Re: [EVDL] Delivery truck

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Simply not the case.

You are right that there is an issue with the ability to recycle other 
batteries. We do need to find a way to deal with lithium-ion battery waste. But 
I'm not aware of any health impacts associated with these batteries. What 
impacts were you referring to?

But lead acid battery processing remain a problem. Even the most effective 
emission controls can result in high risk levels throughout the local 
community. And most battery processing facilities don't have these controls.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 10:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on lead acid 
>> batteries.
>> 
>> The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are huge, 
>> contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which there is no 
>> safe exposure.
> 
> Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so can 
> the materials in just about any battery.
> 
> The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. 
> Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and 
> procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. Upwards 
> of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other battery comes 
> close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as trash and wind up in 
> landfills.
> 
> -- 
> It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
>-- William of Ockham
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Let me add that the percentage of recycled batteries is not the big problem, 
but those that ARE recycled.

As you say, much gets recycled in other countries where there are weak laws, 
and lots of emissions. 

But even if you look in this country, the requirements are still weak enough to 
cause major problems in nearby communities.

For example, even in "tough" Southern California, Exide was allowed to continue 
contaminating the nearby community for years, creating what may be an urban 
"Love Canal". Properties surrounding the facility for quite a distance are 
contaminated.



Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 7:07 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being 
>> recycled.
> 
> Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, 
> you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured 
> replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of 
> course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.  
> 
> To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide 
> increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every 
> one of them has a lead battery.
> 
> At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. 
> I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard 
> workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy 
> batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.
> 
> Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS 
> at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the 
> trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm 
> sure I probably missed the majority of them.
> 
> It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery 
> recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other 
> recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these 
> nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be 
> bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in 
> these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning 
> themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this 
> accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other 
> country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the 
> batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? 
> 
> Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, 
> and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?  
> Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual 
> responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this 
> list.  
> 
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the 
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own 
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap DC motor control anyone?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Jan Steinman via EV wrote:

Is this permanent, or temporary/intermittent use?


That's important, because while most treadmill motors have high advertised 
horsepower; in fact, they rarely deliver even a small fraction of that.


I’d put a full-wave bridge rectifier as close to the motor as possible,
and just call it a 120 VAC motor. Put a standard plug on it. Then you
could plug it in to a wide variety of AC power control devices, as Lee
suggests.


Good point! You do have to rectify the AC before it gets to the motor.


Then, it sounds like a job for a good old-fashioned variac transformer.


That would work great if it can handle the current. Small variacs (rated at a 
few amps) are pretty common and inexpensive used. But ones big enough to handle 
15 amps continuously are quite a bit heavier and more expensive (like 20 lbs and 
$100).



Lee’s ideas will still produce AC, and so would work fine for a universal
(series-wound) motor, but probably not for a permanent magnet motor


Definitely not for a PM motor. For some reason, I was thinking he had a 
universal motor, which doesn't care whether it's running on AC or DC.


Light dimmers typically use triacs, which are AC devices. But speed controls for 
electric drills more often use SCRs, which do have a DC output. The circuits I 
mentioned from the GE SCR manual are all suitable for PM DC motors as well as 
shunt and series motors, because they use SCRs for control. SCRs are better 
suited to inductive loads.



So, rectify that puppy, and lots more options become available!


Yes. :-)

--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
-- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] update, results Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor

[jerry freedomev via EV]

          Hi Dan, Lee, David and All,              I took all the ideas and 
made a sepex controller which was kind of jerky but that is likely because it 
isn't loaded and should work once linkage is worked out.  I'll likely use it on 
a moped cabin trike since I have the title, VIN, etc.              While 
looking at the Sepex and my other series motor transaxle I wondered whether the 
armature  was the same?   So I popped it apart and then it slide right in the 
series field, transaxle!!!   ;^)              Of course would it run?  I hooked 
it up and ran excellently.               So looking to put that in my next 
EWoody, an aerocabin trike I just cut first wood today.  I hope to have it on 
the road if not finished by 2-15-18 so I can get ride of my Van.               
Sadly I was also able to check the gear reduction which is 12-1 which means 
45mph is all one can get from it as hitting around 7k rpm.                Good 
thing is the male spline shaft coming out the  transaxle seems to have a good 
bearing  so may be able to put a sprocket on it to mount a more powerful motor 
off the axle lowering unsprung weight along with correcting the reduction 
gearing down to 8-1. .            I was stretching 2.2hp GC motors way past, 4x 
 their limits  though they took it in stride with few failures from 15-40 yr 
old motors when I got them.            And I need an EV that can go 250 miles 
to Miami, etc to pickup solar panels so I need more power than one can expect 
from a stock GC motor.  I have my old EWoody from a CitCar motor, 50 yrs old 
now chain driving a GC transaxle seems to be the present choice.           I 
can put it in my new one but likely sell that instead and build another one as 
they get easier as I build more.  Now I can put much more powerful motors in 
them really opens up new apps, long distance lithium battery EVs.           
Thanks,                Jerry Dycus 
  

  From: Dan Baker via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Dan Baker 
 Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 2:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hot rodding a SepEx golf cart motor
  
Hey Jerry

I would give Carl over at Evdrives a call, he should be able to recommend
something cost effective.  I have a couple 96 ezgos that I fixed one up for
my pig.  Originally one came with an aftermarket 36/48 Alltrax controller
which was running at 36v.  I replaced the dead batteries with a 48v pack,
motor had no issues running at that voltage but the used controller failed
within a couple months.  I replaced it with an Alltrax series controller
and D motor.  Shunt controllers are usually more expensive then series
controllers.  The EZGO TXT I have has a Spicer diff as well, not sure of
the exact ratios, you can get high speed gear sets but they are pricey
IMO.  The bolt pattern on my spicer axles is 4 x100 so larger rims from an
ATV or Civic would also give you more distance per turn.  Watch how much
load you put on those sealed motors, most are Iron cased and dissipate heat
poorly.  I have a thermostat and fan on mine now.

Cheers
Dan

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:53 AM, jerry freedomev via EV 
wrote:

>
>  Hi All,    I'm building some lightweight subcar EVs to demonstrate them
> as low cost transport plus I need long range EV transport until I get my 63
> Vette looking EV  done and to get rid of my costly and FF van.      Just
> picked up 2 Ez-Go GCs for scrap but not checking they turned out to have
> 36vdc ADC sep/ex motors transverse on Spicer transaxles.  My question is
> how best to make them work at 5500-6k rpm on 48vdc Volt modules?      My
> thinking is a starting resistor and I have a variable 20 amp, 80vdc DC
> power supply to start up.    First hitting the first the power
> supply/field full on and then the start solenoid , then short out the
> resistor and then reduce the field to increase speed.      Other
> suggestions like anyone doing it with Kelly controllers, etc as long as not
> too costly.  But I hear they need to be matched as other electronic ones
> do.      Anyone know the gear ratio on these Spicer transaxles, 1983??
>          Thanks,                    Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Price, Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

[jerry freedomev via EV]

      Hi Bill, Lee and All,           Batteries are as well as can be recycled, 
in the US because it has always been nicely profitable and those who collect 
metals and many others always have an eye out for le   ad batteries because 
they are quick cash.            While batteries alone which w are talking 
about, while maybe not 98%, is getting close to it.            For those 
recycling them news is great because EV, storage demand in the world is way up, 
recent price quotes were  $.35/lb meaning $20 or so per GC battery.           
While that looks great for now, eventually Li, other batteries will replace 
them, prices drop and thy get left behind.              We need a solution for 
that and I think it is grid batteries, submarine style that last 20 yrs and 
with a reformer onsite, would have unlimited life with a $.10lb floor price to 
make sure it is recycled.             Jerry Dycus 

  From: Bill Dube via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Bill Dube 
 Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:20 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)
  
Lee, I think this 98% recycled is a case of very carefully drawing the 
envelope. I believe it only accounts for batteries that make it though 
the front gate of the recycling facility.

Here is why:

According to the International Lead Association's figures, lead-acid 
batteries use 85% of all the lead produced form all sources. (This 
percentage goes up a touch with each passing year because lead is used 
in fewer other products.)
About 50% of the lead produced is mined, and 50% comes from recycled 
lead. This is also directly from the ILA figures.
This ~50% recycled fraction has been quite steady for quite a few years.
https://www.ila-lead.org/lead-facts/lead-recycling

If _none_ of the lead used for other than lead-acid batteries is 
recycled but ends up in the land fill, (not true, but bear with me) 
where is the remaining 35% of the lead used for lead acid batteries going?

Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries is _not_ being 
recycled. If they were recycled at 98%, there would be at least 83% of 
the lead production would be from recycled lead from lead-acid 
batteries.  Only 50% comes from recycled lead.

The figures just don't add up. At least 35% of lead-acid batteries are 
ending up in the land fill. Just doing basic mass balance accounting 
using the ILA figures.

Indeed, an entire EV's worth of batteries is more likely to end up at 
the recycler than an alarm battery, but the 98% I believe is "creative 
accounting" at best.

Bill D.


On 1/23/2018 11:40 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> I'm always reluctant to recommend large scale solutions relying on 
>> lead acid batteries.
>>
>> The adverse environmental impacts of plants that process them are 
>> huge, contaminating nearby communities with lead emissions for which 
>> there is no safe exposure.
>
> Lead can certainly be bad for people and the environment. But then, so 
> can the materials in just about any battery.
>
> The key lies in *responsible* manufacturing, handling and recycling. 
> Lead-acid batteries have been around so long that there are laws and 
> procedures (in most developed countries) that prohibit bad practices. 
> Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries. No other 
> battery comes close. The majority of them are (sadly) thrown out as 
> trash and wind up in landfills.
>

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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

[Paul Compton via EV]

98% recyclable, not 98% recycled.

On 24 January 2018 at 15:07, EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
>> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
>> recycled.
>
> Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply,
> you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured
> replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of
> course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.
>
> To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide
> increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every
> one of them has a lead battery.
>
> At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible.
> I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard
> workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy
> batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.
>
> Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS
> at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the
> trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm
> sure I probably missed the majority of them.
>
> It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery
> recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other
> recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these
> nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be
> bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in
> these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning
> themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this
> accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other
> country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the
> batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back?
>
> Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries,
> and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?
> Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual
> responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this
> list.
>
> I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
> years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
> observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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-- 
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Cheap DC motor control anyone?

[Jan Steinman via EV]

> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 00:59:48 + (UTC)
> 
> Working on a belt sander project using a 130V PMDC motor off a treadmill. The 
> control board got crushed so I need a simple cheap adjustable speed control. 
> Anyone have something laying around they want to get rid of? Need 115Vac 
> input. Thanks Dach.

Is this permanent, or temporary/intermittent use?

I’d put a full-wave bridge rectifier as close to the motor as possible, and 
just call it a 120 VAC motor. Put a standard plug on it. Then you could plug it 
in to a wide variety of AC power control devices, as Lee suggests.

Then, it sounds like a job for a good old-fashioned variac transformer. They 
aren’t cheap brand new, but you can sometimes find them cheap in surplus or ham 
radio estate sales.

If you don’t intend this to be permanent, you could put your variac in a box 
with a volt meter and a couple standard AC outlets. It can be handy that way 
for so many things.

Lee’s ideas will still produce AC, and so would work fine for a universal 
(series-wound) motor, but probably not for a permanent magnet motor, which will 
just try to go forward and reverse at 60Hz and make a loud hum before it burns 
out.

But if you rectify what goes into your PMDC motor, SCR dimmers should work 
well. Older drills used SCR phase control, but I think newer ones use PWM, 
which will probably make a better speed control than an SCR phase-control will 
— but it will still require rectification for a PM motor.

So, rectify that puppy, and lots more options become available!

 Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op 

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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98%

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lee Hart wrote:
> Upwards of 98% of the lead is recycled into new batteries.

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being
recycled.


EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the
years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own
observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.


The problem here (as in politics) lies in using extreme cases as if they 
represent the middle.


For the 98% figure, I was thinking of what happens to normal lead-acid 
vehicle batteries; especially EV batteries in the US. They are large and 
expensive, and the cash value of a scrap battery is substantial. There 
are also laws that require recycling them. So almost all of these 
lead-acid batteries *do* get returned for recycling. I don't know if 
it's really 98%; but it's certainly very high.


But then there's the question of who does the reprocessing? If these 
batteries are reprocessed in the US, environmental laws mean that very 
little lead will be lost to the environment. But for facilities outside 
the US, all bets are off. There are plenty of horrible examples of how 
*not* to do it. (They probably BURN old batteries for heat in Lower 
Slobovia!)


I don't know the percentages of old batteries that get rebuilt in the 
US, versus what get sent to third world countries where laws are lax or 
nonexistent.


It's important to base our actions on fact; not alarmist extremes. 
Recycling *works* for lead-acid batteries. It's a model that should be 
followed for other battery types as well. It is faulty logic to say that 
since *some* lead-acid batteries are not recycled, there is no point in 
recycling programs at all; just ban lead outright instead.


With the growing use of other battery chemistries for EVs, it is 
important to set up *more* recycling standards to cover them as well. 
Right now, it is much harder to recycle nimh and lithium packs, making 
it more likely that they will wind up in landfills.


--
It is vanity to do with more that which can be done with less.
-- William of Ockham
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery recycling, Not 98% (was: Delivery truck)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 24 Jan 2018 at 0:20, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> Basically, at _least_ 35% of all lead-acid batteries are _not_ being 
> recycled.

Bill, sorry, but I think this is too simplistic. For this analysis to apply, 
you'd have to assume that essentially every lead battery manufactured 
replaces an existing lead battery.  Obviously that's not the case, so of 
course some newly mined lead has to enter the manufacturing stream.  

To name only one reason, each year the vehicle population worldwide 
increases about 3.5 percent.  The vast majority is ICEVs, but almost every 
one of them has a lead battery.

At the same time, the 98 percent figure has always struck me as implausible. 
I've seen too many explicit counter-examples, such as the coast guard 
workers I read about who (at least used to) regularly tip spent buoy 
batteries into the deep so they wouldn't have to haul them back to port.

Do you work in an office?  In the years I worked in a place that had a UPS 
at every computer workstation, the number of batteries I rescued from the 
trash and took home to my own recycling pile numbered in the dozens.  I'm 
sure I probably missed the majority of them.

It's also shocking to read the harrowing accounts of third-world battery 
recycling. Apparently it's cheaper to export some batteries and other 
recyclables to low-wage countries for dismantling.  In many cases these 
nations have weak or nonexistent environmental laws, or the laws can be 
bypassed with a small cash payment.  Thousands of dirt-poor people work in 
these gigantic festering scrap piles, with no protective gear, poisoning 
themselves and their air, water, and ground day after day.  How is this 
accounted for?  Do we ignore it because they're lead-polluting some other 
country, not ours?  And shouldn't we consider the impact of shipping the 
batteries over, and the reclaimed materials back? 

Sure, there's a well developed recyling infrastructure for lead batteries, 
and thank goodness for it.  But what are the consequences for not using it?  
Nobody is checking your trash.  In the end it's down to individual 
responsibility.  Good luck finding much of that,  outside of folks on this 
list.  

I've seen this 98 percent battery recycling figure many times over the 
years. While (as the song says) data is not the plural of anecdote, my own 
observations, reading, and experience make me skeptical about it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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