Re: [EVDL] Daily driving

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

BTW, Lee, you are not alone. My daily commute is 35 mi round trip.


That's TWO people!

"You can drive any place that you want, in an electric car."

"If one person does it, they may think he's really sick and
they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in
harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they won't
take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you
imagine, three people walking in singin' a bar of Alice's
Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an
organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,
I said fifty people a day walking in singin' a bar of Alice's
Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's
a movement." ("Alice's Restaurant" by Arlo Guthrie)

And that's what it is folks; the EV Drive America Sane movement. :-)

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lee Hart wrote:
>> My (many decades old) memory of statistics is that a standard
>> deviation assumes a Normal distribution. I suspect that the
>> distribution of how many light are left on in a building is a
>> long way away from normal.

Awesome via EV wrote:
>> Well you're wrong.
>> The graph is smooth and continuous.
>> Here's a PDF:
>> 
http://www.lowcarbonlivingcrc.com.au/sites/all/files/publications_file_attachments/statistical_analysis_of_driving_factors_of_residential_energy_demand_-_final.pdf

>> I think that's pretty conclusive.

I'm sorry; but I'm still skeptical. That study was for 9000 homes in 
Sidney Australia. They're just measuring the total power used in the 
home; lighting is not separated. The report even says that gathering 
decent data is very difficult and error-prone.


So it says *nothing* about how many light are on in buildings.
--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20180727

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-SiTech-Gyon-EV-cn-in-LA-CA-8-8-Teases-Its-1st-r-435mi-tp4690715.html
EVLN: SiTech Gyon EV.cn in LA-CA 8/8> Teases Its 1st r:435mi
Gyon Teases Its First Electric Vehicle, Will Have A Range Of Up To 435 Miles
July 24, 2018  -13 hours ago  While Gyon is a new brand, the company is
being backed by SiTech ... design which was created with ... GFMI is ... the
“top concept car design and manufacturing company in the world ...
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/07/d1bb5906-gyon-e1532451909381.jpg


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-3-delivers-customer-Performance-2e-Motor-EVs-tp4690716.html
EVLN: Tesla-3 delivers customer Performance& 2e-Motor EVs
Tesla starts deliveries of Model 3 Performance and Dual Motor customer
vehicles
28 July 2018  -4 hours ago  ... Tesla Motors has commenced customer
deliveries of Tesla Model 3 Performance and Dual Motor versions means that
the new versions have now joined the Model 3 Long Range rear-wheel-drive
version on the road ... shipping some units of the new version to North
American stores ...
https://evbulletin.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/model-3-performance_1.jpg?itok=hKDowDXN


+
https://www.carspiritpk.com/2018/07/23/chinese-luxury-ev-startup-gyon-launching-next-month-in-usa/
Chinese Luxury EV Startup Gyon Launching Next Month in USA
July 23, 2018  - Although Gyon is a new brand, it is backed by major
investor Sitech Electric Automobile ... will be launched in USA next month
...


http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/thinking-ordering-tesla-model-3-delivery-times-can-vary-widely
long you may have to wait
July 24, 2018  -15 hours ago  Somebody still has to be at the back of the
line ... Nearly a month ago Tesla announced that it had achieved the
5,000-cars-per-week target by the end of the second quarter of 2018,
reaching that number of ...
http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-1200-675/public/model-3-performance-red-above-tarmac.jpg?itok=qqwoS3IK
...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-bear-apologizes-inaccurate-report/
Tesla bear apologizes to clients after releasing inaccurate TSLA note


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVr-prep4-Carr-fire-N-CA-utility-power-cut-v-tp4690713.html
EVr-prep4 Carr-fire N.CA utility power cut (v)
PG may cut electricity during high fire danger, are you prepared?
Jul 27, 2018  Fire season is upon us and PG warns that it may cut
electrical power during days of strong winds and extreme fire danger to
prevent a tragedy like last year's ...
http://abc30.com/video/embed/?pid=3796682




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-3 delivers customer Performance& 2e-Motor EVs

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://evbulletin.com/content/tesla-starts-deliveries-model-3-performance-and-dual-motor-customer-vehicles
Tesla starts deliveries of Model 3 Performance and Dual Motor customer
vehicles
28 July 2018  Aaron Lawson

[image  
https://evbulletin.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/model-3-performance_1.jpg?itok=hKDowDXN
]

In a recent report EV magazine Electrek has revealed that US electric
vehicle maker Tesla Motors has commenced customer deliveries of the
Performance and Dual Motor versions of its Model 3 electric car. Several
owners of the new versions have also confirmed the same.

The report implies that the customer deliveries of the Model 3 Performance
and Dual Motor versions has been started by Tesla in around two months
following the introduction of the two versions and the opening of their
orders.

The commencement of customer deliveries of Tesla Model 3 Performance and
Dual Motor versions means that the new versions have now joined the Model 3
Long Range rear-wheel-drive version on the road.

With Tesla already building a Performance Model 3 test drive fleet in recent
weeks by shipping some units of the new version to North American stores,
the automaker is now reaching customer vehicles to stores and delivery
centers country-wide. According to reports, some Performance Model 3 owners
have reported that they are taking deliveries of their vehicles, with Tesla
also scheduling deliveries in the coming days.

The start of Model 3 Performance and Dual Motor customer deliveries
indicates that Tesla’s launch of the two versions is ‘on schedule.’ Tesla
CEO Elon Musk had said in 2017 that the company would launch the two
versions in “mid-2018.” He recently said that production of both the
versions will be ramped up July, to begin volume production in
August-September.
[© 2018 evbulletin.com]


+
http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/thinking-ordering-tesla-model-3-delivery-times-can-vary-widely
long you may have to wait
July 24, 2018  -15 hours ago  Somebody still has to be at the back of the
line ... Nearly a month ago Tesla announced that it had achieved the
5,000-cars-per-week target by the end of the second quarter of 2018,
reaching that number of ...
http://hanabi.autoweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/gen-1200-675/public/model-3-performance-red-above-tarmac.jpg?itok=qqwoS3IK
...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-bear-apologizes-inaccurate-report/
Tesla bear apologizes to clients after releasing inaccurate TSLA note
July 25, 2018  -12 hours ago  According to the plaintiffs, Tesla's
executives were aware that the electric car could not be mass produced by
the end of 2017. Despite this, Musk and the ...
https://cdn.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/tesla-model-3-production-casrs-delivery-event-logo-e1532530248855.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


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[EVDL] EVLN: SiTech Gyon EV.cn in LA-CA 8/8> Teases Its 1st r:435mi

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/07/gyon-teases-first-electric-vehicle-will-range-435-miles/
Gyon Teases Its First Electric Vehicle, Will Have A Range Of Up To 435 Miles
July 24, 2018  Michael Gauthier

[image  
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/07/d1bb5906-gyon-e1532451909381.jpg
]

There’s no shortage of electric automakers in China and the latest will
reveal its first model in Los Angeles next month.

Produced by a new company called Gyon, the unnamed model promises to be a
high-performance luxury car that features advanced autonomous driving
technology.

The company is keeping details under wraps, but confirmed the car will have
a bold design which was created with the help of Gaffoglio Family
Metalcrafters, Inc. While the name probably doesn’t ring a bell, GFMI is
billed as the “top concept car design and manufacturing company in the
world.” Over the years, the company has helped to produce concepts such as
the Audi Cross Cabriolet Quattro, Chrysler ME 4-12, Dodge Demon and Jeep
Gladiator – among countless others ...

While that’s a pretty impressive resume, the teaser image doesn’t reveal
much. However, it suggests the car will have a dynamic design with a rakish
windscreen and muscular rear fenders. The image also hints the model could
have a distinctive buttress which connects the roof to the rear fenders.

Besides teasing the car, Gyon released a few initial specifications.
According to the automaker, the model will be able to accelerate from 0-62
mph (0-100 km/h) in four seconds or less and have a range of 310 – 435 miles
(500 – 700 km). The car will also come with an “intelligent vehicle
operating system” and the “highest-level autonomous driving system in the
world.” Little is known about the latter, but the company says the
autonomous driving technology will be provided by Bosch.

While Gyon is a new brand, the company is being backed by SiTech which bills
itself as one of China’s fastest growing electric vehicle companies. Gyon
also noted it will be committed to “providing electric vehicles designed
based on futuristic technology for the new generation of global customers.”
[© carscoops.com]
...
https://www.sitechdev.com/news/detail/50
(in Chinese - goog translated: The luxury electric car brand "Gang" came
out. The first concept car appeared in 2019 CES
2018-07-25 ...)


+
https://www.carspiritpk.com/2018/07/23/chinese-luxury-ev-startup-gyon-launching-next-month-in-usa/
Chinese Luxury EV Startup Gyon Launching Next Month in USA
July 23, 2018  - Although Gyon is a new brand, it is backed by major
investor Sitech Electric Automobile ... will be launched in USA next month
...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Excuse me, i think Bob said 50 lights, 5h, 75w so that is in the order of
20kWh, not 150.
So it is maybe twice as much as avg, not 10x.
With the 15+ kWh Bob can save with LEDs, he can drive approx 50-60 miles a
day.

BTW, Lee, you are not alone. My daily commute is 35 mi round trip.
Cor.

On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 8:53 PM Matt Awesome via EV  wrote:

> > My (many decades old) memory of statistics is that a standard deviation
> > assumes a Normal distribution. I suspect that the distribution of how
> many
> > light are left on in a building is a long way away from normal.
>
> Well you're wrong.
>
> The graph is smooth and continuous.
>
> If you want to get ultra-technical, I use the term "normally
> distributed" to be simpler and enough people are going to misconstrue
> that, but since it's not symetrical it's actually a Weibull
> Distribution (
> http://people.stern.nyu.edu/adamodar/New_Home_Page/StatFile/statdistns.htm
> , about half way down) since it's skewed left. It's skewed left since
> you can't use less than zero electricity (insignificant amounts of the
> population are net generators), but otherwise follows pretty much
> perfectly smooth and expected logarithmic curvatures, especially to
> the right on the high end.
>
> Here's a PDF:
> http://www.lowcarbonlivingcrc.com.au/sites/all/files/publications_file_attachments/statistical_analysis_of_driving_factors_of_residential_energy_demand_-_final.pdf
>
> Look at basically any of the graphs starting at page 9. They've broken
> it down 10 different ways, they all follow the same shape.
>
> If you hate PDFs, here is a direct link to the relevant graph:
> https://i.imgur.com/Uk5bfxo.png
>
> The point is that it's smooth and tapers, and how exceptionally rare
> it is for someone to be at 10x the rate of anyone else. The average on
> this graph is around 15kwh/day, look how far to the right 150wh/day
> is. Even for this massive sample size (3300 households) it's an
> immeasurably small amount of the population.
>
> Even the amount to the right of 4x the average (60kwh/day) is less than 1%.
>
> > We have this same debate every time someone mentions that the "average"
> > person drives 35 miles per day; so an EV with a 50-mile range is fine.
> But
> > everyone jumps in to say they don't know *anyone* who drives 35
> miles/day --
> > they all drive 100+miles/day, or virtually no miles most days.
>
> Again, that is exactly the purpose of not just looking at a blind
> average but to also look at the standard deviation (or lambda, or
> whatever is relevant for the distribution math). The thing you're
> confused about is already included in what I was saying.
>
> Look at the graph I linked above. That is the raw data itself, not
> just average it's the actual data. If what you're saying is true there
> would be a double-peak, one low one high. We do not see that. We see
> nice, smooth, distribution as we head to the right.
>
> I think that's pretty conclusive.
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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[EVDL] EVr-prep4 Carr-fire N.CA utility power cut (v)

[brucedp5 via EV]

% The newsitem below barely mentions EVs and is more concerned about keeping
cell phones charged. If you read through their safety tips, EV owners in
areas where utility power cuts are imminent, could follow the same tips but
also apply them to their EV.

Not mentioned is a standard ice alternator does not put out much current to
recharge the 12V ice-starter battery. Likely the most one could sustain with
the ice running on a full tank would be a low power level from the 12V to
120VAC inverter drawing off that start battery. Perhaps not even enough to
recharge an EV at L1.

But that inverter could run the refrigerator, or recharge phones, or the TV,
etc.

It has been previously posted before on the evdl where an EV was used to
power the above devices. But not directly off the EV's high-voltage pack,
but inefficiently off the EV's 12V aux battery recharged off the EV's high
voltage pack.

Short of selecting an EV purchase with V2G capability, and also buying the
equipment to tap into the EV V2G power more efficiently, most EV'r would
likely use the same cheaper method as pulling power off the ice 12V starter
battery. %


-
http://abc30.com/society/possible-blackouts-during-high-fire-conditions/3834337/
PG may cut electricity during high fire danger, are you prepared?
July 27, 2018  Juan Carlos Guerrero

[video
http://abc30.com/video/embed/?pid=3796682
Ronald Cheung from Garage Masters shows how to open a garage door during a
power outage
]

If it is too hot, stay inside. That is what experts are saying as the
record-breaking heat continues.

SAN FRANCISCO -- Fire season is upon us and PG warns that it may cut
electrical power during days of strong winds and extreme fire danger to
prevent a tragedy like last year's Wine Country fires, when it is suspected
that downed transformers sparked several fires.

A forced blackout would leave residents in the dark, in more ways than one.
That's because devices we have come to rely on need electricity to function,
like WiFi transmitters, streaming televisions and digital assistants like
Amazon's Echo and Google Home.

Here are some tips to prepare for a power outage.

1. Keep your [EV&] smartphone fully charged.

2. Use an external battery charger that can charge your [EV&] phone
several times. If possible, purchase a more robust battery charger that can
charge several devices at a time.

3. Turn your [ice] car into an emergency generator by using a power
inverter that turns DC current from your vehicle to AC current to power home
devices from your car.

4. Store plenty of batteries to power LED flashlights and portable
radios. Remember, streaming services won't work without electricity.

5. Refill your car's gas tank when it reaches half a tank to avoid being
caught without gasoline during a prolonged blackout. Gas pumps rely on
electricity to function. If you own an electric vehicle, keep it fully
charged.

6. Keep plenty of cash on hand since ATM machines likely won't work
during a power outage. Credit card machines also require electricity.

7. Disconnect your computer and use a surge protector to avoid damage
from a power surge when the electricity comes back on.

8. Learn to operate your garage door without electricity. Pull on the
red handle that should be dangling from the garage door unit. This will
unhinge the door from the rail so that you can manually lift the door. Some
doors have a key so they can be opened from the outside during a power
outage.

9. Freeze water in plastic containers so that they will keep food cold
during a temporary outage. A freezer can keep food safe for 48 if the door
is unopened. The refrigerator should maintain cool temperatures for about
four hours if the door is not opened.

10. Make sure every member of your family has an emergency contact list
printed out in case a cellphone battery dies.

11. Store non-perishable foods and drinking water for you and your
family. Items like crackers, trail mix, canned tuna and dried fruit do not
require a stove or electricity to prepare.

12. Consider your family's medical needs. Store necessary medications
and prepare an emergency power source for any medical devices that require
electricity.
[© 2018 ABC, KFSN-TV Fresno, CA]
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=redding+"carr"+fire
redding "carr" fire
...
http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/2164
CA fires (map)
...
http://wildfiretoday.com/2018/07/28/carr-fire-more-than-doubles-in-size-near-redding-california/
Carr Fire more than doubles in size near Redding, California
July 28, 2018  12 hours ago - Map showing the east side of the Carr Fire
near Redding at 1:45 a.m. PDT July 28, 2018. The yellow line was the
perimeter 25 hours before ... (map)
https://i2.wp.com/wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/CarrFire_145amPDT_7-28.jpg
-




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: 

Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

[Matt Awesome via EV]

> My (many decades old) memory of statistics is that a standard deviation
> assumes a Normal distribution. I suspect that the distribution of how many
> light are left on in a building is a long way away from normal.

Well you're wrong.

The graph is smooth and continuous.

If you want to get ultra-technical, I use the term "normally
distributed" to be simpler and enough people are going to misconstrue
that, but since it's not symetrical it's actually a Weibull
Distribution 
(http://people.stern.nyu.edu/adamodar/New_Home_Page/StatFile/statdistns.htm
, about half way down) since it's skewed left. It's skewed left since
you can't use less than zero electricity (insignificant amounts of the
population are net generators), but otherwise follows pretty much
perfectly smooth and expected logarithmic curvatures, especially to
the right on the high end.

Here's a PDF: 
http://www.lowcarbonlivingcrc.com.au/sites/all/files/publications_file_attachments/statistical_analysis_of_driving_factors_of_residential_energy_demand_-_final.pdf

Look at basically any of the graphs starting at page 9. They've broken
it down 10 different ways, they all follow the same shape.

If you hate PDFs, here is a direct link to the relevant graph:
https://i.imgur.com/Uk5bfxo.png

The point is that it's smooth and tapers, and how exceptionally rare
it is for someone to be at 10x the rate of anyone else. The average on
this graph is around 15kwh/day, look how far to the right 150wh/day
is. Even for this massive sample size (3300 households) it's an
immeasurably small amount of the population.

Even the amount to the right of 4x the average (60kwh/day) is less than 1%.

> We have this same debate every time someone mentions that the "average"
> person drives 35 miles per day; so an EV with a 50-mile range is fine. But
> everyone jumps in to say they don't know *anyone* who drives 35 miles/day --
> they all drive 100+miles/day, or virtually no miles most days.

Again, that is exactly the purpose of not just looking at a blind
average but to also look at the standard deviation (or lambda, or
whatever is relevant for the distribution math). The thing you're
confused about is already included in what I was saying.

Look at the graph I linked above. That is the raw data itself, not
just average it's the actual data. If what you're saying is true there
would be a double-peak, one low one high. We do not see that. We see
nice, smooth, distribution as we head to the right.

I think that's pretty conclusive.
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Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

[ROBERT via EV]

I also have a GE unit.  I installed the unit last September.  I installed an 
energy monitor and have been tracking the KW-Hrs usage.  It is a very efficient 
unit and I am happy with the unit.  However, the GE unit has a poor rating.  
The first units were made in KY.  The next series were made in China thus the 
poor rating.  My is installed in my garage and I run only in e-mode.  I 
investigated the hybrid units for our new house.  The AO Smith unit is a little 
more efficient; however, it does not have a high rating and the tank only has a 
10 yr warranty.  Electrolux unit has a stainless steel tank and a 12 year 
warranty.  However, I am not sure it is in production.


From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 12:53 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

I love mine.  It is quiet a little more than a refrigerator but nothing at
all like a windw AC unit for noise.  What I love about it is the
serendipitous dehumidifying.  My basement has always been a place of doom
and mold and wetness.  I was too cheap to run a dehumidifier (basically a
year round AC unit going nowhwere)...  Now I get that function for free
while also heating hot water at 1/3rd the energy.

But, my wife is very picky.  So I run it in hybrid mode.  That is, the
heatpump heats from the bottom of the tank upwards to 100 F (where it is
most efficient) and then I set the top of the water heater to 120F which
is done by electric.   So, with incoming water at 60F, then the first 40
degrees is done ver efficiently maybe for 1/3rd the normal cost and the
top 1/4th of the tank is raised another 20F to satisfy my wife.

Donno how long it takes after full depletion.  Never happens now that the
kids are gone.  Oh, and the heat pumped out of the basement is simply not
noticed.  I even call this a "ground source" water heatpump, because the
basement is half concrete with normal floors and the other half is
crawlspace over dirt.  SO aany/all heat in the basement comes from the
ground or waste heat from occasional laundry, yet the temperature in the
basement never seems to get cold.  Even though the heatpump water heater
is taking heat out of it.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

Mark,

I've been considering a heat pump HW tank. My current tank is close to
20 years old and probably will need replacing soon. Two big concerns I
have are
- how long is the heat pump mechanism warrantied?
- how noisy is it?
A third question is how long does it take to get hot enough for a shower,
if depleted? Assume 50F cold water.

In our case, the garage, where we have the HW tank, is under our living
space and very close to our master bedroom. I don't want to hear humming
through the floor.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:23:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

>Hi Lee etc
>I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w
>instead of 4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the
>same btu h20 heating and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any
>climate as long as your underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE
>etc just takes their refrigerator compressors and puts them in
>backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just marketing speak for
>consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a AC unit
>outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO Smith
>and Siebel etc make also.
>Have a renewable energy day
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>___
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Matt Awesome via EV wrote:

It's not that simple. There are huge variations, so the "average" doesn't
necessarily apply to all that many people


That's exactly what standard deviation is for, to know the probability
(or occurrence) of a given situation. A broadly spread dataset is
different from a tightly grouped dataset, and that's what standard
deviation tells you. Your criticism is already included in the model.
The way I used it is in proper context, so it makes sense.


The statistics are slippery. The extremes don't make the case. But neither
can you take the national average, and assume that everyone is like that,
right in the middle.


You're correct.

But that's not what I did. What I did includes everything you're
thinking about and more.


My (many decades old) memory of statistics is that a standard deviation 
assumes a Normal distribution. I suspect that the distribution of how 
many light are left on in a building is a long way away from normal.


We have this same debate every time someone mentions that the "average" 
person drives 35 miles per day; so an EV with a 50-mile range is fine. 
But everyone jumps in to say they don't know *anyone* who drives 35 
miles/day -- they all drive 100+miles/day, or virtually no miles most 
days. (Me; I just happen to be that lone data point that really *does* 
drive about 35 miles/day. That's why plain old lead-acid EVs have always 
worked for me).


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Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Advice on CAM72Fi vs. leaf cells

[paul dove via EV]

Leaf cells are not LFP and have a different voltage. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2018, at 1:52 PM, ken via EV  wrote:
> 
> I have a scooter that runs 24 cells LFP . I'm looking to do and extra add
> on pack to extend my range. I could lower the volt on the pack to 65 -/+
> and work just fine.  but what what would be my best $/ah  CAM72Fi  or
> leaf cells.
> 
> I can get CAM72Fi  localy for $100 .
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (corrected)

[Matt Awesome via EV]

> It's not that simple. There are huge variations, so the "average" doesn't
> necessarily apply to all that many people

That's exactly what standard deviation is for, to know the probability
(or occurrence) of a given situation. A broadly spread dataset is
different from a tightly grouped dataset, and that's what standard
deviation tells you. Your criticism is already included in the model.
The way I used it is in proper context, so it makes sense.

> The statistics are slippery. The extremes don't make the case. But neither
> can you take the national average, and assume that everyone is like that,
> right in the middle.

You're correct.

But that's not what I did. What I did includes everything you're
thinking about and more.
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Re: [EVDL] BMS Sensor Selection

[Lee Hart via EV]

bvgandhi via EV wrote:

Hi,

I was trying to develop a BMS on my own. While I used the Elithion website
to guide me through the ASIC selection for my slave board I am not sure as
to how do I select my temperature and voltage sensor for an efficient
circuit design. I am a mechanical engineer by vocation so I would really
appreciate an electrical engineering perspective.


This is a problem I've put a lot of effort into as well. I've done a 
number of BMS designs over the years, both for myself and for clients. 
Nothing is perfect, but I like mine better than the crappy Chinese 
versions, or overly complex auto company ones.


It's not a simple problem. It needs to be reliable, as you're going to 
duplicate the circuit perhaps 100 times. It also has to keep working for 
years, in the harsh automotive environment. This is what knocks out the 
cheap ones.


It also needs to be fail-safe. Failure modes cannot lead to dangerous 
conditions that murder batteries, or even worse, start fires! This is a 
hidden danger with many poorly designed BMS. This is what gives BMS a 
bad rep, and leads many to go with *no* BMS rather than a bad one.


It also needs to be affordable. People simply won't pay for reliability 
and safety -- when they don't know what they're doing, they go for 
"cheap" as their #1 criteria.


I know it is fashionable to use computers for everything. But I think 
this is a case where KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is desirable. 
Computers need programming; and virtually every program has bugs. 
Computers also need power, which can run down the cells from just 
sitting. And they "crash" in unpredictable ways. So I would rather have 
the circuit-per-cell not depends on a microcomputer.


Fundamentally, there are only a few things that a BMS must do:

1. Generate an alarm if a cell gets low.
2. Reduce power or shut down the controller if a cell gets too low.
3. Generate an alarm if a cell gets too high.
4. Reduce power or shut down the charger if a cell gets too high.

If this is all you want, I've designed several dirt-simple BMS. These 
were inspired by Cedric Lynch's minimalist BMS. Basically, you have a 
tiny circuit across each cell. It contains a half dozen parts that cost 
about 50 cents total, to perform as follows:


1. A zener diode to shunt excess charging current when cell voltage 
exceeds its threshold. The shunt current is low, so the cells had better 
be well balanced to begin with, and it takes a long time to balance at 
the end of a charge cycle.

2. An LED that lights to show when the zener is shunting current.
3. An optocoupler, whose output turns on when shunting current. The 
output side of all these optos are in parallel, so when any one turns 
on, it activates your dash warning light and cuts back your charger.
4. Another optocoupler that is normally on when the cell voltage is 
above your "low" threshold.  Their outputs are all in series, so any one 
turning off breaks the chain, to activate your dash warning light and 
cut back your controller.


If you also want it to Balance (and not just monitor), then the BMS 
needs a way to individually charge and/or discharge a single cell, to 
bring it back into balance with the rest. This adds:


5. A way to switch a load across an individual cell, to slow down its 
charging. This is the cheapest, and so most popular approach.
6. A way to charge an individual cell, so speed up its charging. This is 
harder, but more efficient and versatile (lets you commission a new 
pack, or balance a mismatched pack).


Then, there are nice-to-have features if you're more technically 
inclined and want to know what is going on "under the hood".


7. A way to read the voltage of each cell. This provides a maintenance 
check, to insure that things are working as intended.


8. A way to measure the temperature of each cell, or at least groups of 
cells, so you don't try to use them if the temperature is out of spec.


My own conclusion is that the best approach to provide these features is 
to have one relay per cell. The relay routes the voltage of that cell to 
a central controller, which can measure its voltage, charge, and 
discharge the cell as appropriate.


Then you can put a lot more effort into making the central controller 
accurate, reliable, and fail-safe.


This is what I've done with my Battery Balancer 
. It's a home-made prototype that I 
built for myself as a research tool to explore the idea. It's therefore 
expensive, as I don't have the resources to perfect or commercialize it 
(and I doubt there is any market). But it's a starting point if others 
want to help!


--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I love mine.  It is quiet a little more than a refrigerator but nothing at
all like a windw AC unit for noise.  What I love about it is the
serendipitous dehumidifying.  My basement has always been a place of doom
and mold and wetness.  I was too cheap to run a dehumidifier (basically a
year round AC unit going nowhwere)...  Now I get that function for free
while also heating hot water at 1/3rd the energy.

But, my wife is very picky.  So I run it in hybrid mode.  That is, the
heatpump heats from the bottom of the tank upwards to 100 F (where it is
most efficient) and then I set the top of the water heater to 120F which
is done by electric.   So, with incoming water at 60F, then the first 40
degrees is done ver efficiently maybe for 1/3rd the normal cost and the
top 1/4th of the tank is raised another 20F to satisfy my wife.

Donno how long it takes after full depletion.  Never happens now that the
kids are gone.  Oh, and the heat pumped out of the basement is simply not
noticed.  I even call this a "ground source" water heatpump, because the
basement is half concrete with normal floors and the other half is
crawlspace over dirt.  SO aany/all heat in the basement comes from the
ground or waste heat from occasional laundry, yet the temperature in the
basement never seems to get cold.  Even though the heatpump water heater
is taking heat out of it.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:48 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

Mark,

I've been considering a heat pump HW tank. My current tank is close to
20 years old and probably will need replacing soon. Two big concerns I
have are
- how long is the heat pump mechanism warrantied?
- how noisy is it?
A third question is how long does it take to get hot enough for a shower,
if depleted? Assume 50F cold water.

In our case, the garage, where we have the HW tank, is under our living
space and very close to our master bedroom. I don't want to hear humming
through the floor.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:23:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

>Hi Lee etc
>I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w
>instead of 4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the
>same btu h20 heating and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any
>climate as long as your underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE
>etc just takes their refrigerator compressors and puts them in
>backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just marketing speak for
>consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a AC unit
>outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO Smith
>and Siebel etc make also.
>Have a renewable energy day
>Mark
>
>Sent from my iPhone
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Advice on CAM72Fi vs. leaf cells

[Cor van de Water via EV]

You realize that Leaf modules are two cells in series?
Though i would be uncomfortable to have two packs in parallel without good
info on charge and discharge conditions.
Also, Leaf cells deteriorate so many loose modules you buy online are not
the capacity you think, may be as low as 40Ah instead of the 65 or so when
new.
Those still have some value, but not the $100 per that some are asking. I
always try to advertise the real capacity of cells i have or clearly say
that i do not know, so you are aware what you get yourself into.
Cor.

On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 11:52 AM ken via EV  wrote:

>  I have a scooter that runs 24 cells LFP . I'm looking to do and extra add
> on pack to extend my range. I could lower the volt on the pack to 65 -/+
> and work just fine.  but what what would be my best $/ah  CAM72Fi  or
> leaf cells.
>
> I can get CAM72Fi  localy for $100 .
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
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[EVDL] Advice on CAM72Fi vs. leaf cells

[ken via EV]

 I have a scooter that runs 24 cells LFP . I'm looking to do and extra add
on pack to extend my range. I could lower the volt on the pack to 65 -/+
and work just fine.  but what what would be my best $/ah  CAM72Fi  or
leaf cells.

I can get CAM72Fi  localy for $100 .

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[EVDL] L3 EVSE: Chademo still lagging behind on the west coast electric Hwy I-5

[brucedp5 via EV]

Lawrence,

a couple of points:
 other than letting you feel good venting on the evdl to fellow EV'rs (and
providing some interesting detail on your EV route/experiences), we can't do
much about correcting the too far away gaps between public L3 EVSE. I have
vented in the past but always let the powers that be also know.

I suggest (if you haven't already) shoot these lack of infrastructure
concerns to those that can act on them. VW is still touting how great are
their efforts to install EVSE
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan
Over a ten year period ending in 2027, Electrify America will invest $2
billion in Zero ... charging network -- to drive EV adoption by reducing
charging anxiety ...
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=volkswagen+charging


VW wouldn't be making such an effort if it were for the efforts of many
(including sierra club) to sue/hold vw responsible for their dieselgate
https://www.sierraclub.org/press-releases/2017/11/all-50-states-apply-for-vw-settlement-funds-ahead-schedule

So, I would let both sierra club and their buddies at plug in america know
of the charging discrepancies.

2nd point: I think you and I are using plugshare differently, giving
different results.
You mentioned Mt. Shasta, but sometimes Lake Shasta is transposed in the
word use. If I understand correctly, you are EV touring/trekking north on
I-5 from Sacramento aiming for just south of Medford, OR.

I came up with L3 CHAdeMO points to get you there and back (map)
https://goo.gl/maps/wLYRweUf9Es

https://www.plugshare.com/location/81743
2256 Solano St, Corning, CA 96021

https://www.plugshare.com/location/7
833 E Cypress Ave, Redding, CA 96002

https://www.plugshare.com/location/81745
4314 Pioneer Way, Dunsmuir, CA 96025

https://www.plugshare.com/location/75901
1868 Fort Jones Rd, Yreka, CA 96097

https://www.plugshare.com/location/6542
2371 Ashland St, Ashland, OR 97520


The way I did this was to open plugshare.com , set the filters to only look
for j1772, L3-CHAdeMO, & L3-ccs.
The move the plugshare map to show what L3 were along I-5 to reach your
destination.




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Sorry everyone, meant to be a private message.

-- Original Message --
From: "Peri Hartman via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Peri Hartman" 
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:47:37 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters


Mark,

I've been considering a heat pump HW tank. My current tank is close to 
20 years old and probably will need replacing soon. Two big concerns I 
have are

- how long is the heat pump mechanism warrantied?
- how noisy is it?
A third question is how long does it take to get hot enough for a 
shower, if depleted? Assume 50F cold water.


In our case, the garage, where we have the HW tank, is under our living 
space and very close to our master bedroom. I don't want to hear 
humming through the floor.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:23:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters


Hi Lee etc
I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w 
instead of 4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the 
same btu h20 heating and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any 
climate as long as your underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE 
etc just takes their refrigerator compressors and puts them in 
backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just marketing speak for 
consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a AC unit 
outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO 
Smith and Siebel etc make also.

Have a renewable energy day
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Mark,

I've been considering a heat pump HW tank. My current tank is close to 
20 years old and probably will need replacing soon. Two big concerns I 
have are

- how long is the heat pump mechanism warrantied?
- how noisy is it?
A third question is how long does it take to get hot enough for a 
shower, if depleted? Assume 50F cold water.


In our case, the garage, where we have the HW tank, is under our living 
space and very close to our master bedroom. I don't want to hear humming 
through the floor.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
To: leeah...@earthlink.net
Cc: "Mark Hanson" ; ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: 28-Jul-18 8:23:13 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters


Hi Lee etc
I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w 
instead of 4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the 
same btu h20 heating and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any 
climate as long as your underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE 
etc just takes their refrigerator compressors and puts them in 
backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just marketing speak for 
consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a AC unit 
outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO Smith 
and Siebel etc make also.

Have a renewable energy day
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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[EVDL] Ot "heat pump" h20 heaters

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Hi Lee etc
I have a GE GeoSpring "heat pump" hot water heater that uses 600w instead of 
4500w resulting in about 1/4 the monthly kWh usage for the same btu h20 heating 
and dehumidifies the basement. It's used in any climate as long as your 
underground basement is 12x12 or larger.  GE etc just takes their refrigerator 
compressors and puts them in backwards so it's really not a heat pump, just 
marketing speak for consumers. You have to hook up the pee line like on your a 
AC unit outside or use a condensate pump. Typically a 3 year payback.  AO Smith 
and Siebel etc make also. 
Have a renewable energy day
Mark

Sent from my iPhone
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