Re: [EVDL] BMS questions

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Though, how will this setup works will depend on what kind of failure 
happens.


One possible configuration would be with Big Cable cross connects at one 
end of modules, and little cross connects between the 12 cells of the 
module:


A) Single Cell Opens - in either module - All pack current comes from 
one module  It runs down faster, though in the process of doing so, the 
other cross connected cells will end up trying to charge the ones from 
the discharging module, and all of the small connects will end up fried.


B) Single Cell Shorts - in BMS connected module, will set off alarm.  
Good.  In other module - once again cascading melted cross connect wires.


Without Big Cable cross connects - i.e Strings are only connected at the 
ends. (other than the little cross connects)


A2) Single Cell Opens - all current flows through other string. As 
string voltages diverge, little wires start frying.  If the open cell is 
on the BMS side, it will get detected once the relevant cross connect 
fries.  If on the non-BMS side, we're back to cascading melted cross 
connect wires.


B2) Single Cell Shorts - BMS side detects it quickly.  Non BMS side - 
cascading melted wires.


Thinking about the more-likely scenarios - different modules at 
different temperatures resulting in small differences.  I think that it 
still runs the chance of melting the cross connects during heavy 
acceleration.  Note that each "cell" in this case is a 200AH unit which 
is actually 20p.


On 10/9/2022 1:09 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
Well, it depends on how closely matched the packs are.  If they are 
good quality and closely matched, then you don't really need the cell 
interconnects between the 2 strings to be all that stiff.   Consider 
that most BMS balancing loads are 100ma or less, it's unlikely to have 
much more than that flowing between the 2 strings unless there is an 
actual failure.  I've used silicone-insulated 20awg wire for this on a 
pack before.   In the event of a short, the 20awg will fuse and the 
silicone will not burn and allow the conductors to melt through.  If 
you have an outright failure then this could happen, but otherwise the 
resistance of the 20awg interconnects will limit the cross-flow 
current during high pack draw, but allow them to still cross-balance.



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Re: [EVDL] BMS questions

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Well, it depends on how closely matched the packs are.  If they are good
quality and closely matched, then you don't really need the cell
interconnects between the 2 strings to be all that stiff.   Consider that
most BMS balancing loads are 100ma or less, it's unlikely to have much more
than that flowing between the 2 strings unless there is an actual failure.
I've used silicone-insulated 20awg wire for this on a pack before.   In the
event of a short, the 20awg will fuse and the silicone will not burn and
allow the conductors to melt through.  If you have an outright failure then
this could happen, but otherwise the resistance of the 20awg interconnects
will limit the cross-flow current during high pack draw, but allow them to
still cross-balance.

On Sun, Oct 9, 2022 at 9:51 AM John Lussmyer  wrote:

> I can get a cable in to do cell taps, but running a bunch of cross-module
> interconnects that can carry high current is unlikely.
> I'd need to use something like 16ga interconnects for between
> module/cells.  Then would I need to cross-connect with big cables at each
> module pair, as well as cable them in series?
> On 10/9/2022 9:23 AM, (-Phil-) wrote:
>
> If it's sealed with no cell taps, how can you build a proper BMS?
>
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Can't do in this case.  Each module is a sealed box of 12s.
>>
>> On 10/8/2022 5:55 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
>> > The best way to do a parallel setup is cell buddy-pairs if possible.
>> > There is no problem doing it this way.   Could also "cheat" with 2
>> > separate strings by tying the cell taps together as stiffly as
>> practical.
>> >
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Re: [EVDL] BMS questions

[John Lussmyer via EV]

I can get a cable in to do cell taps, but running a bunch of 
cross-module interconnects that can carry high current is unlikely.
I'd need to use something like 16ga interconnects for between 
module/cells.  Then would I need to cross-connect with big cables at 
each module pair, as well as cable them in series?


On 10/9/2022 9:23 AM, (-Phil-) wrote:

If it's sealed with no cell taps, how can you build a proper BMS?

On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
 wrote:


Can't do in this case.  Each module is a sealed box of 12s.

On 10/8/2022 5:55 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> The best way to do a parallel setup is cell buddy-pairs if
possible.
> There is no problem doing it this way.   Could also "cheat" with 2
> separate strings by tying the cell taps together as stiffly as
practical.
>
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Re: [EVDL] BMS questions

[(-Phil-) via EV]

If it's sealed with no cell taps, how can you build a proper BMS?

On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 8:09 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> Can't do in this case.  Each module is a sealed box of 12s.
>
> On 10/8/2022 5:55 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
> > The best way to do a parallel setup is cell buddy-pairs if possible.
> > There is no problem doing it this way.   Could also "cheat" with 2
> > separate strings by tying the cell taps together as stiffly as practical.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] BMS questions

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Can't do in this case.  Each module is a sealed box of 12s.

On 10/8/2022 5:55 PM, (-Phil-) wrote:
The best way to do a parallel setup is cell buddy-pairs if possible.  
There is no problem doing it this way.   Could also "cheat" with 2 
separate strings by tying the cell taps together as stiffly as practical.



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Re: [EVDL] BMS questions

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The best way to do a parallel setup is cell buddy-pairs if possible.  There
is no problem doing it this way.   Could also "cheat" with 2 separate
strings by tying the cell taps together as stiffly as practical.

On Sat, Oct 8, 2022 at 4:57 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> I've been looking into both Thunderstruck and Orion BMS docs.
> One interesting doc is from Orion - describing the possible issues with
> parallel strings (which I will have), and some possible mitigation
> strategies.
> https://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/parallel_strings.pdf
> I'm thinking about the one on page 14 - Paralleled strings with two
> separate DC busses
> Since I'll have 2 strings, this would entail a couple more contactors
> and some BIG diodes.
> a pair of 300A+ ones for the discharge side, and a pair of 50A ones on
> the charge side.  (probably about $100 of diodes from digikey)
>
> Though, I'm not sure i'd use contactors on the charger side, instead I'd
> just have it shut the charger off and notify me that it happened. (hmm,
> might allow a single string to shut off - but if the 2nd string does it
> would shut the charger down instead.)
>
> An Orion (pair) could shutdown each side independently, the
> Thunderstruck can probably only shutdown one side.
>
> Any thoughts on either system, or the parallel string setup?
>
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[EVDL] BMS questions

[John Lussmyer via EV]

I've been looking into both Thunderstruck and Orion BMS docs.
One interesting doc is from Orion - describing the possible issues with 
parallel strings (which I will have), and some possible mitigation 
strategies.

https://www.orionbms.com/manuals/pdf/parallel_strings.pdf
I'm thinking about the one on page 14 - Paralleled strings with two 
separate DC busses
Since I'll have 2 strings, this would entail a couple more contactors 
and some BIG diodes.
a pair of 300A+ ones for the discharge side, and a pair of 50A ones on 
the charge side.  (probably about $100 of diodes from digikey)


Though, I'm not sure i'd use contactors on the charger side, instead I'd 
just have it shut the charger off and notify me that it happened. (hmm, 
might allow a single string to shut off - but if the 2nd string does it 
would shut the charger down instead.)


An Orion (pair) could shutdown each side independently, the 
Thunderstruck can probably only shutdown one side.


Any thoughts on either system, or the parallel string setup?

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[EVDL] BMS question

[EV List Lackey via EV]

The following inquiry is reposted from the Solectria EV discussion list.  
I'll forward any responses back to that list.  Thanks!

> Looks like my CALB cells are getting close to the end of their lives. The
> capacities have been changing quite a bit over the past several months.
> The car itself is still doing great so I´m considering the purchase of a
> new battery pack. I´ve run my car for the past 9-10 years without using a
> BMS and until these recent cell variations it has been pretty much
> uneventful. If I decide to replace the pack I think I might install a BMS
> just to be able to keep a closer eye on things. So I´m looking for
> suggestions. What I´d like from a BMS is cell monitoring, reliability and
> simplicity. Something easy to  install and use. Thanks in advance.  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 There's a knob called "brightness," but it doesn't work. 

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[EVDL] BMS recommendations

[MacWrench via EV]

Hi All,

I've been lurking in the background for some time now,
occasionally responding since my background is that of a mechanic (auto
tech) with extensive experience in electrical and fuel injection systems.
I "retired" about 15 years back and went to work part time for Maine
Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association . MOFGA has
been supportive of my electrical interests and I have converted 2
cultivating tractors (lead acid batteries) and a Chev S-10 (prismatic
lithium cells 100 amp hour) to battery power. And built from scratch a
small, 2 tracked woods vehicle using a powered wheel chair drive system
(4, 7 cell lithium polimer packs in parallel with very basic bms). All
simple dc systems, functional for short trips and farm work.

2
years ago, MOFGA received a donation of a 1940's vintage tractor (Ford
9-N) that had been converted to battery power, again a simple dc
system.  Since that tractor was converted by a friend who, as a
mechanical engineer only made it functional enough to prove the point, it
was too rough and downright dangerous for general use. The family asked
specifically for me to "clean it up". For instance, it had 10, 12v
batteries in series charged by a grid charger consisting of 4 heavy diodes
screwed to a piece of board, 120ac in and 120dc out. Sorry I didn't take
some before pics.

I now have the tractor running on 8 LG Chem
16 cell packs configured to 120v, charging with an Elcon 5000 configured
by Elcon for that battery, and NO BMS. Scares the hell out of me knowing
how quickly that sort of battery can go into "thermal runaway" but again,
needed to prove the concept and get it into public use. I have spent 2
hours (all I could stand) on that machine running a bush hog with no
appreciable drop in battery voltage so I know it is capable of serious
work.

I have looked about for a BMS for this battery pack and
found the following  Is
this the best I can do for this battery pack? Could someone recommend a
better system? Mostly it needs to perform the basics, top balance cells,
monitor temp, provide LVC and HVC for the charger.

Thanks for
your comments and advice.

John
Unity ME
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[EVDL] BMS boards

[John Lussmyer via EV]

I've been testing several different versions of the little 18650 BMS boards.  I 
purchased these from Amazon, as I wanted to do some testing ASAP.  What you 
order, may or may not be what you actually receive.
So far, the tests are pretty disappointing.
Most of the boards that SAY they have Balance capability do.
Several of the boards detect under-voltage at 2.5v, a few don't detect under 
voltage at all.
NONE of the boards properly detect an over-voltage condition.

I'm using several of my cells, and a variable power supply as the "top" cell.  
This lets me easily vary the cell voltage for testing.
I put a 100ma load on the discharge line to see if the detect circuit works.

Has anyone successfully used these cheap little boards?  have you checked to 
see if they detect over-voltage conditions?
In my case, I'm just looking to use them as balance and over/under detect.  NOT 
switching the full charge/discharge currently like they are designed to do.  
I'd like to use that feature to just control a "fault detect" signal that I can 
make use of elsewhere.
--
Bobcats and Cougars, oh my!  http://john.casadelgato.com/Pets
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Re: [EVDL] BMS question

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

I was just looking into this recently.  There appear to be two types of cheap 
BMS systems, ones that just equalize when the batteries near full charge (put a 
small load, 40-70mv, on cells when they get over 4.1V) and the other type is 
typically called an "Active Balancer" it runs continuously and shuffles around 
charges when the cells differ by more than 10mv, many of these can move up to 
1-2Amps

I think the active ones sound like a better solution, although if you have a 
well matched series of cells a top balancer might be adequate.

Here is an example of an active balancer: 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002950596126.html
I have no idea how reliable these are, but at that price it's cheap enough to 
buy and test.
I also like that this particular model has a switch where you can disable the 
balancer action if the cell voltage drops below 3V, that way your balancer 
won't drain a dead battery.
Note: the above model does NOT handle over charge or over discharge.

That may not be an issue if your battery charger can limit it's max voltage and 
if your motor controller can automatically shut off when battery voltage drops 
below a set level.

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

October 6, 2021 4:25 PM, "steve sawtelle via EV"  wrote:

> I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.
> 
> About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
> running, but other
> things got in the way and I am abandoning the project. The rolling chassis 
> will get back it's ICE
> and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim Husted motor and the controls. I 
> have a new endeavor now -
> a small cruising sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling 
> motor as the backup to
> the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries for 
> power. My batteries
> have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 3.25V. I need to cycle 
> them to see if they
> are still viable of course. If they are, what BMS is recommended for them 
> now? I did a bit of
> searching but didn't see much.
> 
> -steve
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Re: [EVDL] BMS question

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

For just a few batteries, I'd look at what the Radio Control guys use.    I 
think they have built in BMS and some are programmable.Being as you are only 
going to have 4 (for 12 volt trolling), I think you could get a complete 
solution cheap.    I think they use differentterminology like "4S" for 4 in 
series.  

Larry

p.s.   From experience.   Get a 50amp or above trolling motor.    Small ones 
are "okay" in light winds, but if you've got to 
buck a 20mph wind, you'd be much happier with a larger one when it's blowing.   

yes it's ev blasphemy but I'd also look at a metal pair of oarlocks and 
moderately decent 2-part oars. Always good to have several power sourcesif 
you get stuck in a shipping channel with no wind.  You don't have to do 
anything fancy with a sliding seat.  You can row standing up or sitting on a 
cooler or anything temporary.   It's a "LOT" better than a canoe paddle.    
You may find it's even better than thetrolling motor as you can save the 
electricity for lights and radio and gps. Expect only about 2 knots rowing.

 

On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 2:57:46 PM PDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Thanks all for the advise and ideas.

I joined the Electricboats list - excellent resource! There is also a PlugBoats 
website/journal which looks good.

I borrowed our electronic load from work and will cycle a few batteries to see 
what I have. Good to know it may take a few cycles to see where they are at. 

I also found an excellent resource on Lithium batteries on boats:

https://nordkyndesign.com/category/marine-engineering/electrical/lithium-battery-systems/

Very thoughtful look at what it takes to make a good BMS. It's not easy. I'm 
hoping to do slow charge from a small solar panel and use the batteries weekly. 
It looks like it may be a bit hard to make that work really well. Well, part of 
why I do things like this is to learn

-steve

    On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 11:15:12 AM EDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I don't know anything about BMS's but Lithium Iron Phosphate cells can 
experience capacity fade even if they have good voltage. I had some cells that 
sat around for a year and a half and showed good voltage but when I cycles them 
they only had 45Ah out of 100Ah they started with. I thought I ruined them but 
I got back 100% of the capacity after the 5th cycle so just note you may need 
to cycle more than once.

    On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 8:11:11 AM CDT, Rod Hower via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  There are great resources for electric powered sail boats at 
electricbo...@groups.io https://groups.io/g/electricboats 
    On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 07:25:44 PM EDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.

About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
running, but other things got in the way and I am abandoning the project.  The 
rolling chassis will get back it's ICE and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim 
Husted motor and the controls. I have a new endeavor now - a small cruising 
sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling motor as the backup 
to the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries 
for power. My batteries have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 
3.25V. I need to cycle them to see if they are still viable of course. If they 
are, what BMS is recommended for them now? I did a  bit of searching but didn't 
see much.

-steve
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Re: [EVDL] BMS question

[steve sawtelle via EV]

 Thanks all for the advise and ideas.

I joined the Electricboats list - excellent resource! There is also a PlugBoats 
website/journal which looks good.

I borrowed our electronic load from work and will cycle a few batteries to see 
what I have. Good to know it may take a few cycles to see where they are at. 

I also found an excellent resource on Lithium batteries on boats:

https://nordkyndesign.com/category/marine-engineering/electrical/lithium-battery-systems/

Very thoughtful look at what it takes to make a good BMS. It's not easy. I'm 
hoping to do slow charge from a small solar panel and use the batteries weekly. 
It looks like it may be a bit hard to make that work really well. Well, part of 
why I do things like this is to learn

-steve

 On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 11:15:12 AM EDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I don't know anything about BMS's but Lithium Iron Phosphate cells can 
experience capacity fade even if they have good voltage. I had some cells that 
sat around for a year and a half and showed good voltage but when I cycles them 
they only had 45Ah out of 100Ah they started with. I thought I ruined them but 
I got back 100% of the capacity after the 5th cycle so just note you may need 
to cycle more than once.

    On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 8:11:11 AM CDT, Rod Hower via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  There are great resources for electric powered sail boats at 
electricbo...@groups.io https://groups.io/g/electricboats 
    On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 07:25:44 PM EDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.

About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
running, but other things got in the way and I am abandoning the project.  The 
rolling chassis will get back it's ICE and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim 
Husted motor and the controls. I have a new endeavor now - a small cruising 
sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling motor as the backup 
to the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries 
for power. My batteries have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 
3.25V. I need to cycle them to see if they are still viable of course. If they 
are, what BMS is recommended for them now? I did a  bit of searching but didn't 
see much.

-steve
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Re: [EVDL] BMS question

[paul dove via EV]

 I don't know anything about BMS's but Lithium Iron Phosphate cells can 
experience capacity fade even if they have good voltage. I had some cells that 
sat around for a year and a half and showed good voltage but when I cycles them 
they only had 45Ah out of 100Ah they started with. I thought I ruined them but 
I got back 100% of the capacity after the 5th cycle so just note you may need 
to cycle more than once.

On Thursday, October 7, 2021, 8:11:11 AM CDT, Rod Hower via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  There are great resources for electric powered sail boats at 
electricbo...@groups.io https://groups.io/g/electricboats 
    On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 07:25:44 PM EDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.

About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
running, but other things got in the way and I am abandoning the project.  The 
rolling chassis will get back it's ICE and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim 
Husted motor and the controls. I have a new endeavor now - a small cruising 
sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling motor as the backup 
to the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries 
for power. My batteries have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 
3.25V. I need to cycle them to see if they are still viable of course. If they 
are, what BMS is recommended for them now? I did a  bit of searching but didn't 
see much.

-steve
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Re: [EVDL] BMS question

[Rod Hower via EV]

 There are great resources for electric powered sail boats at 
electricbo...@groups.io https://groups.io/g/electricboats 
On Wednesday, October 6, 2021, 07:25:44 PM EDT, steve sawtelle via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.

About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
running, but other things got in the way and I am abandoning the project.  The 
rolling chassis will get back it's ICE and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim 
Husted motor and the controls. I have a new endeavor now - a small cruising 
sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling motor as the backup 
to the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries 
for power. My batteries have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 
3.25V. I need to cycle them to see if they are still viable of course. If they 
are, what BMS is recommended for them now? I did a  bit of searching but didn't 
see much.

-steve
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[EVDL] BMS question

[steve sawtelle via EV]

I guess this may qualify as an old-school question now.

About 12 years ago I built an electric motorcycle. I actually had it up and 
running, but other things got in the way and I am abandoning the project.  The 
rolling chassis will get back it's ICE and I need to find a home for the 7" Jim 
Husted motor and the controls. I have a new endeavor now - a small cruising 
sailboat (CLC Pocketship). I'm thinking of using a trolling motor as the backup 
to the sails and I hope to repurpose some of my 100 A-H Thundersky batteries 
for power. My batteries have been sitting for 10 years but still are at around 
3.25V. I need to cycle them to see if they are still viable of course. If they 
are, what BMS is recommended for them now? I did a  bit of searching but didn't 
see much.

-steve
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Re: [EVDL] BMS cell pairs

[Paul Compton via EV]

Many of the BMS systems out there are using chips designed for Laptop
and power tool packs where the BMS disconnects the pack from the load
or charger to prevent high/low cell voltage or overcurrent. Due to
their low cost, they have been 'beefed up' for high current use that
is not really appropriate. Having your battery disconnect under load,
or particularly under regen, will void the warranty on most
controllers. The BMS should signal the controller or charger to reduce
current.

I've been playing around with one of the cheap BMS units and modifying
it for external interfacing.
https://youtu.be/1N3kWStCo-s

On Fri, 22 May 2020 at 06:04, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
>
> It seems most battery pack builds use one bms per cell row.  That is two or 
> three batteries in parallel using one BMS.  If I am using A123 batteries that 
> could be up to 120amps for 2 in parallel. Must the BMS be rated for the full 
> 120 or would I go by the rated amps of the controller which in my case is 
> 40amps? How many batteries in parallel can I safely put on one BMS? Any 
> recommendations for reliable BMS? Lawrence Rhodes
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-- 
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www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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[EVDL] BMS cell pairs

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

It seems most battery pack builds use one bms per cell row.  That is two or 
three batteries in parallel using one BMS.  If I am using A123 batteries that 
could be up to 120amps for 2 in parallel. Must the BMS be rated for the full 
120 or would I go by the rated amps of the controller which in my case is 
40amps? How many batteries in parallel can I safely put on one BMS? Any 
recommendations for reliable BMS? Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] BMS Master Controller

[bvgandhi via EV]

Hi Lee,

Yes you are right, I was looking at commercially available BMS controllers
such as Elithion and I thought that this is good but can do with more
functionality such as power prediction for better energy management. I did
think about the failure modes. So if you have a M/S topology and
slaves have adequate protection circuitry and fault detection IC's installed
as well as a high functional Master with added protection for cell current
limits wouldn't that make it safety critical. I can then have the slaves as
a part of the pack and the master outside the pack. The BMS essentially
serves as a powertrain controller and interfaces with the VCU. So in that
sense it is not necessarily a universal controller but does serve more
functions. I think the universal controller that you are talking about is
something like what Porsche tried to do :
file:///C:/Users/bgandhi/AppData/Local/Microsoft/Windows/Temporary%20Internet%20Files/Content.Outlook/62KQ3514/Powertrain%20Manager%20for%20Electric%20and%20Hybrid-Electric%20Vehicles.pdf


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Re: [EVDL] BMS Master Controller

[Lee Hart via EV]

bvgandhi via EV wrote:

Thanks for sharing that Lee, I was trying to understand from the perspective
of a heavy duty application something like a class 5 truck. I was wondering
, for a pure EV application will an OEM use a Master Controller and expand
it to encompass some of the major VCU functions or would they build a
simpler BMS with a more sophisticated VCU.

I was thinking that a more sophisticated BMS would allow for better control
of the pack and the VCU can perform auxiliary functions.


That's true; there are no doubt many functions that might be of some 
benefit. Data logging, temperature monitoring and control (fans, 
heaters), estimating range and charging time, etc.


But keep in mind that the BMS for lithium is a safety critical function! 
It HAS to keep working despite damage, and MUST not fail in an unsafe 
manner. It is much harder to design such systems. A classic mistake is 
not to consider failures, or their consequences.


My preference is not to use an all-encompassing universal controller, 
where a single point of failure takes down the entire system. Also, 
avoid complexity; the more parts, the harder it is to make it reliable.


I prefer a KISS design (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Divide up the task 
between separate, independent, redundant systems. If one fails, the 
others still work; so it fails gracefully. For example, you might lose 
the ability to read individual cell voltages when that controller fails; 
but the overvoltage and undervoltage systems still work.

--
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] BMS Master Controller

[bvgandhi via EV]

Thanks for sharing that Lee, I was trying to understand from the perspective
of a heavy duty application something like a class 5 truck. I was wondering
, for a pure EV application will an OEM use a Master Controller and expand
it to encompass some of the major VCU functions or would they build a
simpler BMS with a more sophisticated VCU. 

I was thinking that a more sophisticated BMS would allow for better control
of the pack and the VCU can perform auxiliary functions. 


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Re: [EVDL] BMS Master Controller

[Lee Hart via EV]

bvgandhi via EV  wrote:
>> For a BMS of a large battery pack for an automotive application can
>> I have all my slave boards connected to the cells and part of the
>> pack and a master controller outside the battery pack where I can
>> integrate some other control functionality as well?

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Sure, as long as the communication to the slave boards is isolated,
preferably on the slave board itself.
That way you just bring 12v plus communication bus to each slave. Almost
every commercial bms works this way. OEM bms typically uses CAN bus.


I took a slightly different approach in my BMS. I route a (fused) wire 
from each cell "+" terminal to a cental relay board. The relay board 
selects two wires (the + and - of the cell to be monitored), and routes 
them to a central controller. The controller has the optical isolation. 
That way, only *one* isolator is needed, rather than one per cell.


This is how the Toyota Prius BMS works as well. Just a thin wire from 
each cell to the central BMS board. The isolation is done on the central 
board.


--
There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a
little worse and sell a little cheaper. Those who consider price
alone are that person's lawful prey. -- John Ruskin
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] BMS Master Controller

[bvgandhi via EV]

For a BMS of a large battery pack for an automotive application can I have
all my slave boards connected to the cells and part of the pack and a master
controller outside the battery pack where I can integrate some other control
functionality as well ?

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Re: [EVDL] BMS by Battery Manufacturers

[paul dove via EV]

This is the one they sell with Bestgo batteries but I didn't buy it.
http://www.ligoo.cn/en/about.asp?class_id=20071001
  From: bvgandhi via EV 
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: bvgandhi 
 Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 11:12 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] BMS by Battery Manufacturers
   
Hi,

Does anyone here have any experience using BMS developed by a battery
manufacturer such as those provided by A123, LG Chem etc. Davide Andrea the
founder of Elithion in his book on BMS design has mentioned that these guys
try to rip you off. Anyone here has any opinion or perspective to offer ?

Thanks,
Bhavesh

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[EVDL] BMS by Battery Manufacturers

[bvgandhi via EV]

Hi,

Does anyone here have any experience using BMS developed by a battery
manufacturer such as those provided by A123, LG Chem etc. Davide Andrea the
founder of Elithion in his book on BMS design has mentioned that these guys
try to rip you off. Anyone here has any opinion or perspective to offer ?

Thanks,
Bhavesh

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Re: [EVDL] BMS Sensor Selection

[bvgandhi via EV]

Hi Lee,

Thanks for your insightful reply. I am trying to develop  a BMS which can
interact with my ADAS system controller. So I am trying to implement a power
prediction capability. I wanted to ask you if you think can chalk out a
criteria which I can use for selecting my temperature sensor for the BMS ?

Thanks,
Bhavesh

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Re: [EVDL] BMS Sensor Selection

[Lee Hart via EV]

bvgandhi via EV wrote:

Hi,

I was trying to develop a BMS on my own. While I used the Elithion website
to guide me through the ASIC selection for my slave board I am not sure as
to how do I select my temperature and voltage sensor for an efficient
circuit design. I am a mechanical engineer by vocation so I would really
appreciate an electrical engineering perspective.


This is a problem I've put a lot of effort into as well. I've done a 
number of BMS designs over the years, both for myself and for clients. 
Nothing is perfect, but I like mine better than the crappy Chinese 
versions, or overly complex auto company ones.


It's not a simple problem. It needs to be reliable, as you're going to 
duplicate the circuit perhaps 100 times. It also has to keep working for 
years, in the harsh automotive environment. This is what knocks out the 
cheap ones.


It also needs to be fail-safe. Failure modes cannot lead to dangerous 
conditions that murder batteries, or even worse, start fires! This is a 
hidden danger with many poorly designed BMS. This is what gives BMS a 
bad rep, and leads many to go with *no* BMS rather than a bad one.


It also needs to be affordable. People simply won't pay for reliability 
and safety -- when they don't know what they're doing, they go for 
"cheap" as their #1 criteria.


I know it is fashionable to use computers for everything. But I think 
this is a case where KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is desirable. 
Computers need programming; and virtually every program has bugs. 
Computers also need power, which can run down the cells from just 
sitting. And they "crash" in unpredictable ways. So I would rather have 
the circuit-per-cell not depends on a microcomputer.


Fundamentally, there are only a few things that a BMS must do:

1. Generate an alarm if a cell gets low.
2. Reduce power or shut down the controller if a cell gets too low.
3. Generate an alarm if a cell gets too high.
4. Reduce power or shut down the charger if a cell gets too high.

If this is all you want, I've designed several dirt-simple BMS. These 
were inspired by Cedric Lynch's minimalist BMS. Basically, you have a 
tiny circuit across each cell. It contains a half dozen parts that cost 
about 50 cents total, to perform as follows:


1. A zener diode to shunt excess charging current when cell voltage 
exceeds its threshold. The shunt current is low, so the cells had better 
be well balanced to begin with, and it takes a long time to balance at 
the end of a charge cycle.

2. An LED that lights to show when the zener is shunting current.
3. An optocoupler, whose output turns on when shunting current. The 
output side of all these optos are in parallel, so when any one turns 
on, it activates your dash warning light and cuts back your charger.
4. Another optocoupler that is normally on when the cell voltage is 
above your "low" threshold.  Their outputs are all in series, so any one 
turning off breaks the chain, to activate your dash warning light and 
cut back your controller.


If you also want it to Balance (and not just monitor), then the BMS 
needs a way to individually charge and/or discharge a single cell, to 
bring it back into balance with the rest. This adds:


5. A way to switch a load across an individual cell, to slow down its 
charging. This is the cheapest, and so most popular approach.
6. A way to charge an individual cell, so speed up its charging. This is 
harder, but more efficient and versatile (lets you commission a new 
pack, or balance a mismatched pack).


Then, there are nice-to-have features if you're more technically 
inclined and want to know what is going on "under the hood".


7. A way to read the voltage of each cell. This provides a maintenance 
check, to insure that things are working as intended.


8. A way to measure the temperature of each cell, or at least groups of 
cells, so you don't try to use them if the temperature is out of spec.


My own conclusion is that the best approach to provide these features is 
to have one relay per cell. The relay routes the voltage of that cell to 
a central controller, which can measure its voltage, charge, and 
discharge the cell as appropriate.


Then you can put a lot more effort into making the central controller 
accurate, reliable, and fail-safe.


This is what I've done with my Battery Balancer 
. It's a home-made prototype that I 
built for myself as a research tool to explore the idea. It's therefore 
expensive, as I don't have the resources to perfect or commercialize it 
(and I doubt there is any market). But it's a starting point if others 
want to help!


--
Problems that go away by themselves will be back with friends.

Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] BMS Sensor Selection

[bvgandhi via EV]

Hi,

I was trying to develop a BMS on my own. While I used the Elithion website
to guide me through the ASIC selection for my slave board I am not sure as
to how do I select my temperature and voltage sensor for an efficient
circuit design. I am a mechanical engineer by vocation so I would really
appreciate an electrical engineering perspective. 

Thanks,


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Re: [EVDL] BMS on Volt modules, Lots of 12v lithium batteries available.

[jerry freedomev via EV]

    Hi Dan and All,    A solar boat is likely in my future too. 
 The voltage are normal for that type of cell, 49.5vdc top and 36 though under 
39vdc, there is little energy left as it drops off a cliff.   So 
I'm using 39vdc as my lower cutoff though manual, it can be done by the HB404 
too as has 2 programable if harder than hell relay drivers.   I 
just use power supplies set to 49.5vdc for charging now and using a MPJA 
100vdc, 100amp wthr meter to just keep track.   Steve has a good 
point but something anyone should be thinking about when designing a system 
what might happen.  Running it off  48vdc means both can go down together too. 
But each system is different.  I'm not running any BMS as most 
don't as too much an expensive PITA.  And the quality of the cells seem to not 
be needed at first.  After it ages could be another matter.  There 
are some interesting low cost bike BMS chips that could work at 48vdc.  
   A 4kwh module is 2 48vdc sections,  5 kwh has 2 48vdc and a 12vdc sections, 
a 7 kwh has a 12vdc and 3 48vdc sections though that has changed in recent 
packs.  But few of them are out there yet, most being 2012-2014 model yrs.  
   And heavy at 25lbs./kwh.  But cheap, powerful. On a boat I'd 
keep it at 48vdc for shock hazard unless no other choice .  If I 
were you charging from the grid I'd just buy a settable  powersupply for hands 
off and use your lead chargers as bulk charging with a timer doing most of it, 
and the PS finishing it off is how I'm , most are doing it.   I'm 
looking for surplus/cheap 1-4kw 48vdc power supplies myself and exactly where 
one can find  used 48vdc 2kw and up UPS systems? .  
 Jerry Dycus

  From: Dan Baker via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Cc: Dan Baker 
 Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2018 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lots of 12v lithium batteries available.
   
This a great relevant thread for me.  I'm interested in going from Lead to
Lithium on my boat and I believe Volt cells are likely the most available
and least expensive to me.  The Volt cells appear to have different charge
points than most Lithium so the HB404 looks like a great solution.  Jerry,
do you just use one HB404/ contactor  for a string of cells that add up to
120v when charged? No other BMS? I'm looking at doing 96v setup, doubling
my current 48v setup.  I was thinking 2 x 48v packs, 2 HB404s and
contactors and using 2 x 48v chargers that I already own.  Appreciate any
advice on this, excited to switch to Lithium but nervous of destroying a
set in the learning stage lol.

Cheers
Dan

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 1:36 PM Len Moskowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Thanks Jerry, but I'd like to keep the lead-acid form factor and use the
> existing charger.
>
> Len M.
>
> -
> On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 12:30 PM, jerry freedomev wrote:
>
>
>
>    Hi Len and All,
>            2  5kwh,  120vdc nom  Volt modules would by far be the best,
> lowest cost solution.  And for charging just add an HB404 wthr meter and
> a contactor to cut the voltage off at fully charged using your present
> charger likely.
>            Each take about the same space as 2.5 of your 12vdc lead
> batteries.  And cost $1500-$2300 buying modules, not much more than
> lead, less than premium lead.
>            Since 2 modules will put out 2k amps and weigh much less,
> lead EVs  I've sold them for nicely  increase both range and pickup even
> with the same rated kwh.  And one can add another module or 2 for more
> range.
>              My rebuild of my EV trike pickup into the subcar it was
> suppose to be  I'll put 2 5kwh modules in it for about 120 mile range.
> Could put in 250 miles worth.
>                      Jerry Dycus
>
>
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[EVDL] Bms recommendations

[Steve Clunn via EV]

Mini BMS there's no longer making their BMS headboards or sell boards. I
looked on the eBay for BMS's and found one that could send information to
an Android phone about the cells voltage's along with voltage of whole pack
average voltage and current. They seem to be made for bicycles but they did
have a 30 cell model. They can be programmed for different cutoff voltages
and different amounts of cells. To control the shut-off when charging or
discharging they use a bank of mosfets so the amount of power these
transitions can handle is not up to what a car or a golf cart needs. I made
a little relay board that uses their control to turn the relay off and on
and have use them in a few battery packs for cars. They don't have a lot of
balancing capability I believe 60 milliamps is the rating of current. The
app for the telephone shows individual cell voltages and also data logs
each individual cell voltage along with the average voltage of the whole
pack and the charge discharge current. I bought mine from eBay for $100 and
then contacted the original supplier who says if I buy 10 I can get a
reduced price. I did a short YouTube video of one of these units hooked up
to some cells that I'm charging from my solar panels. There are a few other
videos on YouTube of this model but not a lot of information nor is there
much information from the company , xiaoxiang . They say nothing of the
data logging  capability . https://youtu.be/Yj7a1wzpQGQ if this doesn't
work you can just YouTube for my name Steve clunn. We have a few here now
and I'm going to order more could use some orders to help fatten up the
order if anyone is interested contact me offline from
www.Greenshedconversions.com  Steve Clunn
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Re: [EVDL] BMS recommendation/ experiences?

[Marco Gaxiola via EV]

Hi Philip,

I talked to Mark from Thunderstruck some months ago about their BMS, it is
a really nice equipment and very accessible on price. But I was unable to
use it since it was on its end of development stage by then.  But as
reference, I can 100% recommend their EVCC (Charge controller) which was
designed by the same team, if this helps.

On the other hand, I can tell Orion BMS is one of the best battery
management systems I've use so far. It is quite complicated to wire and
install the first time (I've installed several of them) but is Pro device,
really close to a car OEM BMS. And just for reference, I uploaded a 32min
YouTube video for a friend of the main wirings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jj5kWc4v6A=2s   It's on Spanish, but if
that helps, great!

Marco Gaxiola

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Philip Rash via EV 
wrote:

> Hello, I've been driving my Dakota truck EV conversion for over 7 years,
> and finally pulled the plug & bought a lithium battery pack. (46 CALB
> cells, which should arrive this week!). Now I'm looking at BMS's, and am
> curious if anyone has any experience with the Thunderstruck BMS? (
> http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/bms/ ). Positive/ negative experiences
> from
> anyone who's used it would be appreciated; I'm also considering Lithiumate
> or Orion, but those seem quite a bit pricier. Thanks!
> Philip
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[EVDL] BMS recommendation/ experiences?

[Philip Rash via EV]

Hello, I've been driving my Dakota truck EV conversion for over 7 years,
and finally pulled the plug & bought a lithium battery pack. (46 CALB
cells, which should arrive this week!). Now I'm looking at BMS's, and am
curious if anyone has any experience with the Thunderstruck BMS? (
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/bms/ ). Positive/ negative experiences from
anyone who's used it would be appreciated; I'm also considering Lithiumate
or Orion, but those seem quite a bit pricier. Thanks!
Philip
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[EVDL] bms

[ken via EV]

 
http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/72V-768V-864V-br-24-Cell-Battery-Series-br-15A-100A-Max-Charge-Discharge-Current-br-UL-SGS-and-UKAS-Certified-br-Custom-Built-Lithium-LiFePO4-LFP-br-PCB-PCM_p_601.html

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Re: [EVDL] BMS/PCM for upto 24 cells

[ken via EV]

On Mon, August 31, 2015 9:03 am, Cruisin via EV wrote:
> I have a BMS for 24 Li-ion cells that provides cell balancing 24/7. Also
> provides for charger cutoff to prevent overcharging and cutoff to prevent
> over discharging. Available from crui...@live.com

 tell me more about it ?


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Re: [EVDL] BMS/PCM for upto 24 cells

[Cruisin via EV]

I have a BMS for 24 Li-ion cells that provides cell balancing 24/7. Also
provides for charger cutoff to prevent overcharging and cutoff to prevent
over discharging. Available from crui...@live.com



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Re: [EVDL] BMS/PCM for upto 24 cells

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

What do you consider active balancing?  MiniBMS has shunts that bleed off 
energy on the cells that reach a set voltage limit first.  They aren't active 
as in moving charge from high cells to low cells, though.

At least the older ones I've got don't have any adjustment capability.  They do 
alarm on any cell under voltage or over voltage, though.  The high and low 
setpoints are fixed.  So is the voltage that the shunts are enabled.

Mike


On August 29, 2015 11:29:02 PM MDT, ken via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
I'm looking for BMS/PCM for upto 24 cells that does active balancing
and
has some type of  setable almarming if any cell goes below a set point
.

Orain junior only watches 16 cells .

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[EVDL] BMS/PCM for upto 24 cells

[ken via EV]

 I'm looking for BMS/PCM for upto 24 cells that does active balancing and
has some type of  setable almarming if any cell goes below a set point .

Orain junior only watches 16 cells .

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[EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[ken via EV]

 Is there anohter BMS to use for leafs cells dicides orion?

for like 125 volts?

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Re: [EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[Michael Kadie via EV]

How soon do you need it?
We have been testing our BMS with leaf cells for 6 months and will be making 
it available soon.   We have to finish our commitments to all of the people 
that signed up during our Beta program.

White paper https://goo.gl/knJmun

Michael 'T-Rex' Kadie
Simple Solutions Inclusive / SSI-Racing

-Original Message- 
From: ken via EV

Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 9:21 AM
To: damon henry ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

Is there anohter BMS to use for leafs cells dicides orion?

for like 125 volts?

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Re: [EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[Jay Summet via EV]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Here is the link to the MiniBMS units:
http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/minibms-cell-module/

You buy the 4.2 volt - LiNMC cells ( Leaf, Volt, etc ) option.

Jay


On 06/29/2015 06:21 PM, ken via EV wrote:
 Is there anohter BMS to use for leafs cells dicides orion?
 
 for like 125 volts?
 
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Version: GnuPG v1

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Re: [EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Jun 2015 at 22:43, Jay Summet via EV wrote:

 Here is the link to the MiniBMS units:
 http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/minibms-cell-module/
 
 You buy the 4.2 volt - LiNMC cells ( Leaf, Volt, etc ) option.

Are those pc boards conformal coated?  They look kind of naked.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Jun 2015 at 20:32, Willie2 via EV wrote:

 I've had a GREAT many fail when not well protected. 

That's not good, but it's good to know.  Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] BMS/ leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[Willie2 via EV]

On 06/29/2015 07:38 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 29 Jun 2015 at 22:43, Jay Summet via EV wrote:


Here is the link to the MiniBMS units:
http://minibms.mybigcommerce.com/minibms-cell-module/

You buy the 4.2 volt - LiNMC cells ( Leaf, Volt, etc ) option.

Are those pc boards conformal coated?  They look kind of naked.
He claims they're coated with something.  I've had a GREAT many fail 
when not well protected.


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[EVDL] BMS

[Sam Shepherd via EV]

I have a Ethilon BMS unit with harness for 48 cells.
If anyone could use this I'll deal11
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Re: [EVDL] BMS

[Cruisin via EV]

How much for the BMS and where is it at?



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[EVDL] BMS

[via EV]

quote author='Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list'
I have a Ethilon BMS unit with harness for 48 cells.
If anyone could use this I'll deal11
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/quote
Quoted from: 
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BMS-tp4671780.html

How much for the BMS and where is it at?


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Re: [EVDL] BMS

[Sam Shepherd via EV]

It's in San Diego and I was asking half retail.

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:32 PM, via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:

 quote author='Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list'
 I have a Ethilon BMS unit with harness for 48 cells.
 If anyone could use this I'll deal11
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 /quote
 Quoted from:

 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BMS-tp4671780.html

 How much for the BMS and where is it at?


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Re: [EVDL] BMS

[via EV]

 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: 
 quote author='Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list'
 I have a Ethilon BMS unit with harness for 48 cells.
 If anyone could use this I'll deal11
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 /quote
 Quoted from: 
 http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/BMS-tp4671780.html
 
 How much for the BMS and where is it at?
 
 It;s in San Diego and I'm asking half of retail.
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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Martin WINLOW]

Hi Lawrence,

You might have a look at this... http://liionbms.com/php/bms-selector.php

I don't know how up to date it is... it is also provided by Elithion who make 
the Lithiumate Lite  Pro BMMS', so not exactly unbiased, but it seems pretty 
fair to me!

Regards, MW.


On 3 Apr 2014, at 18:37, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

 I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an 
 estimate for thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to 
 spend thousands on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel 
 and series to  make 156vdc after charging.  Also with Curtis controllers is 
 it a good idea to go lower voltage as lithium is stiff/doesn't sag much just 
 wondering?  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Michael Ross]

Sorry, I see I typo'ed 3/18 should be 3./18.  JR talks about the LiMn
chemistry from the POV of what voltages to use with BB'ing, and why he
thinks BB'ing is appropriate.  There is a lot of good information about how
the Leaf packs he has are constructed.  It sounds like he doesn't expect
the 80% life to be nearly what LiFePO4 would be.  But still good.  He is
very happy with how it is put together.  Lot's of nice (over)engineering.
 Of course, he is selling them, so there may be some bias.  You can see a
lot watching the videos.  I couldn't take issue with anything I saw or that
he said.

Anyway, I think you could trade off the cost of a BMS for the labor to BB
the pack.  That is a trade off I almost always make by nature.


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.comwrote:

 A DIY'er might consider bottom balancing.  EVTV is doing just that with
 multiple Leaf packs they picked up from Israel.  I think the 3/21 episode
 covers this a bit.  I have not watched 3/18 yet.

 http://www.evtv.me.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/vidarch.html


 On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:55 PM, David Rees dree...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes
 primobass...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
  I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an
 estimate for
  thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to spend
 thousands
  on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel and series
 to  make 156vdc
  after charging.

 MiniBMS would be an option if it supported different voltage cutoffs
 (does it? I don't know). But even then you need 48 cell-modules if you
 split the pack in half which is going to cost you about $700.

 -Dave
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 --
 Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
 happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
 *Dalai Lama *

 Tell me what it is you plan to do
 With your one wild and precious life?
 Mary Oliver, The summer day.

 To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
 Thomas A. 
 Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

 A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
 *Warren Buffet*

 Michael E. Ross
 (919) 550-2430 Land
 (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google
 Phone
 (919) 631-1451 Cell
 (919) 513-0418 Desk

 michael.e.r...@gmail.com
 michael.e.r...@gmail.com





-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, The summer day.

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. 
Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

michael.e.r...@gmail.com
michael.e.r...@gmail.com
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[EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Lawrence Rhodes]

I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an estimate 
for thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to spend 
thousands on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel and series 
to  make 156vdc after charging.  Also with Curtis controllers is it a good idea 
to go lower voltage as lithium is stiff/doesn't sag much just wondering?  
Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[David Rees]

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes
primobass...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an 
 estimate for
 thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to spend 
 thousands
 on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel and series to  
 make 156vdc
 after charging.

MiniBMS would be an option if it supported different voltage cutoffs
(does it? I don't know). But even then you need 48 cell-modules if you
split the pack in half which is going to cost you about $700.

-Dave
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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Michael Ross]

A DIY'er might consider bottom balancing.  EVTV is doing just that with
multiple Leaf packs they picked up from Israel.  I think the 3/21 episode
covers this a bit.  I have not watched 3/18 yet.

http://www.evtv.me.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/vidarch.html


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:55 PM, David Rees dree...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes
 primobass...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
  I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an
 estimate for
  thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to spend
 thousands
  on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel and series to
  make 156vdc
  after charging.

 MiniBMS would be an option if it supported different voltage cutoffs
 (does it? I don't know). But even then you need 48 cell-modules if you
 split the pack in half which is going to cost you about $700.

 -Dave
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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Lawrence Rhodes]

Can one regulator monitor multiple cells in parallel?  That is if you have four 
strings of twenty lets say would you need 20 or 80 units?  Lawrence Rhodes...




 From: David Rees dree...@gmail.com
To: Lawrence Rhodes primobass...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells
 

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes

primobass...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an 
 estimate for
 thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to spend 
 thousands
 on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel and series to  
 make 156vdc
 after charging.

MiniBMS would be an option if it supported different voltage cutoffs
(does it? I don't know). But even then you need 48 cell-modules if you
split the pack in half which is going to cost you about $700.

-Dave




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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Cor van de Water]

Lawrence,
Think about it - parallel cells have by definition the same voltage and share 
the current,
so one regulator monitors a parallel set of cells as if it were a single cell 
with
capacity of the total set.

Only if you do separate strings (single cells in series) and parallel those 
strings,
would you need to monitor each cells, as two adjacent cells are not 
interconnected
(each in their own string) so they do not share voltage and current other than
whatever flows through each individual string.

Buddy-paired cells are acting like single cells with double capacity and I 
believe that is what you planned to do?

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203



-Original Message-
From: ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org on behalf of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thu 4/3/2014 5:58 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells
 
Can one regulator monitor multiple cells in parallel?  That is if you have four 
strings of twenty lets say would you need 20 or 80 units?  Lawrence Rhodes...




 From: David Rees dree...@gmail.com
To: Lawrence Rhodes primobass...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List ev@lists.evdl.org 
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells
 

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes

primobass...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an 
 estimate for
 thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to spend 
 thousands
 on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel and series to  
 make 156vdc
 after charging.

MiniBMS would be an option if it supported different voltage cutoffs
(does it? I don't know). But even then you need 48 cell-modules if you
split the pack in half which is going to cost you about $700.

-Dave




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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[EVDL Administrator]

On 3 Apr 2014 at 18:45, Michael Ross wrote:

 A DIY'er might consider bottom balancing.

Hmm, these are not the inherently safer LiFePO4 batteries.  The Leaf uses 
lithium manganese, IIRC.  

There seems to be an almost religious fervor among some proponents of bottom 
balancing, particularly some well known ones.  Maybe they're right.  But top 
balancing has been used in laptops and mobile phones since the early 1990s, 
with an excellent safety record.  That's also how the Leaf does it, no?

From what I can see, you're not in well charted territory here.  Tread 
cautiously.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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Re: [EVDL] BMS for leaf cells

[Buddy Mills]

Lawrence,
   You might want to give - http://www.orionbms.com/ - a call.  I am using
their BMS and am very impressed.  Not only with the unit but also the
support.  I do not use it with a Leaf battery but the website does say it
works with LiMn2O2.  My price was less than $1,500.00. It is pretty slick
and uses CANBUS.  I have it connected to a Android tablet with the app
Torque and monitor everything.  My voltage and resistance of each battery,
temp of my battery compartment, total voltage, AMP draw, high low cell and
it even has a SOC calculator that has not let me run out of juice yet.  It
uses CANBUS to control my charger and will even turn on fans to circulate
air to the battery box at user defined temps.  This interface has become the
focal point of my car show and tell because people understand the visual
graphic better then a bunch of batteries and wires.  Not sure if Orion can
help but it could not hurt to ask.

Buddy Mills
buddymi...@cox.net
 
Look mom, no gas. http://www.evalbum.com/2887

Disclaimer:  No animals were harmed or killed in the process of writing this
email.  Any stories to the contrary are, for the most part, either fictional
or greatly exaggerated. 


  
 I got a deal for a Leaf pack for 2500 dollars.  However I've gotten an
estimate for thousands for the BMS.  Is there a reliable BMS I don't have to
spend thousands on?  Will be dividing up the pack into strings of parallel
and series to  make 156vdc after charging.  Also with Curtis controllers is
it a good idea to go lower voltage as lithium is stiff/doesn't sag much just
wondering?  Lawrence Rhodes


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[EVDL] BMS controlling pot box

[Steve Clunn]

From: Lee Hart leeah...@earthlink.net
 I thought I would ask again for any explanation on how the 0-5k pot
 works on the zilla to increase voltage (counter-intuitive)
 and how does the BMS  affect that by reducing voltage?

I just installed a orion BMS for a guy with a wv buss before leaving
Florida and wrote a post on it but  some how got deleted .
The buss customer was in a hurry for me to get done and just wanted (
do what ever is quickest) a light on the back engine compartment (
not even a light on the dash or a buzzer :-( ) . I don't remember
which 2 wires I used to control the relay but they should be in the
instructions . I like Lee's way of putting the 2.5k resistor in
parallel as it won't stop the car dead but cut back on the power in a
way that you will notice it .

The standard arrangement for EV
controllers that use a 0-5k pot box is:

  - Minimum resistance = minimum speed.
  - Maximum resistance = maximum speed.
  - Shorted pot wires forces the controller OFF.
Actually, any resistance under a few hundred ohms is off.
  - Open pot wires also forces the controller OFF.
Actually, any resistance over about 4500 ohms forces it off.

This set up gives a lot of safety for thing that can easily happen


You need to talk to someone very familiar with the design of the
controller (like Otmar Ebenhoech for the Zilla) to get an accurate
answer on this.

I would save your one call to the controller god for a real problem
.  This is more a question for your dealer who makes money on selling
the parts . When I was setting up the Orion BMS I did have to call
them and they where very helpful ( probably not had to tell 100's of
people which end of the soldering iron to hold ) . There are a lot of
feathers on this , Audrey with her 900 number voice talked them into
letting us become a dealer so If you don't know which two wires run
the relay when the voltage of any cell drops below it thresh hold I'll
have her look it up .

But, it's not really necessary that you know. It's only necessary that
you set up your Orion BMS to change the *resistance* across the potbox
terminals to limit the motor speed.

Yes but Mike is probably worried about hooking something up wrong ,You
can do Lee's set up and just power the relay with a 12v source and see
that it works , then hook the BMS to the relay coil. ,

Did you say the Orion BMS has a relay that it turns on if any cell's
voltage is low?

I think you can program the BMS to either turn on or off  for the
fault ( like a dp relay and you pick what state you want)

You can set it to cut
back on the throttle, or even prevent you from driving if the total pack
voltage falls under X volts. This is another way to keep from destroying
cells if one goes dead.

Yes but I wouldn't count on this to much as one cell going bad and
dropping voltage will not be enough tell  the controller there is a
problem .
I will be coping your relay idea and sending it on if that's ok .
--

--
Steve Clunn
Merging the best of the past with
the best of the future.
www.Greenshedconversions.com
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