Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

The dump pack and the EV battery can be connected through a DC/DC converter
that only needs to handle the *difference* in voltage...


That's a great way to do it, once you have the time and money to do it 
right. The dropping resistor is just the "quick-n-dirty" way to do it 
one time to impress investors (to get the money so you *can* do it 
right). :-)


--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-09 Thread Cor van de Water via EV 
The dump pack and the EV battery can be connected through a DC/DC converter
that only needs to handle the *difference* in voltage, so bucking down a
little initially when the dump pack is a few volts higher than the EV and
boosting up a little towards the end when the dump pack is down and the
EV battery is climbing in voltage.
This means that only a *fraction* of the power needs to be handled by that
DC/DC converter and it can concentrate on supplying the desired current
into the EV pack, while also being super-efficient, since the normal
~90% efficiency of a good DC/DC will only affect the fraction of the power,
the majority of the transfer will be direct connect so 100% efficient minus
the discharge/charge efficiency of the batteries themselves.
This also means that if the dump pack only needs to do this once an hour,
the power requirement drops to ~20kW which means a standard 200A service
can handle 2 of these setups.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



-Original Message-
From: EV on behalf of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Sat 5/9/2015 10:45 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes
 
Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> The cells can charge in 5 minutes to 90% or better. These have been
> available for years.
> However, no one will pay for a charger large enough to charge a car in 5
> minutes. It would cost ten or twenty times more than the car.
> Such a charger would be as big as a sea container.

Well, not THAT bad. But still, pretty big and expensive!

If I had to do this (especially for a demonstration project), I'd use a 
second set of the same batteries as a "dump pack". Have the dump pack 
all charged and waiting. Parallel the two, perhaps with enough 
resistance to limit the current.

-- 
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-09 Thread Lee Hart via EV 

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

The cells can charge in 5 minutes to 90% or better. These have been
available for years.
However, no one will pay for a charger large enough to charge a car in 5
minutes. It would cost ten or twenty times more than the car.
Such a charger would be as big as a sea container.


Well, not THAT bad. But still, pretty big and expensive!

If I had to do this (especially for a demonstration project), I'd use a 
second set of the same batteries as a "dump pack". Have the dump pack 
all charged and waiting. Parallel the two, perhaps with enough 
resistance to limit the current.


--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-09 Thread Roland via EV 
   
Some time ago, I contacted a company in Europe that is making a combination 
supercapacitor that has a electrolyte in it like NiCads or KOH that has a slow 
discharge rate like a battery.  

 

These are very large units which are about 15 inches wide by about 30 inches 
long and 12 inches high.  They are design to be used in street buses which fill 
up the compartments below the passenger compartment.  The range was between 10 
to 20 miles, depending on the terrain and the number of stops.

 

Back at the bus barn, the battery pack was charge at about 300 amps at a very 
high voltage which took between 10 to 15 minutes.  

 

I got a quote from the company of how many modules it would take to replace 
thirty each 250 ah 6 volt batteries and to fit in the same area of the 
batteries.  

 

The factory cost was $39,000.00 for the modules which would gave only a 20 mile 
range and a charge time of about 5 to 10 minutes with a 12kw charger. 

 

For me, this was not cost effected. 

 

Roland


- Original Message - 

From: EVDL Administrator via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2015 9:31 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes



On 8 May 2015 at 19:11, len moskowitz via EV wrote:

> we'll take a car that has a zero charge and recharge its batteries to
> 100% capacity. 

Let's look at this a bit more closely.

First, let's consider how much power he needs to do this.  He says his car 
will go to "Beersheba and back."  From Tel Aviv, that's 140 miles, a pretty 
substantial range for anything but a Tesla.  So let's postulate that he's 
charging at the other end.  Now we have 70 miles per charge.  He might have 
a very efficient car that can manage 100-150 Wh/mi, but let's say it's a 
more typical 250 Wh/mi.

Thus he needs to put .25kWh/mi * 70mi == 17.5Wh into the EV's battery in 2 
minutes. That's a brisk 525kW at the battery.  Allowing for 85% charging 
efficiency, he needs an electrical service that can produce about 620kW.

Seems like a lot, eh?  Well, according to the Sierra Club, a typical US 
Walmart Supercenter uses over 28,000 kWh per day.  (Yeah, I know.  I had to 
pick my jaw up off the floor too.)

Assuming 24h operation, that's an average load of 1166kW.  I'm not an expert 
on such things, but I'd guess that it peaks at around twice that, maybe 
more.  Still, let's conservatively say that its peak capacity is 1500kW.  
Thus the electrical service that supplies that store could charge 2 of these 
cars at once.  

That's still a fair bit of power, but for a demo that's probably mainly 
meant to line up investors, it's quite do-able.

Second, and more importantly, I'm skeptical about the 100% claim.  Eighty 
percent I'd believe.  But unless he's changed electrochemistry in some 
pretty major ways, it's going to be really tough to charge that last 20% at 
525kW without things going bang.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-09 Thread Bill Dube via EV 
The cells can charge in 5 minutes to 90% or better. These have been 
available for years.
However, no one will pay for a charger large enough to charge a car in 5 
minutes. It would cost ten or twenty times more than the car.

Such a charger would be as big as a sea container.

Bill D.

On 5/9/2015 9:31 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 8 May 2015 at 19:11, len moskowitz via EV wrote:


we'll take a car that has a zero charge and recharge its batteries to
100% capacity.

Let's look at this a bit more closely.

First, let's consider how much power he needs to do this.  He says his car
will go to "Beersheba and back."  From Tel Aviv, that's 140 miles, a pretty
substantial range for anything but a Tesla.  So let's postulate that he's
charging at the other end.  Now we have 70 miles per charge.  He might have
a very efficient car that can manage 100-150 Wh/mi, but let's say it's a
more typical 250 Wh/mi.

Thus he needs to put .25kWh/mi * 70mi == 17.5Wh into the EV's battery in 2
minutes. That's a brisk 525kW at the battery.  Allowing for 85% charging
efficiency, he needs an electrical service that can produce about 620kW.

Seems like a lot, eh?  Well, according to the Sierra Club, a typical US
Walmart Supercenter uses over 28,000 kWh per day.  (Yeah, I know.  I had to
pick my jaw up off the floor too.)

Assuming 24h operation, that's an average load of 1166kW.  I'm not an expert
on such things, but I'd guess that it peaks at around twice that, maybe
more.  Still, let's conservatively say that its peak capacity is 1500kW.
Thus the electrical service that supplies that store could charge 2 of these
cars at once.

That's still a fair bit of power, but for a demo that's probably mainly
meant to line up investors, it's quite do-able.

Second, and more importantly, I'm skeptical about the 100% claim.  Eighty
percent I'd believe.  But unless he's changed electrochemistry in some
pretty major ways, it's going to be really tough to charge that last 20% at
525kW without things going bang.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-09 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV 
On 8 May 2015 at 19:11, len moskowitz via EV wrote:

> we'll take a car that has a zero charge and recharge its batteries to
> 100% capacity. 

Let's look at this a bit more closely.

First, let's consider how much power he needs to do this.  He says his car 
will go to "Beersheba and back."  From Tel Aviv, that's 140 miles, a pretty 
substantial range for anything but a Tesla.  So let's postulate that he's 
charging at the other end.  Now we have 70 miles per charge.  He might have 
a very efficient car that can manage 100-150 Wh/mi, but let's say it's a 
more typical 250 Wh/mi.

Thus he needs to put .25kWh/mi * 70mi == 17.5Wh into the EV's battery in 2 
minutes. That's a brisk 525kW at the battery.  Allowing for 85% charging 
efficiency, he needs an electrical service that can produce about 620kW.

Seems like a lot, eh?  Well, according to the Sierra Club, a typical US 
Walmart Supercenter uses over 28,000 kWh per day.  (Yeah, I know.  I had to 
pick my jaw up off the floor too.)

Assuming 24h operation, that's an average load of 1166kW.  I'm not an expert 
on such things, but I'd guess that it peaks at around twice that, maybe 
more.  Still, let's conservatively say that its peak capacity is 1500kW.  
Thus the electrical service that supplies that store could charge 2 of these 
cars at once.  

That's still a fair bit of power, but for a demo that's probably mainly 
meant to line up investors, it's quite do-able.

Second, and more importantly, I'm skeptical about the 100% claim.  Eighty 
percent I'd believe.  But unless he's changed electrochemistry in some 
pretty major ways, it's going to be really tough to charge that last 20% at 
525kW without things going bang.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-08 Thread Michael Ross via EV 
Yes, the operative phrase "promising within a year."


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

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Re: [EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-08 Thread Ben Goren via EV 
On May 8, 2015, at 4:11 PM, len moskowitz via EV  wrote:

> StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

There's some industrial-grade technobabble in that article. Be wonderful if 
there's some substance to the claims, of course, but I'm not holding my breath.

The racing crowd will certainly sit up and notice if it's true. A battery that 
can charge in five minutes can presumably discharge in five minutes, too.

The obvious questions are the usual of how you're going to move that much 
current and where it's going to come from. They're talking about something on 
the order of a megawatt, far more than any residential outlet could even 
theoretically handle. Call it 5,000 amps at 200 volts -- an hundred times the 
beefiest circuit you're likely to find in your house, and far more than what 
your utility provides you at the meter.

The only realistic option I can think of is to have two sets of batteries, one 
in the car and another in the charger. The batteries in the charger charge at 
whatever rate the wall outlet supports for however long it takes to fill them, 
and then they dump their charge into the batteries in the car at full speed. 
(And I hate to think of the connector you need to be able to not melt with that 
kind of current!)

All that applies in spades for public charging stations. You'd need a 
substation-grade power connection plus an huge bank of similar batteries. 
That's gonna be a damned expensive capital investment, and that cost will get 
passed on to those charging there, driving down demand and thus jacking the 
prices even further...hard to see how it could be profitable enough to make 
business sense.

b&
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[EVDL] StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

2015-05-08 Thread len moskowitz via EV 

StoreDot promises electric car that charges in 5 minutes

After developing the technology to recharge cellphones in seconds, 
Israeli start-up sets its sight on the EV market



http://www.timesofisrael.com/storedot-promises-electric-car-that-charges-in-5-minutes/




At last year’s Microsoft ThinkNext event in Tel Aviv, where new 
technologies by several Israeli start-ups go on display and get their 
“big break,” Dr. Doron Myersdorf, CEO of Israeli start-up StoreDot, 
wowed the crowd by promising within a year to develop a technology that 
could reduce the time needed to recharge cellphones from hours to 
minutes.



At ThinkNext 2015 Tuesday in Tel Aviv, Myersdorf, fulfilled that 
promise, displaying before a crowd of some 1,500 a phone as it recharged 
from zero power to 100% charged in about two minutes.



And while he was doing that, Myersdorf made another promise: “Next year, 
we will present a technology to recharge an electric car in five 
minutes.”




“By using an array of 7,000 cells, we’ll take a car that has a zero 
charge and recharge its batteries to 100% capacity. Then, while 
ThinkNext is going on, we’ll send it on a trip to Beersheba and have it 
come back at the end of the event,” Myersdorf said, to the cheers of an 
enthusiastic crowd.



[More]
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