Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-16 Thread Dale Grover
Thanks!

--Dale


At 9:10 AM +0300 8/16/09, Anders Wallin wrote:
>On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Dale Grover wrote:
>>  I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a
>>  graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a
>>  plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?
>
>I have some images on my website:
>http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/04/pid-tunig/
>http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/04/x-axis-test/
>
>This is not a step response (where you demand infinite acc and vel
>from the system!) but a response to a G0 move.
>
>Anders
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-15 Thread Anders Wallin
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Dale Grover wrote:
> I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a
> graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a
> plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?

I have some images on my website:
http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/04/pid-tunig/
http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/04/x-axis-test/

This is not a step response (where you demand infinite acc and vel
from the system!) but a response to a G0 move.

Anders

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-10 Thread Chris Morley



> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:21:03 +0100
> From: rob...@innovative-rc.com
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request
> 
> HI dale
> 
> thanks for sending over the PDF iv given it a read over, nice work so 
> fare. where is this article going? in a mag or the likes? just 
> interested realy
> 
> o, on the image to Gcode, the word your looking for is gray scale in 
> black white image for depth perception i believe.
> 
> Did you think about abit to mention about EMCs G64 & G61 path modes when 
> you talk about Gcode area etc.
> 
> i think you have got most of the bases covered in your article with out 
> going into grate detail and confusing the end reader.
> 
> keep up good work
> 
> rob
> 

I would mention more about EMC's ability to do closed loop and why 
that is significant.
I think it is a good start for an introduction to EMC.
I have been looking to see if any articles show up in the hobby mags 
that included EMC or were about it.

I recently found one in a electronics mag about using EMC to
make pc boards on a router. Unfortunately it hardly mentioned 
EMC but there was a screen shot of AXIS.

I'm happy to hear someone is writing one!


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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-10 Thread robert
HI dale

thanks for sending over the PDF iv given it a read over, nice work so 
fare. where is this article going? in a mag or the likes? just 
interested realy

o, on the image to Gcode, the word your looking for is gray scale in 
black white image for depth perception i believe.

Did you think about abit to mention about EMCs G64 & G61 path modes when 
you talk about Gcode area etc.

i think you have got most of the bases covered in your article with out 
going into grate detail and confusing the end reader.

keep up good work

rob



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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-09 Thread BRIAN GLACKIN
Just an observers note - The original question was a request for servo
tuning info for an article.  Looks like there are two sub threads here - Jim
Fleig did the right this and spawned a new thread..

$0.02 + $4 gets you a latte
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-09 Thread Steve Blackmore
On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:00:18 +0100, you wrote:

>> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
>> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
>> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
>> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
>> would not consider a control system without this.
>>   
>EMC can do all this, u just need to know how to operate the control. if 
>you can do this on a fanuc 6/10M or newer you can do it on EMC.
>just pause program. job away to where ever. stop spindle
>do what ever
>restart spindle in MDI just like u would have to on fanuc. reload H 
>offset if needed
>then switch back to program pick run from line when in place away you go.
>
>its how we have to do it on our fanuc 10 so its no show stoper for us.

Fanuc 6 or10  Ancient 80's technology and absolutely nothing to
aspire to. 

Most of my contacts run 16/18/21 which are streets ahead of that
obsolete stuff. I believe they are up to 31 or so at the moment ;)

Please tell me how you feed hold mid program, stop spindle, jog away
from the work, do whatever you need to, then press cycle start and
continue in EMC without doing a "Stop, note the line number then run
from current line"?

I've asked before and I've been told it's impossible because of the
interpreter, and it would need a major rewrite? Quote

"The feedhold HAL input merely causes the motion controller to stop the 
motors in a controlled way, it doesn't change modes to allow manual/MDI 
movement."

If you have a work around I'd be very pleased to hear about it.

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-09 Thread Frank Tkalcevic
That wasn't the problem.  When I was tuning my servos they were pretty stiff
and responsive, but still making a lot of noise.  I tried to tweak the PID
parameters, but every now and then I would change something that caused the
servos to oscillate wildly out of control.  When this happened, rather than
using the MDI to generate a signal, enabling / disabling the machine is all
I could do. 

I think I was assuming that getting the servo into a stage of poor PID
tuning was normal.


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] 
> Sent: Monday, 10 August 2009 4:39 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request
> 
> 
> > Frank Tkalcevic wrote:
> >   
> >> How do you generate your step pulses?  When I was tunning, I would 
> >> keep the machine on and do an MDI move.  This doesn't work 
> too well 
> >> when the tuning is so bad it faults when you enable the machine.
> >>   
> >> 
> Hmm, looks like I missed part of your question.  If it is 
> faulting immediately, there may be a reversal of the motor 
> wires, or some other reason the servo diverges, when it is 
> supposed to converge.  I show that sort of response in one of 
> the pictures on my tutorial.  If you turn the gain down, then 
> you may be able to keep it from going wild immediately.
> I have software-controlled following error in EMC, not in the 
> drive, so I can set it quite wide when starting out.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-09 Thread robert

> Hi Rob, the only selling point you have is cost if it's in a commercial
> environment. 
>   
not so true in all respect, you have alot of control if you know the in 
and outs of EMC.
EMC u can customize up using HAL to pretty much any setup you care for. 
if thats enough you can wire your own modules to go into hal to do near 
anything.
you can sync two axis/spindles or more while doing a spindle sync move. 
the list is huge in setups and customizing.
EMC is doing things the new fanuc controls and likes are only just 
getting to grips with if something comes up you wish to do it can always 
be added its no longer a huge fee cost of a parameter unlock or PLC 
reload, i find EMC like old Phillips controls what you see is what you 
get in term of features, if the NC control can do it its there to be used.

before we made the upgrade we did look at new controls, Fagal, Fanuc, 
Mitsubishi etc but when you start going 5 axis, large program space. 
then add on new servo drives and motors. a new machine would be the 
cheaper option in some respect. its all swings and roundabouts in areas.
> Forget the fancy math. Mostly CAM takes care of that. Complicated sub
> routines aren't used a lot either.
>
> Main reasons being, the operator is likely to know nothing more than the
> standard Fanuc stuff and if he doesn't understand the code your asking
> for trouble. Commercially, time is money, learning advanced math is
> almost certainly not high on a list of priorities.
>   
what is this advanced math? do you mean programing complex parts etc.
yes CAM systems have taken over alot these days on multi axis etc but i 
do know alot of shops that do programing online at control. we dont do 
as much but small part drill few holes etc we will do it online as EMC 
takes in standard Gcode theres no need for code change much (if any).
> Sub routines are devalued because you often can't safely pause and
> restart in one, and that is a point generally you are going to struggle
> with trying to promote EMC. 
>   
Subs we only tend to use these days when running large production jobs 
with many parts on a jig so when a change needs to be made you dont need 
to go back to the CAM its one sub change that changes for many parts if 
need be. every one programs in different ways and has there likes and 
dislikes i know some ppl that have subs for G28 G91 Z0 X0 Y0 and call it 
eat time at start and tool change.
along with many other things.
> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
> would not consider a control system without this.
>   
EMC can do all this, u just need to know how to operate the control. if 
you can do this on a fanuc 6/10M or newer you can do it on EMC.
just pause program. job away to where ever. stop spindle
do what ever
restart spindle in MDI just like u would have to on fanuc. reload H 
offset if needed
then switch back to program pick run from line when in place away you go.

its how we have to do it on our fanuc 10 so its no show stoper for us.

if your looking for a stop program, move up pick line and go
the devs keep visiting this option but there is soo many unknowns to 
take care of its a real nigh mare as not just the mill and lathe side of 
things. but the above works fine.

> As for the 2000 lines, it's probably more than adequate if he's only
> doing 2.5D work. 
>
> Steve Blackmore
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-09 Thread Jon Elson

> Frank Tkalcevic wrote:
>   
>> How do you generate your step pulses?  When I was tunning, I would keep the
>> machine on and do an MDI move.  This doesn't work too well when the tuning
>> is so bad it faults when you enable the machine.
>>   
>> 
Hmm, looks like I missed part of your question.  If it is faulting 
immediately, there may be a reversal of the motor wires, or some other 
reason the servo diverges, when it is supposed to converge.  I show that 
sort of response in one of the pictures on my tutorial.  If you turn the 
gain down, then you may be able to keep it from going wild immediately.
I have software-controlled following error in EMC, not in the drive, so 
I can set it quite wide when starting out.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request (commercial use of EMC)

2009-08-09 Thread Jim Fleig - CNC Services
Steve's comments below are right on target with my commercial customers 
responses.  As I am not a programmer, I have much admiration for everything 
that EMC can do currently and the programmmers that made it happen.  I look 
forward to the features mentioned below.  Is it to early for Christmas wish 
lists?

:-)

Jim


- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Blackmore" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request


> On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:54:35 +0200, you wrote:
>
*snip*
>
> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
> would not consider a control system without this.
>
*snip*.
>
> Steve Blackmore
> --
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-09 Thread Steve Blackmore
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:54:35 +0200, you wrote:

>Also the old Fanuc does not accept any parameters of math and 
>a max. of about 2000 lines of code.So I am trying to convince him to 
>retrofit to EMC to greatly enhance his possibilities.

Hi Rob, the only selling point you have is cost if it's in a commercial
environment. 

Forget the fancy math. Mostly CAM takes care of that. Complicated sub
routines aren't used a lot either.

Main reasons being, the operator is likely to know nothing more than the
standard Fanuc stuff and if he doesn't understand the code your asking
for trouble. Commercially, time is money, learning advanced math is
almost certainly not high on a list of priorities.

Sub routines are devalued because you often can't safely pause and
restart in one, and that is a point generally you are going to struggle
with trying to promote EMC. 

The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
business associates over the last few months and every one said they
would not consider a control system without this.

As for the 2000 lines, it's probably more than adequate if he's only
doing 2.5D work. 

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread Jon Elson
Frank Tkalcevic wrote:
>> I have a very well-hidden article on tuning.  
>> 
>
> Excellent.  And very well hidden.  Every week I seem to accidentaly find a
> great article on the emc web site.
>
>   
>> See http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
>> 
>
>
> How do you generate your step pulses?  When I was tunning, I would keep the
> machine on and do an MDI move.  This doesn't work too well when the tuning
> is so bad it faults when you enable the machine.
>   
These are not "steps", they are the usual trapezoidal ramp-up, coast, 
ramp-down of a manual jog.
A program that did :
G01 X1 F25
X0
(repeat)
would accomplish the same thing, of course.  I usually just do it manually.

Actually, this suits me better than a real step.  You get 4 distinct 
regions (stationary, accelerating, running at constant velocity, and 
decelerating).
Each has little differences in behavior (like the accel and decel have 
friction and mass working in opposite directions on them) and you want 
all 4 regions to have minimal following error.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread Frank Tkalcevic
> I have a very well-hidden article on tuning.  

Excellent.  And very well hidden.  Every week I seem to accidentaly find a
great article on the emc web site.

> See http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers


How do you generate your step pulses?  When I was tunning, I would keep the
machine on and do an MDI move.  This doesn't work too well when the tuning
is so bad it faults when you enable the machine.


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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread Dale Grover
Jon and Robert,

Thanks--this link looks like just the thing.

--Dale

At 2:48 PM -0500 8/8/09, Jon Elson wrote:
>Dale Grover wrote:
>>  I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a
>>  graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a
>>  plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?
>>  
>I have a very well-hidden article on tuning.  it is aimed at my PWM
>servo system, but much of the info is applicable generally to any EMC2
>servo configuration.
>See http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
>
>Jon


At 8:42 PM +0100 8/8/09, robert wrote:
>What about this page?
>http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers
>
>here is my mill i retro fitted from a Mitsubishi M0 control to EMC
>http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,30/id,559/lang,en/
>
>the next retrofit is two Hardinge Superslants twin turret lathes.
>we are very pleased with our EMC fitted on our Leadwell has brought a
>old 1985 machine upto a pretty high standard to todays machines
>using its original hardware(servos etc) making is very affordable.
>
>if you looking for feedback on people that have retro fitted big iron
>let us know will happy to add my two cents worth.
>rob
>
>
>>  Dale Grover wrote:
>>  
>>>  I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a
>>>  graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a
>>>  plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?
>>>
>>>  Also, would be happy to get feedback on the article so far.  Email me
>>>  if interested.
>>>
>  >>

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread Jon Elson
Dale Grover wrote:
> I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a 
> graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a 
> plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?
>   
I have a very well-hidden article on tuning.  it is aimed at my PWM 
servo system, but much of the info is applicable generally to any EMC2 
servo configuration.
See http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread robert
What about this page?
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?PWM_Servo_Amplifiers

here is my mill i retro fitted from a Mitsubishi M0 control to EMC
http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,30/id,559/lang,en/

the next retrofit is two Hardinge Superslants twin turret lathes.
we are very pleased with our EMC fitted on our Leadwell has brought a 
old 1985 machine upto a pretty high standard to todays machines
using its original hardware(servos etc) making is very affordable.

if you looking for feedback on people that have retro fitted big iron 
let us know will happy to add my two cents worth.
rob


> Dale Grover wrote:
>   
>> I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a 
>> graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a 
>> plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?
>>
>> Also, would be happy to get feedback on the article so far.  Email me 
>> if interested.
>>   
>> 
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread Rob Jansen
Dale,

if the article is to show EMC capabilities in order to promote the 
retrofitting of EMC I am interested.

I have a business relation with two of the same milling centers with 
very old Fanuc controllers.
One is broken (PC problem) and repair will cost more than an EMC 
retrofit. Also the old Fanuc does not accept any parameters of math and 
a max. of about 2000 lines of code.So I am trying to convince him to 
retrofit to EMC to greatly enhance his possibilities.

Regards,

Rob

Dale Grover wrote:
> I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a 
> graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a 
> plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?
>
> Also, would be happy to get feedback on the article so far.  Email me 
> if interested.
>   


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[Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

2009-08-08 Thread Dale Grover
I'm writing up a little article on EMC and would like to include a 
graphic image of EMC being used to tune a servo.  Does anyone have a 
plot (before and after tuning) showing a step response for a servo?

Also, would be happy to get feedback on the article so far.  Email me 
if interested.

Thanks.

--Dale Grover

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what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with 
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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