Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
OK, Im an outlier... and wrong about this ... Generally, I shot from the hip with my original email. There was a lot of my historical perspective in my DIY EV project cars where 40 miles would be good enuf. But actually, as used/salvage EV's are now approaching the $10k class, and most have 80+ mile ranges, you are all right. I'd be very happy with an 80 mile pack now delivering 60... and using only 30 most days... And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game when even a zero mile EV will still be priced at more than $15k w/o battery just for expected amenities and since I would never buy a new car anyway, I can see why there is no market for a pure EV in that range for several more years. Though eventually, there will be a HUGE range and mix of EV's. The shortest is the commuter that uses her EV to drive from home to the park--ride. 10mi round trip per day. - Bob Could any of the current shorter range BEV options work for you, Bob? You will need the few miles of extra range... [cold,age,detours...] original email -- My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. Bob ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with it. Other than the 60 miles of range. Cost new was about $26k, including tax, title, and license. The state incentive is $2.5k and the income tax credit is $7.5k. So, I expect the total cost to be about $16k. The Ford Focus currently has an $8K manufacturer incentive, which brings it to $15K after state and federal credits, also. It’s a very nice car. -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 841 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150310/69939385/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
On 03/10/2015 09:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game when even a zero mile EV will still be priced at more than $15k w/o battery just for expected amenities and since I would never buy a new car anyway, I can see why there is no market for a pure EV in that range for several more years. Though eventually, there will be a HUGE range and mix of EV's. The shortest is the commuter that uses her EV to drive from home to the park--ride. 10mi round trip per day. - Bob I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with it. Other than the 60 miles of range. Cost new was about $26k, including tax, title, and license. The state incentive is $2.5k and the income tax credit is $7.5k. So, I expect the total cost to be about $16k. I'm about 6'4 and the interior is comfortable. It is fast enough for me. Especially with the rear seats folded, it has very generous cargo space. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
On Mar 10, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model $15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the manufacturers simply won't offer them until they can sell them at a profit at that price point. And, over time, those ranges will rise. Eventually, you won't be able to buy an EV from a major manufacturer with less than a couple hundred miles of range guaranteed for the term of the warrantee -- just as you can't buy a gas-powered vehicle with a tank smaller than about eight gallons. And those people with 40 MPG city cars with eight-gallon tanks...when was the last time they used more than five gallons before filling up? So isn't that extra three gallons of tank just a waste? Why not just give the cars two gallon tanks, since 80 miles is more than you need in a day for a commuter and you can top it off in just a minute at gas stations anywhere for the price of a pseudo-coffee beverage from Starbucks? Yes, home charging changes the equation with EVs...but only marginally. For virtually all car owners today, the downsides of a range just barely more than their typical daily usage far outweigh any possible convenience home charging could ever give. The _real_ winner is long-range EVs that you normally charge at home but can also get a quick charge from a rest stop. Day-to-day, you drive for free without ever having to go to a gas station and always start with a full tank...but you can also drive to grandma's on the weekends just as you would in a gas-powered vehicle today. That's what Tesla is working towards, and they're exactly right to do so. Now, if only their charging network wasn't proprietary and if they dropped all the control freak stuff Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150310/659cad6a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
How are the FFE battery packs holding up? On March 10, 2015 11:44:01 AM CDT, Bill Woodcock via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've had my imiev only a couple of months, but I'm very pleased with it. Other than the 60 miles of range. Cost new was about $26k, including tax, title, and license. The state incentive is $2.5k and the income tax credit is $7.5k. So, I expect the total cost to be about $16k. The Ford Focus currently has an $8K manufacturer incentive, which brings it to $15K after state and federal credits, also. It’s a very nice car. -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 841 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150310/69939385/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150310/0b840c02/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me... not)
On 3/10/15 9:02 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model $15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the We're under that 15k price now, for new EVs. Used LEAFs with more frills are also available now for under 15K. The Mitsubishi iMiev is 23000, minus 7500 federal tax refund for anyone who qualifies makes it 15,500, minus state incentives: In California, Colorado and Georgia it could be well under $15k this year. If two seats would suffice: The electric Smart car is a few thousand more, but it can be purchased for under 15K with incentives in some states (even less w/battery lease option, depending on how you account for that cost). Range wise, the next step for mid-priced EVs is a 200-ish range. Those BEV models are a few years out, so far including LEAF 2, Bolt, Model 3 and maybe a few others, none of which are likely to be under 15K. That would leave room for Mitsubishi and Smart to up their range and still hit a lower price point. Or for Nissan to differentiate the LEAF by range levels and have a lower priced model. Or for another player to step in. So we'll see... Cheers, -Jamie On 3/10/15 9:02 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: On Mar 10, 2015, at 7:11 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: And the other error in my thinking is that MFR's simply are not going to make a NO-FRILLS 40 mile EV this early in the game Actually...I rather suspect that, by the time we get to a true no-frills EV from major manufacturers -- your archetypal base-model $15k econobox -- they'll come with at least 100 mile ranges, and the manufacturers simply won't offer them until they can sell them at a profit at that price point. And, over time, those ranges will rise. Eventually, you won't be able to buy an EV from a major manufacturer with less than a couple hundred miles of range guaranteed for the term of the warrantee -- just as you can't buy a gas-powered vehicle with a tank smaller than about eight gallons. And those people with 40 MPG city cars with eight-gallon tanks...when was the last time they used more than five gallons before filling up? So isn't that extra three gallons of tank just a waste? Why not just give the cars two gallon tanks, since 80 miles is more than you need in a day for a commuter and you can top it off in just a minute at gas stations anywhere for the price of a pseudo-coffee beverage from Starbucks? Yes, home charging changes the equation with EVs...but only marginally. For virtually all car owners today, the downsides of a range just barely more than their typical daily usage far outweigh any possible convenience home charging could ever give. The _real_ winner is long-range EVs that you normally charge at home but can also get a quick charge from a rest stop. Day-to-day, you drive for free without ever having to go to a gas station and always start with a full tank...but you can also drive to grandma's on the weekends just as you would in a gas-powered vehicle today. That's what Tesla is working towards, and they're exactly right to do so. Now, if only their charging network wasn't proprietary and if they dropped all the control freak stuff Cheers, b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150310/659cad6a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. Bob -Original Message- Ok, we've seen both sides of the wasteful range question. Let me pose this: how close to saturation are we for the market of people who can afford and are willing to have an additional car just so they can buy a short range (50+ miles) for local driving. That is, how many people are left who will buy a short range EV with the justification they also have an ICE car for longer distances? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
On Mar 9, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. I think two points are worth raising. First, there are many people who are in your situation, including a great many who are but don't think they are. Second, there are also many people who would find your situation incomprehensible, and can't possibly imagine of what use a vehicle with only 40 miles of range could even hypothetically be. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. For those for whom your size fits, we should make sure that they know just how good a fit it is. But we'd be crazy to tell everybody else that your size fits them when it's not even remotely applicable. Any color you like, so long as it's black is not a way to gain market share. Also, as a side note, for basically all Tesla owners, $6k isn't really a noticeable fraction of a new vehicle purchase price; you can change the price of the car by that much either direction and it's only marginally going to impact sales. For people at the other end of the income scale, $6k might be their total purchase price of an used vehicle, so it doesn't get any more significant for that for them...but it's not even on the radar of somebody buying a maxed-out P85D. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
You will need the few miles of extra range when: 1) The car gets a number of years old, and the pack ages a bit. 2) Winter, bad weather, etc. 3) Construction/accident detour. 4) Unnoticed low pressure in tire. etc, etc, etc It is nice to have a little extra cushion in the total range. At 04:53 PM 3/9/2015, you wrote: My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. Bob -Original Message- Ok, we've seen both sides of the wasteful range question. Let me pose this: how close to saturation are we for the market of people who can afford and are willing to have an additional car just so they can buy a short range (50+ miles) for local driving. That is, how many people are left who will buy a short range EV with the justification they also have an ICE car for longer distances? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
On Mar 9, 2015, at 3:53 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. What about a used Smart ED or Fiat 500e? That should take care of the $6k price difference. Or, if you want a full-sized car, a used Ford Focus EV? I’ve got the Focus, and love it, and I also really like the Smart ED a lot. -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 841 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150309/927fe49c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
That's when I might plug in to a 120v outlet at work and double my range. bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Bill Dube via EV Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 7:02 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me) You will need the few miles of extra range when: 1) The car gets a number of years old, and the pack ages a bit. 2) Winter, bad weather, etc. 3) Construction/accident detour. 4) Unnoticed low pressure in tire. etc, etc, etc It is nice to have a little extra cushion in the total range. At 04:53 PM 3/9/2015, you wrote: My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. Bob -Original Message- Ok, we've seen both sides of the wasteful range question. Let me pose this: how close to saturation are we for the market of people who can afford and are willing to have an additional car just so they can buy a short range (50+ miles) for local driving. That is, how many people are left who will buy a short range EV with the justification they also have an ICE car for longer distances? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV range needs, future best options (40 for me)
Could any of the current shorter range BEV options work for you, Bob? The Mitsubishi iMiev or Smart ED are shorter range, lower priced BEV options (no superfluous ICE). Either may be worth considering for more affordable 30 mile commuter use, if available in your area. Or perhaps a used iMiev or Smart for even less. Both are below 80 miles range EPA, but still with a bit extra over 40 to handle the considerations Bill brought up. Or a used LEAF with less than the current model 84 miles EPA range but still sufficiently over 40, they are widely available and getting more affordable every day. Or a used Chevy Spark, if available in your area. Cheers, -Jamie On 3/9/15 5:02 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote: You will need the few miles of extra range when: 1) The car gets a number of years old, and the pack ages a bit. 2) Winter, bad weather, etc. 3) Construction/accident detour. 4) Unnoticed low pressure in tire. etc, etc, etc It is nice to have a little extra cushion in the total range. At 04:53 PM 3/9/2015, you wrote: My answer: I'm waiting for a 40 mile BEV. The Prius 12mi is too short and both it and the VOLT haul along an entirely not needed ICE (adding $10k to the price) (I have 2 other salvage Prius for all the distance I need). And my daily commute is 30 mi total. 40 miles for me. Unwilling to pay the extra $6k for the final 40 miles of the current crop of 80 mile BEV's that I'd never use. Bob -Original Message- Ok, we've seen both sides of the wasteful range question. Let me pose this: how close to saturation are we for the market of people who can afford and are willing to have an additional car just so they can buy a short range (50+ miles) for local driving. That is, how many people are left who will buy a short range EV with the justification they also have an ICE car for longer distances? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
