Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Same with plastics and paper product. Manufacturers so often stamp on 
them that they are 100% recyclable, as though that makes them 
environmentally friendly.


But, I think people do understand, though they might not always notice.

For the time being, I think there isn't much demand to recycle Li-ion 
batteries, as many are repurposed for grid storage. I wonder what 
percent are truly scrapped at this time ? And what percent of that is 
recycled ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "Paul Compton via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Paul Compton" 
Sent: 10-Nov-22 03:34:31
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of


Lead Acid batteries are 95% recyclable.

Lead Acid batteries are 95% recycled.


These are two very different statements, but very many people lack the
reading or comprehension skills to understand the difference.

--
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Paul Compton via EV]

Lead Acid batteries are 95% recyclable.

Lead Acid batteries are 95% recycled.


These are two very different statements, but very many people lack the
reading or comprehension skills to understand the difference.

-- 
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 31 Oct 2022 at 11:50, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> In developed countries, I think most lead-acid batteries are being
> recycled safely ... The situation was different in the past, and still
> is in some third world countries today. 

There are unfortunately some third world and lawless nations that do little 
or nothing to prevent lead pollution and outright immediate poisoning from 
battery recycling.  In some cases where there are regulations, a little cash 
in the hand of the appropriate official makes legal problems vanish in a 
puff of toxic smoke.

I don't know about today, but in the1990s and early 2000s I read that many  
spent lead batteries were being exported from the US to such places because, 
even with the shipping, it was cheaper to have them stripped there.  Once 
again the almighty buck won out over the environment and health.

There've also been cases where North American battery companies didn't 
follow the rules.  AFAIK they've paid the price, though not before their 
employees and neighbors did.  

My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I think that Eagle-Picher was 
one.  They declared bankruptcy 20-some years ago as a result of cleanup 
charges and fines levied against them.

Here we go - some info at Wikipedia - apparently they were on the hook for 
asbestos too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle-Picher

And here:

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-03-1051r

Corporations will always be tempted to take shortcuts for the sake of a 
little more protit.  That's why we have to rely on government to regulate 
industry.  

Funny how the "let's make goverment so small you can drown it in the 
bathtub" and "regulatory relief" politicians never talk about things like 
lead poisoning, isn't it?  That can't possibly be because lead makes you 
stupid, and stupid voters are easier to manipulate.  Can it?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Lee Hart via EV]

On 10/30/2022 3:15 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
Don’t forget that recycling of lead acid batteries contaminates the 
communities around them, creating major health problems to those near 
them and downwind.


Given that millions of lead-acid batteries are retired every year, it's 
not surprising that you can find plenty of recycling success stories, as 
well as plenty of failures.


In most developed countries, there are laws that dictate how to recycle 
lead-acid batteries safely. There are also fees to encourage proper 
recycling. Where I live (mid-state Minnesota), I get $5-$10 for a dead 
lead-acid battery, and it gets recycled in an EPA inspected recycling 
center. In developed countries, I think most lead-acid batteries are 
being recycled safely.


But of course, there are always a few who can't be bothered to follow 
the rules. Even in the US, I've rescued discarded lead-acid batteries 
from dumps and ditches.


The situation was different in the past, and still is in some third 
world countries today. Some of them are still following the hazardous 
practices that were common 100 years ago.


Regarding the comment that 50% of lead comes from new mining: Remember 
that lead is used for all sorts of things besides batteries; solder, 
ammunition, metal alloys, glass and ceramic additives, radiation 
shielding, lead weights, aviation gasoline... and much of that lead is 
*not* recycled; it must be replaced by new mining. The US has largely 
phased out all these other uses for lead, so batteries are the biggest user.


But in developing countries, only about 30% of lead is used for 
batteries. They are still using lead in gasoline, pipes, roofing, 
paints, and other products. China is the largest consumer of lead today; 
and it ain't for car batteries!


Is it perfect? No, of course not -- nothing is. But overall, I think 
lead-acid battery recycling is a success story. Far more so than any 
other battery technology.


Lee

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what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Ty Delaney via EV]

It was my understanding that Texaco bought the patents, shelved them, and 
retain them.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2022, at 8:51 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> Don’t forget that recycling of lead acid batteries contaminates the 
> communities around them, creating major health problems to those near them 
> and downwind.
> 
> 
> 
> - Mark
> 
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 30, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Peri Hartman wrote:
 There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
 else can be done?
>> 
>> EV List Lackey wrote:
>>> Nickel metal hydride?
>> 
>> There are actually lots of rechargeable battery technologies that could be 
>> used. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.
>> 
>> It's unfortunate that manufacturers tend to prefer a monoculture. "One thing 
>> to rule them all". But anything that you try to apply to 8 billion people is 
>> bound to cause unforeseen problems. Different applications should really use 
>> different solutions.
>> 
>> Lead-acid is cheap, and widely recyclable. But it's relatively heavy and has 
>> a low energy density. It still makes sense for short-range EVs like golf 
>> carts, fork lifts, scooters, etc. Also, don't forget that virtually every 
>> ICE is still using lead-acids.
>> 
>> Nickel-based batteries (nickel-iron, nickel-cadmium, nimh) have higher 
>> energy density and longer life, and the materials are relatively abundant. 
>> Nickel is expensive, but fairly easy to recycle (though it's not being 
>> widely done for batteries).
>> 
>> Lithium-based batteries have the highest energy density, but are expensive, 
>> less safe, and (at least for the present) not being recycled.
>> 
>> And, there are lots of other chemistries that could be used. We should be 
>> exploring *every* option; not just blindly picking one.
>> 
>> Lee Hart
>> 
>> -- 
>> "#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
>> what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
>> --
>> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>> 
>> -- 
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[clarke2 via EV]

Mark can you substantiate that statement?

Thanks, Dan

Dan 520-834-4176 I10 and Twin Peaks

On 10/30/2022 3:15 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Don’t forget that recycling of lead acid batteries contaminates the communities 
around them, creating major health problems to those near them and downwind.



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Oct 30, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

Peri Hartman wrote:

There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
else can be done?

EV List Lackey wrote:

Nickel metal hydride?

There are actually lots of rechargeable battery technologies that could be 
used. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.

It's unfortunate that manufacturers tend to prefer a monoculture. "One thing to rule 
them all". But anything that you try to apply to 8 billion people is bound to cause 
unforeseen problems. Different applications should really use different solutions.

Lead-acid is cheap, and widely recyclable. But it's relatively heavy and has a 
low energy density. It still makes sense for short-range EVs like golf carts, 
fork lifts, scooters, etc. Also, don't forget that virtually every ICE is still 
using lead-acids.

Nickel-based batteries (nickel-iron, nickel-cadmium, nimh) have higher energy 
density and longer life, and the materials are relatively abundant. Nickel is 
expensive, but fairly easy to recycle (though it's not being widely done for 
batteries).

Lithium-based batteries have the highest energy density, but are expensive, 
less safe, and (at least for the present) not being recycled.

And, there are lots of other chemistries that could be used. We should be 
exploring *every* option; not just blindly picking one.

Lee Hart

--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Bill Dube via EV]

There are many varieties of Li Ion to choose from. At this point in 
time, Li Ion appears to be the primary secondary, so to speak, battery 
choice. :-)


Lead acid, much like other legacy technologies, will take some time to 
fade into the background. It is simply a matter of time.


Lead acid batteries _claim_ to be 95%+ recycled, but the actual lead 
usage figures (from the lead industry's own website) tell a different 
story.


About 50% of all lead used comes from recycled lead, but the other 50% 
comes from lead mines. This 50/50 mix has been the case for at least a 
decade. About 80% of all lead is used in the production of lead-acid 
batteries. (Again, these figures are right from the lead industry's 
website.) If you think about that for just a moment, it becomes apparent 
that at _least_ 30% of lead acid batteries must be escaping recycling. 
(Likely more than 30% since some fraction of the other lead use products 
are indeed recycled.)


Obviously, the lead industry's claim that 95% of lead-acid batteries 
cannot be correct. I suspect that 95% of the lead-acid batteries that 
manage to enter the gates of the recycling facility manage to be 
recycled, rather than 95% of _all_ lead-acid batteries are recycled.


Numerous lead smelter facilities have ended up as super-fund sites. For 
a brief period in my life, I lived in what was discovered to be in the 
plume of such a super-fund site. Globeville, CO.  They removed the top 
few inches of soil from the entire neighborhood, carted it away, and 
replaced it. Thankfully, I was not there during the years that the 
smelter was in operation. I know people that were, however, and they 
were very obviously affected.


Another interesting fact is that there are about 2500 _reportable_ 
injuries from lead-acid batteries in ICE cars in the USA every year, 
mostly due to accidental hydrogen explosions. There are certainly more 
unreported injuries, and incidents.


No doubt, we will move on from lead-acid batteries.

Bill D.

On 10/31/2022 11:15 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Don’t forget that recycling of lead acid batteries contaminates the communities 
around them, creating major health problems to those near them and downwind.



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone


On Oct 30, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

Peri Hartman wrote:

There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
else can be done?

EV List Lackey wrote:

Nickel metal hydride?

There are actually lots of rechargeable battery technologies that could be 
used. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.

It's unfortunate that manufacturers tend to prefer a monoculture. "One thing to rule 
them all". But anything that you try to apply to 8 billion people is bound to cause 
unforeseen problems. Different applications should really use different solutions.

Lead-acid is cheap, and widely recyclable. But it's relatively heavy and has a 
low energy density. It still makes sense for short-range EVs like golf carts, 
fork lifts, scooters, etc. Also, don't forget that virtually every ICE is still 
using lead-acids.

Nickel-based batteries (nickel-iron, nickel-cadmium, nimh) have higher energy 
density and longer life, and the materials are relatively abundant. Nickel is 
expensive, but fairly easy to recycle (though it's not being widely done for 
batteries).

Lithium-based batteries have the highest energy density, but are expensive, 
less safe, and (at least for the present) not being recycled.

And, there are lots of other chemistries that could be used. We should be 
exploring *every* option; not just blindly picking one.

Lee Hart

--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Don’t forget that recycling of lead acid batteries contaminates the communities 
around them, creating major health problems to those near them and downwind.



- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Peri Hartman wrote:
>>> There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
>>> else can be done?
> 
> EV List Lackey wrote:
>> Nickel metal hydride?
> 
> There are actually lots of rechargeable battery technologies that could be 
> used. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> It's unfortunate that manufacturers tend to prefer a monoculture. "One thing 
> to rule them all". But anything that you try to apply to 8 billion people is 
> bound to cause unforeseen problems. Different applications should really use 
> different solutions.
> 
> Lead-acid is cheap, and widely recyclable. But it's relatively heavy and has 
> a low energy density. It still makes sense for short-range EVs like golf 
> carts, fork lifts, scooters, etc. Also, don't forget that virtually every ICE 
> is still using lead-acids.
> 
> Nickel-based batteries (nickel-iron, nickel-cadmium, nimh) have higher energy 
> density and longer life, and the materials are relatively abundant. Nickel is 
> expensive, but fairly easy to recycle (though it's not being widely done for 
> batteries).
> 
> Lithium-based batteries have the highest energy density, but are expensive, 
> less safe, and (at least for the present) not being recycled.
> 
> And, there are lots of other chemistries that could be used. We should be 
> exploring *every* option; not just blindly picking one.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> "#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
> what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman wrote:

There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
else can be done?


EV List Lackey wrote:

Nickel metal hydride?


There are actually lots of rechargeable battery technologies that could 
be used. Each has different strengths and weaknesses.


It's unfortunate that manufacturers tend to prefer a monoculture. "One 
thing to rule them all". But anything that you try to apply to 8 billion 
people is bound to cause unforeseen problems. Different applications 
should really use different solutions.


Lead-acid is cheap, and widely recyclable. But it's relatively heavy and 
has a low energy density. It still makes sense for short-range EVs like 
golf carts, fork lifts, scooters, etc. Also, don't forget that virtually 
every ICE is still using lead-acids.


Nickel-based batteries (nickel-iron, nickel-cadmium, nimh) have higher 
energy density and longer life, and the materials are relatively 
abundant. Nickel is expensive, but fairly easy to recycle (though it's 
not being widely done for batteries).


Lithium-based batteries have the highest energy density, but are 
expensive, less safe, and (at least for the present) not being recycled.


And, there are lots of other chemistries that could be used. We should 
be exploring *every* option; not just blindly picking one.


Lee Hart

--
"#3 pencils and quadrille pads." -- Seymour Cray, when asked
what CAD tools he used to design the Cray I supercomputer
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Peri Hartman via EV]

As best as I can tell, LiFePo is far superior to NiMH.

I looked at several sites and here's data from one that seems to be 
consistent with the others, but easier to read:


https://www.hardingenergy.com/lithium-2/
https://www.hardingenergy.com/nickel/

Continuous rate: Li is about 10x better (doesn't say if applies to 
charge & discharge)

Wh/Kg: Li is about double.
Wh/L: Li is about 75%.

I put the last one in because it is the one failing point of LiFePo. On 
other factors, they are fairly equivalent or not relevant as presented.


So, for cars and trucks, which is more important - the weight or the 
volume ? I don't know, both are important. But I think the principal 
factor is the charge and discharge rates. We're already struggling to 
get fast enough charge rates to enable easy long distance driving, and 
that needs to improve (by most people's opinions). NiMH would be a large 
setback.


I have no idea if the patent has somehow been extended.

Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
Sent: 29-Oct-22 17:37:06
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of


On 29 Oct 2022 at 20:57, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


 There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What
 else can be done ?


Nickel metal hydride?

NiMH  has significantly lower specific energy than lithium, but reliability
and cycle life are outstanding and well proven.

I don't know if we're in any better shape on the nickel supply than we are
on lithium and cobalt, or how nickel mining's environmental footprint
compares with theirs.  I see that nickel mainly comes from Indonesia,
Philippines, Canada, and French New Caledonia.  Those are relatively stable
places.

I think a lot of the reason that NiMH lost out to lithium for the current EV
stable was the idiotic and immoral (should be criminal) patent emcumbrance.
But that's expired, hasn't it?  Yes?  No?

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel
 like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some
 humorous comments on lava.

   -- Tom Lehrer
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 29 Oct 2022 at 20:57, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What 
> else can be done ?

Nickel metal hydride?

NiMH  has significantly lower specific energy than lithium, but reliability 
and cycle life are outstanding and well proven.  

I don't know if we're in any better shape on the nickel supply than we are 
on lithium and cobalt, or how nickel mining's environmental footprint 
compares with theirs.  I see that nickel mainly comes from Indonesia, 
Philippines, Canada, and French New Caledonia.  Those are relatively stable 
places.

I think a lot of the reason that NiMH lost out to lithium for the current EV 
stable was the idiotic and immoral (should be criminal) patent emcumbrance. 
But that's expired, hasn't it?  Yes?  No?  

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel 
 like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some 
 humorous comments on lava. 

   -- Tom Lehrer
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I think the push helps. Yes, the momentum is there and the pace is 
accelerating. But we still can't make an affordable battery that can 
charge rapidly, uses readily available raw materials, and is compact and 
light. The push will indirectly put more pressure on R: whoever comes 
up with the best technology will be economic winners, meaning more 
people and companies would try things than without a mandate.


There's been a move back to LiFePo because it doesn't use cobalt. What 
else can be done ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "John Lussmyer via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "John Lussmyer" 
Sent: 29-Oct-22 13:07:56
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of


It may not matter.  EV's are hitting the exponential growth curve, and ICE 
vehicles are hitting the reverse exponential curve.
EV's will continue to get less expensive as volume production increases, and 
new lower-end models come out.
ICE vehicle manufacturers are already making very slim profits, and as demand 
for ICE vehicles goes down, so do their profits - as they will start loosing 
the benefits of mass-production when they have to reduce output.  Most ICE 
manufacturers also have a HUGE amount of debt to deal with.

On 10/29/2022 1:00 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

A 2035 ban was agreed on in principle in June but with some resistance.  As
of Friday they seem to have mostly worked things out.  The upshot is that
vehicles have to show 50-55% carbon reduction by 2030 and zero carbon by
2035, with boutique / luxury automakers given only an extra year.

It's said that this is effectively an EV mandate, but they did leave a door
open for "carbon-neutral fuels."  I'm sure there's no way THAT provision can
be exploited. :-\

Germany was resisting the ban, no surprise as gasoline runs in their veins.

France also pushed back, which surprised and disappointed me.  Stellantis
and Renault both buttonholed French prez Macron and got him to call for a 5
year extension, which we all know they'd later insist had to be extended
still further.

Stellantis is riding on Fiat's long love affair with gasoline.  Their CEO
Carlos Tavares whined that the legislation "has social consequences that are
not manageable ... If you deny the middle classes access to freedom of
movement [because the automakers are profiteering on EVs], you are going to
have serious social problems."  This shows a lot of gall, coming from one of
the companies that reacted to the auto semiconductor shortage by making
mostly its most expensive vehicles.

As for Renault, they  used to be an EV leader, but they've lost EV momentum
since their new CEO Luca de Meo (formerly of VW's Seat) took over in 2020.


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: EU agrees on 2035 ICEV ban, sort of

[John Lussmyer via EV]

It may not matter.  EV's are hitting the exponential growth curve, and 
ICE vehicles are hitting the reverse exponential curve.
EV's will continue to get less expensive as volume production increases, 
and new lower-end models come out.
ICE vehicle manufacturers are already making very slim profits, and as 
demand for ICE vehicles goes down, so do their profits - as they will 
start loosing the benefits of mass-production when they have to reduce 
output.  Most ICE manufacturers also have a HUGE amount of debt to deal 
with.


On 10/29/2022 1:00 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

A 2035 ban was agreed on in principle in June but with some resistance.  As
of Friday they seem to have mostly worked things out.  The upshot is that
vehicles have to show 50-55% carbon reduction by 2030 and zero carbon by
2035, with boutique / luxury automakers given only an extra year.

It's said that this is effectively an EV mandate, but they did leave a door
open for "carbon-neutral fuels."  I'm sure there's no way THAT provision can
be exploited. :-\

Germany was resisting the ban, no surprise as gasoline runs in their veins.

France also pushed back, which surprised and disappointed me.  Stellantis
and Renault both buttonholed French prez Macron and got him to call for a 5
year extension, which we all know they'd later insist had to be extended
still further.

Stellantis is riding on Fiat's long love affair with gasoline.  Their CEO
Carlos Tavares whined that the legislation "has social consequences that are
not manageable ... If you deny the middle classes access to freedom of
movement [because the automakers are profiteering on EVs], you are going to
have serious social problems."  This shows a lot of gall, coming from one of
the companies that reacted to the auto semiconductor shortage by making
mostly its most expensive vehicles.

As for Renault, they  used to be an EV leader, but they've lost EV momentum
since their new CEO Luca de Meo (formerly of VW's Seat) took over in 2020.


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