Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system (backup foolishness)
It just requires people to share, and to value that efficiency enough to engage in collective collaborative activity. Could refer to a public utility or a private one that is regulated well. That was what I meant, but I wanted to frame it broadly - a distributed utility functioning in the most efficient manner. However that actually would work... As far as knowledge, there is plenty if you seek it, I have done enough research into newer testing methods, and the design and application of Li ion cells, in many of their forms, that I do not need to make stuff up. I did not make faith based comments. There are already ways to get 10+ year life used in medical applications. The reasons for failure are unrelated to charge rates and current levels. You can extrapolate to larger size cells and test the larger cells in a reasonable length of time. Testing can now adequately describe the expected cycle life of cells and compare among them validly. Even to the level of detecting the effect of additions of small fractions of electrolyte additives. Design by the best people is now going to produce far better results than we are used to. It is now more of a design problem - but too few people are able to design properly, because they use old information based on inferior testing. On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 11:35 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 2 May 2015 at 23:00, Michael Ross via EV wrote: Distributed electrical utility is far more efficient than every little node meeting peak demand. It just requires people to share, and to value that efficiency enough to engage in collective collaborative activity. To me, the idea of an electric cooperative has strong appeal. However, the pessimist in me says that if such a movement ever really got going in a big way, the commercial power producers would call in their lobbying chips and have at it. If ISPs can get laws passed against cities developing internet service, surely utilities can get laws passed against co-ops providing electric service. I DO believe that some Li ion cells can be operated to last at least 10 years, some types probably 20. There is science to back this up. New testing with good correlation to reality. Maybe you and I are just using different language for this, but we need knowledge, not faith. We can get real knowledge of whether some (many?) kinds of lithium batteries last 10-20 years. However, it'll take 10-20 years. Accelerated life testing is useful, but it's not the final answer. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150503/744b584c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system (backup foolishness)
One issue with LFP is the process to apply the LiFePO4 is the conductor has to take place in a noble atmosphere - as opposed to most of the others that can simply be done in air that is clean. I have heard EM say that Ni is the costliest part of Ni containing cells, even more than CO or Mn (also not inexpensive). Lithium Titanate excites many people. On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 2:25 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 1 May 2015 at 16:24, Ben Goren via EV wrote: Lithium is probably already at the 80/20 rule for technical performance compared with nickel-iron...and it's a lot cheaper. This puzzles me. I don't see what, other than scarcity, makes NiFe batteries so bloody darn expensive. OK, nickel isn't the cheapest metal, but I'm seeing over a buck per watt- hour (~$1.06) from one US manufacturer. Unless my math is totally off, that's almost 3 times LiFePO4's cost per watt hour ($0.37), and about 14 (!) times lead's cost per watt hour (C20/$0.076). Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anything to justify that price other than limited production and because we can. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150502/e9c064ea/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Tesla plugs into new market with home battery system (backup foolishness)
Lee Hart wrote: $6k of golf cart batteries is about 60 of them; that's around 80 KWH of storage! Who on earth needs that much for a home. Robert Bruninga wrote: My solar panels produce typically 60 to 70 kWH every sunny day. If I do not use every bit of it every day, then I am wasting my solar investment right? Hence, I sell it to the grid every day and buy it back when I need it at no net cost. (if you have net metering) If I had to store it in batteries (at your proposed 10% daily depth of discharge) then I would need 600 kWh of batteries or $60K investment (and replace it every 10 years). Again, batteries MAKE NO ECONOMICAL SENSE WHATSOEVER compared to grid-tie. I think the issue being discussed here is to add batteries to a grid-tie system, so you can have power when the grid is down. NOT to eliminate the grid completely. I was talking about a BACKUP battery, to power things for those brief periods when the grid is down. Such a battery pack is rarely used; so it is likely to wear out from old age rather than cycle life. Lead-acid batteries makes sense for such applications. I agree with you that it's cheaper to use the grid as your battery. It makes sense for the utilities too, if they could just get it through their thick heads. But I do not think the state of the art in batteries is good enough yet to use them in PLACE of the grid. Doing this will be very expensive. It's done when you only need small amounts of power, or are so far off the grid that it's prohibitively expensive to get connected. I also simply don't believe the marketing claims of battery salesmen. They may say it will last 10-20 years; but I want a guarantee, or solid evidence that exactly that type of battery *has* lasted 10-20 years in the real world (not some accelerated test in a lab). -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
