Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 11 May 2015 07:23:47 Peter Homann wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> The chemical is Galden 230, an inset liquid with a precise boiling
> temperature with a very dense energy mist. It costs about $1000 per
> litre. That's why you don't want the vapour to escape. :)

Eeeeyuueew, at that price, you don't want to smell it, period.

> There is the Galden HT 230 version of the liquid that it 1/2 the
> price. It's boiling temp has a 5deg variance whereas the Galden 230
> has a 1C variance.
>
> All you need is some very cheap equipment. An induction heater plus a
> tall pot such as an asparagus cooker.
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Norpro-Asparagus-Stainless-Steel-Cooker-Ste
>amer-/131463399197
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Star-Chef-Electric-Induction-Cooktop-Port
>able-Digital-Cooker-Single-Hot-Plate-/39092825
>
> If you search for DIY vapour phase you will find a lot of information.
>
> Have a look at this.
>
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/msg657767
>/#msg657767

ATM the lathe is running, hopefully doing as I've told it, but I'd better 
go back & watch it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
> On 11/05/2015 6:35 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 10 May 2015 22:40:58 Peter wrote:
> >> Surface mount is predominately done in relow ovens. There are not a
> >> lot of throgh hole components that are designed for the reflow
> >> process. Also appling the solder pate is problematic. There are
> >> through hole connectors that are designed for reflow ovens. The
> >> paste stencils have larger opening for the through hole parts so
> >> that enough paste is applied. Also the hole size for the through
> >> hole parts becomes more critical. I have done it on one of my
> >> boards where I was using a DIP8 through hole socket. Works OK.
> >>
> >> The KISS machines are designed for through hole parts only.
> >>
> >> I had a chance to purchase a benchtop vapour phase solding machine
> >> but wasn't quick enough. It's a very simple process. The machines
> >> use a liquid (expensive) that boils at 235C. The process is to heat
> >> the liquid to the boiling temp is a container until the vapour
> >> fills the container. There is a cooling coil at the top of the
> >> container that condenses the vapour if it rises too high as you
> >> don't want it to escape.
> >
> > Might that be Safflower oil? It has a quite high flash point, and I
> > have used it in a misting system while carving alu. It does extend
> > tool life considerably by blocking the alu's acess to oxygen in the
> > air, slowing the alox formation that eats even carbide tooling. 
> > Disadvantage of that was that I had no vapor removal system, and the
> > 2 oz of oil used filled the building with such a fog that it took
> > considerable cleaning to remove from my glasses.  And I didn't want
> > to think about what it might be doing to the efficiency of my lungs!
> >
> > Doing a board by lowering it into the hot vapor would rapidly bring
> > the board to the vapor temp by the vapor condensing on the board,
> > and would be pretty uniform.  But I'd not hazard a guess as to the
> > effects of the oil on the solder pastes predeposited.  In blocking
> > oxygen access as it condensed on the boards components it would
> > enhance the activity of the rosins in the paste, potentially makeing
> > a very good "gas tight" joint. But would the hot oil also degrade
> > the resins in the solder paste.  IDK.
> >
> >> The PCB is then lowered into the vapour. The PCB is then heated to
> >> the vapour temperature. The advantage of this system is that unlike
> >> infared reflow, larger components don't end up as a heat sink
> >> causing uneaven temperatures across boards components.
> >>
> >> I know guys who have made vapour reflow maching with a 5 gallon
> >> drum, PID heater along with a cooling coil wrapped around the top
> >> of the drum. I've never tried it though.
> >
> > The amount of energy needed to achieve that vapor would indicate a
> > need for some decent insulation around the bucket, but if the
> > cooling coil did its job, and running water from the cold water
> > faucet would do for that I'd think, you wouldn't need that much oil,
> > half a cm in the bottom, so heating time to operating temps could be
> > fairly short. Maybe a minute a board, you could have 100 boards
> > ready to go and do them in under 2 hours one at a time.  Several in
> > a wire basket a bit smaller than the bucket would speed that up.  8
> > up maybe for a small board?
> >
> > Washing the oil back off the board would take some aromatics,
> > alcohol for instance.  That would also remove the rosins from the
> > paste, leaving it very clean indeed.  Food for an experiment?
> >
> >> Cheers,
> >> Peter
> >> Peter Homann
> >> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Peter Homann]

Hi Gene,

The chemical is Galden 230, an inset liquid with a precise boiling temperature 
with a very dense energy mist. It costs about $1000 per litre. That's why you 
don't want the vapour to escape. :)

There is the Galden HT 230 version of the liquid that it 1/2 the price. It's 
boiling temp has a 5deg variance whereas the Galden 230 has a 1C variance.

All you need is some very cheap equipment. An induction heater plus a tall pot 
such as an asparagus cooker.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Norpro-Asparagus-Stainless-Steel-Cooker-Steamer-/131463399197
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-Star-Chef-Electric-Induction-Cooktop-Portable-Digital-Cooker-Single-Hot-Plate-/39092825

If you search for DIY vapour phase you will find a lot of information.

Have a look at this.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/vapour-phase-soldering/msg657767/#msg657767

Cheers,

Peter


On 11/05/2015 6:35 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
>
> On Sunday 10 May 2015 22:40:58 Peter wrote:
>> Surface mount is predominately done in relow ovens. There are not a
>> lot of throgh hole components that are designed for the reflow
>> process. Also appling the solder pate is problematic. There are
>> through hole connectors that are designed for reflow ovens. The paste
>> stencils have larger opening for the through hole parts so that enough
>> paste is applied. Also the hole size for the through hole parts
>> becomes more critical. I have done it on one of my boards where I was
>> using a DIP8 through hole socket. Works OK.
>>
>> The KISS machines are designed for through hole parts only.
>>
>> I had a chance to purchase a benchtop vapour phase solding machine but
>> wasn't quick enough. It's a very simple process. The machines use a
>> liquid (expensive) that boils at 235C. The process is to heat the
>> liquid to the boiling temp is a container until the vapour fills the
>> container. There is a cooling coil at the top of the container that
>> condenses the vapour if it rises too high as you don't want it to
>> escape.
>
> Might that be Safflower oil? It has a quite high flash point, and I have
> used it in a misting system while carving alu. It does extend tool life
> considerably by blocking the alu's acess to oxygen in the air, slowing
> the alox formation that eats even carbide tooling.  Disadvantage of that
> was that I had no vapor removal system, and the 2 oz of oil used filled
> the building with such a fog that it took considerable cleaning to
> remove from my glasses.  And I didn't want to think about what it might
> be doing to the efficiency of my lungs!
>
> Doing a board by lowering it into the hot vapor would rapidly bring the
> board to the vapor temp by the vapor condensing on the board, and would
> be pretty uniform.  But I'd not hazard a guess as to the effects of the
> oil on the solder pastes predeposited.  In blocking oxygen access as it
> condensed on the boards components it would enhance the activity of the
> rosins in the paste, potentially makeing a very good "gas tight" joint.
> But would the hot oil also degrade the resins in the solder paste.  IDK.
>
>> The PCB is then lowered into the vapour. The PCB is then heated to the
>> vapour temperature. The advantage of this system is that unlike
>> infared reflow, larger components don't end up as a heat sink causing
>> uneaven temperatures across boards components.
>>
>> I know guys who have made vapour reflow maching with a 5 gallon drum,
>> PID heater along with a cooling coil wrapped around the top of the
>> drum. I've never tried it though.
>
> The amount of energy needed to achieve that vapor would indicate a need
> for some decent insulation around the bucket, but if the cooling coil
> did its job, and running water from the cold water faucet would do for
> that I'd think, you wouldn't need that much oil, half a cm in the
> bottom, so heating time to operating temps could be fairly short. Maybe
> a minute a board, you could have 100 boards ready to go and do them in
> under 2 hours one at a time.  Several in a wire basket a bit smaller
> than the bucket would speed that up.  8 up maybe for a small board?
>
> Washing the oil back off the board would take some aromatics, alcohol for
> instance.  That would also remove the rosins from the paste, leaving it
> very clean indeed.  Food for an experiment?
>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter
>> Peter Homann
>> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 May 2015 22:40:58 Peter wrote:
> Surface mount is predominately done in relow ovens. There are not a
> lot of throgh hole components that are designed for the reflow
> process. Also appling the solder pate is problematic. There are
> through hole connectors that are designed for reflow ovens. The paste
> stencils have larger opening for the through hole parts so that enough
> paste is applied. Also the hole size for the through hole parts
> becomes more critical. I have done it on one of my boards where I was
> using a DIP8 through hole socket. Works OK.
>
> The KISS machines are designed for through hole parts only.
>
> I had a chance to purchase a benchtop vapour phase solding machine but
> wasn't quick enough. It's a very simple process. The machines use a
> liquid (expensive) that boils at 235C. The process is to heat the
> liquid to the boiling temp is a container until the vapour fills the
> container. There is a cooling coil at the top of the container that
> condenses the vapour if it rises too high as you don't want it to
> escape.

Might that be Safflower oil? It has a quite high flash point, and I have 
used it in a misting system while carving alu. It does extend tool life 
considerably by blocking the alu's acess to oxygen in the air, slowing 
the alox formation that eats even carbide tooling.  Disadvantage of that 
was that I had no vapor removal system, and the 2 oz of oil used filled 
the building with such a fog that it took considerable cleaning to 
remove from my glasses.  And I didn't want to think about what it might 
be doing to the efficiency of my lungs!

Doing a board by lowering it into the hot vapor would rapidly bring the 
board to the vapor temp by the vapor condensing on the board, and would 
be pretty uniform.  But I'd not hazard a guess as to the effects of the 
oil on the solder pastes predeposited.  In blocking oxygen access as it 
condensed on the boards components it would enhance the activity of the 
rosins in the paste, potentially makeing a very good "gas tight" joint. 
But would the hot oil also degrade the resins in the solder paste.  IDK.

> The PCB is then lowered into the vapour. The PCB is then heated to the
> vapour temperature. The advantage of this system is that unlike
> infared reflow, larger components don't end up as a heat sink causing
> uneaven temperatures across boards components.
>
> I know guys who have made vapour reflow maching with a 5 gallon drum,
> PID heater along with a cooling coil wrapped around the top of the
> drum. I've never tried it though.

The amount of energy needed to achieve that vapor would indicate a need 
for some decent insulation around the bucket, but if the cooling coil 
did its job, and running water from the cold water faucet would do for 
that I'd think, you wouldn't need that much oil, half a cm in the 
bottom, so heating time to operating temps could be fairly short. Maybe 
a minute a board, you could have 100 boards ready to go and do them in 
under 2 hours one at a time.  Several in a wire basket a bit smaller 
than the bucket would speed that up.  8 up maybe for a small board?

Washing the oil back off the board would take some aromatics, alcohol for 
instance.  That would also remove the rosins from the paste, leaving it 
very clean indeed.  Food for an experiment?

> Cheers,
> Peter
> Peter Homann
> http://www.homanndesigns.com/store

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Peter]

 

Surface mount is predominately done in relow ovens. There are not a lot of
throgh hole components that are designed for the reflow process. Also
appling the solder pate is problematic. There are through hole connectors
that are designed for reflow ovens. The paste stencils have larger opening
for the through hole parts so that enough paste is applied. Also the hole
size for the through hole parts becomes more critical. I have done it on
one of my boards where I was using a DIP8 through hole socket. Works OK.

The KISS machines are designed for through hole parts only.

I had a chance to purchase a benchtop vapour phase solding machine but
wasn't quick enough. It's a very simple process. The machines use a liquid
(expensive) that boils at 235C. The process is to heat the liquid to the
boiling temp is a container until the vapour fills the container. There is
a cooling coil at the top of the container that condenses the vapour if it
rises too high as you don't want it to escape.

The PCB is then lowered into the vapour. The PCB is then heated to the
vapour temperature. The advantage of this system is that unlike infared
reflow, larger components don't end up as a heat sink causing uneaven
temperatures across boards components.

I know guys who have made vapour reflow maching with a 5 gallon drum, PID
heater along with a cooling coil wrapped around the top of the drum. I've
never tried it though.

Cheers,

 

Peter

--- 
Peter Homann 
http://www.homanndesigns.com/store

On Mon 11/05/15 10:51 AM , Gene Heskett  wrote:

 On Sunday 10 May 2015 17:41:01 Peter Homann wrote:
 > Hi Gene,
 >
 > The selective soldering machine I droll over is the KISS range by Ace
 > Production.http://www.ace-protech.com/product/kiss-100/
[1]">http://www.ace-protech.com/product/kiss-100/
 >
 > The have the solder bath on an X/Y axis that moves around under the
 > board. The Z axis is lifted on 4 screw jacks. When they first started
 > the guys were asking question about the best way to lift the Z-axis on
 > the DIYCNC and Mach3 yahoo groups. The system is controlled by Mach3.
 > I don't know if they still do. They have quite a lot of good videos
 > showing the process and capability.
 > http://www.ace-protech.com/video-library/
[2]">http://www.ace-protech.com/video-library/

 Looks like it does a pretty decent job, but having the job markers
 visibly trailing the board motion would bother me some, at least till I
 got used to it.

 But, he didn't use it for the whole board, apparently only for the thru
 hole parts. The SMT stuff I'd have to assume were done in a reflow
 oven? He didn't say, but it makes sense. Whole board at once seems
 like it makes perfect sense as long as it doesn't contribute to the
 infant mortality rate.

 > It is a really good example of a startup company doing things right. I
 > wish I'd considered buying one of their machines when they first
 > started up.

 It's never too late. :)

 > Cheers,
 >
 > Peter
 >
 > On 10/05/2015 1:21 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
 > > On Saturday 09 May 2015 22:39:24 Peter Homann wrote:
 > >> Hi Gene,
 > >>
 > >> Yeah, it is does not always do a great job. It takes a lot of
 > >> fiddling to get everything correct. I'm still not entirely happy
 > >> with the results.
 > >
 > > And while I am obviously a fan of LinuxCNC, thats not saying there
 > > aren't other solutions if you are more familiar with Mach3. To
 > > quote a very old saw, you went to the races and ran what you brung.
 > > :)
 > >
 > >> As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a
 > >> solder fountain.
 > >
 > > That I am not at all familiar with.
 > >
 > >> As to Mach3, I used it as that's what I'm most familiar with. I did
 > >> a great job of controlling the 3 axis gantry and I wanted to do is
 > >> as quickly as possible. Controlling the soldering head module was a
 > >> bit more problematic. In the end I used the G82 drill cycle (with a
 > >> dwell) and had the Mach3 macropump cancel the dwell when it
 > >> received the soldering cycle finished signal from the soldering
 > >> head controller.
 > >
 > > How is that determined? Perhaps by the amount of solder that has
 > > fed once it has touched the work and stopped till some melts? A
 > > smaller fixed amount, perhaps with a second or so longer dwell
 > > before the iron is withdrawn to allow better penetration into the
 > > gap between pin and plated thru hole? However I'd have no clue how
 > > to go about determining that exactly .075" of solder has been
 > > melted. Solving that by something other than elapsed dwell time
 > > would seem to be something that needed a good solution.
 > >
 > >> The reason for using a drill cycle was that I wanted to use the
 > >> excellon drill file from the PCB CAD software as the starting
 > >> point. I used Sheetcam to convert it to Gcode and went from there.
 > >
 > > Sounds perfectly reasonable. pcb2gcode does a similar file I can
 > > drive my mill with. All my comments are based o

Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 May 2015 17:41:01 Peter Homann wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> The selective soldering machine I droll over is the KISS range by Ace
> Production.http://www.ace-protech.com/product/kiss-100/
>
> The have the solder bath on an X/Y axis that moves around under the
> board. The Z axis is lifted on 4 screw jacks. When they first started
> the guys were asking question about the best way to lift the Z-axis on
> the DIYCNC and Mach3 yahoo groups. The system is controlled by Mach3.
> I don't know if they still do. They have quite  a lot of good videos
> showing the process and capability.
> http://www.ace-protech.com/video-library/

Looks like it does a pretty decent job, but having the job markers 
visibly trailing the board motion would bother me some, at least till I 
got used to it.

But, he didn't use it for the whole board, apparently only for the thru 
hole parts.  The SMT stuff I'd have to assume were done in a reflow 
oven?  He didn't say, but it makes sense.  Whole board at once seems 
like it makes perfect sense as long as it doesn't contribute to the 
infant mortality rate.

> It is a really good example of a startup company doing things right. I
> wish I'd considered buying one of their machines when they first
> started up.

It's never too late. :)

> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
> On 10/05/2015 1:21 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 09 May 2015 22:39:24 Peter Homann wrote:
> >> Hi Gene,
> >>
> >> Yeah, it is does not always do a great job. It takes a lot of
> >> fiddling to get everything correct. I'm still not entirely happy
> >> with the results.
> >
> > And while I am obviously a fan of LinuxCNC, thats not saying there
> > aren't other solutions if you are more familiar with Mach3.  To
> > quote a very old saw, you went to the races and ran what you brung.
> > :)
> >
> >> As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a
> >> solder fountain.
> >
> > That I am not at all familiar with.
> >
> >> As to Mach3, I used it as that's what I'm most familiar with. I did
> >> a great job of controlling the 3 axis gantry and I wanted to do is
> >> as quickly as possible. Controlling the soldering head module was a
> >> bit more problematic. In the end I used the G82 drill cycle (with a
> >> dwell) and had the Mach3 macropump cancel the dwell when it
> >> received the soldering cycle finished signal from the soldering
> >> head controller.
> >
> > How is that determined?  Perhaps by the amount of solder that has
> > fed once it has touched the work and stopped till some melts?  A
> > smaller fixed amount, perhaps with a second or so longer dwell
> > before the iron is withdrawn to allow better penetration into the
> > gap between pin and plated thru hole?  However I'd have no clue how
> > to go about determining that exactly .075" of solder has been
> > melted.  Solving that by something other than elapsed dwell time
> > would seem to be something that needed a good solution.
> >
> >> The reason for using a drill cycle was that I wanted to use the
> >> excellon drill file from the PCB CAD software as the starting
> >> point. I used Sheetcam to convert it to Gcode and went from there.
> >
> > Sounds perfectly reasonable. pcb2gcode does a similar file I can
> > drive my mill with.  All my comments are based on having a hot
> > soldering iron in one hand since I was about 14 years old.  And I
> > had to learn the military way in '60 when I got hired on as a field
> > checkout tech while building some of the first Titan ICBM's.  They
> > don't like solder, claiming if a wire wrapped around a turret post
> > was more than 50% covered, that made it too hard to grab the end and
> > unwind it, cold.
> >
> > Fluxes have come a long ways too since those days, unfortunately the
> > hands are not as steady as they once were.
> >
> > So its safe to say that I am not the man I once was, even once. :)
> >
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> On 10/05/2015 12:48 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> On Saturday 09 May 2015 05:43:10 Peter Homann wrote:
>  Hi,
> 
>  This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general
>  purpose robot, mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine
>  has a soldering head on it.
>  http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl
> e& id=
>  53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55
> 
>  I year or so ago I converted it to run under Mach3 as the
>  original interface was such a pain, as it only had a teach mode.
>  The conversion is detailed here.
>  http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl
> e& id=
>  55:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3&catid=34:cnc-pro
> je cts& Itemid=55
>  http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=articl
> e& id=
>  65:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepp
> er -par t-2&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
>  http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_cont

Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Peter Homann]

Hi Gene,

The selective soldering machine I droll over is the KISS range by Ace 
Production.http://www.ace-protech.com/product/kiss-100/

The have the solder bath on an X/Y axis that moves around under the board. The 
Z axis is lifted on 4 screw jacks. When they first started the guys were 
asking question about the best way to lift the Z-axis on the DIYCNC and Mach3 
yahoo groups. The system is controlled by Mach3. I don't know if they still 
do. They have quite  a lot of good videos showing the process and capability.
http://www.ace-protech.com/video-library/

It is a really good example of a startup company doing things right. I wish 
I'd considered buying one of their machines when they first started up.

Cheers,

Peter

On 10/05/2015 1:21 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 09 May 2015 22:39:24 Peter Homann wrote:
>> Hi Gene,
>>
>> Yeah, it is does not always do a great job. It takes a lot of fiddling
>> to get everything correct. I'm still not entirely happy with the
>> results.
>
> And while I am obviously a fan of LinuxCNC, thats not saying there aren't
> other solutions if you are more familiar with Mach3.  To quote a very
> old saw, you went to the races and ran what you brung. :)
>
>> As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a
>> solder fountain.
>
> That I am not at all familiar with.
>
>> As to Mach3, I used it as that's what I'm most familiar with. I did a
>> great job of controlling the 3 axis gantry and I wanted to do is as
>> quickly as possible. Controlling the soldering head module was a bit
>> more problematic. In the end I used the G82 drill cycle (with a dwell)
>> and had the Mach3 macropump cancel the dwell when it received the
>> soldering cycle finished signal from the soldering head controller.
>
> How is that determined?  Perhaps by the amount of solder that has fed
> once it has touched the work and stopped till some melts?  A smaller
> fixed amount, perhaps with a second or so longer dwell before the iron
> is withdrawn to allow better penetration into the gap between pin and
> plated thru hole?  However I'd have no clue how to go about determining
> that exactly .075" of solder has been melted.  Solving that by something
> other than elapsed dwell time would seem to be something that needed a
> good solution.
>>
>> The reason for using a drill cycle was that I wanted to use the
>> excellon drill file from the PCB CAD software as the starting point. I
>> used Sheetcam to convert it to Gcode and went from there.
>
> Sounds perfectly reasonable. pcb2gcode does a similar file I can drive my
> mill with.  All my comments are based on having a hot soldering iron in
> one hand since I was about 14 years old.  And I had to learn the
> military way in '60 when I got hired on as a field checkout tech while
> building some of the first Titan ICBM's.  They don't like solder,
> claiming if a wire wrapped around a turret post was more than 50%
> covered, that made it too hard to grab the end and unwind it, cold.
>
> Fluxes have come a long ways too since those days, unfortunately the
> hands are not as steady as they once were.
>
> So its safe to say that I am not the man I once was, even once. :)
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 10/05/2015 12:48 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Saturday 09 May 2015 05:43:10 Peter Homann wrote:
 Hi,

 This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general
 purpose robot, mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine has
 a soldering head on it.
 http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
 id= 53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55

 I year or so ago I converted it to run under Mach3 as the original
 interface was such a pain, as it only had a teach mode. The
 conversion is detailed here.
 http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
 id=
 55:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3&catid=34:cnc-proje
 cts& Itemid=55
 http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
 id=
 65:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper
 -par t-2&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
 http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
 id=
 66:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper
 -par t-3&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55

 Cheers,

 Peter
>>>
>>> Peter, thanks for sharing. I'd imagine that once programmed, that
>>> thing can do the board pictured in perhaps 10 minutes a board. A bit
>>> too much solder according to mill specs, but still Sweet!  But why
>>> Mach3?
>>>
 On 9/05/2015 1:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 05/08/2015 11:16 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
>> On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot,
>>> this could be a good XY base for that.
>>
>> I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email

Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 May 2015 05:08:08 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 09.05.15 23:21, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a
> > > solder fountain.
> >
> > That I am not at all familiar with.
>
> A static solder bath may be used to solder one connector or one chip
> to a board, but the production-line "solder baths" I'm familiar with
> feed boards through on a conveyor, preheat with infra-red lamps, then
> the board slowly traverses a centimeter above a bath of molten solder
> with a board-wide rectangular tube protruding a millimeter. As the
> board approaches, the solder pump starts, and a wave of solder
> fountains, striking the underside of the passing board. It gives
> complete through-hole solder penetration in half a second. More
> importantly, I guess, the inevitable surface oxide dross is entirely
> absent from the wave, having instantly slid to the surrounding lower
> pool. That pretty much eliminates solder bridges, so long as the board
> is fed
> perpendicular to the rows of chip pins. We always laid them out one
> way, to make that easy, and simplify chip insertion. (Dunno what the
> rules are for SMD)

I had visions of something like that, but the board wide nozzle hadn't 
crossed my mind yet.  Thanks Erik.
>
> I think that the operator skimmed the bath now and then, but on my few
> escapes from the design lab to the factory, boards just went through
> on their own, at a steady pace. (Up to "double-euro", which is 220 x
> 160 mm, IIRC. So a modest sized bath.)

I assume the tank of hot solder would only have to be a narrow one as 
long as it was as long as the board was wide.  I throw a few bullets out 
of wheel weights now & then for use in my Ruger Old Army, dross control 
in the pot is a PITA.

> Erik

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Erik Christiansen]

On 09.05.15 23:21, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a
> > solder fountain.
> 
> That I am not at all familiar with.

A static solder bath may be used to solder one connector or one chip to
a board, but the production-line "solder baths" I'm familiar with feed
boards through on a conveyor, preheat with infra-red lamps, then the
board slowly traverses a centimeter above a bath of molten solder with a
board-wide rectangular tube protruding a millimeter. As the board
approaches, the solder pump starts, and a wave of solder fountains,
striking the underside of the passing board. It gives complete
through-hole solder penetration in half a second. More importantly, I
guess, the inevitable surface oxide dross is entirely absent from the
wave, having instantly slid to the surrounding lower pool. That pretty
much eliminates solder bridges, so long as the board is fed
perpendicular to the rows of chip pins. We always laid them out one way,
to make that easy, and simplify chip insertion. (Dunno what the rules
are for SMD)

I think that the operator skimmed the bath now and then, but on my few
escapes from the design lab to the factory, boards just went through on
their own, at a steady pace. (Up to "double-euro", which is 220 x 160 mm,
IIRC. So a modest sized bath.)

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 09 May 2015 22:39:24 Peter Homann wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> Yeah, it is does not always do a great job. It takes a lot of fiddling
> to get everything correct. I'm still not entirely happy with the
> results.

And while I am obviously a fan of LinuxCNC, thats not saying there aren't 
other solutions if you are more familiar with Mach3.  To quote a very 
old saw, you went to the races and ran what you brung. :)

> As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a
> solder fountain.

That I am not at all familiar with.

> As to Mach3, I used it as that's what I'm most familiar with. I did a
> great job of controlling the 3 axis gantry and I wanted to do is as
> quickly as possible. Controlling the soldering head module was a bit
> more problematic. In the end I used the G82 drill cycle (with a dwell)
> and had the Mach3 macropump cancel the dwell when it received the
> soldering cycle finished signal from the soldering head controller.

How is that determined?  Perhaps by the amount of solder that has fed 
once it has touched the work and stopped till some melts?  A smaller 
fixed amount, perhaps with a second or so longer dwell before the iron 
is withdrawn to allow better penetration into the gap between pin and 
plated thru hole?  However I'd have no clue how to go about determining 
that exactly .075" of solder has been melted.  Solving that by something 
other than elapsed dwell time would seem to be something that needed a 
good solution.
>
> The reason for using a drill cycle was that I wanted to use the
> excellon drill file from the PCB CAD software as the starting point. I
> used Sheetcam to convert it to Gcode and went from there.

Sounds perfectly reasonable. pcb2gcode does a similar file I can drive my 
mill with.  All my comments are based on having a hot soldering iron in 
one hand since I was about 14 years old.  And I had to learn the 
military way in '60 when I got hired on as a field checkout tech while 
building some of the first Titan ICBM's.  They don't like solder, 
claiming if a wire wrapped around a turret post was more than 50% 
covered, that made it too hard to grab the end and unwind it, cold.

Fluxes have come a long ways too since those days, unfortunately the 
hands are not as steady as they once were.

So its safe to say that I am not the man I once was, even once. :)

> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
> On 10/05/2015 12:48 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Saturday 09 May 2015 05:43:10 Peter Homann wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general
> >> purpose robot, mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine has
> >> a soldering head on it.
> >> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
> >>id= 53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55
> >>
> >> I year or so ago I converted it to run under Mach3 as the original
> >> interface was such a pain, as it only had a teach mode. The
> >> conversion is detailed here.
> >> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
> >>id=
> >> 55:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3&catid=34:cnc-proje
> >>cts& Itemid=55
> >> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
> >>id=
> >> 65:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper
> >>-par t-2&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
> >> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&;
> >>id=
> >> 66:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper
> >>-par t-3&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Peter
> >
> > Peter, thanks for sharing. I'd imagine that once programmed, that
> > thing can do the board pictured in perhaps 10 minutes a board. A bit
> > too much solder according to mill specs, but still Sweet!  But why
> > Mach3?
> >
> >> On 9/05/2015 1:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> On 05/08/2015 11:16 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
>  On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:
> > Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot,
> > this could be a good XY base for that.
> 
>  I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email from this
>  group. a couple of days ago.
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pd9sY0Tjg
> 
>  You are right - this is a useful looking keenly priced base.
> >>>
> >>> I actually did this on my milling machine, as a test.
> >>> Results were not perfect, but showed the technology was at
> >>> least potentially workable.  I have since redone the thing
> >>> to use thicker solder wire, I bet it would work even better,
> >>> but have not set it up to try again.
> >>>
> >>> Jon
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>-- -- One dashboard for servers and applications across
> >>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support
> >>> with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that
> >>> give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with 

Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Peter Homann]

Hi Gene,

Yeah, it is does not always do a great job. It takes a lot of fiddling to get 
everything correct. I'm still not entirely happy with the results.

As far as I can tell the best selective soldering machines use a solder 
fountain.

As to Mach3, I used it as that's what I'm most familiar with. I did a great 
job of controlling the 3 axis gantry and I wanted to do is as quickly as 
possible.
Controlling the soldering head module was a bit more problematic. In the end I 
used the G82 drill cycle (with a dwell) and had the Mach3 macropump cancel the 
dwell when it received the soldering cycle finished signal from the soldering 
head controller.

The reason for using a drill cycle was that I wanted to use the excellon drill 
file from the PCB CAD software as the starting point. I used Sheetcam to 
convert it to Gcode and went from there.

Cheers,

Peter

On 10/05/2015 12:48 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 09 May 2015 05:43:10 Peter Homann wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general purpose
>> robot, mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine has a
>> soldering head on it.
>> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>> 53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55
>>
>> I year or so ago I converted it to run under Mach3 as the original
>> interface was such a pain, as it only had a teach mode. The conversion
>> is detailed here.
>> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>> 55:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3&catid=34:cnc-projects&
>> Itemid=55
>> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>> 65:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper-par
>> t-2&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
>> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>> 66:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper-par
>> t-3&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter
>
> Peter, thanks for sharing. I'd imagine that once programmed, that thing
> can do the board pictured in perhaps 10 minutes a board. A bit too much
> solder according to mill specs, but still Sweet!  But why Mach3?
>
>> On 9/05/2015 1:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
>>> On 05/08/2015 11:16 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
 On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:
> Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot,
> this could be a good XY base for that.

 I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email from this
 group. a couple of days ago.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pd9sY0Tjg

 You are right - this is a useful looking keenly priced base.
>>>
>>> I actually did this on my milling machine, as a test.
>>> Results were not perfect, but showed the technology was at
>>> least potentially workable.  I have since redone the thing
>>> to use thicker solder wire, I bet it would work even better,
>>> but have not set it up to try again.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> 
>>> -- One dashboard for servers and applications across
>>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with
>>> 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give
>>> you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction
>>> tracing using APM Insight.
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>>> ___
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>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
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>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>>
>> --
>>  One dashboard for servers and applications across
>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with
>> 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you
>> Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing
>> using APM Insight.
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>> ___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gregg Eshelman]

Here's a machine built to automate soldering of 0.1" pin headers.

http://hackaday.com/2015/05/05/open-source-diy-soldering-robot/

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 09 May 2015 05:43:10 Peter Homann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general purpose
> robot, mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine has a
> soldering head on it.
> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55
>
> I year or so ago I converted it to run under Mach3 as the original
> interface was such a pain, as it only had a teach mode. The conversion
> is detailed here.
> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>55:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3&catid=34:cnc-projects&
>Itemid=55
> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>65:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper-par
>t-2&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=
>66:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper-par
>t-3&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter

Peter, thanks for sharing. I'd imagine that once programmed, that thing 
can do the board pictured in perhaps 10 minutes a board. A bit too much 
solder according to mill specs, but still Sweet!  But why Mach3?

> On 9/05/2015 1:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 05/08/2015 11:16 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> >> On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:
> >>> Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot,
> >>> this could be a good XY base for that.
> >>
> >> I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email from this
> >> group. a couple of days ago.
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pd9sY0Tjg
> >>
> >> You are right - this is a useful looking keenly priced base.
> >
> > I actually did this on my milling machine, as a test.
> > Results were not perfect, but showed the technology was at
> > least potentially workable.  I have since redone the thing
> > to use thicker solder wire, I bet it would work even better,
> > but have not set it up to try again.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > 
> >-- One dashboard for servers and applications across
> > Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with
> > 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give
> > you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction
> > tracing using APM Insight.
> > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Kirk Wallace]

On 05/09/2015 02:43 AM, Peter Homann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general purpose robot,
> mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine has a soldering head on it.
> http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55


Thank you for sharing your work. Having a working system to reference is 
a big help.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Peter Homann]

Hi,

This is the soldering robot I have. It is based on a general purpose robot, 
mainly used for applying glues, pastes etc. Mine has a soldering head on it.
http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53:selective-soldering-machine-mach3-&catid=35:smt&Itemid=55

I year or so ago I converted it to run under Mach3 as the original interface 
was such a pain, as it only had a teach mode. The conversion is detailed here.
http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=65:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper-part-2&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55
http://homanndesigns.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66:selective-soldering-robot-conversion-to-mach3-and-smooth-stepper-part-3&catid=34:cnc-projects&Itemid=55

Cheers,

Peter

On 9/05/2015 1:18 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 05/08/2015 11:16 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
>> On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:
>>
>>> Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot,
>>> this could be a good XY base for that.
>>>
>> I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email from this group. a 
>> couple of days ago.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pd9sY0Tjg
>>
>> You are right - this is a useful looking keenly priced base.
>>
>>
> I actually did this on my milling machine, as a test.
> Results were not perfect, but showed the technology was at
> least potentially workable.  I have since redone the thing
> to use thicker solder wire, I bet it would work even better,
> but have not set it up to try again.
>
> Jon
>
> --
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Jon Elson]

On 05/08/2015 11:16 AM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:
>
>> Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot,
>> this could be a good XY base for that.
>>
> I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email from this group. a 
> couple of days ago.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pd9sY0Tjg
>
> You are right - this is a useful looking keenly priced base.
>
>
I actually did this on my milling machine, as a test.  
Results were not perfect, but showed the technology was at 
least potentially workable.  I have since redone the thing 
to use thicker solder wire, I bet it would work even better, 
but have not set it up to try again.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Soldering machine: wasCute little machine

[Marcus Bowman]

On 8 May 2015, at 16:46, Jon Elson wrote:

> On 05/08/2015 04:29 AM, Mark Wendt wrote:
>> I bought a little transistor/cap tester kit from Banggood a while back, and
>> since I'm such a great customer, they favor my inbox with an advertising
>> email occasionally.  This showed up in one of their ads this morning:
>> 
>> www.banggood.com/1500mW-Desktop-DIY-Laser-Engraver-Engraving-Machine-Picture-CNC-Printer-p-974159.html
>> 
>> For a little over $300, a spare computer, and some kind of base to attach
>> whatever you want to engrave, it almost sounds like a deal.
>> 
>> 
> Not bad!  I have some ideas for making a soldering robot, 
> this could be a good XY base for that.
> 
I saw this as a result of a link in an earlier email from this group. a couple 
of days ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9pd9sY0Tjg

You are right - this is a useful looking keenly priced base. 

Marcus

> Thanks,
> 
> Jon
> 
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