Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Hola Ana, la traducción alemana del „Laberinto de la soledad“ (1950) de Octavio Paz se publicó 1969, poco después de la matanza en la Plaza de Tlatelolco. Paz añadió un capituló que después apareció en el libro „Postdata“, editado por siglo XXI. Es titulado „Olimpiada y Tlatelolco“. El 2 de octubre de 1968 entre 50 y 300 estudiantes fueron fusilados por el ejercito mejicano en esta plaza central de la ciudad. Paz habla de la intra-historia (so se como es la expresión en el texto español) entre la matanza de 1968 y otras actas de violencia en Mexico, especialmente la caída de reino de las Aztecas. No estoy convencido del simbolismo de Paz, pero creo que sociedades o culturas tienen una imaginario cultural especifica de la violencia, es como un espectro, un fantasma que vive en el sueños y se actualize en situaciones de crisis. El fantasma no es algo en el más allá, es parte de la historia. Pero tiene la forma del trauma. Se repite pero no se cambie si no se encuentre una forma de expresarlo públicamente y de actualizarlo en formas que son simbólicas y únicas al mismo tiempo. Es arte y es el jurídico que participan es este. La cultura de la impunidad que reina en Mexico como en muchas otras sociedades es un elemento importantísimo. Impide el trabajo elaborativo social (Durcharbeiten, working-through) del trauma. Y ademas hace que una sociedad cree mas en la violencia que en la negociación y el acuerdo como forma de reglar conflictos. Lo importante del trabajo elaborativo quizá es menos el proceso memorativo que la dramatization que permite situar las fantasmas flotantes. 43 vidas muertos, 43 vidas singulares. 43 asesinatos más crueles, más violentas contra la singularidad de cada uno. Familias y amigos heridos por esta violencia. Antigone sepulta a Polinices diciendo que su vida singular vale más que la ley y la violencia. Reinhold Am 08.11.2014 um 18:56 schrieb Ana Valdés agora...@gmail.com: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Octavio Paz, Nobelprize in literature from Mexico, was Mexico's ambassador in India several years and come very near Hinduism and Buddhism. He wrote some superb books discussing the differences between Christianity and the Oriental philosophies from the Eastern parts of the world. He said our Christ, the figure of a man being tortured, tense between spikes and the arms of the cross, is a violent archetypical image of our civilization, based in rape, torture and conquest. In the Eastern the image of God is a wheel, no beginning, no end, a circle, Nirvana. Today with the sad confirmation about the Mexican students burned to death and ash becoming ashes the circle ends, again, but not in a Nirvana but in the paroxism of mothers and fathers crying their anguish and their dispair. I was this morning in the funeral of a dear friend, his wife was in jail with me, he was in another jail. Among the mourners was several jail comrades, male comrades to him, mine female friends. Among my female jail comrades were many raped and heavily tortured they went today straight happy to be among the survivors I was one of the youngest and was saved from heavy torture and from rape the women I met today are over seventy years old they were not old ladies asking for permission to live they were still the strong and brave women I met in jail and it's to their solidarity and warmth I own my life today Ana On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Johannes Birringer johannes.birrin...@brunel.ac.uk wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Several participants have now raised the idea of terror (event, representation, or the 'graphe,' the visual scaffold that Jon had implied) as cliché, and as kitsch. Alan however has always insisted here that the abject (experience and image) invades and destroys, it causes extreme anguish. And we have not fully addressed it yet – such dissolution, falling apart, within and among the abject, that self and other are uncomfortably bound, felt as such, repulsive (Alan) –- when we seek recourse to the narratives and theories and philosophies. (Though the notion of the abject comes, as well, via Kristeva and an anthropological analysis of dirt, impurity, and the repulsed). A performance, however (and thanks Erik for sharing your cryptic epilogue of Woman/Raven, to 'Mother Courage'), when/where? how would it respond? for whom? And relate to what Alicia names the orientalized Debord, an other spectacle? Plenty of dust from the actions of the porn erotic of the masculinity of a populist maleness, vital, organized and lethal, like gangs like mass graves, symmetric rituals? (I extrapolate from Alicia, and her brief account of a more surreal sequence even, one disappearance to another finding - estudientes/federales/narcotraficantes: en México, 43 estudiantes desaparecen
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Wonderful text, Reinhold, and I am very pleased and grateful to all working hard to work in several languages. But I think it's also important to choose a lingua franca who can make me understand what Olga, born in Ucrania and Fereshed born in Iran, want tell us. If I can ask all of you to duplicate the messages in English and in Spanish. Cheers Ana On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Reinhold Görling goerl...@phil.hhu.de wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Hola Ana, la traducción alemana del „Laberinto de la soledad“ (1950) de Octavio Paz se publicó 1969, poco después de la matanza en la Plaza de Tlatelolco. Paz añadió un capituló que después apareció en el libro „Postdata“, editado por siglo XXI. Es titulado „Olimpiada y Tlatelolco“. El 2 de octubre de 1968 entre 50 y 300 estudiantes fueron fusilados por el ejercito mejicano en esta plaza central de la ciudad. Paz habla de la intra-historia (so se como es la expresión en el texto español) entre la matanza de 1968 y otras actas de violencia en Mexico, especialmente la caída de reino de las Aztecas. No estoy convencido del simbolismo de Paz, pero creo que sociedades o culturas tienen una imaginario cultural especifica de la violencia, es como un espectro, un fantasma que vive en el sueños y se actualize en situaciones de crisis. El fantasma no es algo en el más allá, es parte de la historia. Pero tiene la forma del trauma. Se repite pero no se cambie si no se encuentre una forma de expresarlo públicamente y de actualizarlo en formas que son simbólicas y únicas al mismo tiempo. Es arte y es el jurídico que participan es este. La cultura de la impunidad que reina en Mexico como en muchas otras sociedades es un elemento importantísimo. Impide el trabajo elaborativo social (Durcharbeiten, working-through) del trauma. Y ademas hace que una sociedad cree mas en la violencia que en la negociación y el acuerdo como forma de reglar conflictos. Lo importante del trabajo elaborativo quizá es menos el proceso memorativo que la dramatization que permite situar las fantasmas flotantes. 43 vidas muertos, 43 vidas singulares. 43 asesinatos más crueles, más violentas contra la singularidad de cada uno. Familias y amigos heridos por esta violencia. Antigone sepulta a Polinices diciendo que su vida singular vale más que la ley y la violencia. Reinhold Am 08.11.2014 um 18:56 schrieb Ana Valdés agora...@gmail.com: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Octavio Paz, Nobelprize in literature from Mexico, was Mexico's ambassador in India several years and come very near Hinduism and Buddhism. He wrote some superb books discussing the differences between Christianity and the Oriental philosophies from the Eastern parts of the world. He said our Christ, the figure of a man being tortured, tense between spikes and the arms of the cross, is a violent archetypical image of our civilization, based in rape, torture and conquest. In the Eastern the image of God is a wheel, no beginning, no end, a circle, Nirvana. Today with the sad confirmation about the Mexican students burned to death and ash becoming ashes the circle ends, again, but not in a Nirvana but in the paroxism of mothers and fathers crying their anguish and their dispair. I was this morning in the funeral of a dear friend, his wife was in jail with me, he was in another jail. Among the mourners was several jail comrades, male comrades to him, mine female friends. Among my female jail comrades were many raped and heavily tortured they went today straight happy to be among the survivors I was one of the youngest and was saved from heavy torture and from rape the women I met today are over seventy years old they were not old ladies asking for permission to live they were still the strong and brave women I met in jail and it's to their solidarity and warmth I own my life today Ana On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Johannes Birringer johannes.birrin...@brunel.ac.uk wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Several participants have now raised the idea of terror (event, representation, or the 'graphe,' the visual scaffold that Jon had implied) as cliché, and as kitsch. Alan however has always insisted here that the abject (experience and image) invades and destroys, it causes extreme anguish. And we have not fully addressed it yet – such dissolution, falling apart, within and among the abject, that self and other are uncomfortably bound, felt as such, repulsive (Alan) –- when we seek recourse to the narratives and theories and philosophies. (Though the notion of the abject comes, as well, via Kristeva and an anthropological analysis of dirt, impurity, and the repulsed). A performance, however (and thanks Erik for sharing your cryptic epilogue of Woman/Raven, to 'Mother Courage'),
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Thanks Ana. Here comes a version in English The German translation of Octavio Paz most read book „The labyrinth of solitude“ (1950) was published 1969 - only a short time after the massacre on the Plaza del Tletelolco in Mexico City. Paz added a chapter that afterwards was also published in his book „Postdata“. The chapter has the title „Olimpiada y Tlatelolco“. October 2 1968 between 50 and 300 students were killed by the Mexican army on the central place of the city. Paz speaks of a intra-history between the massacre of 1968 and other acts of violence in Mexico, tracing this back to the fall of the rein of the Aztecs. I’m not convinced of the symbolism of Paz’ concept but I agree that each society or culture has its own imagination, its own historically coined nightmare of violence, it is like a spectre, a phantasm that lives in the dreams and actualizes in times of crises. A phantasm is anything beyond, it is part of history. But in form of trauma. It repeats itself but does not change and it does not get a form of public expression or of actualization which would be symbolic and unique at the same time. Art and the juridical take part in this kind of actualization. The culture of impunity that governs Mexico and many other countries is a crucial element. It forecloses the working-through of traumatic experiences on the individual as well as on the collective level. Furthermore it makes a society believe in violence as means to solve conflicts and not in negotiation and agreements. The important moment of working-through perhaps is less the process of recollection itself than a certain dramatization that allows to find a place for the floating phantasms. 43 murdered lifes, 43 singular lifes. 43 most cruel assassinations, violence against the singularity of each of them. Families and friends injured by this. Antigone buries Polyneices saying that his life was unique (and therefore more important than the law). Reinhold Am 09.11.2014 um 15:57 schrieb Ana Valdés agora...@gmail.com: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Wonderful text, Reinhold, and I am very pleased and grateful to all working hard to work in several languages. But I think it's also important to choose a lingua franca who can make me understand what Olga, born in Ucrania and Fereshed born in Iran, want tell us. If I can ask all of you to duplicate the messages in English and in Spanish. Cheers Ana On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Reinhold Görling goerl...@phil.hhu.de wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Hola Ana, la traducción alemana del „Laberinto de la soledad“ (1950) de Octavio Paz se publicó 1969, poco después de la matanza en la Plaza de Tlatelolco. Paz añadió un capituló que después apareció en el libro „Postdata“, editado por siglo XXI. Es titulado „Olimpiada y Tlatelolco“. El 2 de octubre de 1968 entre 50 y 300 estudiantes fueron fusilados por el ejercito mejicano en esta plaza central de la ciudad. Paz habla de la intra-historia (so se como es la expresión en el texto español) entre la matanza de 1968 y otras actas de violencia en Mexico, especialmente la caída de reino de las Aztecas. No estoy convencido del simbolismo de Paz, pero creo que sociedades o culturas tienen una imaginario cultural especifica de la violencia, es como un espectro, un fantasma que vive en el sueños y se actualize en situaciones de crisis. El fantasma no es algo en el más allá, es parte de la historia. Pero tiene la forma del trauma. Se repite pero no se cambie si no se encuentre una forma de expresarlo públicamente y de actualizarlo en formas que son simbólicas y únicas al mismo tiempo. Es arte y es el jurídico que participan es este. La cultura de la impunidad que reina en Mexico como en muchas otras sociedades es un elemento importantísimo. Impide el trabajo elaborativo social (Durcharbeiten, working-through) del trauma. Y ademas hace que una sociedad cree mas en la violencia que en la negociación y el acuerdo como forma de reglar conflictos. Lo importante del trabajo elaborativo quizá es menos el proceso memorativo que la dramatization que permite situar las fantasmas flotantes. 43 vidas muertos, 43 vidas singulares. 43 asesinatos más crueles, más violentas contra la singularidad de cada uno. Familias y amigos heridos por esta violencia. Antigone sepulta a Polinices diciendo que su vida singular vale más que la ley y la violencia. Reinhold Am 08.11.2014 um 18:56 schrieb Ana Valdés agora...@gmail.com: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Octavio Paz, Nobelprize in literature from Mexico, was Mexico's ambassador in India several years and come very near Hinduism and Buddhism. He wrote some superb books discussing the differences between Christianity and the Oriental philosophies from the Eastern parts of the
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- so much now has been brought to the round, and thanks to all those who wrote on the weekend, after having been busy at some points during the week or traveling (like Pia, Olga, and Heiner); my not so very good idea to slow down was actually a personal reflection, I was admitting aloud that sometimes in such online discussions the beautiful asynchronicity of the writings - as we try to follow, and respond, or elaborate and push forward our our train of thought, as well as our reaction to events that happen, interrupt us, still us, move us – makes me lose the thread, your thread, for in-depth response I crave to give, to everyone here. I went to a networked bodies (digital performance) event earlier today (where I saw strange visions of future bodies) and now will read all the letters of all week again tonight. back tomorrow, Johannes ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- i have been following with great curiosity and emotion, but have not yet felt that i had anything to add. i live in a very densely populated area (Brooklyn NY) and while I love the vibrancy of the street life, i can also see it being snuffed out, extinguished before my eyes, as white (forgive me, i fall under that general descriptor) young (me no longer) yuppies with affluence and young children start to flood the area, driving out the middle class people of color who have lived here for many decades. Within one year the multi-generational, multi-ethnic building i live in has become increasingly monotone and youthful. It is a form of violence, and sometimes it kicks me in the gut with the same sharpness as learning, shortly after the Boko Haram abductions of the schoolchildren, of young girls being coerced into being suicide bombers. The combination of gender violence and ethnic violence, compounded by the abuse of children, is particularly horrifying... not sure what its' worth to point all this out. How to stay sensitive to one's own and others' suffering without becoming paralyzed... On 11/9/14 3:50 PM, Johannes Birringer wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- so much now has been brought to the round, and thanks to all those who wrote on the weekend, after having been busy at some points during the week or traveling (like Pia, Olga, and Heiner); my not so very good idea to slow down was actually a personal reflection, I was admitting aloud that sometimes in such online discussions the beautiful asynchronicity of the writings - as we try to follow, and respond, or elaborate and push forward our our train of thought, as well as our reaction to events that happen, interrupt us, still us, move us – makes me lose the thread, your thread, for in-depth response I crave to give, to everyone here. I went to a networked bodies (digital performance) event earlier today (where I saw strange visions of future bodies) and now will read all the letters of all week again tonight. back tomorrow, Johannes ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Thanks for a fascinating and moving discussion. I just wanted to say that I have been following this more closely than any other empyre discussion for years. All of these mirrors on our world are overpowering. The atavistic barbarity of ISIS, the immolation of student protesters in Mexico, kids nightly shooting each other in Chicago, for nothing. It goes on and never stops, this infliction of power on oppressed bodies. While we can theoretically abstract the medial manipulation of acts of terror like mass disappearances, beheadings, crucifixions, and to be honest drone bombings as well, they overpower emotionally by design. They counfound logic and deny personhood. They strip hope from the bones. I am left only admiring the courage and hope and solidarity that Ana and others have described in the midst of such unspeakable horror. ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Several participants have now raised the idea of terror (event, representation, or the 'graphe,' the visual scaffold that Jon had implied) as cliché, and as kitsch. Alan however has always insisted here that the abject (experience and image) invades and destroys, it causes extreme anguish. And we have not fully addressed it yet – such dissolution, falling apart, within and among the abject, that self and other are uncomfortably bound, felt as such, repulsive (Alan) –- when we seek recourse to the narratives and theories and philosophies. (Though the notion of the abject comes, as well, via Kristeva and an anthropological analysis of dirt, impurity, and the repulsed). A performance, however (and thanks Erik for sharing your cryptic epilogue of Woman/Raven, to 'Mother Courage'), when/where? how would it respond? for whom? And relate to what Alicia names the orientalized Debord, an other spectacle? Plenty of dust from the actions of the porn erotic of the masculinity of a populist maleness, vital, organized and lethal, like gangs like mass graves, symmetric rituals? (I extrapolate from Alicia, and her brief account of a more surreal sequence even, one disappearance to another finding - estudientes/federales/narcotraficantes: en México, 43 estudiantes desaparecen como en un pase de magia y se descubre otra fosa común con cadáveres NN. Jon -- your question is about performance? To ask Reinhold’s question differently: How to navigate such genealogical strata while making performances that cite and grapple with violence and terror and graphe? Is that not somehow the issue that Olga tried to broach, using approximate but alienated media strategies to re-site the evidences (say, combatant confessions in a night club called Death Cub)? And how does verbatim theatre grapple? is there any grappling that could answer Alan's statement of dissolution? regards Johannes Birringer [Jon schreibt] From hashassins and anarchist bombings to drone strikes and YouTube beheadings, modern terror develops within a global network of increasing density and resonance. Terror one sees “over there” suddenly is here, collapsing space and time and with them one’s points of reference.And if clichés, images, ghosts preceded the real - what violence would there be in that? [Erik schreibt] excellent. in the perpetrator, victim, witness triad - the witness is shocked/severed out of the equation, specifically in order to collapse imaginative and expressive space for the victim. the witness still exists, but to demonstrate estrangement. the perpetrators are fine because they have space behind them, up in the large house they've stolen. [Ana schreibt] Violence is a key ingredient of human storytelling: from our first oral tales, violent acts have heightened audience attention and underlined the dangers of our world. What happens to a child who goes off alone? She is beset by ogres! Djinn! Child-eating witches! As different story traditions developed, most were rich in violence, which was often focused around a single enemy. This enemy could be battled (and tricked or beaten), offering the audience a psychological release. ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- [en español] Varios participantes han planteado esta idea de terror (caso, la representación o el 'graphe,' el andamio visual que Jon había dado a entender) como cliché, y como kitsch. Alan, sin embargo, siempre ha insistido en que aquí lo abyecto (experiencia e imagen) invade y destruye, provoca angustia extrema. Y no hemos abordado plenamente todavía - tal disolución, cayendo a pedazos, dentro y entre lo abyecto, que yo y el otro son incómodamente límite, sentía como tal, repulsiva (Alan) - cuando buscamos el recurso a las narraciones y teorías y filosofías. (Aunque la noción de lo abyecto viene, así, a través de Kristeva y un análisis antropológico de la suciedad, la impureza, y la rechazaron). Un performance (espectáculo), sin embargo (y gracias a Erik por compartir su epílogo críptico de Mujer / Raven, a 'Madre Coraje'), cuando / donde? ¿cómo podría responder? ¿para quién? Y se relacionan con lo nombres de Alicia el orientalizada Debord, otro espectáculo? Un montón de polvo de las acciones de la erótica porno de la masculinidad de una masculinidad populista, vital, organizada y letal, como las pandillas, como las fosas comunes, rituales simétricas? (quiero extrapolar de Alicia, y su breve relato de una secuencia más surrealista incluso, una desaparición de otro hallazgo - estudientes / Federales / narcotraficantes: en México, 43 Estudiantes desaparecen Como miembro En un PASE de magia y sí Descubre Otra Fosa Común Con Cadáveres NN. Jon - su pregunta es sobre la posibilidad de performance? Para hacer la pregunta de Reinhold en una manera diferente: Cómo navegar tales estratos genealógica al tiempo que las actuaciones que se citan y lidian con la violencia y el terror y graphe? ¿No es eso de alguna manera el tema que Olga trató de abordar, el uso de estrategias de medios de comunicación aproximados, alienados , pero para volver a sitio de las evidencias (digamos, confesiones combatientes en un club nocturno llamado Death Cub)? ¿Y cómo lidiar teatro textual? ¿hay alguna de ataque que podrían responder a la declaración de disolución de Alan? con saludos Johannes [Jon escribe] De hashassins y atentados anarquistas a ataques con drones y decapitaciones de YouTube, el terror moderno se desarrolla dentro de una red global de aumento de la densidad y la resonancia. El terror se ve más allá de repente está aquí, colapsando el espacio y el tiempo y con ellos uno de los puntos de referencia . Y si clichés, imágenes, fantasmas precedieron a la verdadera - lo que la violencia podría haber en eso? [Erik escribe] excelente. en el agresor, víctima, testigo tríada - el testigo está conmocionado / cortada fuera de la ecuación, específicamente con el fin de colapsar el espacio imaginativo y expresivo para la víctima. todavía existe el testigo, pero para demostrar extrañamiento. los autores están muy bien porque tienen el espacio detrás de ellos, en la gran casa que han robado. [Ana escribe] La violencia es un ingrediente clave de la narración humana: desde nuestros primeros cuentos orales, los actos violentos han aumentado la atención de la audiencia y subrayó los peligros de nuestro mundo ¿Qué le pasa a un niño que va. fuera solo? Ella se ve acosada por los ogros! Djinn! Niños que comen las brujas! Como desarrollan diferentes tradiciones de la historia, la mayoría eran ricos en la violencia, que a menudo se centra en torno a un solo enemigo. Este enemigo podría ser luchó (y engañado o golpeado), ofreciendo al público un comunicado psicológica. +++ ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- On Sat, 8 Nov 2014, Johannes Birringer wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- is there any grappling that could answer Alan's statement of dissolution? -- And I want to answer this in so many ways; the statement was not a question although Johannes' question embodying my statement, is. There are visceral reactions to extreme pain, abject dissolution of the body; these seem fundamental to many animal species, not just humans. To speak of an answer is to speak of a question, is to speak, is to use language, to have recourse to language. And in these situations, none of this speaking, from 'the first blow,' may be possible. Extreme pain, without medical intervention - the cries and screams of the wounded (discussed earlier in empyre) - we are always already animal, we murder; there are other species who murder. Speech disappears, is impossible. (And as witness, so many Vets I know are silent about their experience.) The rest is the Other (of culture, cultural work, signifiers) which can only appear later, as an afterthought/afterbirth/afterdeath; we are all present, contribute to this. We all play and write in the theater of pain; years ago, when I was beaten up badly, it was staged - on the street, under an arch that might as well have been a proscenium. I think of anguish as straddling, come-out or coming-forth from silence, from those who bear witness, are affected, perhaps on the edge of death. ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space--Los 43 estudiantes mexicanos aparecieron (aparecieron?)ayer como polvo adentro de bolsas, casi no quedan huesos para examinar. Perdón, pero hoy estoy muy conmovida para cualquier análisis. Sin embargo la sola enunciación de esto contiene su propia metáfora. El 08/11/2014 15:14, Johannes Birringer johannes.birrin...@brunel.ac.uk escribió: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Several participants have now raised the idea of terror (event, representation, or the 'graphe,' the visual scaffold that Jon had implied) as cliché, and as kitsch. Alan however has always insisted here that the abject (experience and image) invades and destroys, it causes extreme anguish. And we have not fully addressed it yet – such dissolution, falling apart, within and among the abject, that self and other are uncomfortably bound, felt as such, repulsive (Alan) –- when we seek recourse to the narratives and theories and philosophies. (Though the notion of the abject comes, as well, via Kristeva and an anthropological analysis of dirt, impurity, and the repulsed). A performance, however (and thanks Erik for sharing your cryptic epilogue of Woman/Raven, to 'Mother Courage'), when/where? how would it respond? for whom? And relate to what Alicia names the orientalized Debord, an other spectacle? Plenty of dust from the actions of the porn erotic of the masculinity of a populist maleness, vital, organized and lethal, like gangs like mass graves, symmetric rituals? (I extrapolate from Alicia, and her brief account of a more surreal sequence even, one disappearance to another finding - estudientes/federales/narcotraficantes: en México, 43 estudiantes desaparecen como en un pase de magia y se descubre otra fosa común con cadáveres NN. Jon -- your question is about performance? To ask Reinhold’s question differently: How to navigate such genealogical strata while making performances that cite and grapple with violence and terror and graphe? Is that not somehow the issue that Olga tried to broach, using approximate but alienated media strategies to re-site the evidences (say, combatant confessions in a night club called Death Cub)? And how does verbatim theatre grapple? is there any grappling that could answer Alan's statement of dissolution? regards Johannes Birringer [Jon schreibt] From hashassins and anarchist bombings to drone strikes and YouTube beheadings, modern terror develops within a global network of increasing density and resonance. Terror one sees “over there” suddenly is here, collapsing space and time and with them one’s points of reference.And if clichés, images, ghosts preceded the real - what violence would there be in that? [Erik schreibt] excellent. in the perpetrator, victim, witness triad - the witness is shocked/severed out of the equation, specifically in order to collapse imaginative and expressive space for the victim. the witness still exists, but to demonstrate estrangement. the perpetrators are fine because they have space behind them, up in the large house they've stolen. [Ana schreibt] Violence is a key ingredient of human storytelling: from our first oral tales, violent acts have heightened audience attention and underlined the dangers of our world. What happens to a child who goes off alone? She is beset by ogres! Djinn! Child-eating witches! As different story traditions developed, most were rich in violence, which was often focused around a single enemy. This enemy could be battled (and tricked or beaten), offering the audience a psychological release. ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Octavio Paz, Nobelprize in literature from Mexico, was Mexico's ambassador in India several years and come very near Hinduism and Buddhism. He wrote some superb books discussing the differences between Christianity and the Oriental philosophies from the Eastern parts of the world. He said our Christ, the figure of a man being tortured, tense between spikes and the arms of the cross, is a violent archetypical image of our civilization, based in rape, torture and conquest. In the Eastern the image of God is a wheel, no beginning, no end, a circle, Nirvana. Today with the sad confirmation about the Mexican students burned to death and ash becoming ashes the circle ends, again, but not in a Nirvana but in the paroxism of mothers and fathers crying their anguish and their dispair. I was this morning in the funeral of a dear friend, his wife was in jail with me, he was in another jail. Among the mourners was several jail comrades, male comrades to him, mine female friends. Among my female jail comrades were many raped and heavily tortured they went today straight happy to be among the survivors I was one of the youngest and was saved from heavy torture and from rape the women I met today are over seventy years old they were not old ladies asking for permission to live they were still the strong and brave women I met in jail and it's to their solidarity and warmth I own my life today Ana On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Johannes Birringer johannes.birrin...@brunel.ac.uk wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Several participants have now raised the idea of terror (event, representation, or the 'graphe,' the visual scaffold that Jon had implied) as cliché, and as kitsch. Alan however has always insisted here that the abject (experience and image) invades and destroys, it causes extreme anguish. And we have not fully addressed it yet – such dissolution, falling apart, within and among the abject, that self and other are uncomfortably bound, felt as such, repulsive (Alan) –- when we seek recourse to the narratives and theories and philosophies. (Though the notion of the abject comes, as well, via Kristeva and an anthropological analysis of dirt, impurity, and the repulsed). A performance, however (and thanks Erik for sharing your cryptic epilogue of Woman/Raven, to 'Mother Courage'), when/where? how would it respond? for whom? And relate to what Alicia names the orientalized Debord, an other spectacle? Plenty of dust from the actions of the porn erotic of the masculinity of a populist maleness, vital, organized and lethal, like gangs like mass graves, symmetric rituals? (I extrapolate from Alicia, and her brief account of a more surreal sequence even, one disappearance to another finding - estudientes/federales/narcotraficantes: en México, 43 estudiantes desaparecen como en un pase de magia y se descubre otra fosa común con cadáveres NN. Jon -- your question is about performance? To ask Reinhold’s question differently: How to navigate such genealogical strata while making performances that cite and grapple with violence and terror and graphe? Is that not somehow the issue that Olga tried to broach, using approximate but alienated media strategies to re-site the evidences (say, combatant confessions in a night club called Death Cub)? And how does verbatim theatre grapple? is there any grappling that could answer Alan's statement of dissolution? regards Johannes Birringer [Jon schreibt] From hashassins and anarchist bombings to drone strikes and YouTube beheadings, modern terror develops within a global network of increasing density and resonance. Terror one sees “over there” suddenly is here, collapsing space and time and with them one’s points of reference.And if clichés, images, ghosts preceded the real - what violence would there be in that? [Erik schreibt] excellent. in the perpetrator, victim, witness triad - the witness is shocked/severed out of the equation, specifically in order to collapse imaginative and expressive space for the victim. the witness still exists, but to demonstrate estrangement. the perpetrators are fine because they have space behind them, up in the large house they've stolen. [Ana schreibt] Violence is a key ingredient of human storytelling: from our first oral tales, violent acts have heightened audience attention and underlined the dangers of our world. What happens to a child who goes off alone? She is beset by ogres! Djinn! Child-eating witches! As different story traditions developed, most were rich in violence, which was often focused around a single enemy. This enemy could be battled (and tricked or beaten), offering the audience a psychological release. ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Pardón, Alicia, I did not know that this news had broken, I am very dismayed to hear. (Pardón, Alicia, yo no sabía que esta noticia se había roto, estoy muy consternado y silenciado.) [Alicia schreibt] Los 43 estudiantes mexicanos aparecieron (aparecieron?)ayer como polvo adentro de bolsas, casi no quedan huesos para examinar. Perd√≥n, pero hoy estoy muy conmovida para cualquier an√°lisis. Sin embargo la sola enunciaci√≥n de esto contiene su propia met√°fora. [translated] The 43 Mexican students appeared (appeared?) yesterday as dust bags inside, there are almost no bones to examine. Forgive, but I am very touched, too touched to any analysis today. But the mere utterance of it contains its own metaphor. ps. The new york times reports the now assumed killings of the young Mexican student teachers (normalistas) by drug gangs here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/08/world/americas/drug-gang-killed-students-mexico-law-official-says.html?ref=world ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] concerning violence, and more Antigone's bones
--empyre- soft-skinned space--Hi, to you all. This is my first post, having just dipped my toe on the middle of an discission. I would like to approach Alan's idea of anguish-- that language creates anguish, taking us away from a state of total dissolution, thereby silence-- from the point of view of violence. Not the intense subjectivity of pain, leading to the peripheries of death and unconsciousness; but the subjectivity of violence, equally intense, leading to the same peripheries from the opposite angle, a position of power. There are two kinds of violence, it seems to me. One may be called instinctive, anger, jealousy, fear, etc. The other is rational, war, state sanctioned punishment, hazing or other rituals of initiation, etc. The first kind of violence is always punished. Killing out of jealousy or anger is not a defense. On the other hand, rational violence is never punished. Rather, it is reinforced, perpetuated through the rational attached to it. The first kind of violence is consumed in its acting. Anger (hate, etc.) basically ends with the murder. In the second, this does not occur. The rational-- a piece of language, a myth-- survives the act, and, therefore, can perpetuate its violence. Once can kill in the name of security or justice or tradition or self-defense or freedom or invisible hand of free markets, you name it, over and over again. I consider these riffs of language the corresponding opposites of Alan's anguish, a condition seen from the subjectivities of power of victim/subject. The God, Abraham, Isaac story about the sacrifice of Isaac in the Bible embodies the exquisite ambiguity, double bind of this condition. In his subjectivity, Abraham is asked to become the executioner of one of these riffs (God's words, his injunction) while he suffers the anguish of losing his son. Isaac is totally silent, all the way, very close to an animal state. In fact, at the end he becomes an animal in the shape of an ewe. God is the creator of language, main actor in his own myth. Ciao, Murat On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Johannes Birringer johannes.birrin...@brunel.ac.uk wrote: --empyre- soft-skinned space-- Pardón, Alicia, I did not know that this news had broken, I am very dismayed to hear. (Pardón, Alicia, yo no sabía que esta noticia se había roto, estoy muy consternado y silenciado.) [Alicia schreibt] Los 43 estudiantes mexicanos aparecieron (aparecieron?)ayer como polvo adentro de bolsas, casi no quedan huesos para examinar. Perd√≥n, pero hoy estoy muy conmovida para cualquier an√°lisis. Sin embargo la sola enunciaci√≥n de esto contiene su propia met√°fora. [translated] The 43 Mexican students appeared (appeared?) yesterday as dust bags inside, there are almost no bones to examine. Forgive, but I am very touched, too touched to any analysis today. But the mere utterance of it contains its own metaphor. ps. The new york times reports the now assumed killings of the young Mexican student teachers (normalistas) by drug gangs here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/08/world/americas/drug-gang-killed-students-mexico-law-official-says.html?ref=world ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
