Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 20 November 2018 14:29:53 Chris Albertson wrote:

> I think the only reason to have a UPS on a machine is if you actually
> wanted to run the machine after losing AC power.   that case the UPS
> would be sized to power the entire machine, motors and all.
>
Exactly. And in my case it won't need a whole lot of holdup time because 
theres a 20kw nat gas fed generator that is up and delivering power to 
the whole property by 15 seconds after the lights blink off. Worst case 
I'd need 10kw for say 20 seconds. That generator was about $8.5k 
installed, cheaper than a ups that honking big. But to have a power hit 
while one of my machines was doing something (they aren't on the ups 
driving parts of this room) has yet to wreck a part, or a filesystem. 
But thats only happend a time or maybe two in the last 15 years.

> If you are concerned about file system corruption on power failure,
> two things can help (1) use a modern Journaled file system.  These are
> VERY crash resistant.  Most Linux distributions do use Journaled file
> system like ext4. ext4 is very robust.and if you are very worried
> use a write-only file system to hold all the non-volatile files.  
> This method is near "bomb proof" but takes some effort to set up.
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 7:10 AM Thaddeus Waldner  
wrote:
> > My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an
> > uninterruptible power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are
> > normally served by a UPS?

The only thing I'd worry about on this surface grinder is the z drive if 
its a servo which on loss of power may run free, dropping the wheel into 
the work. But immobilizing that would be far easier done by dropping a 
lock onto it on loss of power. If the lock hooked into a drive belt, it 
might be possible to pull the belt a tooth or so higher if its rigged 
right, lifting the wheel a few microns for the ultimate in safety for 
the workpiece.

If a stepper, it usually has enough power off cogging to hold it where it 
was. I've never had the head on the G0704 try to fall unless the motor 
is removed.

My $0,02.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Chris Albertson]

I think the only reason to have a UPS on a machine is if you actually
wanted to run the machine after losing AC power.   that case the UPS would
be sized to power the entire machine, motors and all.

If you are concerned about file system corruption on power failure, two
things can help (1) use a modern Journaled file system.  These are VERY
crash resistant.  Most Linux distributions do use Journaled file system
like ext4. ext4 is very robust.and if you are very worried use a
write-only file system to hold all the non-volatile files.   This method is
near "bomb proof" but takes some effort to set up.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 7:10 AM Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

>
> My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an uninterruptible
> power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally served by a UPS?
>

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Jon Elson]

On 11/20/2018 09:06 AM, Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

I’m in the process of converting a small medium-duty table router to work with 
a LinuxCNC controller. I am duly impressed that such a wealth of technical 
information and such a powerful and robust industrial automation tool should be 
available to the public, free of charge. Many thanks to all who make it 
possible.

I have completed a working concept of the controller, as in, I had it up and 
running and actually cut some parts.

My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an uninterruptible 
power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally served by a UPS?

Unless the SPINDLE is also on the UPS, then it doesn't make 
much sense.  The UPS-powered CNC control would be unaware 
the spindle had stopped, and cause a crash.  Now, in some 
cases, the spindle drive could be set up to cause an E-stop, 
and thus prevent a big mess, when it loses power.  The VFD 
on my mill is set up like that.


Jon


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[Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Roland Jollivet]

I once worked on an old Sodick wire eroder. It had a large 12V battery
built in. But I can't remember to what extent the battery kept circuitry
alive in the event of a power fail.



On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 19:57, Les Newell  wrote:

> I have done quite a lot of maintenance work on various industrial
> machines. I can't think of even one machine I have worked on that had a
> UPS fitted. I have seen a few with line conditioning circuitry where
> they have particularly noisy supply. If power cuts are a regular
> occurrence I suppose a UPS may be of some benefit but it would have to
> be big enough to run the whole machine, which is likely to be very
> expensive.
>
> Linux is pretty tolerant to being powered off without warning and it is
> very rare to get any form of filesystem corruption from doing so. All of
> my machines have the computer buried inside and when I am done I simply
> turn the whole machine off. I've never seen any problems with doing this.
>
> Les
>
> On 20/11/2018 15:06, Thaddeus Waldner wrote:
> > I’m in the process of converting a small medium-duty table router to
> work with a LinuxCNC controller. I am duly impressed that such a wealth of
> technical information and such a powerful and robust industrial automation
> tool should be available to the public, free of charge. Many thanks to all
> who make it possible.
> >
> > I have completed a working concept of the controller, as in, I had it up
> and running and actually cut some parts.
> >
> > My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an
> uninterruptible power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally
> served by a UPS?
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Les Newell]

I have done quite a lot of maintenance work on various industrial 
machines. I can't think of even one machine I have worked on that had a 
UPS fitted. I have seen a few with line conditioning circuitry where 
they have particularly noisy supply. If power cuts are a regular 
occurrence I suppose a UPS may be of some benefit but it would have to 
be big enough to run the whole machine, which is likely to be very 
expensive.


Linux is pretty tolerant to being powered off without warning and it is 
very rare to get any form of filesystem corruption from doing so. All of 
my machines have the computer buried inside and when I am done I simply 
turn the whole machine off. I've never seen any problems with doing this.


Les

On 20/11/2018 15:06, Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

I’m in the process of converting a small medium-duty table router to work with 
a LinuxCNC controller. I am duly impressed that such a wealth of technical 
information and such a powerful and robust industrial automation tool should be 
available to the public, free of charge. Many thanks to all who make it 
possible.

I have completed a working concept of the controller, as in, I had it up and 
running and actually cut some parts.

My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an uninterruptible 
power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally served by a UPS?





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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 16:54, Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

>  I’m intrigued by the “record the line number and then shut down” part. Is 
> this something that the user would do manually after noticing that the power 
> was cut or is this somehow automated?

A userspace HAL component could record motion.program-line to a file
when the UPS signalled a fault.
I think that the component would need to pass-through the e-stop
condition so that it gets written to file before being set to zero by
e-stop.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Marius Liebenberg]

The machine stops when the emergency button is pushed. The power to  the 
motors are cut and the programs stops at a line. The operator records 
that line (or at least I do ) and then the job can be run from there or 
the closest line that is not in a canned cycle or and incremental 
command.

Remember this is crisis recovery and not the norm.

-- Original Message --
From: "Thaddeus Waldner" 
To: "Marius Liebenberg" ; "Enhanced Machine 
Controller (EMC)" 

Sent: 2018-11-20 18:50:26
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

I’m intrigued by the “record the line number and then shut down” part. 
Is this something that the user would do manually after noticing that 
the power was cut or is this somehow automated?


 On Nov 20, 2018, at 10:10 AM, Marius Liebenberg 
 wrote:


 I agree with Andy. I put my controllers on a UPS and then have a 
signal that is wired through a drop-out relay that is also connected 
to the emergency stop switch. So when the power fails the machine is 
stopped and you can record line numbers at least and then shut down.


 -- Original Message --
 From: "andy pugh" 
 To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 


 Sent: 2018-11-20 17:14:59
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller


 On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 15:10, Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

  My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an 
uninterruptible power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are 
normally served by a UPS?


 I doubt that it is common to attempt to machine on standby power, 
but
 I can see good reasons to try to keep the controller alive to 
perform

 a controlled axis/spindle stop and graceful shutdown (including
 writing to the log files, tool-table etc)

 --
 atp
 "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
 designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
 lunatics."
 — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Thaddeus Waldner]

I’m intrigued by the “record the line number and then shut down” part. Is this 
something that the user would do manually after noticing that the power was cut 
or is this somehow automated? 

> On Nov 20, 2018, at 10:10 AM, Marius Liebenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> I agree with Andy. I put my controllers on a UPS and then have a signal that 
> is wired through a drop-out relay that is also connected to the emergency 
> stop switch. So when the power fails the machine is stopped and you can 
> record line numbers at least and then shut down.
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "andy pugh" 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Sent: 2018-11-20 17:14:59
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller
> 
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 15:10, Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:
>> 
>>>  My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an uninterruptible 
>>> power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally served by a UPS?
>> 
>> I doubt that it is common to attempt to machine on standby power, but
>> I can see good reasons to try to keep the controller alive to perform
>> a controlled axis/spindle stop and graceful shutdown (including
>> writing to the log files, tool-table etc)
>> 
>> --
>> atp
>> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
>> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
>> lunatics."
>> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Marius Liebenberg]

I agree with Andy. I put my controllers on a UPS and then have a signal 
that is wired through a drop-out relay that is also connected to the 
emergency stop switch. So when the power fails the machine is stopped 
and you can record line numbers at least and then shut down.


-- Original Message --
From: "andy pugh" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 


Sent: 2018-11-20 17:14:59
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller


On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 15:10, Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

  My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an 
uninterruptible power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are 
normally served by a UPS?


I doubt that it is common to attempt to machine on standby power, but
I can see good reasons to try to keep the controller alive to perform
a controlled axis/spindle stop and graceful shutdown (including
writing to the log files, tool-table etc)

--
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 20 November 2018 10:06:20 Thaddeus Waldner wrote:

> I’m in the process of converting a small medium-duty table router to
> work with a LinuxCNC controller. I am duly impressed that such a
> wealth of technical information and such a powerful and robust
> industrial automation tool should be available to the public, free of
> charge. Many thanks to all who make it possible.
>
> I have completed a working concept of the controller, as in, I had it
> up and running and actually cut some parts.
>
> My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an
> uninterruptible power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are
> normally served by a UPS?
>
Thats entirely up to you, but if you did, the ups should be big enough to 
run the whole machine And last long enough to finish the job its 
running. You aren't going to buy such a ups at Staples.
>
>
>
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-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] UPS on controller

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 15:10, Thaddeus Waldner  wrote:

>  My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an uninterruptible 
> power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally served by a UPS?

I doubt that it is common to attempt to machine on standby power, but
I can see good reasons to try to keep the controller alive to perform
a controlled axis/spindle stop and graceful shutdown (including
writing to the log files, tool-table etc)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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[Emc-users] UPS on controller

[Thaddeus Waldner]

I’m in the process of converting a small medium-duty table router to work with 
a LinuxCNC controller. I am duly impressed that such a wealth of technical 
information and such a powerful and robust industrial automation tool should be 
available to the public, free of charge. Many thanks to all who make it 
possible.

I have completed a working concept of the controller, as in, I had it up and 
running and actually cut some parts.

My question is, *should* a controller such as this have an uninterruptible 
power supply? If so, what parts of the machine are normally served by a UPS?




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