Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hello Tom, Other projects just give 2 or 3 pre-compiled downloads on their sites. I take it that this project doesn't have the skill-set to provide such a thing? Is that why people are getting so defensive about Evolution's inability to provide what every other project seems to be able to provide? If you folks just don't have the skills needed then how about we just tackle that first and get someone else to do it for you? The other projects you are referring to are likely smaller or are of a semi self contained nature. (E.g. Abiword, Libre Office or Open Office)? These projects are not tightly coupled to the Gnome Desktop. However Evolution is tightly coupled to the Gnome desktop making it difficult to ship a new version of Evolution against an old version of the Gnome desktop. The best analogy I can think of is this: you are asking Microsoft to ship a version of IE 11 that works with Windows XP. IE 11 depends far too much on internal components of the current Microsoft OS to run on an old version of the Microsoft desktop. You may say this is a design flaw, but it is how the software was original designed and continues to exist to this day. Evolution dependency to Gnome is similar to Internet Explorer dependency on the Windows Desktop. Also I think you miss the point. Evolution developers are working on pushing the code base forward for the latest Gnome Desktop. If they divided their effort to build packages for popular Linux distributions (let alone all Linux variants available), they wouldn't have time to develop new features. This would be counter productive anyway, as the popular distribution maintainers produce Evolution packages for their variant of Linux. So please enjoy the Evolution package carefully crafted by the distribution maintainer of your choosing. I personally choose Fedora and have been happy with my choice for a decade. Thanks, Rob ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
If you folks just don't have the skills needed I think there comes the moment where a firm DNFTT is the only appropriate further response Peter ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
[Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 14:24 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Quality often seems to come with quantity. Eh? In anarchist/co-operative groups it's often been the most disruptive people that got turned around by the nature of the group/organisation and become a driving force, even Chairperson or Company Secretary. What are you talking about? This is a FLOSS project. However to find those gems the group accepts tons of people and although most of those turn out to help in minor ways with easy things it's difficult to always see exactly what they are doing. No, with FLOSS the process of winnowing the developers happens naturally, with the emphasis being on people who winnow themselves out. 1. Easier to download and install. People here obviously find it easy to compile but What? You are engaging in blatant conflations. Users are not developers, users will never compile anything. most people out there haven't got a clue and find it too scary as a prospect. Much easier to download and install a competitor such as Thunderbird or Claws and miss out on all the amazing things Evo can do that those others can't. I install a LINUX distribution, then I install Evolution from there. THAT IS HOW LINUX SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION WORKS, VIA THE ***DISTRIBUTION*** - HENCE THE NAME DISTRIBUTION! 2. Some sort of forum There is one, you are in it! 3. A donations button And donate to whom? How many FLOSS projects have you actively participated in or contributed to? When you fixed the problem i was having and got Evo working on one machine i was almost ready to donate even though i am a little scottish and very careful about avoiding spending. If Evo had a donate button in easy reach i might have clicked it for some small amount, maybe $5 or $10. There are several websites that allow you to post bounties on project bugs. I have bounties on project bugs, including ones on Evolution. Some have been closed. Generally the developer's response is - I don't care. In the past I've offered as much as several hundred dollars on a bug, had it closed, and been told by the developer he didn't care about the bounty. -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awill...@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 11:35 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: There are several websites that allow you to post bounties on project bugs. I have bounties on project bugs, including ones on Evolution. Some have been closed. Generally the developer's response is - I don't care. In the past I've offered as much as several hundred dollars on a bug, had it closed, and been told by the developer he didn't care about the bounty. As a salaried developer of an open source company, it's unclear whether I'm legally able to collect bounties, as it could easily be *perceived* (even if not intended) as a form of bribery, which would run afoul of our Code of Business Conduct and Ethics. Surprisingly, especially at a place like Red Hat, I've not been able to find an explicit statement on our policy toward bounties, so I've asked our legal department to clarify. If and when I receive an answer, I'll post a follow up so our position is clear. I would guess past and present employees of other open source companies have been bound by similar legal uncertainty or restrictions, which may explain why you didn't get any takers. Matthew Barnes ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hi :) If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? You say that Evo is available from the downloads page. However, the only versions available from there need to be compiled in order to be used. If users are unable to compile anything then the downloads page has nothing that can be used by users. So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? Just wait until whichever distro i use happens to upgrade? You tell me to write to a 3rd party but then fail to give me an address of someone that will respond to my request. It makes no sense to have to write to a 3rd party in order to get your software. What is the downloads page for? It is obviously not for users to download Evolution for themselves to use so who is it for? Regards from Tom :) From: Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org To: evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 16:35 Subject: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page] snip / Users are not developers, users will never compile anything. most people out there haven't got a clue and find it too scary as a prospect. Much easier to download and install a competitor such as Thunderbird or Claws and miss out on all the amazing things Evo can do that those others can't. I install a LINUX distribution, then I install Evolution from there. THAT IS HOW LINUX SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION WORKS, VIA THE ***DISTRIBUTION*** - HENCE THE NAME DISTRIBUTION! snip /___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? Users very often compile by their own, this is common practise for *nix systems. So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? Just wait until whichever distro i use happens to upgrade? If you need latest version of Evolution, then use a distro that does provide this. I already mentioned that Arch Linux does provide latest binaries. _But_ a default Arch Linux has got no default mail user agent, it even comes without a default desktop environment, since a default install even comes without X. You have the choice to use what ever *nix, e.g. Linux distro you'll use or not use. _If_ you can't talk to the team of your distro, than use another distro. _If_ no Linux distro's team is interested in your opinion, try another *nix, e.g. FreeBSD or completely don't use a *nix. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? There is diversity. Some people compile (or use distros that require this). Some use precompiled packages (or distros that provide this). So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? They use a distribution that ships the latest version of Evo. andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hi :) So when i want to use Evolution i need to reboot the machine into a different distro? I guess i might be able to use a virtual machine right? Do you have a list of distros i can use Evolution on? Regards from Tom :) From: Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@rocketmail.com To: evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 20:31 Subject: Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page] On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? Users very often compile by their own, this is common practise for *nix systems. So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? Just wait until whichever distro i use happens to upgrade? If you need latest version of Evolution, then use a distro that does provide this. I already mentioned that Arch Linux does provide latest binaries. _But_ a default Arch Linux has got no default mail user agent, it even comes without a default desktop environment, since a default install even comes without X. You have the choice to use what ever *nix, e.g. Linux distro you'll use or not use. _If_ you can't talk to the team of your distro, than use another distro. _If_ no Linux distro's team is interested in your opinion, try another *nix, e.g. FreeBSD or completely don't use a *nix. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? They are not; nobody said they were. You say that Evo is available from the downloads page. I did not say any such thing. And it would depend upon your definition of Evo and your definition of available. However, the only versions available from there need to be compiled in order to be used. Correct, because DISTRIBUTIONS distribute FLOSS software. That is CRYSTAL @Y@ )@(@*@* CLEAR. And understood by everybody running a FLOSS OS/environment. It is called a DISTRIBUTION, for pete sakes. If users are unable to compile anything then the downloads page has nothing that can be used by users. Yep. So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? Just wait until whichever distro i use happens to upgrade? Yes. And the overall distribution does not need to, you just subscribe to a repository for that distribution which does. Standard practice. I'm on openSUSE, it is just a couple of clicks and I'm subscribe to the GNOME latest repo. Done. You tell me to write to a 3rd party but then fail to give me an address of someone that will respond to my request. You do not know what distribution you are using? Since they DISTRIBUTED the software to you... It makes no sense to have to write to a 3rd party in order to get your software. Okay, then stop using FLOSS. Because that is how it work 99.44% of the time. Some projects may choose to package on their own, and then they very frequently distribute packages that do not work correctly. What is the downloads page for? Don't know. It is obviously not for users to download Evolution for themselves to use so who is it for? Developers possibly, although they will almost certainly subscribe to a code repository. So maybe it doesn't really have a purpose; but then nobody uses it. Move on. -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awill...@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:54 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) So when i want to use Evolution i need to reboot the machine into a different distro? No. If you read what was written, this was only a recommendation _If_ you can't talk to the team of your distro. I guess the intention was more of a If you use a distribution which ships old packages, and you want recent packages, then maybe consider a different distribution. Or compile yourself. There's enough options. I guess i might be able to use a virtual machine right? Yes, distributions operating systems can be run in virtual machines. Do you have a list of distros i can use Evolution on? Any distribution which provides precompiled Evolution packages to you. Which should be any relevant distribution nowadays. (But that's already been written a few times on this mailing list.) andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 15:50 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: You tell me to write to a 3rd party but then fail to give me an address of someone that will respond to my request. You do not know what distribution you are using? Since they DISTRIBUTED the software to you... JFTR $ cat /etc/issue should show what distro is used and again http://distrowatch.com/ does show a few distros that are available. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:54 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Do you have a list of distros i can use Evolution on? You can do some work on your own. Perhaps Linux isn't what fits to your needs. Take a look at distrowatch and then check the policy and repositories of different distros. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:54 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) So when i want to use Evolution i need to reboot the machine into a different distro? I guess i might be able to use a virtual machine right? Do you have a list of distros i can use Evolution on? Install openSUSE zypper ar -f obs://GNOME:STABLE:3.8/openSUSE_12.3 GS3 zypper dup --from GS38 Works great. I'm always as close to current as I want to be. And, no doubt, there are ways to do this on other distributions. I do not know about them [nor do I much care]. All I know about other distros is that Ubuntu people are constantly constantly griping about how that linux-for-humans distributions is borking them up [and at the same time saying it is awesome...]. I've nominated a motto for openSUSE of LINUX for people who need to get work done, but I that probably is two much of a snub. :) http://dominique.leuenberger.net/blog/2013/04/gnome-3-8-for-opensuse-12-3-go-get-it/ -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awill...@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@rocketmail.comwrote: On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? Users very often compile by their own, this is common practise for *nix systems. It would be quite nice if Evolution would intentionally limit itself to the support libraries available in the current versions of Fedora, Ubuntu and Suse. Last time I tried to compile development Evolution I ended up building all of Gnome. I may as well have been using Gentoo. Sure, I know the pain. I personally have to develop software using only particular old versions of Boost and never use any C++11 features. In fact I have to stay compatible with G++ 4.1. So I feel sympathy but it is still better for Evolution end users and outsiders who want to hack on the code. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hi Tom, On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? I'm a user. My choice of Operating System is Linux and my choice of distribution (or flavour) of Linux happens to be Gentoo. More often than not, when a package is installed or updated in Gentoo, its compiled from scratch... Often what is distributed by the Gentoo Distribution system is very similar to what one may find on a Download site (ie Source). Where this gets very useful is for example with BIND (the DNS) software. Running 'named -V' shows me how BIND was compiled (the options to configure. So now I can go to ISC, Download the source of the latest version of BIND, then run the configure script with the same configuration the current running version has. After a make install - I have a new Nameserver. So - I find Download pages very useful. I don't always have to wait for the Gentoo Distribution gods (the 3rd party mentioned?) to get the latest version ready for me! I guess the other thing I like about Gentoo is I get to learn a little more about what is beneath the bonnet to the point I can better look after myself. Remember, (1) download, (2) unpackage (tar -xvzf package.tgz) (around here - explore what you have just unpacked, read the README's and other files like INSTALL and look for 'configure'. (3) ./configure (with options), (4) make, (5) make install. You say that Evo is available from the downloads page. However, the only versions available from there need to be compiled in order to be used. If users are unable to compile anything then the downloads page has nothing that can be used by users. I really don't follow this logic. So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? Just wait until whichever distro i use happens to upgrade? You tell me to write to a 3rd party but then fail to give me an address of someone that will respond to my request. It makes no sense to have to write to a 3rd party in order to get your software. These Third Party folk - often unpaid volunteers - like helping. They are also human If you ask politely, they will often help. You'd need to find out who the relevant person (or group) is for you. This depends on your flavour or distribution of Linux and perhaps on what version you are currently running. Try using Google. Perhaps your Distribution has a knowledge website? What is the downloads page for? It is obviously not for users to download Evolution for themselves to use so who is it for? Regards from Tom :) __ From: Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org To: evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 16:35 Subject: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page] snip / Users are not developers, users will never compile anything. most people out there haven't got a clue and find it too scary as a prospect. Much easier to download and install a competitor such as Thunderbird or Claws and miss out on all the amazing things Evo can do that those others can't. I install a LINUX distribution, then I install Evolution from there. THAT IS HOW LINUX SOFTWARE DISTRIBUTION WORKS, VIA THE ***DISTRIBUTION*** - HENCE THE NAME DISTRIBUTION! snip / ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list -- . . ___. .__ Posix Systems - (South) Africa /| /| / /__ m...@posix.co.za - Mark J Elkins, Cisco CCIE / |/ |ARK \_/ /__ LKINS Tel: +27 12 807 0590 Cell: +27 82 601 0496 smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 16:13 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:54 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Do you have a list of distros i can use Evolution on? Install openSUSE zypper ar -f obs://GNOME:STABLE:3.8/openSUSE_12.3 GS3 zypper dup --from GS38 Works great. I'm always as close to current as I want to be. OR, if you're not comfortable with the terminal: Click yast Click Manage Software Search evolution Click Evolution check box Click Finish Yast is considered by many, if not most, to be one of the best reasons to choose openSUSE over another distribution. All I know about other distros is that Ubuntu people are constantly constantly griping about how that linux-for-humans distributions is borking them up [and at the same time saying it is awesome...]. Hear, hear! I installed and tried Ububtu and found it unstable. Not awesome at all. Then again, it was free for the downloading. I tried it, didn't care for it, and so removed it. At no time did I join their forum to complain and demand that it be changed to suit my liking. I've nominated a motto for openSUSE of LINUX for people who need to get work done, but I that probably is two much of a snub. :) It is however, exactly why I use, and have used it now for quite a long time (since 8.1). And, I've never compiled anything. The one or two times I tried with some esoteric package, and failed, someone on the openSUSE forum jumped right in, compiled it for me and provided the binary within hours of asking. In all these years, I've never felt the need to complain to the people who (mostly without financial compensation) provide functional, secure, stable software for me to use at the cost of a simple download. It would never occur to me to threaten them with the removal of their software and the use of a competitor's product, as I'm sure most developers of FOSS view this with the same feeling of humor as I. I'll sure be pleased when this thread expires! Bart ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hi :) Ok, got it. So each time Evolution produces a new release then we all just change distro (except those using a rolling release, if it's one that has upgraded). Regards from Tom :) From: Andre Klapper ak...@gmx.net To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: evolution-list@gnome.org evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 20:49 Subject: Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page] On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? There is diversity. Some people compile (or use distros that require this). Some use precompiled packages (or distros that provide this). So how are users expected to get the latest versions of Evo? They use a distribution that ships the latest version of Evo. andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 22:33 +0200, Mark Elkins wrote: Remember, (1) download, (2) unpackage (tar -xvzf package.tgz) (around here - explore what you have just unpacked, read the README's and other files like INSTALL and look for 'configure'. (3) ./configure (with options), (4) make, (5) make install. This isn't a good hint for those who are on distros that use a package management. For Suse and Debian/Ubuntu at least a make install should be replaced by a checkinstall. For Debian there are different other ways to build a package than using checkinstall, e.g. the take a package and replace it's source by a newer version, edit changelog and rules and then run libtoolize --force --copy --automake, aclocal, autoreconf, debuild -b -us -uc way. However, not all software can be compiled by the configure-make-makeinstall-rule. From all the ways to compile software and to build binary packages I prefer Arch's PKGBUILDs. Third Party folk Real issues with third party packages are, that they easily can conflict with libs from official repositories, especially for those distros who do this disgusting split of stuff, that isn't split by upstream, e.g. Suse and Debian/Ubuntu do it in a very odd way, by split what later is in bin and lib, but that belongs to each other. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 22:29 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: So each time Evolution produces a new release then we all just change distro (except those using a rolling release, if it's one that has upgraded). I for example don't report each minor bug to a bug tracker. I'm using latest version of Evolution, but I also could live with an outdated version from e.g. Ubuntu and indeed, I share the pop/smpt mail folder by Arch and Debian/Ubuntu using different releases of Evolution. If you don't need latest features and you won't report each minor bug, then there's no need for version hunting. Distros have reasons to ship with outdated software. Ubuntu has got many official subgroups such as Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, you likely will find a team that isn't conform with Steve Bill Shuttleworth or what ever his first names are. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
What is the downloads page for? It's for pointing people at the source code - remember, this is FOSS, one of the requirements is that the source code is freely and easily available. It is obviously not for users to download Evolution for themselves to use so who is it for? Some do use it, but it's certainly not something that *most* users would do. Indeed, to compile Evo, it's usually better to use something like JHBuild which would get the source from the Git repository. I consider myself to be a fairly competent Linux user of many years and perfectly capable of compiling packages. But I resist the temptation to compile packages that are available in repositories because it means that the packages are taken out of the standard update mechanism; I would have to monitor various sites for critical/security updates and then recompile the code everytime it's updated. Far better to let the distro maintainers do all the QC and compatibility checks. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Do you have a list of distros i can use Evolution on? Yes, all of them. You can use Evolution on any distro. You might also find that most distros even package it up for you for your convenience. Tell me, are you being deliberately obtuse in asking all these bizarre illogical questions? Or is there a reason for it? P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 23:22 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: What is the downloads page for? It's for pointing people at the source code - remember, this is FOSS, one of the requirements is that the source code is freely and easily available. The distro, or anybody who distribute FLOSS has to make the source available, not somebody who develops something ;). I can do what I want at home, as even a big project could do, without providing a source code, even if GPL'ed stuff is used, as long it isn't distributed. t's usually better to use something like JHBuild which would get the source from the Git repository. I use git to pull from a git source tree ;). But a tarball on a download site usually provides the current stable branch, while by git you quasi need to search for the stable branch. Were do you get the information from, that not most users compile from source? Is there a link to this information available? ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Were do you get the information from, that not most users compile from source? Is there a link to this information available? Sorry, I used my experience, I apologise that the statement isn't backed up by a research project. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hi :) Why was it good when someone else compiled it for you? Was the compiled one easier to install? This thread keeps going round in circles. 2 frequent assertions are that * All users find it easy to compile because it's so easy * No users can compile because it's tricky We have seen people go on about this or that libraries and potential problems. Several different sets of instructions with apparent disagreement about which might or might not work, how to mitigate or prepare against problems. Other projects just give 2 or 3 pre-compiled downloads on their sites. I take it that this project doesn't have the skill-set to provide such a thing? Is that why people are getting so defensive about Evolution's inability to provide what every other project seems to be able to provide? If you folks just don't have the skills needed then how about we just tackle that first and get someone else to do it for you? Regards from Tom :) From: Bart montana_evolution_u...@hardinmt.us To: evolution-list@gnome.org Sent: Monday, 26 August 2013, 22:10 Subject: Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page] snip / someone on the openSUSE forum jumped right in, compiled it for me and provided the binary within hours of asking. snip /___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 23:48 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: Were do you get the information from, that not most users compile from source? Is there a link to this information available? Sorry, I used my experience, I apologise that the statement isn't backed up by a research project. I guess most Linux is used by Android users, satellite tv receiver users etc., so yes, most people using Linux even aren't aware that they're using Linux and they unlikely compile anything, but regarding to Linux distributions I'm uncertain. Less people download Gentoo, Arch etc., than people download Ubuntu, Suse etc., but people who download Ubuntu often don't use Linux, they just test it and even those who use Ubuntu, Suse etc., tend to download a new release again and again, unlikely that e.g. an Arch user will do this. People who have special needs regarding to Linux userspace very often need to compile by their own, such as rt patched kernels for pro-audio usage. Compiling is the old school *nix way, has this really changed? It hasn't for most mailing lists I join. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On 26 August 2013 23:55, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Is that why people are getting so defensive about Evolution's inability to provide what every other project seems to be able to provide? The current software set available in most Linux distros runs to several thousand packages. A typical installation runs to several hundred of these. For example my laptop currently has 1647 installed packages, of which *not a single one* was downloaded from a package-specific download site, i.e. the entire set came from distro repositories. The number of widely-used software projects which support Linux and have individual multi-distro binary download sites independent of the official repositories are at most in the 10's, being mainly things like Libreoffice, Thunderbird, Vlc etc. which are multi-platform (i.e. not Linux-specific). IOW your assertion regarding every other project is flat wrong. If you folks just don't have the skills needed then how about we just tackle that first and get someone else to do it for you? Because we're not remotely interested, as has been explained over and over again. That doesn't stop you from doing it if you want to. Good luck with that. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On 27 August 2013 00:08, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@rocketmail.com wrote: On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 23:48 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: Were do you get the information from, that not most users compile from source? Is there a link to this information available? Sorry, I used my experience, I apologise that the statement isn't backed up by a research project. I guess most Linux is used by Android users, satellite tv receiver users etc., so yes, most people using Linux even aren't aware that they're using Linux and they unlikely compile anything, but regarding to Linux distributions I'm uncertain. Less people download Gentoo, Arch etc., than people download Ubuntu, Suse etc., but people who download Ubuntu often don't use Linux, they just test it and even those who use Ubuntu, Suse etc., tend to download a new release again and again, unlikely that e.g. an Arch user will do this. People who have special needs regarding to Linux userspace very often need to compile by their own, such as rt patched kernels for pro-audio usage. Compiling is the old school *nix way, has this really changed? It hasn't for most mailing lists I join. That's by its nature a self-selecting list. I would side with Pete on this, i.e. I don't think self-compiling is at all common. However this is getting even more OT than the original topic of this thread. I suggest further discussion of this take place off-list. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 00:25 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On 26 August 2013 23:55, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Is that why people are getting so defensive about Evolution's inability to provide what every other project seems to be able to provide? The current software set available in most Linux distros runs to several thousand packages. A typical installation runs to several hundred of these. For example my laptop currently has 1647 installed packages, of which *not a single one* was downloaded from a package-specific download site, i.e. the entire set came from distro repositories. The number of widely-used software projects which support Linux and have individual multi-distro binary download sites independent of the official repositories are at most in the 10's, being mainly things like Libreoffice, Thunderbird, Vlc etc. which are multi-platform (i.e. not Linux-specific). Sorry, I'm aware that I shouldn't send a duplicated message, if I randomly didn't select the correct account that is used to subscribed to this list, so just an acception, I don't do it for other mails I sent today. Forwarded Message From: Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net To: evolution-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page] Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 01:23:44 +0200 On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 23:55 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Is that why people are getting so defensive about Evolution's inability to provide what every other project seems to be able to provide? Most projects don't provide downloads for special distribution. Count the projects on http://sourceforge.net/ and https://github.com/ and ... and compare it with the few who provide DEB and RPM packages on a homepage. Not seldom provided packages don't work. For many, likely for most distros DEB and RPM packages are completely useless. Often even a provided package for software at least needs to compile kernel modules, sure it could be automated by dkms, maintainers could provide packages that fit to each kernel update by a distro. But about what are we talking here? About Linux userspace, configurable to the users needs or about a Linux userspace, that fakes to be a replacement for Microsoft and Apple? I won the impression that most of those who continue to discuss with you have another opinion than you've got. Most others likely disagree with you too. However, I try to stop continuing this discussion. I guess now everybody said everything repeated several times. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 01:29 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 00:25 +0100, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On 26 August 2013 23:55, Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I won the impression that most of those who continue to discuss with you have another opinion than you've got. Most others likely disagree with you too. However, I try to stop continuing this discussion. I guess now everybody said everything repeated several times. My last words regarding to this thread(s), I was talking to Tom, not to Patrick. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
Hi Tom, On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 22:33 +0200, Mark Elkins wrote: Hi Tom, On Mon, 2013-08-26 at 20:15 +0100, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) If users will never compile anything then why are we expected to do so? I'm a user. My choice of Operating System is Linux and my choice of distribution (or flavour) of Linux happens to be Gentoo. More often than not, when a package is installed or updated in Gentoo, its compiled from scratch... Often what is distributed by the Gentoo Distribution system is very similar to what one may find on a Download site (ie Source). Where this gets very useful is for example with BIND (the DNS) software. Running 'named -V' shows me how BIND was compiled (the options to configure. So now I can go to ISC, Download the source of the latest version of BIND, then run the configure script with the same configuration the current running version has. After a make install - I have a new Nameserver. So - I find Download pages very useful. I don't always have to wait for the Gentoo Distribution gods (the 3rd party mentioned?) to get the latest version ready for me! I guess the other thing I like about Gentoo is I get to learn a little more about what is beneath the bonnet to the point I can better look after myself. Remember, (1) download, (2) unpackage (tar -xvzf package.tgz) (around here - explore what you have just unpacked, read the README's and other files like INSTALL and look for 'configure'. (3) ./configure (with options), (4) make, (5) make install. I case you find Gentoo and its way of compiling packages too much of a hassle, take a look at Sabayon Linux. It's based on Gentoo, compatible with Gentoo solutions and its rolling release, in fact you about 1-2GB of updates every week. It does have a package manager (entropy), which is the recommended way of installing stuff. And that stuff is pretty much cutting edge. Maybe Evolution is not the latest version (I have 3.8.4), but I find it current enough for my purposes, which is receiving/writing email rather than getting into a huff about bugs in the latest (not so stable) release (And then complaining on this mailinglist). That is not up-to-date enough for you? Go ahead and compile the Gentoo way (yes you can do that on Sabayon if you wish). http://www.sabayon.org/ https://packages.sabayon.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabayon_Linux If you rather into Debian use apt-pinning and take the Evo packages from the experimental branch, that should be pretty cutting edge! :-p https://wiki.debian.org/AptPreferences http://jaqque.sbih.org/kplug/apt-pinning.html Pascal [snip] ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Idealism face plants against asphalt [Was: downloads page]
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 01:45 +0200, Pascal Hasko Bernhard wrote: If you rather into Debian use apt-pinning and take the Evo packages from the experimental branch, that should be pretty cutting edge! Sorry, I dislike to chime in again, but don't recommend something like this. Experimental provides 3.8.4 and it likely will break a Debian production environment, pinning unlikely does voodoo and Debian usually comes with a dependency hell, if people try to use current software versions. [rocketmouse@archlinux ~]$ pacman -Q evolution evolution 3.8.5-1 Current Stable Release Package Version Evolution 3.8.5 - https://projects.gnome.org/evolution/download.shtml Use Arch Linux or any other distro that provide current stable binary packages. If you e.g. use Suse and a third party repository for such a distro, ensure if you e.g. should have payed for support, if they still will support. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
