Re: Einstein quote

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 14 May 2018, at 06:52, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 'There is no inductive method which could lead to the fundamental concepts of 
> physics. Failure to understand this fact constituted the basic philosophical 
> error of so many investigators of the nineteenth century.'
> 
> What does he mean? AG

He means that you cannot be sure to find a physical laws (which involves 
infinities of examples) from a finite number of observations. 

Obviously, this is quite close to the spirit of computationalism, which go 
farer in justifying that we can deduce the existence of the indexical apparence 
of the physical realm, and its quantitative aspects, by reasoning alone. The 
physical reality is still needed to test it, and in this case it is 
computationalism which is tested.

The physical reality is “in the head” of all universal number (in arithmetic or 
in a Turing equivalent).

Einstein is right, and the way physics approach reality makes it impossible to 
distinguish a physical laws from geographical law. With computationalism, and 
who knows perhaps with other hypotheses, we have the mean to distinguish 
physics from geography, and computationalism justifies well what is a physical 
law (it is what is invariant for all observable by any universal machine).

I guess this is a quote of the old Einstein, perhaps after he met Gödel, 
although the young Einstein was also rather “physical platonist”, so I am not 
sure. He did say to someone asking if he do experiments that his laboratory was 
his pen and paper, if I remind well.

I have not the time to mesquite it, but Raymond Smullyan, in “Forever 
Undecided” made very precisely the confusion between physics and geography, and 
it helped me to realise this was a common confusion for mathematicians, still 
today.

Mechanism makes physics invariant for the primitive universal machinery 
(invariant for the choice of the “base” used for naming the partial computable 
functions phi_i and their range/domain the w_i). This should be enough to 
deduce the laws of the observable, and indeed that has been done, and confirmed 
up to now.

One day we should discuss on the similarity and difference between the 
induction axioms in mathematics, and the inductive inference in the empirical 
science. It is both quite different yet much more related than is usually 
thought. 

Bruno







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Re: Einstein quote

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 10:11:04 PM UTC, Russell Standish wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:38:12AM -0700, agrays...@gmail.com 
>  wrote: 
> > 
> > *I see. So for Einstein an "inductive method" is indistinguishable from 
> > naive speculation. AG * 
> > 
>
> Not at all. Inductive method is proposing new laws based on (lots of) 
> empirical evidence. If you always see B after A, then you might propose a 
> law 
> that A causes B. 
>

I exaggerated for effect. After all, Einstein wrote that *"Tentative 
deduction takes the place of the predominantly inductive methods 
appropriate to the youthful state of science*." So what happens following 
that "youthful state"; pulling principles out of a hat, aka DEDUCTION? 
Didn't the MM experiment indicate to Einstein the non existence of 
preferred frames of reference? Didn't discrete spectra of atomic gases 
suggest operators with discrete eigenvalue spectra? Wasn't this done by 
"predominately INDUCTIVE methods"? So what is DEDUCTION? AG

Conversely, Einstein was arguing that in modern theoretical science, 
> principles come first, only to be tested against experiment much later 
> by working out specific experiments to test the theory. 
>
> BTW - with deep learning, AI is back in the inductive method phase :). 
>
> -- 
>
>  
>
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
> Principal, High Performance Coders 
> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpc...@hpcoders.com.au 
>  
> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>  
>
>

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Re: Einstein quote

[John Clark]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:50 PM, Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:

*​>​ Inductive reasoning involves recognizing some process and then
> thinking of some general principle.*


Inductive reasoning is much simpler than deductive reasoning, it simply
makes use of the rule of thumb that things usually continue. Its much more
universal than deductive reasoning too, all animals make use of it even
snails. If a snail is in pitch darkness and then suddenly a intense flash
of light occurs the mollusk will go into emergency mode and withdraw into
its shell; if however its not just a flash but the bright light is
continuous then bright light is now the new normal, the snail will assume
the light will continue and go back into normal mode and go about its
business doing whatever snails do. If then the light suddenly goes out and
does not continue then the snail will go into emergency mode again and
withdraw into its shell. In other words Evolution has programmed the snail
to assume that things usually continue, and when they don't continue danger
often follows so precautions need to be taken. Evolution has found that
this sort of program beats out a program that does absolutely nothing when
a flash happens or when everything suddenly goes dark, it beats a program
that does NOT assume that things usually continue.

Induction isn't perfect but it's pretty good, for example inductive
reasoning would say if John Clark doesn't exist today he won't exist
tomorrow either and if John Clark does exist today he will exist tomorrow
too. In the entire 13.8 billion year history of the universe induction
would only be wrong about that twice, on the day of my birth and on the day
of by death. So that's a pretty good rule of thumb.
​

John K Clark​

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Re: Einstein quote

[Lawrence Crowell]

On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 5:11:04 PM UTC-5, Russell Standish wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:38:12AM -0700, agrays...@gmail.com 
>  wrote: 
> > 
> > *I see. So for Einstein an "inductive method" is indistinguishable from 
> > naive speculation. AG * 
> > 
>
> Not at all. Inductive method is proposing new laws based on (lots of) 
> empirical evidence. If you always see B after A, then you might propose a 
> law 
> that A causes B. 
>
> Conversely, Einstein was arguing that in modern theoretical science, 
> principles come first, only to be tested against experiment much later 
> by working out specific experiments to test the theory. 
>
> BTW - with deep learning, AI is back in the inductive method phase :). 
>

Deductive reasoning is the stuff you learn in textbooks. Problems students 
solve in undergraduate and graduate texts are usually about taking known 
principles and working them or if there is a bit more it might involve 
generalizing these principles. Inductive reasoning involves recognizing 
some process and then thinking of some general principle. It is the 
opposite.

Einstein realized that if he were watching a clock and accelerated to 
closer the speed of light that he would witness it tick time more slowly. 
He then abstracted the idea the speed of light was constant and space and 
time transformed. This is inductive reasoning. What Einstein is saying is 
there is no general method for doing this. It is not something that can be 
taught to student as a method, as can be done for deductive reasoning.

LC

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Re: Einstein quote

[Russell Standish]

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:38:12AM -0700, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> *I see. So for Einstein an "inductive method" is indistinguishable from 
> naive speculation. AG *
> 

Not at all. Inductive method is proposing new laws based on (lots of)
empirical evidence. If you always see B after A, then you might propose a law
that A causes B.

Conversely, Einstein was arguing that in modern theoretical science,
principles come first, only to be tested against experiment much later
by working out specific experiments to test the theory.

BTW - with deep learning, AI is back in the inductive method phase :).

-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Einstein quote

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 2:06:53 PM UTC, scerir wrote:
>
>
> Il 14 maggio 2018 alle 14.17 agrays...@gmail.com  ha 
> scritto: 
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 6:20:42 AM UTC, scerir wrote:
>
>
> Il 14 maggio 2018 alle 6.52 agrays...@gmail.com ha scritto: 
>
> 'There is no inductive method which could lead to the fundamental concepts 
> of physics. Failure to understand this fact constituted the basic 
> philosophical error of so many investigators of the nineteenth century.'
>
> What does he mean? AG
>
> What is an "inductive method"? AG 
>
> "The theory of relativity is a beautiful example of the basic character of 
> the modern development of theory. That is to say, the hypotheses from which 
> one starts become ever more abstract and more remote from experience. B*ut 
> in return one comes closer to the preeminent goal of science, that of 
> encompassing a maximum of empirical contents through logical deduction with 
> a minimum of hypotheses or axioms*. The intellectual path from the axioms 
> to the empirical contents or to the testable consequences becomes, thereby, 
> ever longer and more subtle. The theoretician is forced, ever more, to 
> allow himself to be directed by purely mathematical, formal points of view 
> in the search for theories, because *the physical experience of the 
> experimenter is not capable of leading us up to the regions of the highest 
> abstraction*. *Tentative deduction takes the place of the predominantly 
> inductive methods appropriate to the youthful state of science*. Such a 
> theoretical structure must be quite thoroughly elaborated in order for it 
> to lead to consequences that can be compared with experience. It is 
> certainly the case that here, as well, the empirical fact is the 
> all-powerful judge. But its judgment can be handed down only on the basis 
> of great and difficult intellectual effort that first bridges the wide 
> space between the axioms and the testable consequences. The theorist must 
> accomplish this Herculean task with the clear understanding that this 
> effort may only be destined to prepare the way for a death sentence for his 
> theory. One should not reproach the theorist who undertakes such a task by 
> calling him a fantast; instead, one must allow him his fantasizing, since 
> for him there is no other way to his goal whatsoever. Indeed, it is no 
> planless fantasizing, but rather a search for the logically simplest 
> possibilities and their consequences."
>
> --Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, 1954
>


*I see. So for Einstein an "inductive method" is indistinguishable from 
naive speculation. AG *

>
>
>
>  
>
> As far as I understand, according to E., physics is made from *principles* 
> and from *operations*. As for *operations* (operationism in physics, there 
> are books about that, by Bridgman) tet us think, in example, of Special 
> Relativity.
>
> Unfortunately, for E., also QM is based on *operations*!
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/dlhquantum/educational/einstein-heisenberg
>
> and G. Holton here
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sanders/214/other/news/Holton.html
>
> and here
>
> http://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.1292474 (scroll down)
>
>  
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Re: Einstein quote

['scerir' via Everything List]

> Il 14 maggio 2018 alle 14.17 agrayson2...@gmail.com ha scritto:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 6:20:42 AM UTC, scerir wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > 
> > > > > Il 14 maggio 2018 alle 6.52 agrays...@gmail.com ha 
> > scritto:
> > > 
> > > 'There is no inductive method which could lead to the 
> > > fundamental concepts of physics. Failure to understand this fact 
> > > constituted the basic philosophical error of so many investigators of the 
> > > nineteenth century.'
> > > 
> > > What does he mean? AG
> > > 
> > > > > 
> > > What is an "inductive method"? AG
> 

"The theory of relativity is a beautiful example of the basic character of the 
modern development of theory. That is to say, the hypotheses from which one 
starts become ever more abstract and more remote from experience. But in return 
one comes closer to the preeminent goal of science, that of encompassing a 
maximum of empirical contents through logical deduction with a minimum of 
hypotheses or axioms. The intellectual path from the axioms to the empirical 
contents or to the testable consequences becomes, thereby, ever longer and more 
subtle. The theoretician is forced, ever more, to allow himself to be directed 
by purely mathematical, formal points of view in the search for theories, 
because the physical experience of the experimenter is not capable of leading 
us up to the regions of the highest abstraction. Tentative deduction takes the 
place of the predominantly inductive methods appropriate to the youthful state 
of science. Such a theoretical structure must be quite thoroughly elaborated in 
order for it to lead to consequences that can be compared with experience. It 
is certainly the case that here, as well, the empirical fact is the 
all-powerful judge. But its judgment can be handed down only on the basis of 
great and difficult intellectual effort that first bridges the wide space 
between the axioms and the testable consequences. The theorist must accomplish 
this Herculean task with the clear understanding that this effort may only be 
destined to prepare the way for a death sentence for his theory. One should not 
reproach the theorist who undertakes such a task by calling him a fantast; 
instead, one must allow him his fantasizing, since for him there is no other 
way to his goal whatsoever. Indeed, it is no planless fantasizing, but rather a 
search for the logically simplest possibilities and their consequences."

--Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, 1954



> 
>  
> 
> > > 
> > As far as I understand, according to E., physics is made from 
> > *principles* and from *operations*. As for *operations* (operationism in 
> > physics, there are books about that, by Bridgman) tet us think, in example, 
> > of Special Relativity.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, for E., also QM is based on *operations*!
> > 
> > 
> > https://sites.google.com/site/dlhquantum/educational/einstein-heisenberg 
> > https://sites.google.com/site/dlhquantum/educational/einstein-heisenberg
> > 
> > and G. Holton here
> > 
> > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sanders/214/other/news/Holton.html 
> > http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sanders/214/other/news/Holton.html
> > 
> > and here
> > 
> > http://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.1292474 
> > http://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.1292474 (scroll down)
> > 
> > > > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > --
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> > > > > 
> > > 
>  
> 
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Re: Einstein quote

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, May 14, 2018 at 6:20:42 AM UTC, scerir wrote:
>
>
> Il 14 maggio 2018 alle 6.52 agrays...@gmail.com  ha scritto: 
>
> 'There is no inductive method which could lead to the fundamental concepts 
> of physics. Failure to understand this fact constituted the basic 
> philosophical error of so many investigators of the nineteenth century.'
>
> What does he mean? AG
>
> What is an "inductive method"? AG

 

> As far as I understand, according to E., physics is made from *principles* 
> and from *operations*. As for *operations* (operationism in physics, there 
> are books about that, by Bridgman) tet us think, in example, of Special 
> Relativity. 
>
> Unfortunately, for E., also QM is based on *operations*!
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/dlhquantum/educational/einstein-heisenberg
>
> and G. Holton here 
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sanders/214/other/news/Holton.html
>
> and here
>
> http://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.1292474 (scroll down)
>
>  
> -- 
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>
>

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Re: Einstein quote

['scerir' via Everything List]

> Il 14 maggio 2018 alle 6.52 agrayson2...@gmail.com ha scritto:
> 
> 'There is no inductive method which could lead to the fundamental 
> concepts of physics. Failure to understand this fact constituted the basic 
> philosophical error of so many investigators of the nineteenth century.'
> 
> What does he mean? AG
> 

As far as I understand, according to E., physics is made from *principles* and 
from *operations*. As for *operations* (operationism in physics, there are 
books about that, by Bridgman) tet us think, in example, of Special Relativity.

Unfortunately, for E., also QM is based on *operations*!

https://sites.google.com/site/dlhquantum/educational/einstein-heisenberg

and G. Holton here

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~sanders/214/other/news/Holton.html

and here

http://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.1292474 (scroll down)

> 
>  
> 
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Einstein quote

[agrayson2000]

'There is no inductive method which could lead to the fundamental concepts 
of physics. Failure to understand this fact constituted the basic 
philosophical error of so many investigators of the nineteenth century.'

What does he mean? AG

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Re: Lovely Einstein Quote

[Bruno Marchal]

On 02 Apr 2015, at 02:31, Jason Resch wrote:

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part  
limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and  
feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical  
delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us,  
restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few  
persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the  
prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living  
creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a  
human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they  
have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a  
substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to  
survive." (Albert Einstein, 1954)




I didn't know until today he also believed the egoist self was a  
delusion.



Yes, that is a nice quote.

Thanks to Gödel, Einstein seems to have understood eventually that we  
can choose to study mathematics for metaphysical or spiritual inquiry  
(according to Pale Yourgrau).


Many people confuse mathematics and mathematical theories. Logicians  
study the relation in between, mathematically.


Bruno





Jason

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: Lovely Einstein Quote

[LizR]

Temple Grandin could help out.

On 3 April 2015 at 16:58, LizR  wrote:

> Well, you just have to kill them humanely, and I promise to take off my
> heels before I stomp your foot.
>
> (Or become vegetarian...)
>
> On 3 April 2015 at 05:27, spudboy100 via Everything List <
> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Jason, If I stomp on your foot, it is you who will feel the pain not I,
>> nor, will your poor toes pain be distributed amongst 7 billion others, just
>> you. When we can grow meats without the animal we'll stop slaughtering
>> animals for example. Sometimes compassion must be bracketed by what we are
>> capable of doing at the time. Mayhap, in some future day, somebody will use
>> their time machine to travel back to 1347 with a cure for the black plague,
>> but that day is not today.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Jason Resch 
>> To: Everything List 
>> Sent: Wed, Apr 1, 2015 8:31 pm
>> Subject: Lovely Einstein Quote
>>
>>  "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part
>> limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and
>> feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of
>> consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to
>> our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our
>> task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of
>> compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its
>> beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and
>> the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall
>> require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive."
>> (Albert Einstein, 1954)
>>
>>
>>
>>  I didn't know until today he also believed the egoist self was a
>> delusion.
>>
>>  Jason
>>  --
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Re: Lovely Einstein Quote

[LizR]

Well, you just have to kill them humanely, and I promise to take off my
heels before I stomp your foot.

(Or become vegetarian...)

On 3 April 2015 at 05:27, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Jason, If I stomp on your foot, it is you who will feel the pain not I,
> nor, will your poor toes pain be distributed amongst 7 billion others, just
> you. When we can grow meats without the animal we'll stop slaughtering
> animals for example. Sometimes compassion must be bracketed by what we are
> capable of doing at the time. Mayhap, in some future day, somebody will use
> their time machine to travel back to 1347 with a cure for the black plague,
> but that day is not today.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jason Resch 
> To: Everything List 
> Sent: Wed, Apr 1, 2015 8:31 pm
> Subject: Lovely Einstein Quote
>
>  "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part
> limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and
> feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of
> consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to
> our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our
> task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of
> compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its
> beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and
> the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall
> require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive."
> (Albert Einstein, 1954)
>
>
>
>  I didn't know until today he also believed the egoist self was a
> delusion.
>
>  Jason
>  --
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Re: Lovely Einstein Quote

[spudboy100 via Everything List]

Jason, If I stomp on your foot, it is you who will feel the pain not I, nor, 
will your poor toes pain be distributed amongst 7 billion others, just you. 
When we can grow meats without the animal we'll stop slaughtering animals for 
example. Sometimes compassion must be bracketed by what we are capable of doing 
at the time. Mayhap, in some future day, somebody will use their time machine 
to travel back to 1347 with a cure for the black plague, but that day is not 
today. 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Jason Resch 
To: Everything List 
Sent: Wed, Apr 1, 2015 8:31 pm
Subject: Lovely Einstein Quote


 
"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in 
time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something 
separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This 
delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and 
to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free 
ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all 
living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a 
human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have 
obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner 
of thinking if humanity is to survive." (Albert Einstein, 1954)  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
   
  
  
I didn't know until today he also believed the egoist self was a delusion.  
  
   
  
  
Jason  
 
  
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Re: Lovely Einstein Quote

[LizR]

Ah yes, I thought he had Buddhist leanings.

On 2 April 2015 at 13:31, Jason Resch  wrote:

> "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited
> in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as
> something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of
> consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to
> our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our
> task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of
> compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its
> beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and
> the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall
> require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive."
> (Albert Einstein, 1954)
>
>
>
> I didn't know until today he also believed the egoist self was a delusion.
>
> Jason
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Lovely Einstein Quote

[Jason Resch]

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited
in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as
something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of
consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to
our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our
task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of
compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its
beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and
the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall
require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive."
(Albert Einstein, 1954)



I didn't know until today he also believed the egoist self was a delusion.

Jason

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