[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be pleased to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. Thank you for the offering of your son but my niece is already married to a rather doting Israeli. She also converted to Judaism and her three children have rather beautiful Israeli names. I did get in trouble one time though for bringing some non-Kosher grape juice into their kitchen and had to keep it up in my bedroom instead of putting it in their fridge. I now check all the labels on the foods I buy while staying at their place. Kedem Also, my lovely daughter has been dating a Modern Orthodox man, so my family is learning quite a bit. So here's some background on The Day: Yom Kippur http://judaism.about.com/od/holidays/a/yomkippur.htm is the Jewish Day of Atonement and is considered the holiest and most solemn day on the Jewish calendar. Because Yom Kippur is a fast day, it is appropriate to wish your Jewish friends an Easy Fast on Yom Kippur, or in Hebrew Tzom Kal. The traditional Yom Kippur greeting is G'mar Hatimah Tovah or May You Be Sealed for a Good Year (in the Book of Life). This reflects the Jewish view of Yom Kippur as the day when God seals our fates (determined by our actions) for the upcoming year in the Books of Life or Death. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I'll be the English Equestrian Supply luncher as opposed to the Tack Store Owner. food again more? ok ffl posters, Name Your Game!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Dan, thank you so much for posting this wonderful knowledge about Judaism. I
love all the Hebrew aphorisms and sayings. I can totally understand why Dr.
Nancy and the Druke's wife converted.
On Friday, October 3, 2014 6:06 AM, danfriedman2002
no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :
Dear Ann,
Thank you for the lunch invitation.
You will be pleased to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled
to be invited.
We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a
hearty appetite.
Your appreciative guests.
P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma)
I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the
ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all
talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have
a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist
living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover?
He comes highly recommended.
Thank you for the offering of your son but my niece is already married to a
rather doting Israeli. She also converted to Judaism and her three children
have rather beautiful Israeli names. I did get in trouble one time though for
bringing some non-Kosher grape juice into their kitchen and had to keep it up
in my bedroom instead of putting it in their fridge. I now check all the labels
on the foods I buy while staying at their place.
Kedem
Also, my lovely daughter has been dating a Modern Orthodox man, so my family
is learning quite a bit. So here's some background on The Day:
Yom Kippur is the Jewish Day of Atonement and is considered the holiest and
most solemn day on the Jewish calendar. Because Yom Kippur is a fast day, it is
appropriate to wish your Jewish friends an Easy Fast on Yom Kippur, or in
Hebrew Tzom Kal. The traditional Yom Kippur greeting is G'mar Hatimah Tovah
or May You Be Sealed for a Good Year (in the Book of Life). This reflects the
Jewish view of Yom Kippur as the day when God seals our fates (determined by
our actions) for the upcoming year in the Books of Life or Death.
And the #4 was as delicious as you said.
Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all
those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost...
Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Dan, thank you so much for posting this wonderful knowledge about Judaism. I love all the Hebrew aphorisms and sayings. I can totally understand why Dr. Nancy and the Druke's wife converted. It is always good for a Doctor's reputation to have both MD and Jew (at least in the name). Here's my favorite headline: A Beatle Marries a Jew A Beatle marries a Jew: Paul McCartney weds Nancy Shevell | Hollywood Jew http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ A Beatle marries a Jew: Paul McCartney weds Nancy S... http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ Even after enduring the death of one spouse and the divorce of another, Paul McCartney hasn’t soured on marriage. View on www.jewishjournal.com http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ Preview by Yahoo A Beatle marries a Jew On Friday, October 3, 2014 6:06 AM, danfriedman2002 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be pleased to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. Thank you for the offering of your son but my niece is already married to a rather doting Israeli. She also converted to Judaism and her three children have rather beautiful Israeli names. I did get in trouble one time though for bringing some non-Kosher grape juice into their kitchen and had to keep it up in my bedroom instead of putting it in their fridge. I now check all the labels on the foods I buy while staying at their place. Kedem Also, my lovely daughter has been dating a Modern Orthodox man, so my family is learning quite a bit. So here's some background on The Day: Yom Kippur http://judaism.about.com/od/holidays/a/yomkippur.htm is the Jewish Day of Atonement and is considered the holiest and most solemn day on the Jewish calendar. Because Yom Kippur is a fast day, it is appropriate to wish your Jewish friends an Easy Fast on Yom Kippur, or in Hebrew Tzom Kal. The traditional Yom Kippur greeting is G'mar Hatimah Tovah or May You Be Sealed for a Good Year (in the Book of Life). This reflects the Jewish view of Yom Kippur as the day when God seals our fates (determined by our actions) for the upcoming year in the Books of Life or Death. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : Kedem Also, my lovely daughter has been dating a Modern Orthodox man, so my family is learning quite a bit. So here's some background on The Day: Yom Kippur http://judaism.about.com/od/holidays/a/yomkippur.htm is the Jewish Day of Atonement and is considered the holiest and most solemn day on the Jewish calendar. Because Yom Kippur is a fast day, it is appropriate to wish your Jewish friends an Easy Fast on Yom Kippur, or in Hebrew Tzom Kal. The traditional Yom Kippur greeting is G'mar Hatimah Tovah or May You Be Sealed for a Good Year (in the Book of Life). This reflects the Jewish view of Yom Kippur as the day when God seals our fates (determined by our actions) for the upcoming year in the Books of Life or Death. I love to hear about the deep traditions that have prevailed over time. I know that one thing my niece loves about the things that she observes and practices in her new faith is that it really brings them together as a family. There is much time spent together recognizing and practicing the various holidays and traditions and she finds it comforting and meaningful. If I were to guess, I think she also feels the Judaic traditions allow her children a healthy counterpoint to the superficiality that is our world today, that barrages us, and perhaps children in particular. All I know is that she feels enriched by it all. For me, I am a bit more of a free wheeler. I adhere to no particular faith or religious tradition and perhaps that results from lack of discipline in that context or perhaps I just find the general world around me the most intriguing and interesting. Monotheistic pagan that I am.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Dan, thank you so much for posting this wonderful knowledge about Judaism. I love all the Hebrew aphorisms and sayings. I can totally understand why Dr. Nancy and the Druke's wife converted. It is always good for a Doctor's reputation to have both MD and Jew (at least in the name). Here's my favorite headline: A Beatle Marries a Jew A Beatle marries a Jew: Paul McCartney weds Nancy Shevell | Hollywood Jew http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ A Beatle marries a Jew: Paul McCartney weds Nancy S... http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ Even after enduring the death of one spouse and the divorce of another, Paul McCartney hasn’t soured on marriage. View on www.jewishjournal.com http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/a_beatle_marries_a_jew_paul_mccartney_weds_nancy_shevell_20111011/ Preview by Yahoo A Beatle marries a Jew That's funny. I wonder if she had been Protestant if they would have said, A Beatle Marries a Protestant. Nah, way too boring.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Let it go reminds me of this PSA which gets played far too often on local radio: http://www.hulkshare.com/shloimynotik/meditation-mom-60-mix On 10/02/2014 05:00 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Barry, Barry, Barry, did anyone say you had to meditate to have experiences of higher states of consciousnesses. Let it go Barry. Time to let it go. You've got to expand your world past Maharishi, and the TM organization. It's a big world Barry. Lot's of things to see and explore. The TM movement is just on little bit of it. Exppd those horizons a bit. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : *From:* LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:23 PM *Subject:* [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. All of them are just normal people off the street. Not one of them meditates. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. THere were several people interviewed who responded in a way that suggested to me (and to Fred also, from what he has said) that they were in GC or UC, but there weren't enough people in each possible sub-group (CC/GC/UC) to do a detailed analysis of what the physiological correlates were for each category of enlightened response to the interviewer's request to Describe your self. Here's examples of the various kinds of responses that Fred got. Does it seem like anyone might be in GC or UC rather than CC? L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : But CC really isn't enlightenment, it's just 'glorified ignorance' as M said. You get inner wakefulness and silence along with a deluded mind. So this paper is not about enlightened people. It's about people who have a certain degree of opening to spiritual experience, but far short of the goal. Fred's problem is he does not have access to currently used state-of-the-art equipment in the study of consciousness, and even if he did, he probably would not be allowed by the TMO to use it (fMRI for example), and he is probably under some other research restrictions as well, as he likely would be booted if he published any negative results. Fred: 'The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with re[s]pect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright.' He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Fred Travis published research on enlightened people. This review paper looks at the research: Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New Yor... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full 1 Shear, J. 2006. The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions. Princeton, NJ: The Infinity Foundation. 2 Travis, F. J. Shear. View on onlinelibrary.wiley.com http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Preview by Yahoo Fred is doing new research on people in CC and will be using more sophisticated EEG analysis, and possibly other measures as well. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : But CC really isn't enlightenment, it's just 'glorified ignorance' as M said. You get inner wakefulness and silence along with a deluded mind. So this paper is not about enlightened people. It's about people who have a certain degree of opening to spiritual experience, but far short of the goal. Fred's problem is he does not have access to currently used state-of-the-art equipment in the study of consciousness, and even if he did, he probably would not be allowed by the TMO to use it (fMRI for example), and he is probably under some other research restrictions as well, as he likely would be booted if he published any negative results. Fred: 'The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with re[s]pect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright.' He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Fred Travis published research on enlightened people. This review paper looks at the research: Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New Yor... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full 1 Shear, J. 2006. The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions. Princeton, NJ: The Infinity Foundation. 2 Travis, F. J. Shear. View on onlinelibrary.wiley.com http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Preview by Yahoo Fred is doing new research on people in CC and will be using more sophisticated EEG analysis, and possibly other measures as well. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : But CC really isn't enlightenment, it's just 'glorified ignorance' as M said. You get inner wakefulness and silence along with a deluded mind. So this paper is not about enlightened people. It's about people who have a certain degree of opening to spiritual experience, but far short of the goal. Fred's problem is he does not have access to currently used state-of-the-art equipment in the study of consciousness, and even if he did, he probably would not be allowed by the TMO to use it (fMRI for example), and he is probably under some other research restrictions as well, as he likely would be booted if he published any negative results. Fred: 'The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with re[s]pect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright.' He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Fred Travis published research on enlightened people. This review paper looks at the research: Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New Yor... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full 1 Shear, J. 2006. The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions. Princeton, NJ: The Infinity Foundation. 2 Travis, F. J. Shear. View on onlinelibrary.wiley.com http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Preview by Yahoo Fred is doing new research on people in CC and will be using more sophisticated EEG analysis, and possibly other measures as well. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:23 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. All of them are just normal people off the street. Not one of them meditates. Go figure.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:23 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. All of them are just normal people off the street. Not one of them meditates. Go figure. And your point is what? Oh wait, there is no point, you were just using the witnessing sleep subject to show how stupid TM'ers are. Got it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:23 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. All of them are just normal people off the street. Not one of them meditates. Go figure. And your point is what? Oh wait, there is no point, you were just using the witnessing sleep subject to show how stupid TM'ers are. Got it. Confounded Barry REALLY DOES BELIEVE that he can confound others. But that's another kettle of fish. Still tragic though.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma)
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:23 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. All of them are just normal people off the street. Not one of them meditates. Go figure. And your point is what? Oh wait, there is no point, you were just using the witnessing sleep subject to show how stupid TM'ers are. Got it. Confounded Barry REALLY DOES BELIEVE that he can confound others. But that's another kettle of fish. Still tragic though. I must step away from the discussion for a brief time. I have, just now, located a copy of Sleep and Dreams Compiled By Jayne Gackenback in my library. Jayne did her work near some of you, at the University of Northern Iowa, so some may know her. I'll report back. Cheers!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Lenglish I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. What was the measurement / validation criteria for witnessing sleep? The validity and usefulness of the studies findings correlate with the degree of witnessing sleep validation, with simply self-reporting being on the low end of the scale. Problems with self-reporting are extensive. Among them, words and concepts mean different things to different people. Two people have the same experience may rate themselves differently (Yes vs No) due to differences in how they interpret witnessing sleep. Second, in a sub-culture that places value and status on witnessing sleep, a me too, look at me phenomenon may arise when asked if one witnesses sleep. Third, related to the above, may be wish fulfillment -- the mind takes strands of experience that may relate to witnessing sleep and weaves a satisfying interpretation such that one actual believes they are witnessing sleep when in fact they are not. Fourth, subjects often try to please researchers telling them what they think the researchers want to hear. Many other weaknesses.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Turquoise said: ...And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. ... Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. ... When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity Of the four stages of Non-REM sleep, in Stage 1, upon wakening, one may feel as if he or she has not slept. In Stage 2, muscles relax, we lose consciousness of the environment, etc as a preparation for deep sleep. This is not yet deep sleep and a sense of inner wakefulness in Stage 2 is more likely than in deep sleep. Stages 3 and 4 are the deep sleep states. However, as we age, Stages 3 and 4 become less, often significantly. Stage 1 and 2 of Non REM sleep are more conducive of the experience of being awake / conscious (though not necessarily of the environment). Those past 50 and / or with sleep disorders that reduce or eliminate stage 3 and 4 stage non REM sleep may be more likely to experience witnessing sleep. Reduction or elimination of Stage 3 and 4 Non REM sleep is not a good thing. A strong Stage 3 and 4 sleep architecture is important for many sleep and waking functions. Lack of sleep (not exclusively stage 3 and 4, however, however weak stage 3 and 4 negatively affect other sleep stages) contributes to lower proficiency in most cognitive functions, including memory consolidation and working memory. Working memory is a highly critical factor in intelligence and performance across a wide span of activities. Lack of adequate sleep also contributes to attention disorders, including the tendency of the mind to wander, not being able to sustain attention on a focussed task. Sparaig points out that the study shows positive correlation of witnessing sleep with wandering mind -- which raises the question of whether (one of many possible hypotheses and models ) the states experienced by the subjects are due to reduced quality of sleep (poor stage 3 and 4 sleep architectured) resulting in attention deficits, reduced working memory capacity, and subsequent reduction of applied intelligence .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Witnessing sleep isn't directly correlated with wandering mind.: The EEG pattern and general location of active brain centers during pure consciousness is similar to normal mind wandering except the EEG is a bit slower, far more coherent and the power in the EEG frequencies that are associated with active thinking and perception are lower. As Maharishi sez, the mind has been allowed to wander towards its level of least excitation. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : Turquoise said: ...And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. ... Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. ... When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity Of the four stages of Non-REM sleep, in Stage 1, upon wakening, one may feel as if he or she has not slept. In Stage 2, muscles relax, we lose consciousness of the environment, etc as a preparation for deep sleep. This is not yet deep sleep and a sense of inner wakefulness in Stage 2 is more likely than in deep sleep. Stages 3 and 4 are the deep sleep states. However, as we age, Stages 3 and 4 become less, often significantly. Stage 1 and 2 of Non REM sleep are more conducive of the experience of being awake / conscious (though not necessarily of the environment). Those past 50 and / or with sleep disorders that reduce or eliminate stage 3 and 4 stage non REM sleep may be more likely to experience witnessing sleep. Reduction or elimination of Stage 3 and 4 Non REM sleep is not a good thing. A strong Stage 3 and 4 sleep architecture is important for many sleep and waking functions. Lack of sleep (not exclusively stage 3 and 4, however, however weak stage 3 and 4 negatively affect other sleep stages) contributes to lower proficiency in most cognitive functions, including memory consolidation and working memory. Working memory is a highly critical factor in intelligence and performance across a wide span of activities. Lack of adequate sleep also contributes to attention disorders, including the tendency of the mind to wander, not being able to sustain attention on a focussed task. Sparaig points out that the study shows positive correlation of witnessing sleep with wandering mind -- which raises the question of whether (one of many possible hypotheses and models ) the states experienced by the subjects are due to reduced quality of sleep (poor stage 3 and 4 sleep architectured) resulting in attention deficits, reduced working memory capacity, and subsequent reduction of applied intelligence .
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
The subjects self-reported having pure consciousness at all times, including witnessing sleep, as i understand it. And the measures included EEG, not just interview questions. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : Lenglish I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. What was the measurement / validation criteria for witnessing sleep? The validity and usefulness of the studies findings correlate with the degree of witnessing sleep validation, with simply self-reporting being on the low end of the scale. Problems with self-reporting are extensive. Among them, words and concepts mean different things to different people. Two people have the same experience may rate themselves differently (Yes vs No) due to differences in how they interpret witnessing sleep. Second, in a sub-culture that places value and status on witnessing sleep, a me too, look at me phenomenon may arise when asked if one witnesses sleep. Third, related to the above, may be wish fulfillment -- the mind takes strands of experience that may relate to witnessing sleep and weaves a satisfying interpretation such that one actual believes they are witnessing sleep when in fact they are not. Fourth, subjects often try to please researchers telling them what they think the researchers want to hear. Many other weaknesses.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
The discussion is the conclusion, the typical end of any scientific paper. If this section is missing, what was the point of the paper? This part of the paper tells the reader what the researcher considers the conclusion drawn from the results of the study, often suggesting further lines of research etc. The words 'cosmic consciousness' nor its abbreviation 'CC' does not appear in this summing up of the research, though these terms appear appears prominently earlier in the paper; the abbreviation CC does not appear in the paper. That is rather curious. For the reader not familiar with this terminology, the connexion might not be drawn. I have had awareness during sleep as the result of medications (a long time ago), awareness during sleep might have other causes, so I think Fred down peddled the result in not making more of it at the end. While awareness during sleep is a common phenomenon in spiritual traditions it is so far not a standard way of describing consciousness in scientific circles. Perhaps Fred is not trying to push the envelope here. But not re-mentioning CC as one of the points of the paper and only mentioning it as an 'integration of transcendental experiences' kind of dilutes the effect of states of consciousness he seems to be promoting in the paper. I do not consider any of the states of consciousness as states of consciousness. Consciousness is mysterious and it is integral, always the same, Fred is describing states of the mind, which seem to be the results of the functioning of the brain. Consciousness, while we all know it is there, has no scientific definition, and you cannot define states of something which is undefined. Consciousness is the one undefined and undefinable value of human experience, and I think it will remain outside the purview of research. But we will find out a lot about the brain and its functioning. What Fred is researching is the contents of consciousness, the variable aspects of experience. If consciousness is absolute, it cannot have variable states. The nature of absolute does not really come into experience clearly until BC; until then you have 'reflections' of various states of mind in consciousness. And as I said, Fred probably has his hands tied, since at least while at MUM under the eye of the TMO, he cannot come to too many conclusions that contradict movement philosophy. All the research you cite is a prequel to CC, mostly a foretelling of CC, hinting at CC, so it does not have much relevance to enlightenment, as even UC is unfinished business in the enlightenment realm. And once that business is over, everything is back where you started. Much Ado about Nothing. There have been people who have gone from WC to BC in a flash, so all the intermediate stuff is technically not necessary because enlightenment does not reveal anything that was not already present in WC, although in practice one seems to need to 'do stuff' to come to realisation. All that that happens is certain mistaken thoughts we have about life, go away, finally. And then life goes on, as it always had. From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. Er, talk about selective quoting. There's no conclusion section, but the discussion section, which you only partially quote, actually starts out talking about the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming and sleeping (CC). To suggest that he doesn't mention it when its the first line of the first paragraph, is, well, overtly deceptive: Discussion Brain patterns that defined transcendental experiences during TM practice and the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming, and sleeping were mainly found in frontal brain areas. This suggests that frontal circuits may play a critical role in transcendental experiences and the growth of higher states of consciousness. These states could be called higher states in that (1) the subject/object relationship is different in these states compared to waking, sleeping, and dreaming; (2) the sense of self is more expanded in these states; and (3) the physiological patterns are distinct from those during waking, dreaming, and sleeping. The development of higher states may be an extension of the developmental trajectory that began as a toddler and continued into adulthood, supporting the emergence of adult abstract reasoning. Brain development begins in posterior sensory areas, which myelinate by age four. Posterior areas process sensory experiences and create the concrete present. Activity in posterior areas are associated with the first two stages of cognitive development described by Piaget—the sensorimotor and preoperational stages.[53
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Did you miss that this was a review paper, not a study? and the very definition of CC is the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming, and sleeping so the fact that he doesn't use CC should be taken that he is talking to a mainstream audience, rather than some group of TMers. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : The discussion is the conclusion, the typical end of any scientific paper. If this section is missing, what was the point of the paper? This part of the paper tells the reader what the researcher considers the conclusion drawn from the results of the study, often suggesting further lines of research etc. The words 'cosmic consciousness' nor its abbreviation 'CC' does not appear in this summing up of the research, though these terms appear appears prominently earlier in the paper; the abbreviation CC does not appear in the paper. That is rather curious. For the reader not familiar with this terminology, the connexion might not be drawn. I have had awareness during sleep as the result of medications (a long time ago), awareness during sleep might have other causes, so I think Fred down peddled the result in not making more of it at the end. While awareness during sleep is a common phenomenon in spiritual traditions it is so far not a standard way of describing consciousness in scientific circles. Perhaps Fred is not trying to push the envelope here. But not re-mentioning CC as one of the points of the paper and only mentioning it as an 'integration of transcendental experiences' kind of dilutes the effect of states of consciousness he seems to be promoting in the paper. I do not consider any of the states of consciousness as states of consciousness. Consciousness is mysterious and it is integral, always the same, Fred is describing states of the mind, which seem to be the results of the functioning of the brain. Consciousness, while we all know it is there, has no scientific definition, and you cannot define states of something which is undefined. Consciousness is the one undefined and undefinable value of human experience, and I think it will remain outside the purview of research. But we will find out a lot about the brain and its functioning. What Fred is researching is the contents of consciousness, the variable aspects of experience. If consciousness is absolute, it cannot have variable states. The nature of absolute does not really come into experience clearly until BC; until then you have 'reflections' of various states of mind in consciousness. And as I said, Fred probably has his hands tied, since at least while at MUM under the eye of the TMO, he cannot come to too many conclusions that contradict movement philosophy. All the research you cite is a prequel to CC, mostly a foretelling of CC, hinting at CC, so it does not have much relevance to enlightenment, as even UC is unfinished business in the enlightenment realm. And once that business is over, everything is back where you started. Much Ado about Nothing. There have been people who have gone from WC to BC in a flash, so all the intermediate stuff is technically not necessary because enlightenment does not reveal anything that was not already present in WC, although in practice one seems to need to 'do stuff' to come to realisation. All that that happens is certain mistaken thoughts we have about life, go away, finally. And then life goes on, as it always had. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 1, 2014 9:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. Er, talk about selective quoting. There's no conclusion section, but the discussion section, which you only partially quote, actually starts out talking about the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming and sleeping (CC). To suggest that he doesn't mention it when its the first line of the first paragraph, is, well, overtly deceptive: Discussion Brain patterns that defined transcendental experiences during TM practice and the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming, and sleeping were mainly found in frontal brain areas. This suggests that frontal circuits may play a critical role in transcendental experiences and the growth of higher states of consciousness. These states could be called higher states in that (1) the subject/object relationship is different in these states compared to waking, sleeping, and dreaming; (2) the sense of self is more expanded in these states; and (3) the physiological patterns are distinct from those during waking, dreaming, and sleeping. The development of higher states may be an extension of the developmental trajectory that began as a toddler and continued into adulthood, supporting
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : Turquoise said: ...And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. ... Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. ... When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity Of the four stages of Non-REM sleep, in Stage 1, upon wakening, one may feel as if he or she has not slept. In Stage 2, muscles relax, we lose consciousness of the environment, etc as a preparation for deep sleep. This is not yet deep sleep and a sense of inner wakefulness in Stage 2 is more likely than in deep sleep. Stages 3 and 4 are the deep sleep states. However, as we age, Stages 3 and 4 become less, often significantly. Stage 1 and 2 of Non REM sleep are more conducive of the experience of being awake / conscious (though not necessarily of the environment). Those past 50 and / or with sleep disorders that reduce or eliminate stage 3 and 4 stage non REM sleep may be more likely to experience witnessing sleep. Reduction or elimination of Stage 3 and 4 Non REM sleep is not a good thing. A strong Stage 3 and 4 sleep architecture is important for many sleep and waking functions. Lack of sleep (not exclusively stage 3 and 4, however, however weak stage 3 and 4 negatively affect other sleep stages) contributes to lower proficiency in most cognitive functions, including memory consolidation and working memory. Working memory is a highly critical factor in intelligence and performance across a wide span of activities. Lack of adequate sleep also contributes to attention disorders, including the tendency of the mind to wander, not being able to sustain attention on a focussed task. Sparaig points out that the study shows positive correlation of witnessing sleep with wandering mind -- which raises the question of whether (one of many possible hypotheses and models ) the states experienced by the subjects are due to reduced quality of sleep (poor stage 3 and 4 sleep architectured) resulting in attention deficits, reduced working memory capacity, and subsequent reduction of applied intelligence . I hope bawee is reading your posts because you sound like you know what you're talking about. It is a lot more refreshing than reading bawee's knee-jerk (did I say jerk?) simple-minded reactions to everything that exist merely to try and make others look ignorant and small. Stick around, you and Salyavin might have some things in common.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : Turquoise said: ...And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. ... Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. ... When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity Of the four stages of Non-REM sleep, in Stage 1, upon wakening, one may feel as if he or she has not slept. In Stage 2, muscles relax, we lose consciousness of the environment, etc as a preparation for deep sleep. This is not yet deep sleep and a sense of inner wakefulness in Stage 2 is more likely than in deep sleep. Stages 3 and 4 are the deep sleep states. However, as we age, Stages 3 and 4 become less, often significantly. Stage 1 and 2 of Non REM sleep are more conducive of the experience of being awake / conscious (though not necessarily of the environment). Those past 50 and / or with sleep disorders that reduce or eliminate stage 3 and 4 stage non REM sleep may be more likely to experience witnessing sleep. Reduction or elimination of Stage 3 and 4 Non REM sleep is not a good thing. A strong Stage 3 and 4 sleep architecture is important for many sleep and waking functions. Lack of sleep (not exclusively stage 3 and 4, however, however weak stage 3 and 4 negatively affect other sleep stages) contributes to lower proficiency in most cognitive functions, including memory consolidation and working memory. Working memory is a highly critical factor in intelligence and performance across a wide span of activities. Lack of adequate sleep also contributes to attention disorders, including the tendency of the mind to wander, not being able to sustain attention on a focussed task. Sparaig points out that the study shows positive correlation of witnessing sleep with wandering mind -- which raises the question of whether (one of many possible hypotheses and models ) the states experienced by the subjects are due to reduced quality of sleep (poor stage 3 and 4 sleep architectured) resulting in attention deficits, reduced working memory capacity, and subsequent reduction of applied intelligence . I hope bawee is reading your posts because you sound like you know what you're talking about. It is a lot more refreshing than reading bawee's knee-jerk (did I say jerk?) simple-minded reactions to everything that exist merely to try and make others look ignorant and small. Stick around, you and Salyavin might have some things in common. Thanks for taking up this Issue, while I needed to step away to reread Sleep and Dreams: A Sourcebook Compiled by Jayne Gackenbach. Here's some sense (and my 2 cents): The following is a description of witnessing dreaming described by a subject: 'Often during dreaming I am awake inside, in a very peaceful, blissful state. Dreams come and go, thoughts about the dreams come and go, but I remian in a deeply peaceful state, completely separate from the dreams and the thoughts. My body is asleep and inert, breathing goes on regularly and mechanically, and inside I am just aware that I am' Gackenbach, J. and LaBerge, S (1986)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
On 10/2/2014 8:36 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. /The EEG evidence supporting the reality of witnessing is that people having these experiences exhibit one of the EEG signatures of transcendental consciousness, which is theta/alpha (7-9 Hz) EEG relative power, along with the signature of deep sleep, which is delta EEG (1-4 Hz)./ - David Orme-Johnsom One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. Most of the time when these kinds of conditions are examined, the insomniacs simply can't tell the difference between wakefulness and sleeping. They may think they are just resting when in reality they are asleep - maybe they are taking mico-naps lasting just a few minutes. /It is a very rare condition/ when sleep deprivation can't be explained by a medical science - such causes as fever, illness, genetic mutation or psychological disorder. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. Acute or chronic insomnia is called Fatal Familial Insomnia (FFI). Total sleeplessness has yet to be explained by science, so you seem to be one of the science writers today that have new information about this disorder. A full report should be on PubMed by now,right? In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. Total sleep deprivation is very rare and only about 100 cases have ever been the subject of a clinical study and only maybe two have never been explained by medical science. The quack you are working for should probably hire a lawyer to look into this, since according to your short report, there are more incidences of total sleeplessness at their clinic /than in the whole of medical science worldwide. /Go figure. All of them are just normal people off the street. The key word here is fatal in the condition known in science as FFI, and leads to death in almost all cases leads to panic attacks, hallucinations, delirium, confusion, weight loss, and then dementia and death. FFI has no known cure and involves progressively worsening conditions. Death usually occurs between 7 and 36 months from onset, according to what I've read. Not one of them meditates. Everyone meditates, Barry, every time they pause to think about something. Anyone who isn't able to think is unconscious and obviously sleeping. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I got it, but I'm not sure everyone did. You could start a Poll on ffl like: I make money the Old Fashioned Way...I don't work (doesn't sound that good when I see it on the screen, and Richard says this will be preserved eternally. Is that enough time to change it? Is it enough time to change careers? Is it enough time? You and your lucky wife sound well paired (and I'm am not talking jealously). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 10/2/2014 8:36 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. The EEG evidence supporting the reality of witnessing is that people having these experiences exhibit one of the EEG signatures of transcendental consciousness, which is theta/alpha (7-9 Hz) EEG relative power, along with the signature of deep sleep, which is delta EEG (1-4 Hz). - David Orme-Johnsom One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. Most of the time when these kinds of conditions are examined, the insomniacs simply can't tell the difference between wakefulness and sleeping. They may think they are just resting when in reality they are asleep - maybe they are taking mico-naps lasting just a few minutes. It is a very rare condition when sleep deprivation can't be explained by a medical science - such causes as fever, illness, genetic mutation or psychological disorder. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. Acute or chronic insomnia is called Fatal Familial Insomnia (FFI). Total sleeplessness has yet to be explained by science, so you seem to be one of the science writers today that have new information about this disorder. A full report should be on PubMed by now,right? In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. Total sleep deprivation is very rare and only about 100 cases have ever been the subject of a clinical study and only maybe two have never been explained by medical science. The quack you are working for should probably hire a lawyer to look into this, since according to your short report, there are more incidences of total sleeplessness at their clinic than in the whole of medical science worldwide. Go figure. All of them are just normal people off the street. The key word here is fatal in the condition known in science as FFI, and leads to death in almost all cases leads to panic attacks, hallucinations, delirium, confusion, weight loss, and then dementia and death. FFI has no known cure and involves progressively worsening conditions. Death usually occurs between 7 and 36 months from onset, according to what I've read. Not one of them meditates. Everyone meditates, Barry, every time they pause to think about something. Anyone who isn't able to think is unconscious and obviously sleeping. Go figure. Richard, Is there ANYTHING YOU DON'T KNOW? Here's a toughie: Am I about to go to sleep for an afternoon nap in anticipation of a late-night out? Or not. Curious Dan
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
First she sailed around the world, with one other person, in a 32' boat, and then we met. Instantly discovered faraway places we have both been, including past lives (Japan and Western US) - We complement each other very well, once again. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I got it, but I'm not sure everyone did. You could start a Poll on ffl like: I make money the Old Fashioned Way...I don't work (doesn't sound that good when I see it on the screen, and Richard says this will be preserved eternally. Is that enough time to change it? Is it enough time to change careers? Is it enough time? You and your lucky wife sound well paired (and I'm am not talking jealously). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : First she sailed around the world, with one other person, in a 32' boat, and then we met. Instantly discovered faraway places we have both been, including past lives (Japan and Western US) - We complement each other very well, once again. A marriage made in heaven. Lovely Me and my better half met in a bar. Famous, literary bar. Traveled together to faraway places. Honeymooned in Peru Ecuador before much plumbing. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I got it, but I'm not sure everyone did. You could start a Poll on ffl like: I make money the Old Fashioned Way...I don't work (doesn't sound that good when I see it on the screen, and Richard says this will be preserved eternally. Is that enough time to change it? Is it enough time to change careers? Is it enough time? You and your lucky wife sound well paired (and I'm am not talking jealously). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. And the #4 was as delicious as
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
On 10/2/2014 1:29 PM, danfriedman2002 wrote: Thanks for taking up this Issue, while I needed to step away to reread Sleep and Dreams: A Sourcebook Compiled by Jayne Gackenbach. You might be interested in this paper by Gackenbach on the experience of lucid dreaming among TMers and its relationship to witnessing: http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/fromlucid.htm /A lucid dream is a dream in which the sleeper is aware that he or she is dreaming./ From what I've read, the phenomenon of lucid dreaming has been well established by scientific research by Gackenbach and others, so its existence is well established. Barry may not be aware that /Dream Yoga/ has been practiced by Tibetan Buddhists for years. In /Tibetan Dream Yoga/, maintaining full consciousness while in the dream state is part of /Dzogchen/ training. This training is described by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche as /Rigpa Awareness/. Rigpa Awareness is very similar to 'witnessing sleep' in TM, which helps the individual understand the unreality of waking consciousness as phenomena. /Apparently the EEG patterns are the same in Rigpa Awareness as in TM./ In Tibetan Yoga lucid dreaming is secondary to the experience of the /Diamond Light/. Read more: /'Tibetan Yoga Of Dream And Sleep'/ by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche Snow Lion, 1998 /'Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines' / By Lama Kazi Dawa-Samdup and W. Y. Evans-Wentz Oxford University Press, 1967
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Excellent! Sounds like a great honeymoon - When we first met, mid-90's, we would go to this divey but safe, psuedo-polynesian bar (with the requisite homemade wallpaper of nude women in the men's room), called, The Kon Tiki - Great bartender - name was Harold. We brought in some drink umbrellas for him to give the customers, adding a little more south sea island flair to the place - lol. Bon voyage - He made very strong Long Island Ice Teas. Now, the neighborhood is Korean, and the place is a cafe. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : First she sailed around the world, with one other person, in a 32' boat, and then we met. Instantly discovered faraway places we have both been, including past lives (Japan and Western US) - We complement each other very well, once again. A marriage made in heaven. Lovely Me and my better half met in a bar. Famous, literary bar. Traveled together to faraway places. Honeymooned in Peru Ecuador before much plumbing. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I got it, but I'm not sure everyone did. You could start a Poll on ffl like: I make money the Old Fashioned Way...I don't work (doesn't sound that good when I see it on the screen, and Richard says this will be preserved eternally. Is that enough time to change it? Is it enough time to change careers? Is it enough time? You and your lucky wife sound well paired (and I'm am not talking jealously). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little bit of this and a little bit of that - kind of like what my husband and I ordered off the thai menu last night when we had: #9, #22 with tofu, #13, #55 and #60. We like to experience lots of tastes and we still have some left over for lunch today just in case you noticed that was a lot to eat for just two people. Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Excellent! Sounds like a great honeymoon - When we first met, mid-90's, we would go to this divey but safe, psuedo-polynesian bar (with the requisite homemade wallpaper of nude women in the men's room), called, The Kon Tiki - Great bartender - name was Harold. We brought in some drink umbrellas for him to give the customers, adding a little more south sea island flair to the place - lol. Bon voyage - He made very strong Long Island Ice Teas. Now, the neighborhood is Korean, and the place is a cafe. Lovely history. A cafe! Bring back the Kon Tiki! Same fate for the West End Bar. Place was made famous by Kerouac and Ginsberg, who frequented during their college years at Columbia. Every table had carved names of literary types (or counterfeits). My future bride was a barmaid and I a regular. She knew what she was getting in to. A marriage made in... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : First she sailed around the world, with one other person, in a 32' boat, and then we met. Instantly discovered faraway places we have both been, including past lives (Japan and Western US) - We complement each other very well, once again. A marriage made in heaven. Lovely Me and my better half met in a bar. Famous, literary bar. Traveled together to faraway places. Honeymooned in Peru Ecuador before much plumbing. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I got it, but I'm not sure everyone did. You could start a Poll on ffl like: I make money the Old Fashioned Way...I don't work (doesn't sound that good when I see it on the screen, and Richard says this will be preserved eternally. Is that enough time to change it? Is it enough time to change careers? Is it enough time? You and your lucky wife sound well paired (and I'm am not talking jealously). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : If the formatting was wrong, here's what the interview responses were like from the enlightened test subjects to the question Describe your self: L1: We ordinarily think my self as this age; this color of hair; these hobbies . . . my experience is that my Self is a lot larger than that. It's immeasurably vast. . . on a physical level. It is not just restricted to this physical environment L2: It's the ‘‘I am-ness.’’ It's my Being. There's just a channel underneath that's just underlying everything. It's my essence there and it just doesn't stop where I stop. . . by ‘‘I,’’ I mean this 5 ft. 2 person that moves around here and there L3: I look out and see this beautiful divine Intelligence. . . you could say in the sky, in the tree, but really being expressed through these things. . . and these are my Self L4: I experience myself as being without edges or content. . . beyond the universe. . . all-pervading, and being absolutely thrilled, absolutely delighted with every motion that my body makes. With everything that my eyes see, my ears hear, my nose smells. There's a delight in the sense that I am able to penetrate that. My consciousness, my intelligence pervades everything I see, feel and think L5: When I say ’’I’’ that's the Self. There's a quality that is so pervasive about the Self that I'm quite sure that the ‘‘I’’ is the same ‘‘I’’ as everyone else's ‘‘I.’’ Not in terms of what follows right after. I am tall, I am short, I am fat, I am this, I am that. But the ‘‘I’’ part. The ‘‘I am’’ part is the same ‘‘I am’’ for you and me I describe myself as L4, beginning with absolutely. I think I'm a little
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 10/2/2014 1:29 PM, danfriedman2002 wrote: Thanks for taking up this Issue, while I needed to step away to reread Sleep and Dreams: A Sourcebook Compiled by Jayne Gackenbach. You might be interested in this paper by Gackenbach on the experience of lucid dreaming among TMers and its relationship to witnessing: Not so much, but thanks. Have you given any thought to my inquiry about sleep-walking? Is it good exercise? Also, if I use Large Type, can I write more briefly, yet communicate more? http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/fromlucid.htm http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/fromlucid.htm A lucid dream is a dream in which the sleeper is aware that he or she is dreaming. From what I've read, the phenomenon of lucid dreaming has been well established by scientific research by Gackenbach and others, so its existence is well established. Barry may not be aware that Dream Yoga has been practiced by Tibetan Buddhists for years. In Tibetan Dream Yoga, maintaining full consciousness while in the dream state is part of Dzogchen training. This training is described by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche as Rigpa Awareness. Rigpa Awareness is very similar to 'witnessing sleep' in TM, which helps the individual understand the unreality of waking consciousness as phenomena. Apparently the EEG patterns are the same in Rigpa Awareness as in TM. In Tibetan Yoga lucid dreaming is secondary to the experience of the Diamond Light. Read more: 'Tibetan Yoga Of Dream And Sleep' by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche Snow Lion, 1998 'Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines' By Lama Kazi Dawa-Samdup and W. Y. Evans-Wentz Oxford University Press, 1967
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Barry, Barry, Barry, did anyone say you had to meditate to have experiences of higher states of consciousnesses. Let it go Barry. Time to let it go. You've got to expand your world past Maharishi, and the TM organization. It's a big world Barry. Lot's of things to see and explore. The TM movement is just on little bit of it. Exppd those horizons a bit. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:23 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris I should also add that the criteria for being included in the studies that Fred did was having witnessing sleep for a year. And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. All of them are just normal people off the street. Not one of them meditates. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Dear Ann, Thank you for the lunch invitation. You will be please to know that my wife will be joining us. She was thrilled to be invited. We both look forward tom seeing you and are skipping our breakfast to keep a hearty appetite. Your appreciative guests. P.S. I love Thailand (and Burma) I would be most honored to make your wife's acquiantance. She could do the ordering making sure to absolutely get a #4 for you and afterwards we could all talk about art. Are we meeting in Victoria or in NYC? If so I will have to have a visit with my niece in Brooklyn. She is an artist too. My son is an artist living in Brooklyn. Does niecey need an inspiring lover? He comes highly recommended. Thank you for the offering of your son but my niece is already married to a rather doting Israeli. She also converted to Judaism and her three children have rather beautiful Israeli names. I did get in trouble one time though for bringing some non-Kosher grape juice into their kitchen and had to keep it up in my bedroom instead of putting it in their fridge. I now check all the labels on the foods I buy while staying at their place. And the #4 was as delicious as you said. Sorry, our appetites got the best of us and we couldn't wait; what with all those flights, taxis, packing, schlepping, walking, getting lost... Don't thank us, we were just saving you a trip.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Don't forget to pop into the Louvre - and I'll be watching you two scamps, so don't get lost! (PS In a past life, I was the grandfather of the security guard (who is a buddhist), protecting the Mona Lisa, on the day shift). Apropos of nothing, there is a nondescript eating establishment, in a strip mall, in Fremont, CA that my wife and I saw, and the name instantly become part of our vocabulary (well, mine, anyway...). It is called, creatively, The Niche Business Cafe. I imagine you walk in, and are given a short interview, on how niche your particular business is, and if you qualify, you're in. So, for example, a shoe salesman, is out, but a bowling shoe salesman, is seated immediately. Sporting goods out, but selling just fishing line? Booth or table? ... I'll be the English Equestrian Supply luncher as opposed to the Tack Store Owner.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 10/2/2014 8:36 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: And someone should add that witnessing sleep may not mean shit. The EEG evidence supporting the reality of witnessing is that people having these experiences exhibit one of the EEG signatures of transcendental consciousness, which is theta/alpha (7-9 Hz) EEG relative power, along with the signature of deep sleep, which is delta EEG (1-4 Hz). - David Orme-Johnsom One of my science article clients runs a sleep clinic, so when writing articles about sleep disorders I've learned a few interesting things. Such as that there is a subset of patients who complain that they Never fall asleep. Their subjective experience is that they never lose conscious awareness, so they're worried that they've got a sleep disorder, even though they display no symptoms of sleep deprivation. Most of the time when these kinds of conditions are examined, the insomniacs simply can't tell the difference between wakefulness and sleeping. They may think they are just resting when in reality they are asleep - maybe they are taking mico-naps lasting just a few minutes. It is a very rare condition when sleep deprivation can't be explained by a medical science - such causes as fever, illness, genetic mutation or psychological disorder. When hooked up to machines to monitor their physiology during sleep, these folks *are*, in fact, experiencing all of the classic cycles of sleep, along with their accompanying REM or lack of REM activity. It's just that they never lose their subjective awareness. In other words, a part of them is always awake, witnessing their subjective experience as they navigate the entire range of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. Acute or chronic insomnia is called Fatal Familial Insomnia (FFI). Total sleeplessness has yet to be explained by science, so you seem to be one of the science writers today that have new information about this disorder. A full report should be on PubMed by now,right? In the decade my client's practice has been open, he has treated maybe a couple of dozen people who report this. Total sleep deprivation is very rare and only about 100 cases have ever been the subject of a clinical study and only maybe two have never been explained by medical science. The quack you are working for should probably hire a lawyer to look into this, since according to your short report, there are more incidences of total sleeplessness at their clinic than in the whole of medical science worldwide. Go figure. All of them are just normal people off the street. The key word here is fatal in the condition known in science as FFI, and leads to death in almost all cases leads to panic attacks, hallucinations, delirium, confusion, weight loss, and then dementia and death. FFI has no known cure and involves progressively worsening conditions. Death usually occurs between 7 and 36 months from onset, according to what I've read. Not one of them meditates. Everyone meditates, Barry, every time they pause to think about something. Anyone who isn't able to think is unconscious and obviously sleeping. Go figure. Have you picked those lottery numbers yet? If you have I get half the winnings.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
5. Neurologically speaking, banishing the self must equate to a certain level of unscheduled tinkering with neurotransmitters and receptors, just because we can modulate the potentials of our conscious experience doesn't mean that those states are fidelitous to some input from our external, or physical realities. For a realized Self to be invariant, consistent in all circumstances, beyond pain and suffering, fire cannot wet it, fire cannot burn it, independent of waking sleeping and dreaming, etc, it seems reasonable that it should be invariant to significant shifts in serotonin, dopamine, and other neurotransmitter levels and receptivity. To what extent are classical states described in traditional texts, as well as contemporary non-dual and no-self states dependent upon brain function and levels of neurotransmitters, etc? Stated differently, can and does an exalted self (driven by non-standard levels of neurotransmitters and brain function) become misinterpreted as a realized Self? Is it a cake-and-eat-it-too phenomenon to measure and attempt to validate alternative / higher states of consciousness with physiological and brain measurement technology -- while also assuming / claiming such states survive bodily death? Separating brain function from deemed permanent (eternal) states of awareness seems a necessary first step for any discussion of post physical body death of realized beings. As well as associated states: to what extent are deep and intense bhakti experiences and modes driven by high serotonin levels (as well as other beyond 2-3 standard deviation levels of other neurotransmitters and other critical brain chemicals)? And /or great realizations about the nature of the universe, as well as intense bliss, driven by high dopamine levels, etc.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Fred Travis published research on enlightened people. This review paper looks at the research: Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New Yor... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full 1 Shear, J. 2006. The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions. Princeton, NJ: The Infinity Foundation. 2 Travis, F. J. Shear. View on onlinelibrary.wiley.com http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Preview by Yahoo Fred is doing new research on people in CC and will be using more sophisticated EEG analysis, and possibly other measures as well. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : 5. Neurologically speaking, banishing the self must equate to a certain level of unscheduled tinkering with neurotransmitters and receptors, just because we can modulate the potentials of our conscious experience doesn't mean that those states are fidelitous to some input from our external, or physical realities. For a realized Self to be invariant, consistent in all circumstances, beyond pain and suffering, fire cannot wet it, fire cannot burn it, independent of waking sleeping and dreaming, etc, it seems reasonable that it should be invariant to significant shifts in serotonin, dopamine, and other neurotransmitter levels and receptivity. To what extent are classical states described in traditional texts, as well as contemporary non-dual and no-self states dependent upon brain function and levels of neurotransmitters, etc? Stated differently, can and does an exalted self (driven by non-standard levels of neurotransmitters and brain function) become misinterpreted as a realized Self? Is it a cake-and-eat-it-too phenomenon to measure and attempt to validate alternative / higher states of consciousness with physiological and brain measurement technology -- while also assuming / claiming such states survive bodily death? Separating brain function from deemed permanent (eternal) states of awareness seems a necessary first step for any discussion of post physical body death of realized beings. As well as associated states: to what extent are deep and intense bhakti experiences and modes driven by high serotonin levels (as well as other beyond 2-3 standard deviation levels of other neurotransmitters and other critical brain chemicals)? And /or great realizations about the nature of the universe, as well as intense bliss, driven by high dopamine levels, etc.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
But CC really isn't enlightenment, it's just 'glorified ignorance' as M said. You get inner wakefulness and silence along with a deluded mind. So this paper is not about enlightened people. It's about people who have a certain degree of opening to spiritual experience, but far short of the goal. Fred's problem is he does not have access to currently used state-of-the-art equipment in the study of consciousness, and even if he did, he probably would not be allowed by the TMO to use it (fMRI for example), and he is probably under some other research restrictions as well, as he likely would be booted if he published any negative results. Fred: 'The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with re[s]pect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright.' He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Fred Travis published research on enlightened people. This review paper looks at the research: Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New Yor... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full 1 Shear, J. 2006. The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions. Princeton, NJ: The Infinity Foundation. 2 Travis, F. J. Shear. View on onlinelibrary.wiley.com http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Preview by Yahoo Fred is doing new research on people in CC and will be using more sophisticated EEG analysis, and possibly other measures as well. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. Er, talk about selective quoting. There's no conclusion section, but the discussion section, which you only partially quote, actually starts out talking about the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming and sleeping (CC). To suggest that he doesn't mention it when its the first line of the first paragraph, is, well, overtly deceptive: Discussion Brain patterns that defined transcendental experiences during TM practice and the integration of transcendental experiences with waking, dreaming, and sleeping were mainly found in frontal brain areas. This suggests that frontal circuits may play a critical role in transcendental experiences and the growth of higher states of consciousness. These states could be called higher states in that (1) the subject/object relationship is different in these states compared to waking, sleeping, and dreaming; (2) the sense of self is more expanded in these states; and (3) the physiological patterns are distinct from those during waking, dreaming, and sleeping. The development of higher states may be an extension of the developmental trajectory that began as a toddler and continued into adulthood, supporting the emergence of adult abstract reasoning. Brain development begins in posterior sensory areas, which myelinate by age four. Posterior areas process sensory experiences and create the concrete present. Activity in posterior areas are associated with the first two stages of cognitive development described by Piaget—the sensorimotor and preoperational stages.[53] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full#nyas12316-bib-0053 The corpus callosum, which connects the left and right hemispheres, myelinates from age 7 to age 10. Now the dominant level of awareness de-embeds from sensory experience and reintegrates at the level of concrete operations—the ability to think about the objects that you see. The last brain circuits to myelinate are connections with frontal executive areas. These circuits begin to myelinate around age 12 and end around age 25.[54] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full#nyas12316-bib-0054 With frontal myelination, the dominant level of awareness de-embeds from thinking and reintegrates at the level of formal operations—the ability to think about thinking. Now the teenager can see consequences; they can generate different reasons to explain observations. Language learning is considered the engine for the development of abstract adult thinking. Language provides a symbolic system to represent objects and so allows a child to mentally manipulate concrete objects.[55] http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full#nyas12316-bib-0055 However, we can become stuck in our words and concepts. To develop beyond language-based thinking, we need a technique to transcend language and enable the experience of pure (content-free) consciousness underlying the changing activity of thinking and feeling. The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with repect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : But CC really isn't enlightenment, it's just 'glorified ignorance' as M said. You get inner wakefulness and silence along with a deluded mind. So this paper is not about enlightened people. It's about people who have a certain degree of opening to spiritual experience, but far short of the goal. Fred's problem is he does not have access to currently used state-of-the-art equipment in the study of consciousness, and even if he did, he probably would not be allowed by the TMO to use it (fMRI for example), and he is probably under some other research restrictions as well, as he likely would be booted if he published any negative results. Fred: 'The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with re[s]pect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright.' He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Fred Travis
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : But CC really isn't enlightenment, it's just 'glorified ignorance' as M said. It's not bad. You get inner wakefulness and silence along with a deluded mind. So this paper is not about enlightened people. Kinda is, Fourth State and Fifth State count for somethin.It's about people who have a certain degree of opening to spiritual experience, but far short of the goal. Not to shabby? Fred's problem (?) is he does not have access to currently used state-of-the-art equipment in the study of consciousness, and even if he did, he probably would not be allowed by the TMO to use it (fMRI for example) as I'm sure you'd know, and he is probably under some other research restrictions as well proly?, as he likely would be booted if he published any negative results likely sooo?. Fred: 'The experience of Transcendental Consciousness transcends language and provides a platform for experiencing the world more with re[s]pect to inner abstract structures and less with respect to outer, changing concrete objects. This experience of Transcendental Consciousness is not a luxury and should not be isolated to a few individuals transcending during meditation practice. Rather, the experience of Transcendental Consciousness should be available to everyone to allow them to realize their full human birthright.' He did not even mention CC in his conclusion (above) either. I guess he knew you had him figered. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Fred Travis published research on enlightened people. This review paper looks at the research: Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Transcendental experiences during meditation practice - Travis - 2013 - Annals of the New Yor... http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full 1 Shear, J. 2006. The Experience of Meditation: Experts Introduce the Major Traditions. Princeton, NJ: The Infinity Foundation. 2 Travis, F. J. Shear. View on onlinelibrary.wiley.com http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./nyas.12316/full Preview by Yahoo Fred is doing new research on people in CC and will be using more sophisticated EEG analysis, and possibly other measures as well. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : I agree that ranking 'levels of enlightenment' is bogus. I wonder where he got that idea from? The propensity for numbers is one of the hallmarks of Indian philosophy. One of the oldest Indian doctrines is the Samkhya on which is based Yoga, two of the Six Systems. The term Samkhya pertains to number - a radical dualism, three constituents, and thirty-two tattvas. This is explained pretty well in MMY's CBG. But in fact, the different levels of consciousness are enumerated in the Mandukya Upanishad - waking, dreaming, deep sleep, and a fourth - the turyia, a transcendental state. But, it's not just the inner mental aspect of life that the ancient Indians made great progress in. Don't forget that the ancient Indians had discovered the ratio of pi, the circumference to diameter ratio, from paridhi vyas anupati, over a thousand years before Pythagoras. Apparently the ancient Indians invented the so-called Arabic numbers. and Arab historians themselves have always acknowledged the numerals' Hindu origins. Making people talk too much about their experiences is also a bad idea. It can make a person lose focus and perspective. So that's your experience. A true guru's job is only to direct and not lead. He is a teacher and not a leader. A guru is a teacher and a teacher is a guru - if you learn something from someone or if you believe someone - you are a learner and a believer. I agree with Vaj that MMY did do damage in that sense. You are not making any sense - what damage?
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
I agree that ranking 'levels of enlightenment' is bogus. I wonder where he got that idea from? Making people talk too much about their experiences is also a bad idea. It can make a person lose focus and perspective. A true guru's job is only to direct and not lead. He is a teacher and not a leader. I agree with Vaj that MMY did do damage in that sense. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote : Looks like about a 5 shot Americano rap. Tried a Starbuck's Clover yet? ;-) As you know I would agree with you that ranking spiritual experiences is bogus. As I said the other day (as well as many other times) Maharishi kinda confused folks with levels of enlightenment. In many simpler Indian traditions you are either experiencing enlightenment or not. And as Earl Kaplan pointed out in that letter of his he learned what I did visiting India: enlightenment is not that uncommon. On 09/17/2014 10:13 AM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: I have been following the excellent comments on this topic with delight. I loved this book, especially where it helped me draw my own belief lines by disagreeing with it. Overall Sam's book is a huge step in opening up the dialogue for people who are fans of altered states but not into the presuppositions about what they mean. Barry and I have discussed how the ranking of experiences in spiritual traditions seems bogus. This is also my major criticism of Sam's ideas, but I'll start with what I found great about the book. He does an excellent job explaining his perspective on mindfulness meditation, both in techniques and its goals. It answered questions I had about my own irregular practice of mindfulness meditation and how it relates to my previous experience with TM. Without going into details I believe that both practices lead me to the same place mentally. I think the mindfulness meditation has an edge in less unwanted side effects than TM for me, and it seems a bit more efficient. I am not in a position to judge which is better or even what that concept would mean in terms of meditation. I believe neuroscience may sort this out someday, but we are a long way from enough information to draw broader conclusions. Till then I say to each his own. Meditation of any kind is nice to have in your human tool kit. (But go easy on the Kool Aid.) I have a bias toward meditation taught without the heavy belief system baggage of TM. I don't think any of that is either helpful or intellectually supportable outside the context of historical interest. Same goes for the Buddhist beliefs and assumptions. As modern people we should admit that we really don't know as much as these traditions posture by assumption about the states reached in meditation. We have an obligation to be more honest about what assumptions we are taking on faith upfront. To stick with any practice you have to have some assumptions. What they are based on is where our intellectual integrity rubber hits the road. People who want to make claims that their internal state is better than mine seem like real boors to me no matter what tradition they come from. If it is so wonderful in there then express something creatively brilliant and I will give you props for that. The section about the relationship with the brain and the concept of self is a fantastic condensation of neuro-research as it applies to our sense of self. It challenges a lot of preconceptions, although I believe it still falls a bit short of Sam's conclusions from it. The science is still young and speculation is still high. But the intellectual challenge of deciding for myself what the research means to my views was fantastic and thought provoking. Finally I come to the part I disagree with Sam most on: his assumptions about the value of the altered states brought about through meditation. I like meditation and feel it has a personal value in small doses. I am less enthusiastic about the extreme form of immersion both Sam and I have gone through in different traditions. You have to be pretty far down your glass of Kool Aid to even want to subject yourself to that kind of exposure. It is both founded on assumptions, and also stokes the furnace of generating more of them. At best it is finding out what can happen to your mind under such extreme conditions, and at worst it is causing you to be altered in a way that is not good, but we don't even know all the implications of yet. Certainly the recommendation from the hoary past don't intellectually cut it for me. That has the epistemological solidity of Dungeons and Dragons role play games. Sam's description of being caught up in and identified with thoughts as suffering and experiencing the illusion of the self as freedom seems unwarranted to me. It reminds me of
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : I agree that ranking 'levels of enlightenment' is bogus. I wonder where he got that idea from? Making people talk too much about their experiences is also a bad idea. It can make a person lose focus and perspective. It was the perfect methodology to get Meditation widespread where it was not. A true guru's job is only to direct and not lead. He is a teacher and not a leader. Are you the Guru from the strips? I agree with Vaj that MMY did do damage in that sense. You two deserve each other. --- Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote : Looks like about a 5 shot Americano rap. Tried a Starbuck's Clover yet? ;-) As you know I would agree with you that ranking spiritual experiences is bogus. As I said the other day (as well as many other times) Maharishi kinda confused folks with levels of enlightenment. In many simpler Indian traditions you are either experiencing enlightenment or not. And as Earl Kaplan pointed out in that letter of his he learned what I did visiting India: enlightenment is not that uncommon. On 09/17/2014 10:13 AM, curtisdeltablues@... mailto:curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: I have been following the excellent comments on this topic with delight. I loved this book, especially where it helped me draw my own belief lines by disagreeing with it. Overall Sam's book is a huge step in opening up the dialogue for people who are fans of altered states but not into the presuppositions about what they mean. Barry and I have discussed how the ranking of experiences in spiritual traditions seems bogus. This is also my major criticism of Sam's ideas, but I'll start with what I found great about the book. He does an excellent job explaining his perspective on mindfulness meditation, both in techniques and its goals. It answered questions I had about my own irregular practice of mindfulness meditation and how it relates to my previous experience with TM. Without going into details I believe that both practices lead me to the same place mentally. I think the mindfulness meditation has an edge in less unwanted side effects than TM for me, and it seems a bit more efficient. I am not in a position to judge which is better or even what that concept would mean in terms of meditation. I believe neuroscience may sort this out someday, but we are a long way from enough information to draw broader conclusions. Till then I say to each his own. Meditation of any kind is nice to have in your human tool kit. (But go easy on the Kool Aid.) I have a bias toward meditation taught without the heavy belief system baggage of TM. I don't think any of that is either helpful or intellectually supportable outside the context of historical interest. Same goes for the Buddhist beliefs and assumptions. As modern people we should admit that we really don't know as much as these traditions posture by assumption about the states reached in meditation. We have an obligation to be more honest about what assumptions we are taking on faith upfront. To stick with any practice you have to have some assumptions. What they are based on is where our intellectual integrity rubber hits the road. People who want to make claims that their internal state is better than mine seem like real boors to me no matter what tradition they come from. If it is so wonderful in there then express something creatively brilliant and I will give you props for that. The section about the relationship with the brain and the concept of self is a fantastic condensation of neuro-research as it applies to our sense of self. It challenges a lot of preconceptions, although I believe it still falls a bit short of Sam's conclusions from it. The science is still young and speculation is still high. But the intellectual challenge of deciding for myself what the research means to my views was fantastic and thought provoking. Finally I come to the part I disagree with Sam most on: his assumptions about the value of the altered states brought about through meditation. I like meditation and feel it has a personal value in small doses. I am less enthusiastic about the extreme form of immersion both Sam and I have gone through in different traditions. You have to be pretty far down your glass of Kool Aid to even want to subject yourself to that kind of exposure. It is both founded on assumptions, and also stokes the furnace of generating more of them. At best it is finding out what can happen to your mind under such extreme conditions, and at worst it is causing you to be altered in a way that is not good, but we don't even know all the implications of yet. Certainly the recommendation from the hoary past don't intellectually cut it for me. That has the epistemological solidity of Dungeons and Dragons role
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Curtis writes (in part): I figure I am as enlightened as I need to be to pursue my own goals and the self chosen purpose for my life. Hard to get me excited with promises of more inside. Whatever internal state I have seems to do the job nicely, the bigger task of my life is actualizing it in creative work out here. That requires eyes open. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : For me, sitting with eyes closed is too much an indulgence in some way, too self centered. Take the awareness out there and take a chance, even if it means you fall on your face or crash through the sliding glass door. Propping oneself on one's derriere for hours at a time thinking about nothing is just not what this body was really created for, IMHO. Mindfullness meditation isn't done with eyes closed, and it is practiced with walking meditation every hour, but you need to realize that Curtis probably meditates - on his music - more than most people sleep in a night. Meditation is simply thinking things over. It's not really a technique at all - it's what most people do everyday. meditation: –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : Curtis writes (in part): I figure I am as enlightened as I need to be to pursue my own goals and the self chosen purpose for my life. Hard to get me excited with promises of more inside. Whatever internal state I have seems to do the job nicely, the bigger task of my life is actualizing it in creative work out here. That requires eyes open. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : For me, sitting with eyes closed is too much an indulgence in some way, too self centered. Take the awareness out there and take a chance, even if it means you fall on your face or crash through the sliding glass door. Propping oneself on one's derriere for hours at a time thinking about nothing is just not what this body was really created for, IMHO. Mindfullness meditation isn't done with eyes closed, and it is practiced with walking meditation every hour, but you need to realize that Curtis probably meditates - on his music - more than most people sleep in a night. Meditation is simply thinking things over. It's not really a technique at all - it's what most people do everyday. meditation: –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. No! Say it ain't so. Now were using the dictionary? wrong, wrong, wrong: Meditation is simply thinking things over. It's not really a technique at all - it's what most people do everyday. meditation: –noun 1 to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2 to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. and wrong again. Did I say wrong enough for you? how's this purple? It's wrong to say it's gold.
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
Yay, Curtis chimes in! I'm still a fan of silence -- that is: states of lesser excitation. Not sure why BECAUSE OF YOUR DOUBTS which have infected me. I hope you're satisfied. Don 't know if this vid has been posted at FFL before...mustabeen, but here 'tiz: The TM Movement CULT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQMKxrLnOGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQMKxrLnOGc The TM Movement CULT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQMKxrLnOGc *note* the audio from the documentary I used in this video is kinda low so you may wanna listen through a desktop comp or headset if there is a lot of noise ... View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQMKxrLnOGc Preview by Yahoo
[FairfieldLife] Re: My take on Waking Up by Sam Harris
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Yay, Curtis chimes in! M: Hey man, thanks for the greeting. I'm still a fan of silence -- that is: states of lesser excitation. Not sure why M: Cuz we are junkies brother. Pure and simple conditioning, synaptic slaves. Or maybe it is because we are so special! E BECAUSE OF YOUR DOUBTS which have infected me. I hope you're satisfied. M: I am, that is very gratifying and my Dark Lord will be pleased. Of course you could follow some of Maharishi's most dubious advice and doubt the doubt, but we both know where that leads E: Don 't know if this vid has been posted at FFL before...mustabeen, but here 'tiz:The TM Movement CULT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQMKxrLnOGc M: Bingo!
