So it should be able to manage it.
> > > >
> > > > You might need to look at the pulley ratios. Do you have a performance
> > > >
> > > > curve for the engine and the alternator? You need to consider the
> > > >
> > > > relative torques for your chosen speed.
> 
> i have about a 2:1 increase belt drive
> i was running the engine at full speed
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 27 June 2021 08:19:42 andy pugh wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 12:44, fxkl47BF via Emc-users
>
>  wrote:
> > all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp
> > gasoline engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt
> > alternator. either my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or
> > my calculations are way off.
>
> 220A x 12V = 2.640kW = 3.5hp. So it should be able to manage it.

True Andy, but thats a pb battery and will need at least 14 volts for a 
decent charge level given the average bean counter at guvmnt motors 
reticence to allow a 4 gauge cable so the alternator is well connected. 
Ground ohmage thru mounting brackets etc also has to be totalled into 
that resistance at 220 amps. His one wire spec can be a huge problem. 
BTDT back in the '70's living in Nebraska, but made my own switching 
mode voltage regulator which removes that "minor" resistance by watching 
battery voltage via a direct connection to the battery. Incorporating 
lots a si diodes in series with a 4.7 volt zener, then scaled to adjust 
it, I moved that alternator and regulator and 2 batteries to the next 4 
vehicles I wore out. The regulator tempcomp was from its position on the 
firewall, senseing battery temp from engine temp only quicker. At -25F 
it hit the battery with over 17 volts and 80 amps for about a minute 
after a cold start. But at 100F out, it was down to just over 13.3 
volts, and I never in about 12 years, had to add water to either battery 
because it was being overcharged.

Each battery has its own personality, and I could adjust the regulator to 
match things well within a month or or less of switching a battery with 
a shorted cell for a new one.

> You might need to look at the pulley ratios. Do you have a performance
> curve for the engine and the alternator? You need to consider the
> relative torques for your chosen speed.

A "salisbury" drive and clutch on the motor can scale that automatically.

I had an original "Tote Goat" when I lived in the black hills near Raoid 
City, SD, in the 1960's. Several engines used up, generally speaking 10 
mph on flat ground, 3 or 4 mph "up a pine tree", with any engine I could 
bolt in. I drug quite a few deer back to the truck with it over that 
decade. Handy as could be in rough terrain. I raised my then 3 kids on 
hamberger made from venison.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[fxkl47BF via Emc-users]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 8:07 AM, fxkl47BF  wrote:

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>
> On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 7:19 AM, andy pugh bodge...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 12:44, fxkl47BF via Emc-users
> >
> > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net wrote:
> >
> > > all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline 
> > > engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either 
> > > my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way 
> > > off.
> > >
> > > 220A x 12V = 2.640kW = 3.5hp. So it should be able to manage it.
> > >
> > > You might need to look at the pulley ratios. Do you have a performance
> > >
> > > curve for the engine and the alternator? You need to consider the
> > >
> > > relative torques for your chosen speed.

i have about a 2:1 increase belt drive
i was running the engine at full speed


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[fxkl47BF via Emc-users]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, June 27th, 2021 at 7:41 AM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:

> On Sunday 27 June 2021 07:41:35 fxkl47BF via Emc-users wrote:
> > i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a
> > very diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a
> > list that would be more appropriate please let me know. i've had a
> > desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery charger. i've
> > seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first thought
> > was to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but since
> > i already had a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an
> > alternator like this
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROL
> > ET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
> > i also added an ammeter like this
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4f
> > VTEuR6. i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out
> > of my tractor, connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt
> > load. i cranked the engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter
> > showed about a 7 amp load. i switched on the inverter and it went to
> > about 9 amps. i switched on the load and it went to about 75 amps. the
> > engine was straining. i disconnected the the alternator from the
> > battery so the load could draw down the battery. after about one
> > minute i reconnected the alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110
> > amps and it promptly stalled the engine. i tried several times with
> > the same results. all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that
> > a 6.5 hp gasoline engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12
> > volt alternator. either my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain
> > or my calculations are way off. thanks for any feedback.
>
> I think that formula might be in the Machinists Handbook but mine isn't
> handy. In any event that 6.5 hp engine is too puny to pull that 220 amp
> alternator at full output as thats 3.19 kilowatts at around 14.5 volts
> to the battery. And thats w/o any wiring losses.

i always used a rule of thumb 2 gasoline hp per 1000 watts
and 746 watts = 1 hp
i was very liberal with my calculations
15 volts * 220 amps = 3300 watts
3300 / 746 = 4.423
(3300 / 1000) * 2 = 6.6
either way i figured i had enough


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 27 June 2021 07:41:35 fxkl47BF via Emc-users wrote:

> i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a
> very diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a
> list that would be more appropriate please let me know. i've had a
> desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery charger. i've
> seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first thought
> was to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but since
> i already had a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an
> alternator like this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROL
>ET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
> i also added an ammeter like this
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4f
>VTEuR6. i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out
> of my tractor, connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt
> load. i cranked the engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter
> showed about a 7 amp load. i switched on the inverter and it went to
> about 9 amps. i switched on the load and it went to about 75 amps. the
> engine was straining. i disconnected the the alternator from the
> battery so the load could draw down the battery. after about one
> minute i reconnected the alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110
> amps and it promptly stalled the engine. i tried several times with
> the same results. all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that
> a 6.5 hp gasoline engine was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12
> volt alternator. either my 6.5 hp engine is more feeble than my brain
> or my calculations are way off. thanks for any feedback.
>
I think that formula might be in the Machinists Handbook but mine isn't 
handy. In any event that 6.5 hp engine is too puny to pull that 220 amp 
alternator at full output as thats 3.19 kilowatts at around 14.5 volts 
to the battery. And thats w/o any wiring losses.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[andy pugh]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 at 12:44, fxkl47BF via Emc-users
 wrote:

> all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline engine 
> was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either my 6.5 hp 
> engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way off.

220A x 12V = 2.640kW = 3.5hp. So it should be able to manage it.

You might need to look at the pulley ratios. Do you have a performance
curve for the engine and the alternator? You need to consider the
relative torques for your chosen speed.


--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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[Emc-users] OT: power, horsepower, and a bad brain

[fxkl47BF via Emc-users]

i'm gonna explain my screwup here because this group of folks has a very 
diverse range of expertise. enough kiss'n up. if you know of a list that would 
be more appropriate please let me know.
i've had a desire for some time to build a gasoline powered battery charger. 
i've seen it done several times and thought no big deal. my first thought was 
to use a 3 hp engine and a 100 amp one wire alternator. but since i already had 
a 6.5 hp engine i decided to go with that and an alternator like this 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CS130-ONE-WIRE-RED-ALTERNATOR-FOR-CHEVROLET-GMC-CHEVY-220-AMP-1-WIRE-1100665-/283190864732?hash=item41ef7dab5c.
 i also added an ammeter like this 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/30474999?hash=item461ba47b37:g:hYUAAOxy4fVTEuR6.
i finished it and was ready to test. i pulled a big battery out of my tractor, 
connected a 1000 watt inverter, and about an 800 watt load. i cranked the 
engine and connected it to the battery. ammeter showed about a 7 amp load. i 
switched on the inverter and it went to about 9 amps. i switched on the load 
and it went to about 75 amps. the engine was straining. i disconnected the the 
alternator from the battery so the load could draw down the battery. after 
about one minute i reconnected the alternator. the ammeter jumped to about 110 
amps and it promptly stalled the engine. i tried several times with the same 
results.
all of my feeble calculations led me to believe that a 6.5 hp gasoline engine 
was more than enough to power a 220 amp 12 volt alternator. either my 6.5 hp 
engine is more feeble than my brain or my calculations are way off.
thanks for any feedback.


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