[EVDL] U.S. Prez (pro-tem), EVs, & the electricity they use

[brucedp5 via EV]

>Folks, keep this thread on topic and non-partisan, please.
Thanks.  David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA  EVDL Administrator<

*Reminder: Political discussions are OT on the evdl

The internet is of fire with any search using the U.S. Prez (pro-tem) name.

Much like when there is a hot topic or an automaker is doing a media blitz,
there are many items that come up that are EV related when I search with the
above name and either  electric vehicles  or  electric cars
(see below for a summary, you can explore them on your own off-line).

I found it interesting that those  two keyword searches  brought up those
items (below), but any search using  EV  or  plugin  have nil results. 

To me this means, there is a lot of mongering going on by EV-ignorant media
types. 
So, it will take some time for all of this to calm down.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.0catch.com}



-
President Trump election could prove troublesome for US carmakers 
PerformanceDrive
The election of Donald J. Trump as US president and leader of the free world
could ... remove federal support for the research and design of electric
vehicles. ... Trump has in the past criticised each of the big US-based car
manufacturers ...

Trump victory jolts automakers, lifts Caterpillar, railroads  Free Malaysia
Today
DETROIT: The election of Republican Donald Trump as U.S. president put new
pressure on ... Electric luxury car maker Tesla Motors 

Trump win boosts coal, hits renewable stocks  StreetInsider.com-30 minutes
ago
Still, Trump's victory drove down renewable energy stocks. ... Tesla
benefits from federal tax breaks for electric vehicles and selling credits
generated under a ...

Zero Motorcycles Made an Electric Bike with a 200-Mile Range  Inverse-2
hours ago
Zero Motorcycles announced on Tuesday a new lineup of electric vehicles with
more ... Elon Musk says he's not worried about the future of Tesla under
Trump.

Trump Could Spell Trouble for Tesla  Inverse-2 hours ago
For buyers of the Tesla Model 3, the credit decreases the price of the car
from $35,000 to ... Nothing in Trump's tax plan mentions incentives for
electric energy.

Donald Trump's sweep could be a big setback to Tesla and Elon Musk  Colorado
Springs Gazette-2 hours ago
Adoption of electric cars could also be affected by the expiration of tax
credits associated with the technology. Under the current rules, consumers
can claim up to ...

Trump Impact On Auto Industry: Not Good For Tesla  Seeking Alpha-2 hours ago
A Trump administration could move to abolish subsidies for electric cars and
loosen/abolish Federal fuel economy standards ...

America's Brief Role as a Climate Leader Is Probably Over  WIRED-2 hours ago
While America was watching Donald Trump sweep the polls, climate ... As is
the electric vehicle tax credit, which gives $7,500 relief to anyone buying
an EV.

Tesla and Elon Musk face big setback under Donald Trump  The Australian
Financial Review -4 hours ago
Adoption of electric cars like Teslas could be affected by the expiration of
tax credits associated with the technology. Supplied. by Brian Fung. The
Republican ...

How will Tesla perform in Mr. Trump's America?  Teslarati-5 hours ago
What will a Trump presidency mean to Elon Musk and Tesla Motors? ...
Incentives for electric vehicles and for building a national EV charging
infrastructure will ...

Tesla Might Suffer If Trump Weakens Fuel Economy Rules, Electric ... 
Forbes-7 hours ago
Tesla Motors might come under pressure during a Trump administration if fuel
economy rules and electric car subsidies are weakened, while traditional
U.S. ...

Automakers, dependent on Mexico, face a rougher road with Trump  Reuters-8
hours ago

Trump presidency threatens global automakers, and more headlines  New York
Daily News
Donald Trump's election raises a lot of questions for automakers in the U.S.
... What about the recently announced expansion of electric car charging
stations?

Trump victory jolts automakers, lifts Caterpillar, railroads  Free Malaysia
Today-17 minutes
DETROIT: The election of Republican Donald Trump as U.S. president put new
pressure on ... 

Zero Motorcycles Made an Electric Bike with a 200-Mile Range  Inverse-2
hours ago
 ... Elon Musk says he's not worried about the future of Tesla under Trump.

Trump Could Spell Trouble for Tesla  Inverse-2 hours ago
Trump has expressed a strong support for U.S. oil and coal industries, so
his administration coming out in favor of electric vehicles seems incredibly
unlikely.

Trump's Impact On Tech; GoPro's Drone Recall; Google Drone ...  Seeking
Alpha-2 hours
There's a number of sectors that could ultimately feel Trump's impact when
he takes ... Tesla, of course, is reliant on electric car sales and the
likely-soon-to-be ...

What Will Happen To Electric Car Sales In A Trump Led America?  Gas 2.0-2
hours ago
Is GM worried that people will buy fewer cars and trucks when Trump is in
office?  ...

Don't Give Up On The Planet  Gizmodo 

Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

And, in fact, he has said that he believes UV AV

Sent from AltaMail


 From: Jim Walls via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> To: "Rush Dougherty" 
<r...@ironandwood.org>,"Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's Date: 11/9/16, 3:43 PM

 
Not trying to agree or disagree, but remember that one of the biggest  
issues with the US economy is the regular moving of jobs off-shore.  A  
second is a substantial un-balance of trade.  Mr. Trump has somewhat  
regularly pushed that we need to get Americans working again.  If he is  
able to enact his item five, it will put a bunch of Americans to work in  
largely well paying jobs, and reduce oil imports which will have at least a  
little improvement in the balance of trade. 
   
 Although Rush Dougherty added the comment about no clean energy nor EVs,  
there is nothing in Trump's statement to that effect (as included in his  
message).  To assume things that are not there is speculation.  
   
 Also note that this discussion is really off-topic for the list... 
   
 Jim Walls 
   
   
   
  Original Message  
> From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 3:02 PM 
> To: "Bill Woodcock" <wo...@pch.net>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"  
<ev@lists.evdl.org> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's 
> 
> Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his  
first 100 
> days - 
> "FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion  
dollars' 
> worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil,  
natural gas 
> and clean coal." 
> 
> More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to it  
all over 
> again. 
> 
> Rush Dougherty 
> Tucson AZ 85719 
  
 
 
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[paul dove via EV]

Teslas aren't really that expensive. The park Audi's in the mall here and the 
cheapest one I have seen was 88,000 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 9, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> Peri and all,
> 
> 
> 
> Just think a little about the average mentality – America loves oil, it makes 
> their cars go for miles and miles and miles, and all it takes to fill up is a 
> stop at the local 711, where you can get a hot dog and a coke or coffee by 
> the way, or buy a lottery ticket (which you have 1 in a zillion chances to 
> win). The only real EV is the Tesla. Look at the Leaf – it has battery 
> problems and it takes hours to recharge the battery pack and you can only 
> recharge in a couple places what a pia. And the Tesla is very very expensive, 
> I’ll never be able to afford it, but I can get a beautiful gas car for only 
> $18,000 or maybe even $16,000 and the price of gas is going to go down since 
> they are going to be drilling for more of it, so it will be cheaper. Why 
> should I waste my time with electric cars?
> 
> 
> 
> And I really take issue with “industry has started to invest heavily in EV’s” 
> What are you referring to? All the parts except a few are just pulled from 
> other cars, they even make the EV in gas version, or the gas version in an 
> EV… And besides, there is a $7000 tax rebate on EV’s that is not being 
> collected by the government.  And what about the road tax, since EV’s don’t 
> buy gas, they don’t pay road tax… 
> 
> 
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> 
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
> 
> 
> From: Peri Hartman [mailto:pe...@kotatko.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 4:14 PM
> To: Rush Dougherty; 'Bill Woodcock'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
> 
> 
> 
> I'm concerned about that Trump statement, too. However, while he can use 
> executive order to change a lot of things, he has to abide by congress for 
> major changes. Plus the auto industry has started to invest heavily in EVs 
> and I don't think they are going to change course abruptly. They will likely 
> wait at least until the midterm elections to see which way congress goes. Am 
> I being too optimistic?
> 
> 
> 
> Peir
> 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> 
> From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> 
> To: "'Bill Woodcock'" <wo...@pch.net>; "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" 
> <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> 
> Cc: 
> 
> Sent: 09-Nov-16 3:01:20 PM
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
> 
> 
> 
> Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his first 
> 100
> 
> days -
> 
> "FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion 
> dollars'
> 
> worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, 
> natural gas
> 
> and clean coal."
> 
> 
> 
> More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to it all 
> over
> 
> again.
> 
> 
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> 
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock via EV
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 3:51 PM
> 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I seriously wonder if the people on this list. who voted for trump realize 
>> the
> 
>> mess that he is
> 
> going to put us in.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that not the null set, seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> -Bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> at
> 
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> 
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Folks, keep this thread on topic and non-partisan, please.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Impeachment: that would be a first.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc:
Sent: 09-Nov-16 8:49:47 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

“Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy night.” (Bette Davis, 
in "All about Eve")


MANY imponderables are at work here. The major actors are used to 
playing their parts according to their party's script. They don't have 
to think; just act.


When Bush took office in 2000, he could count on the Republicans in 
Congress to back him. Thus he was able to quickly gut the EV mandates 
PV/wind incentives, and environmental laws in general. That pretty much 
killed the nascent EV movement.


Trump may try to do it again; but he doesn't have the backing. He's ad 
libbing it. No telling what he'll do, or whether Congress will support 
or oppose him.


But I suspect the EV movement (and Tesla in particular) is heading for 
hard times. The big automakers will abandon EVs as fast as they did in 
2000 if they can change the mandates and regulations (and if Tesla 
weren't out there proving that EVs work after all).


I heard Ralph Nader's take on it. He thinks Trump is bound to do 
something stupid or illegal. Given the number of enemies he has (in 
both parties), he'll get impeached before he can do any serious damage.


-- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Robert Pike via EV]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoravkGb6Lg


On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Bill Woodcock via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

>
> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> wrote:
> > I seriously wonder if the people on this list… who voted for trump
> realize the mess that he is going to put us in.
>
> Is that not the null set, seriously?
>
> -Bill
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[David Nelson via EV]

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Peri and all,
>
>
>   And what about the road tax, since EV’s don’t buy gas, they don’t pay
> road tax…
>
>
Really? I pay $150/year for my 830lbs 3-wheeled single passenger Gizmo! My
per mile tax rate last year was $0.094/mi when on my 5600lbs full size
pickup it was $0.028/mi. Do you call that equitable? I sure don't.

Also, presuming that one votes entirely based on environmental policy is
quite narrow thinking and unrealistic. Why don't we quit the stereo-typing
and just talk the issues?

-- 
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328
http://www.levforum.com
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Hoegberg via EV]

> Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:22:48 -0800
> To: j...@k6ccc.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Jim Walls via EV  wrote:
>
>> Not trying to agree or disagree, but remember that one of the biggest
>> issues with the US economy is the regular moving of jobs off-shore. A
>> second is a substantial un-balance of trade. Mr. Trump has somewhat
>> regularly pushed that we need to get Americans working again. If he is
>> able to enact his item five, it will put a bunch of Americans to work in
>> largely well paying jobs, and reduce oil imports which will have at least a
>> little improvement in the balance of trade.
>
>
> That's a good argument, except that it completely ignores the large number
> of people employed in the U.S. in "clean energy" industries, for which
> Trump would remove incentives. Solar jobs alone amount to 205,000 jobs.

Im sure he/his party dont ignore this rapidly growing industry(..money) and 
the new companies IN the right country that they want all jobs and money 
to stay in, and Tesla really is a fantastic leader, Even Trumb will understand 
this

> Moving all those people into the coal/oil/gas industry is stupid, on many
> levels. How many rooftop solar installers would rather mine coal??

Hehe,  :-)


Speaking of carbon, here is UN talk Regarding Climate change 
and the "before the Flood"-film From National Geographic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-FM845giaI
6m, Published on Apr 22, 2016 United Nations - Statement by
Mr. Leonardo DiCaprio, United Nations Messenger of 
Peace at the opening of the High-level Signature Ceremony 
for the Paris Agreement.



And a fresh talk from Obama/Leonardo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxHKsaG6Guc

"Published on Oct 3, 2016
-On Monday, DiCaprio and Obama were joined by climate scientist 
Katharine Hayhoe from Texas Tech University. DiCaprio, who 
took on the role of interviewer for the evening, began by 
thanking Obama for his “extraordinary leadership” on environmental 
issues. “If you do not believe in climate change, you do not believe 
in facts,” the actor said, noting that anyone who doesn’t agree with 
the settled science “should not hold public office.” That comment, a 
clear dig at candidates like at Donald Trump who has called climate 
change a hoax perpetrated by China, was met with loud cheers from 
the crowd in attendance.

In turn, Obama told DiCaprio that he is “very proud” of his 
administration’s record on climate action, citing last year’s Paris 
agreement as an example of the progress being made. But he 
also admitted that even if every country held up their end of 
the bargain, it wouldn’t be enough. "Climate change is happening 
at a faster rate than what was predicted even 5 years ago,” the 
president said, adding that we’re in a “race against time.” While 
the idea of a carbon tax also got a big ovation from attendees, the 
president admitted the likelihood of any “immediate” action in 
that area is still a “ways away.”"


And, take a look at the film they made, 
/ John
  
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Jim wrote -

> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Walls [mailto:j...@k6ccc.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 4:43 PM
> To: Rush Dougherty; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
>
> Not trying to agree or disagree, but remember that one of the biggest issues
with the US
> economy is the regular moving of jobs off-shore.

I'm no economist but as I understand it, one of the reasons jobs move off-shore
is that the wages are cheaper overseas. And as we all know the only people
willing to take low paying jobs here in the US are immigrants... And Trump is
going to kick all of them out...

>A second is a substantial un-balance of
> trade.  Mr. Trump has somewhat regularly pushed that we need to get Americans
working
> again.  If he is able to enact his item five, it will put a bunch of Americans
to work in largely
> well paying jobs, and reduce oil imports which will have at least a little
improvement in the
> balance of trade.

That statement 'if he can' is pure speculation  and I'm not sure if Oklahoma
wants to have fracking continued... as I understand it they have a massive
increase in earthquakes so maybe it is not such a good idea to open up new
fields for fracking and drilling considering what it has done to our drinking
water, streams, natural habitat, mountain tops etc.

>  Although Rush Dougherty added the comment about no clean energy nor EVs,
there is
> nothing in Trump's statement to that effect (as included in his message).  To
assume things
> that are not there is speculation.
>
>  Also note that this discussion is really off-topic for the list...

No it's not, it pertains to EV's and how Trump is planning to increase the
production of oil, which I think most of us are against since we are on this
Electric Vehicle Discussion List.

>  Jim Walls
>
>
>
>   Original Message 
> > From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" 
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 3:02 PM
> > To: "Bill Woodcock" , "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
> >
> > Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his
> first 100
> > days -
> > "FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion
> dollars'
> > worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil,
> natural gas
> > and clean coal."
> >
> > More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to
> > it
> all over
> > again.
> >
> > Rush Dougherty
> > Tucson AZ 85719
>



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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Peri and all,

 

Just think a little about the average mentality – America loves oil, it makes 
their cars go for miles and miles and miles, and all it takes to fill up is a 
stop at the local 711, where you can get a hot dog and a coke or coffee by the 
way, or buy a lottery ticket (which you have 1 in a zillion chances to win). 
The only real EV is the Tesla. Look at the Leaf – it has battery problems and 
it takes hours to recharge the battery pack and you can only recharge in a 
couple places what a pia. And the Tesla is very very expensive, I’ll never be 
able to afford it, but I can get a beautiful gas car for only $18,000 or maybe 
even $16,000 and the price of gas is going to go down since they are going to 
be drilling for more of it, so it will be cheaper. Why should I waste my time 
with electric cars?

 

And I really take issue with “industry has started to invest heavily in EV’s” 
What are you referring to? All the parts except a few are just pulled from 
other cars, they even make the EV in gas version, or the gas version in an EV… 
And besides, there is a $7000 tax rebate on EV’s that is not being collected by 
the government.  And what about the road tax, since EV’s don’t buy gas, they 
don’t pay road tax… 

 

Rush Dougherty

Tucson AZ 85719

 

From: Peri Hartman [mailto:pe...@kotatko.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 4:14 PM
To: Rush Dougherty; 'Bill Woodcock'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

 

I'm concerned about that Trump statement, too. However, while he can use 
executive order to change a lot of things, he has to abide by congress for 
major changes. Plus the auto industry has started to invest heavily in EVs and 
I don't think they are going to change course abruptly. They will likely wait 
at least until the midterm elections to see which way congress goes. Am I being 
too optimistic?

 

Peir

 

-- Original Message --

From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

To: "'Bill Woodcock'" <wo...@pch.net>; "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>

Cc: 

Sent: 09-Nov-16 3:01:20 PM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

 

Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his first 100

days -

"FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars'

worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural 
gas

and clean coal."

 

More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to it all 
over

again.

 

Rush Dougherty

Tucson AZ 85719

 

 

 -Original Message-

 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock via EV

 Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 3:51 PM

 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List

 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

 

 

 > On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

 > I seriously wonder if the people on this list. who voted for trump realize 
 > the

 > mess that he is

 going to put us in.

 

 Is that not the null set, seriously?

 

 -Bill

 

 

 

 

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at

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 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[ROBERT via EV]

 Think you mean empty set not null set. Or maybe it is a set with one zero.



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Bill Woodcock via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2016 3:51 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's


> On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> I seriously wonder if the people on this list... who voted for trump realize 
> the mess that he is going to put us in.

Is that not the null set, seriously?

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

I think you are being optimistic.  Trump has a Republican Senate and House 
also.  There isn't much to slow him down.

I do take hope in the fact that EV and solar cell technology have both 
developed enough that they may do ok without government incentives any more.  I 
think it is slightly too early for that, but I think we are close.

That would be the ultimate message to leaders:  Even without incentives, the 
adoption rate still continues building.  That is the free market forces 
speaking.  

Mike


On November 9, 2016 4:13:52 PM MST, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:
>I'm concerned about that Trump statement, too. However, while he can
>use 
>executive order to change a lot of things, he has to abide by congress 
>for major changes. Plus the auto industry has started to invest heavily
>
>in EVs and I don't think they are going to change course abruptly. They
>
>will likely wait at least until the midterm elections to see which way 
>congress goes. Am I being too optimistic?
>
>Peir
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>To: "'Bill Woodcock'" <wo...@pch.net>; "'Electric Vehicle Discussion 
>List'" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>Cc:
>Sent: 09-Nov-16 3:01:20 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
>
>>Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his
>
>>first 100
>>days -
>>"FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion
>
>>dollars'
>>worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil,
>
>>natural gas
>>and clean coal."
>>
>>More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to
>
>>it all over
>>again.
>>
>>Rush Dougherty
>>Tucson AZ 85719
>>
>>
>>>  -Original Message-
>>>  From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill 
>>>Woodcock via EV
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 3:51 PM
>>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
>>>
>>>
>>>  > On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV 
>>><ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>>>  > I seriously wonder if the people on this list. who voted for
>trump 
>>>realize the
>>>  > mess that he is
>>>  going to put us in.
>>>
>>>  Is that not the null set, seriously?
>>>
>>>  -Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>  ___
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV 
>>>drag racing at
>>>  NEDRA
>>>  (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
>>
>>___
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>>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
>>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Thos True via EV]

Bush Jr. did it one swipe of the pen during his first 100 days. I remember
it clearly, within days of his CAFE action, the sales of conversion kits at
our shop dropped immediately, and never recovered. The auto makers stopped
selling NEV's, and the hybrids scaled their production way back.
You can expect that Europe , South America, and Asia will continue to
improve their air quality, but it seems that the good ol boys want to
produce money, instead of clean air.
As a result, we will surely be left behind in the growth of most
technologies.
Just my opinion BTW..

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> I'm concerned about that Trump statement, too. However, while he can use
> executive order to change a lot of things, he has to abide by congress for
> major changes. Plus the auto industry has started to invest heavily in EVs
> and I don't think they are going to change course abruptly. They will
> likely wait at least until the midterm elections to see which way congress
> goes. Am I being too optimistic?
>
> Peir
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> To: "'Bill Woodcock'" <wo...@pch.net>; "'Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List'" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
> Cc:
> Sent: 09-Nov-16 3:01:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
>
> Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his
>> first 100
>> days -
>> "FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion
>> dollars'
>> worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil,
>> natural gas
>> and clean coal."
>>
>> More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to it
>> all over
>> again.
>>
>> Rush Dougherty
>> Tucson AZ 85719
>>
>>
>>  -Original Message-
>>>  From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock
>>> via EV
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 3:51 PM
>>>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
>>>
>>>
>>>  > On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>  > I seriously wonder if the people on this list. who voted for trump
>>> realize the
>>>  > mess that he is
>>>  going to put us in.
>>>
>>>  Is that not the null set, seriously?
>>>
>>>  -Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>  ___
>>>  UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>>>  Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag
>>> racing at
>>>  NEDRA
>>>  (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'm concerned about that Trump statement, too. However, while he can use 
executive order to change a lot of things, he has to abide by congress 
for major changes. Plus the auto industry has started to invest heavily 
in EVs and I don't think they are going to change course abruptly. They 
will likely wait at least until the midterm elections to see which way 
congress goes. Am I being too optimistic?


Peir

-- Original Message --
From: "Rush Dougherty via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "'Bill Woodcock'" <wo...@pch.net>; "'Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List'" <ev@lists.evdl.org>

Cc:
Sent: 09-Nov-16 3:01:20 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his 
first 100

days -
"FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion 
dollars'
worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, 
natural gas

and clean coal."

More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to 
it all over

again.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719



 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill 
Woodcock via EV

 Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 3:51 PM
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's


 > On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
 > I seriously wonder if the people on this list. who voted for trump 
realize the

 > mess that he is
 going to put us in.

 Is that not the null set, seriously?

 -Bill




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drag racing at

 NEDRA
 (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Thos True via EV]

It does not even begin to end at the EV / PV level. You can expect an
effort to repeal any and all EPA regulations, among others.
I dare say that we have dipped our toe into the perverbial Pandora's box of
reality the likes of which we may never have imagined.

Buckle up folks, this looks to be a VERY bumpy ride!

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> Here's just one article about Turnip's view on climate change -
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/
> wp/2016/11/09/trump-victo
> ry-reverses-u-s-energy-and-environmental-priorities/?tid=pm_business_pop_b
>
> "Although Trump has portrayed himself as the ultimate outsider, in putting
> together a transition team the New York real estate mogul has chosen
> veteran
> Washington insiders, many of them lobbyists for fossil fuel companies and
> skeptics about climate science."
>
> And you can be sure that as soon as those "lobbyists for fossil fuel
> companies"
> have any sort of say or power all the EV benefits will be thrown out the
> window... no more PV discussions, no more wind power discussion.
>
> I seriously wonder if the people on this list, who have EV's or who are
> proponents of EV's and who voted for trump realize the mess that he is
> going to
> put us in.
>
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
>
>
>
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


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merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Here is one of the things Trump has said that he is going to do in his first 
100 
days -
"FIFTH, I will lift the restrictions on the production of $50 trillion dollars' 
worth of job-producing American energy reserves, including shale, oil, natural 
gas 
and clean coal."

More oil for cars and pollution, no clean energy, no EV's, get used to it all 
over 
again.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Woodcock via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 3:51 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> > I seriously wonder if the people on this list. who voted for trump realize 
> > the 
> > mess that he is
> going to put us in.
>
> Is that not the null set, seriously?
>
> -Bill
>
>
>
>
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> at 
> NEDRA
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)



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Re: [EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

> On Nov 9, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Rush Dougherty via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> I seriously wonder if the people on this list… who voted for trump realize 
> the mess that he is going to put us in.

Is that not the null set, seriously?

-Bill




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[EVDL] Trump and EV's

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Here's just one article about Turnip's view on climate change -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/11/09/trump-victo
ry-reverses-u-s-energy-and-environmental-priorities/?tid=pm_business_pop_b

"Although Trump has portrayed himself as the ultimate outsider, in putting
together a transition team the New York real estate mogul has chosen veteran
Washington insiders, many of them lobbyists for fossil fuel companies and
skeptics about climate science."

And you can be sure that as soon as those "lobbyists for fossil fuel companies"
have any sort of say or power all the EV benefits will be thrown out the
window... no more PV discussions, no more wind power discussion.

I seriously wonder if the people on this list, who have EV's or who are
proponents of EV's and who voted for trump realize the mess that he is going to
put us in.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719



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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV's In Production

[Lee Hart via EV]

I apologize for not following this thread diligently, so I'm probably 
missing a few things. Cor and Roger are doing a fine job, and I agree 
with their responses. I do have a couple of (hair-splitting) comments to 
add, though.


ROBERT via EV wrote:

Roger, let me try to clarify my concern...I take the 20A coil [cord?] and plug 
from
the charger in my converted car and plug into the adapter. However, it is an 
unsafe
circuit. I have connected a 50A rated source to a 20A circuit with
no interconnecting protection device.


That's perfectly fine. People do it all the time. For example, there is 
no reason you can't plug a string of Christmas tree lights that draw 0.1 
amp into a 15 amp circuit.



If I have a large scale NEMA receptacle system, I cannot prevent people
from using "bad equipment" or "bad configurations of equipment".


Yes; and that is a potential problem. UL, NEC, and SAE requirements are 
voluntary; they do not carry the force of law. People can (and do) 
whatever they please, whether it's safe or not. Anyone can sell and use 
anything in the USA, with or without UL/NEC/SAE compliance.


You can't stop a fool from plugging in a 1500w electric heater that 
draws 12 amps through an extension cord only rated for 3 amps. The 
extension cord burns up! The 15 amp breaker on that circuit won't trip 
unless the melted cord SHORTS. Hopefully, people learn from their 
mistake, and won't do that again!


Likewise, people routinely plug (say) a coffee pot and a toaster into 
one kitchen outlet. They discover that if they use both of them at once, 
the breaker trips. Not unsafe; but inconvenient. They learn not to do 
that, too!


Plugging in an EV is no different than any other AC appliance. I have 
confidence that the electricians who would wire a parking lot with AC 
receptacles for charging EVs will know what they're doing. After all, 
it's already been done for decades to power block heaters, street 
lights, etc. (If they don't know what they're doing, they'll soon learn!)


And, I am confident that people will figure out that there are good 
ways, and bad ways to plug in their EVs... just as they have for all 
their heaters, toasters, and other gadgets.


Some think we need "safety police" to enforce strict new standards for 
EVs that don't apply to anything else. The trouble is that most of this 
has nothing to do with safety (or they would apply it to *all* 
appliances). It is instead driven by greed (how can I make money off 
this), or protectionism (how can I stop EVs from threatening my ICE market).


--
“A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.”
William Blake
--
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[ROBERT via EV]

s that there are no 
charge cords left at each parking stall to be vandalised or stolen, however, 
the big disadvantage is that the vast majority (is anybody still building 
conversions?) of EVs that will use the charging infrastructure *don't* have 
NEMA connectors, but rather J1772 charge inlets.  So, each EV must carry around 
a NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cord/adapter to plug in and must somehow 
secure this relatively expensive cord so that it is not stolen while the car is 
unattended.

I think it would be relatively difficult to get support for installation of a 
new NEMA outlet-based charging infrastructure, and that there is probably an 
opportunity here for an inexpensive *level 1* J1772 charging station that could 
be installed in place of each NEMA outlet.  Ideally, someone would come up with 
an EVSE that does not have a permanently attached J1772 charge cord, but 
instead allows (requires) the user to first connect their own charge cord to 
the (de-energised) EVSE, and then plug the J1772 paddle into the vehicle 
receptacle.  A possibility is for the EVSE to have a receptacle into which the 
user's cord plugs that is equipped with a secure cover that can be closed to 
prevent the user's cord from being unplugged.  Provide an interlock such that 
the receptacle is de-energised when the cover is open, and a solenoid or other 
securing mechanism that prevents the cover from being opened after the J1772 
paddle is mated to the vehicle receptacle and is energised by 
 the EVSE.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Roger Stockton via EV]

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Roger, let me try to clarify my concern.  A person buys a third party
> J1772 to NEMA adapter (made in China and made cheap).  The adapter has a
> NEMA rated 20A plug.  The adapter does not produce a modified pilot
> signal.

Just to be clear, the adapter does not (*cannot*) produce a modified pilot 
signal since the NEMA outlet has no provision for a pilot signal connection and 
the charger that plugs into the NEMA outlet does not require a pilot signal.  
The pilot signal *from* the J1772 EVSE is one-way only; that is, it is 
generated by the EVSE to inform the load of the maximum current that may be 
drawn *at that particular time* (i.e. while the EVSE may be capable of up to 
50A, it is possible for it to limit the current available to the load to any 
value less than this at any time).  There is no way for a J1772 charger or 
adapter connected to the EVSE to tell the EVSE to reduce the maximum available 
current.

> I take the cord and plug from the EVSE that is rated at 50A and
> plug into the adapter.  I take the 20A coil and plug from the charger in
> my converted car and plug into the adapter.  The charger will not draw
> more than 20A from the EVSE.  This is OK load wise because the EVSE can
> output 50A.  However, it is an unsafe circuit.  I have connected a 50A
> rated source to a 20A circuit with no interconnecting protection
> device.

I understand your concern with this configuration now.  I agree that the EVSE 
breaker will not provide adequate protection for a lower current rated 
J1772-to-NEMA adapter connected between the EVSE and the load (charger).  Note 
that this scenario is irrelevant in the situation where a NEMA outlet is 
provided at each parking spot as the charging infrastructure (which is what was 
proposed).

Note also that any charger with any safety agency (CSA, UL, etc.) listing 
*will* have a protection device at its input appropriately rated to protect it. 
 In this case the safety concern reduces to a user who tries to use an adapter 
that is under-rated for their charger (but still does not apply to the 
situation of a NEMA outlet charging infrastructure).
 
> Lets go the other direction.  I have a NEMA to J1772 adapter
> with no pilot signal.

This situation is *not* possible.  The reason you have a NEMA to J1772 adapter 
is to provide a J1772 connection to the charger, and the J1772 charger 
*requires* a pilot signal from the EVSE ("adapter", in this case).  The adapter 
*must* provide a pilot signal, the only question is if it provides a pilot 
signal that is appropriate for the rating of the NEMA outlet/circuit that it is 
plugged into.

> If the cable from the adapter is plugged into a car
> with a 50A charger, the circuit breaker will trip

No.  Since the J1772 charger requires a pilot signal, and the EVSE/adapter must 
provide one, the 50A rated charger will draw no more than the amount of current 
signalled by the pilot signal.  In the absence of a pilot signal, the charger 
will not draw *any* current.

The only safety concern when using a NEMA to J1772 adapter is that the adapter 
might generate a pilot signal that allows the charger to draw more current than 
the NEMA outlet/circuit it is plugged into is rated for.

This should not occur for any competently designed adapter.  As I described in 
my prior post, if a 120V NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cord (adapter) has a 
5-15P NEMA plug at the wall end, then it "knows" that no matter what the supply 
circuit it is powered from might be rated for (i.e. 15A or 20A), it cannot 
allow the load to draw more than 12A since its own connector is only rated for 
15A (and such a circuit is limited to 12A max continuous loading).  If it has a 
5-20P NEMA plug at the wall end, then it "knows" that it can allow the load to 
draw up to 16A since its connector (and wiring) are rated for 20A and it can 
only be plugged into a receptacle/circuit rated for 20A.

In the event of use of an incompetently or unsafely designed adapter that 
generates a pilot signal allowing the charger to draw more current than the 
NEMA outlet it is powered from can safely deliver, the protection device 
between the supply and the NEMA outlet will trip and safely protect all 
connected devices.

I think that there is actually very little safety concern with a NEMA outlet 
charging infrastructure since the vast majority of people using NEMA to J1772 
adapters will be owners of OEM EVs and using the OEM opportunity charge cord 
provided by the OEM (i.e. competently designed adapters).

The main advantage of the NEMA outlet infrastructure, IMO, is that there are no 
charge cords left at each parking stall to be vandalised or stolen, however, 
the big disadvantage is that the vast majority (is anybody still building 
conversions?) of EVs that will use the charging infrastructure *don't* have 
NEMA connectors, but rather J1772 charge inlets.  So, each EV must carry around 
a NEMA to J1772 opportunity charge cord/adapter to 

Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[David Kerzel via EV]

hould (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A.
If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the
charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle
on a 20A rated circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK
to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for,
there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated
supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the
breaker will simply open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] CheapL2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Wed Nov 09 08:07:14 PST 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>You are correct.  If you install a 20A breaker or fuse in the adapter, then I 
>am OK with the adapter.  What I am not OK with is using a circuit breaker to 
>protect an end device.  Look at home appliances such as a coffee maker.  UL 
>requires that all coffee makers have a thermal overload.  The end device is 
>responsible for its own protection.  And yes, you are correct in stating that 
>the user is responsible for using the correct devices when connecting to a 
>receptacle.  I have never disputed these facts.

Actually, I think most of your argument against NEMA outlets could be summed up 
by "Straw Man Argument".
i.e. take one extreme case, and use it to justify the entire discussion.


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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[ROBERT via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] CheapL2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[ROBERT via EV]

> Again I must correct myself.  I looked back at the J1772 standard and
some
> past work that I did.  An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave.  The duty
cycle
> of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum amperage that the
EVSE
> can supply (rated current).  The vehicle is responsible for not
drawings a
> current greater than the EVSE rating.

Yes.

> All lower amperage adapters must
> limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter.  As an example.
If
> the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A,
the
> adapter must adjust the duty cycle.

This is where you lose me.  If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it
generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can
draw up to this amount.  There is no need or purpose for an adapter
between the EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772
inlet.  If the vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't
need (or understand) the J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for
an adapter to generate a pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower
current than the EVSE is capable of providing.

> It is possible to design a 20A
> adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty
cycle
> from the EVSE.

Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA
receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into
a public charging station.

This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA
receptacles were provided at each charging stall.  Most of us with
conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet,
and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord.

Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have
J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords;
these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the
wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in
between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the
vehicle/charger.  If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity
charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell
the charger not to draw more than 12A.  If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P
plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A
(since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated
circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is
OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated
for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its
associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated
breaker and the breaker will simply open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

But at the house end of the EVSE, It is still just a simple plug into 120
volt standard socket.  If the EVSE stuff is built-into the car, then all
the safety issues are identical.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Kerzel via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 10:06 AM
To: 'Roger Stockton'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn
Production

The biggest cost for either system is posible litigation when someone get
injured.  The risk is electrical from EV users and vandals to someone
tripping over a cable.
J1772 is about safety and preventing injury, the complex multi-level
guarding of the connection, GFI, and power is off before the connector is
mated to or separated from the car.  The price of quality EVSE has been
continually dropping and will continue to do so as more EVs get on the
road.

David Kerzel

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn
Production

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Again I must correct myself.  I looked back at the J1772 standard and
> some past work that I did.  An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave.  The
> duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum
> amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current).  The vehicle is
> responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating.

Yes.

> All lower amperage adapters must
> limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter.  As an example.
> If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A,
> the adapter must adjust the duty cycle.

This is where you lose me.  If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it
generates a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw
up to this amount.  There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the
EVSE and a vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet.  If the
vehicle doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or
understand) the
J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a
pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is
capable of providing.

> It is possible to design a 20A
> adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty
> cycle from the EVSE.

Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA
receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a
public charging station.

This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA
receptacles were provided at each charging stall.  Most of us with
conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet,
and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord.

Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have
J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords;
these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall
end, a
J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that
provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger.  If the
NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P,
then the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more
than 12A.
If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the
charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle
on a 20A rated circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is
OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated
for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its
associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated
breaker and the breaker will simply open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[David Kerzel via EV]

The biggest cost for either system is posible litigation when someone get
injured.  The risk is electrical from EV users and vandals to someone
tripping over a cable. 
J1772 is about safety and preventing injury, the complex multi-level
guarding of the connection, GFI, and power is off before the connector is
mated to or separated from the car.  The price of quality EVSE has been
continually dropping and will continue to do so as more EVs get on the road.

David Kerzel

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via
EV
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 4:37 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn
Production

ROBERT via EV wrote:

> Again I must correct myself.  I looked back at the J1772 standard and 
> some past work that I did.  An EVSE outputs a 1KHz square wave.  The 
> duty cycle of this wave informs the the vehicle of the maximum 
> amperage that the EVSE can supply (rated current).  The vehicle is 
> responsible for not drawings a current greater than the EVSE rating.

Yes.

> All lower amperage adapters must
> limit this duty cycle to the rating of the adapter.  As an example.  
> If the EVSE is rated at 50 amps and the adapter is only rated for 20A, 
> the adapter must adjust the duty cycle.

This is where you lose me.  If the EVSE is rated for 50A, then it generates
a pilot signal that informs the vehicle/charger that it can draw up to this
amount.  There is no need or purpose for an adapter between the EVSE and a
vehicle unless the vehicle does not have a J1772 inlet.  If the vehicle
doesn't have a J1772 inlet, then it also doesn't need (or understand) the
J1772 pilot signal and so there is no need for an adapter to generate a
pilot signal limiting the vehicle to a lower current than the EVSE is
capable of providing.

> It is possible to design a 20A
> adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty 
> cycle from the EVSE.

Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA
receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into a
public charging station.

This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA
receptacles were provided at each charging stall.  Most of us with
conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet, and
would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord.

Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have J1772
inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords; these are
effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the wall end, a
J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in between that
provides the appropriate pilot signal for the vehicle/charger.  If the NEMA
plug on the wall end of the opportunity charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then
the pilot signal should (must!) tell the charger not to draw more than 12A.
If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P plug, then the pilot signal can allow the
charger to draw up to 16A (since this plug can only mate with a receptacle
on a 20A rated circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is OK
to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated for,
there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its associated
supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated breaker and the
breaker will simply open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20161109

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Motor-Trend-lays-out-gt-GM-Bolt-EV-vs-Tesla-S-60-EV-td4684369.html
EVLN: Motor-Trend lays out> GM Bolt EV vs Tesla-S 60 EV
They are the 2016 Tesla Model S 60 sedan and the upcoming 2017 Chevrolet
Bolt EV hatchback. The magazine notes that the Model S 60 is an odd duck ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-10K-Sondors-EV-that-makes-avg-person-sense-gt-592-k-crowdfund-amp-growing-td4684368.html
EVLN: $10K Sondors EV that makes avg-person sense> $592+k crowdfund 
Sondors Electric Car Company is seeking to design, develop and manufacture
an affordable electric car ... (three wheels creates less drag)

+
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVjobs-Tesla-grabs-Grohmann-Engg-de-gt-1000-jobs-to-accelerate-EV-production-td4684367.html
EVjobs: Tesla grabs Grohmann_Engg.de > 1000 jobs to accelerate EV production
Tesla to Acquire German ... based-Grohmann Engineering ... specializes in
automated manufacturing ... (aka Tesla Advanced Automation Germany)

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Student-built-STORM-Eindhoven-e-motorcycles-complete-round-the-world-journey-td4684366.html
Student-built STORM Eindhoven e-motorcycles complete round-the-world journey
The Storm bike has a top speed of 160 km/h (99 mph)(Credit: TU ... The path
was ridden by a pair of self-built electric motorbikes called Storm ...




http://evdl.org/evln/
For all EVLN EV-newswire posts


{brucedp.0catch.com}

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Re: [EVDL] Slim pickens ... EV news drought (over?)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 8 Nov 2016 at 20:51, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> [* Friendly reminder: Political discussions are OT on the evdl ]

And then some.  There aren't many totally banned subjects on the EVDL, but 
partisan politics is one of the few.

So, just don't.  It will only lead to heartache, I just know it will.

That said, because the vehicle business is regulated, and EVs even more so, 
it's impossible to totally avoid politics.

I see no problem with discussion of how government policies affect EVs, and 
how we as EV proponents benefit from and/or cope with these policies.  

I expect that from January there will be significant changes to the US 
regulatory climate.  These will probably have an effect on the future 
availability and/or affordability of EVs, at least here, and maybe 
worldwide.

We'll probably be talking about those effects.  Well we should.  But that 
doesn't mean we have to get into partisan arguments over the policy changes 
that led to them.  

Changes are coming.  We will deal with them.  There's no point in arguing 
about whether they're right or wrong, good or bad.  

Consider it part of the climate we live in.  You don't rail against the snow 
when it comes; you get out there and shovel, right?  (There's a metaphor in 
there somewhere, but never mind.)

Please remember to check your frustration or elation at the door before 
putting hands to keyboard (or whatever gadget you use). That way we'll keep 
the discussion factual, rational, thoughtful, useful, civil, and -- you 
guessed it -- non-partisan.  

Thanks!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] CheapL2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production

[Cor van de Water via EV]

gnal limiting the vehicle to a lower
current than the EVSE is capable of providing.

> It is possible to design a 20A
> adapter with a switch and a resistor that does not modify the duty
cycle
> from the EVSE.

Yes, and this adapter is used to convert a J1772 EVSE *into* a NEMA
receptacle so that a non-J1772 compliant EV/charger may be plugged into
a public charging station.

This is exactly the opposite of what would be required or used if NEMA
receptacles were provided at each charging stall.  Most of us with
conversion EVs have chargers that can plug directly into a NEMA outlet,
and would not need an adapter more sophisticated than an extension cord.

Those of us with production EVs (other than Teslas, perhaps) will have
J1772 inlets and will need to use our J1772 "opportunity charge" cords;
these are effectively "smart" extension cords with a NEMA plug on the
wall end, a J1772 charge paddle on the vehicle end, and a small EVSE in
between that provides the appropriate pilot signal for the
vehicle/charger.  If the NEMA plug on the wall end of the opportunity
charge cord is a NEMA 5-15P, then the pilot signal should (must!) tell
the charger not to draw more than 12A.  If the cord has a NEMA 5-20P
plug, then the pilot signal can allow the charger to draw up to 16A
(since this plug can only mate with a receptacle on a 20A rated
circuit).

Even if the J1772 opportunity charge cord were to tell the charger it is
OK to draw more current than the NEMA receptacle and circuit are rated
for, there should be no safety issue: the NEMA receptacle and its
associated supply wiring will be protected by an appropriately rated
breaker and the breaker will simply open.

Cheers,

Roger.

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