Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
From: seerd...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com S3: What you (B..) miss is that the story of the Virgin Birth is simply one of a series of miraculous births that crop up in other myths across cultures. Including, among many, King Janaka (of Upanishadic and Ashtavakara Gita fame), when conducting a yagya in a field hears a voice from the sky -- and expressed a desire for child -- and upon finding a child in a furrow, the voice says the infant is a spiritual child, Sita (destined to be Rama's wife and whom some view as the counter part to Rama as Shakti is to Shiva, the energy of the manifest universe). S3: It's the deeper message they carry that is powerful as it activates levels of the self not touched by a merely fictional character. While I don't wish to continue harping on this subject, I do wish to point out that it's *exactly* this deeper message that I object to with regard to virgin birth or miraculous birth myths. The message is, This person is 'special'. He or she is *not like you*. You can never hope to achieve the fantastic things this person has achieved, because you're not 'special' the way he or she was. This is pretty much the *opposite* message that any approach to self realization should be taking IMO. It's *exclusive*, as opposed to *inclusive*. While sympathetic and at time sharing a similar view, by what epistemolgical means do you (does one have to) begin to valid such a view? Jung and Campbell (sacred cows?) may have had a field day milking that theme, but is it simple mythical milk from cows such as Kamadhenu the mother of all cows, who provides its owner whatever is desired, or Audhumbla norse cow who licked a melting block of ice at the beginning of time and caused a man to appear? . S3: (I can't tell you exactly what the deep message is. Why? Because if it could be expressed in prosaic language we wouldn't need to bother with myths!) Similar can occur with listening to sacred music / chants from traditional (long surviving) cultures. it can induce some insight hard(er) to express, but yet seemingly inducing some new insights, perhaps new synaptic connections or at least inner spark (or light bulb in head metaphor). What is the validity of such insights? Back to the cows above. However, if listening to such myths or rhythms /sounds (or seeing forms and colors in art) indeed do (supposition, but it feels like that is happening) induce new synapses (or lowers activation potential of existing synapses and enables more enduring, longer, more sophisticated connections in the brain) then that may be sufficient reward / justification for indulging MMA (see below). That is, the myths, sounds, art (mythical, mystical arts (MMA) ), may structure a new (or age old, yet currently untapped potential) style of functioning of the nervous system (jeez did I actually say that out loud). Daniel Kaneman (Nobel Prize winner (economics) for work in cognitive sciences) argues, “intuition is [pattern] recognition.” Might MMA help structure a style of functioning that increases recognition of deeper levels of patterns in nature / life / consciousness? Turq: I had forgotten how attached people can get to their fictional characters.: S3: That's cute coming from a dedicated fan of Sherlock! S3: Why such stories are so appealing (to most of us, if not for others such as yourself) is an intriguing question. Perhaps the attachment comes from those characters reflecting some strands of MMA that induce some amount of familiarity or recognition of deeper patterns in human nature. Turq: I should probably consider myself lucky that you didn't consider my presentation of an alternative Santa Claus: S3: Well, Santa is a bit of a bore - unless you're 5 years old (and even then). Yet Santa is also a mythical beast -- with long standing stand-ins across many cultures. S3: But these characters of myth are not *fictional* characters. Indeed in the case of those like Mary and Jesus they are real people whose life stories have been submerged under a mythology. Are you suggesting all characters in myths (must definitionally) have a basis as actual historical people? I doubt it (though its interesting, for 5 seconds, to contemplate such). If not, what is the import of Jesus and Mary having or not having a historical basis (there are interesting counter arguments, such as the lack of any / much observations of a Jesus/Mary in contemporaries during their lives at temporary). S3: The difference? Myths emerge from the collective unconscious (whatever that means!) whereas fiction is a conscious creation. As an example, traditional fairy stories can carry some of the disturbing other-worldliness of myth; Raw, original fairy tales can be (are) holy shit scary. And this is good for kids? I am not arguing pro or con, but it is a bit surprising that scaring the holy crap out of kids is a
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
Much better reply. I'm not going to argue with any of it, because I'm really NOT into arguing, especially about subjects that are purely a matter of opinion/belief and can never be resolved. The only reason I replied earlier was my surprise at you characterizing my posting of Valerie's article as tacky or exhibiting a low level of consciousness, simply because (from my point of view) you didn't *like* my or Valerie's point of view on the subject matter. I am just making the case that we are *allowed* to view Biblical events/myths from different points of view from the ones that Jews or Christians prefer. *They* are allowed to continue with their in the box points of view. I don't think that *either* of these points of view is the truth and don't think I ever suggested that. It isn't reducing the story of Christ's birth to introduce the issue of sexism and male power over women into it; it's *expanding* that story, and seeing other sides of it. As you suggest below, you view the metaphor of the virgin birth (or miraculous birth) as inspiring or uplifting. I can see other sides of it, not least of which is the attempt to portray the Messiah as being not really human, and not really born as the result of sex. I think that's a BAD teaching to imply, just as I similarly think that bhaktified versions of Buddha's birth to make him seem less human and make his birth seem more miraculous is a BAD teaching. No one could have gone out of his way more to say that he *was* an ordinary human being with no special birth or powers than the original Buddha, so in the case of devotees trying to make his birth seem more miraculous, I would suggest they are actually *distorting and perverting* his teachings. I feel similarly to the tacking on of the virgin birth to the Christ myth. While I understand why devotees may have done this, I think that in so doing they created a weaker and less admirable being in the supposedly supernatural Christ than possibly existed in the completely human Christ. I'm not the only person to feel this way, that the myths attached to Christ's story had little to do with his message. Here is an interesting exchange between historian Resa Aslan and a number of other historians and theologians about the differing interpretations of Christ's life. I like one quote early in the exchange, which seems to me to really get this mythification process: The 'Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth' author argues that a tension exists between the historical and theological narratives of Jesus, as 'many Christians would say Jesus fulfilled' the prophecies detailed in the Bible, while 'many historians would say Jesus' life was crafted so that it would fulfill these prophecies.'Reza Aslan And Theological Scholar Spar Over History Of Jesus | | | | | | | | | | | Reza Aslan And Theological Scholar Spar Over History Of Je...The different historical and religious interpretations of Jesus are general... | | | | View on www.huffingtonpost.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period Re I had forgotten how attached people can get to their fictional characters.: That's cute coming from a dedicated fan of Sherlock! Re I should probably consider myself lucky that you didn't consider my presentation of an alternative Santa Claus: Well, Santa is a bit of a bore - unless you're 5 years old (and even then). But these characters of myth are not *fictional* characters. Indeed in the case of those like Mary and Jesus they are real people whose life stories have been submerged under a mythology. The difference? Myths emerge from the collective unconscious (whatever that means!) whereas fiction is a conscious creation. As an example, traditional fairy stories can carry some of the disturbing other-worldliness of myth; but modern re-workings of fairy stories, like those of Angela Carter, though they can be superb stories are too in debt to the writer's surface prejudices and biases to tap that deeper level. What you (Barry) miss is that the story of the Virgin Birth is simply one of a series of miraculous births that crop up in other myths across cultures. It's the deeper message they carry that is powerful as it activates levels of the self not touched by a merely fictional character. (I can't tell you exactly what the deep message is. Why? Because if it could be expressed in prosaic language we wouldn't need to bother with myths!) From the web: About 2,000 years before the Christian era Mut-em-ua, the virgin Queen of Egypt, was said to have given birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented: 1) The Annunciation: the god Taht announcing
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
I just stumbled upon this article about virgin births, and figured I just had to post it, given the thread so far. It contains at least one shocking statistic: The virgin birth, despite its impossible paradoxes, is still very much with us. According to a recent longitudinal study published in the British Medical Journal, there were 45 virgin births reported in the United States between 1995 and 2008. Nearly .5% of the sample claimed divine intervention, not sex, as the source of their pregnancy. It also contains an equally shocking insight into the virgin birth phenomenon as we know it more from history: Virgins have given birth to the godheads of nearly every major religion. But it's a particular kind of motherhood: these mythical virgins never give birth to other women, and in the rare cases when they give birth to mortals, the men are far from ordinary. The History of Virgin Births | | | | | | | | | | | The History of Virgin BirthsZebedee spends her days largely alone, nervously swimming in a clear aquarium, there for the entertainment of tourists dining at Abu Dubai's Burj Al Arab hotel. Sur... | | | | View on jezebel.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 1:20 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period Re I had forgotten how attached people can get to their fictional characters.: That's cute coming from a dedicated fan of Sherlock! Re I should probably consider myself lucky that you didn't consider my presentation of an alternative Santa Claus: Well, Santa is a bit of a bore - unless you're 5 years old (and even then). But these characters of myth are not *fictional* characters. Indeed in the case of those like Mary and Jesus they are real people whose life stories have been submerged under a mythology. The difference? Myths emerge from the collective unconscious (whatever that means!) whereas fiction is a conscious creation. As an example, traditional fairy stories can carry some of the disturbing other-worldliness of myth; but modern re-workings of fairy stories, like those of Angela Carter, though they can be superb stories are too in debt to the writer's surface prejudices and biases to tap that deeper level. What you (Barry) miss is that the story of the Virgin Birth is simply one of a series of miraculous births that crop up in other myths across cultures. It's the deeper message they carry that is powerful as it activates levels of the self not touched by a merely fictional character. (I can't tell you exactly what the deep message is. Why? Because if it could be expressed in prosaic language we wouldn't need to bother with myths!) From the web: About 2,000 years before the Christian era Mut-em-ua, the virgin Queen of Egypt, was said to have given birth to the Pharaoh Amenkept, who built the temple of Luxor, on the walls of which were represented: 1) The Annunciation: the god Taht announcing to the virgin Queen that she is about to become a mother. 2) The Immaculate Conception: the god Kneph (the holy spirit) mystically impregnating the virgin by holding a cross, the symbol of life, to her mouth. 3) The Birth of the Man-god. 4) The Adoration of the newly born infant by gods and men, including three kings (or Magi?), who are offering him gifts. In this sculpture the cross again appears as a symbol. Why such stories are so appealing (to most of us, if not for others such as yourself) is an intriguing question. The point of my original response is that to reduce that appeal to a rape-narrative, as your linked article did, is just the kind of move that makes me despair of all kinds of reductionism, and is no doubt why I'm more drawn to idealist (mind-dependent) philosophies than to materialist ones. I'm top-down rather than bottom-up as they say. Even if I turn out to be wrong about that at least, like Oscar Wilde, while I've been lying in the gutter I've also been looking at the stars. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : awakens our From: s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com I see you're in troll mode today. Me? YOU are the one replying to a post that wasn't sent to you, just so you can dump on me. :-) Re Reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't: Define intelligent. I wasn't exactly having a rant! Re I'm sorry you thought my post was tacky. I think your reply was somewhat more so.: You think wrong. Whatever. What probably misled me was you calling my alternative take on a fictional character a slur. I had forgotten how attached people can get to their fictional characters. I should probably consider myself lucky that you didn't consider my presentation of an alternate Santa Claus a slur against *his* good name and go
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
From: s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com I see you're in troll mode today. Me? YOU are the one replying to a post that wasn't sent to you, just so you can dump on me. :-) Re Reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't: Define intelligent. I wasn't exactly having a rant! Re I'm sorry you thought my post was tacky. I think your reply was somewhat more so.: You think wrong. Whatever. What probably misled me was you calling my alternative take on a fictional character a slur. I had forgotten how attached people can get to their fictional characters. I should probably consider myself lucky that you didn't consider my presentation of an alternate Santa Claus a slur against *his* good name and go ballistic about that as well. :-) Re As you actually imply in your reply, s3raphita, she should have looked at being told she was about to get knocked up by god as a unique, world-historical privilege. You don't see a little MALE privilege built into this concept?: The idea that if a god makes a move on a human they are *equal* partners is a little naive. Gods have privileges denied to lesser mortals. Not so sure about the MALE bit either. In the legend of Hippolytus, Aphrodite is the cause of his death. He scorned the worship of Aphrodite, preferring Artemis. Aphrodite caused his stepmother, Phaedra, to fall in love with him, knowing Hippolytus would reject her. This led to Phaedra's suicide, and the death of Hippolytus. So goddesses can be bitches just as gods can be pigs. Hint: gods and goddesses are fictional. So are the Bible stories and myths you're describing. HOWEVER, they have import for the people who read them AS stories. The story is, in fact, what they remember, not that it's a metaphor for something. So when you've got gods and goddesses treating themselves like masters and treating the humans they interact with as their slaves, that *story* -- that relationship -- leaves an impression. I am suggesting there is something wrong with the basic stories. You seem just fine with them. I would write this off as different strokes for different folks and forget it, except that you *also* seem fine with the idea that Mary *should* feel grateful and privileged for being selected as a brood mare for a god in one of these stories. I kinda think that this attitude -- coming as it does *from* a woman -- kinda proves my point. The story had lasting impact on those who heard it, and I'm not convinced that the lasting impact was a good one. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Just to follow up, I found time to read a Babelfished version of the German article, and found it interesting. But not interesting enough to really comment on. Thanks, though for your comments, and the invitation to a discussion. Trouble is, I am the furthest person you have ever met from a Biblical scholar, or even a person with any interest in the Bible. It's not that I haven't read it; it's that I have, and don't have the slightest desire to *ever* read it again. So although I can see that the changing views over time of these various books of the Bible, influenced by the politics and the social forces of various eras, would be fascinating to those who know those books, it isn't fascinating to me because I don't. To clarify about my unwillingness to correct this deficiency and learn more about the Bible, it's more a preference issue for me than it is a religious/atheist issue. I still read the occasional spiritual work for purposes of inspiration. The issue is that I'm just not *inspired* by most of the stories in the Bible. They just don't turn me on or resonate with my inner being. They often seem simplistic or obvious or distasteful or all of the above. If I were looking to read things that are regarded as scriptures and actually be *inspired* by them, I'd have to turn to Tibetan works, or Native American shaman tales. Or old Celtic or Norse myths. I don't know why this is. I just can't get it up for *any* of the three major Middle Eastern monotheist religions, or their scriptures. Given how all three have turned out over these last 2-3 millennia, I'm not exactly drawn to them as a source of wisdom. :-) From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period Good response. I have to work today so don't have time to dive into the translation of the German article or reply in depth (and may not have anything to say when I do have time), but your mention of the political and social forces that influenced the different books of the Bible reminded me of -- of all things -- this article that I stumbled upon yesterday. In it, the author Phil Zuckerman
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10885469_1523099367975373_997933288756641562_n.jpg?oh=a20cf850a45894967a9553ce3047c0a4oe=55070DF5__gda__=1426629929_2a93432a436f3140cb3867b8ea0e4d30 https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-... https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10885469_1523099367975373_997933288756641562_n.jpg?oh=a20cf850a45894967a9553ce3047c0a4oe=55070DF5__gda__=1426629929_2a93432a436f3140cb3867b8ea0e4d30 View on fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.aka... https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10885469_1523099367975373_997933288756641562_n.jpg?oh=a20cf850a45894967a9553ce3047c0a4oe=55070DF5__gda__=1426629929_2a93432a436f3140cb3867b8ea0e4d30 Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
From: aryavazhi no_re...@yahoogroups.com || || || https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-... | | | View on fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.aka...|Preview by Yahoo | || It may be a basic flaw in my character, but somehow the thought that I might be pissing off someone who has been dead for a couple of millennia doesn't really strike fear into my heart. Heck, I know people who are terrified that they might do something that pisses off someone who died 8 years ago (MMY) or 16 years ago (Fred Lenz-Rama). I don't know about you, but living in fear of what someone...uh...dead might do to you if you piss them off doesn't strike me as...uh...living.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
You know that was tongue-in-cheek, right?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
From: aryavazhi no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period You know that was tongue-in-cheek, right? You never can tell around here. :-) I was hoping it was, but just in case felt the need to riff on it anyway. There really ARE people on this forum (or at least were until the recent exodus) who are still terrified of doing something that would piss off Maharishi, because they firmly believe that if they do, BAD THINGS will happen to them -- either in this life or the afterlife. I really DO know people from the Fred Lenz-Rama trip who actually believe the same thing. They are still (16 years later) afraid to say anything critical about him because they're afraid that he'll fuck up their afterlife. I would say Go figure and write these examples off as statistical outliers -- anomalies from fringe cults. But when you think about it, isn't trying to control people's behavior in this life by telling them the horrible things that God or Jeezuz or whoever will do to people who piss them off in the next life the whole *basis* of religions like Christianity and Judaism? The fascinating thing to me is that anyone, anytime, anywhere actually bought into this.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period I merely found an interesting and provocative article, and reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't. From the article: Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the Bible, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a woman’s consent is necessary or even desirable before sex. *** I'm going to follow up on this, because 1) it's part of a pattern I see on FFL, 2) it ties in with other posts I've made here, and similar reactions to them, and 3) I'm a little surprised that it's actually YOU doing the reacting this time, s3raphita. I like thinking about religion and spirituality in out of the box ways, ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and that challenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught to think within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives. Thus I really *liked* Valerie Tarico's article. I think she brought up a valid and interesting point about religion, and not just Western or Christian religion -- that women have *zero* rights within those religions, at least when it comes to doing what they're told to do, by either gods, or people claiming to represent those gods. I *like* out of the box stuff like this. In fact, I recently made another post in which I touched on a (to me) similar subject: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/407749 That one got little action in terms of discussion, and for (I suspect) a similar reason -- it asked respondents to think outside the box, and approach a spiritual book (the Bhagavad-Gita) from a new perspective. My point in my post was similar to Valerie's in hers -- no one ever asked Arjuna's *permission* to tell him what to do. It was *expected* that because he was being talked to (not to mention talked down to) by a god or the representation of one on earth (Krishna) that he *HAD* to do what the god told him to do. Arjuna had no choice. He was, in fact, told that his discrimination and sense of compassion and right and wrong were CRAP, and that he should just dump that wimp thinking and go out and kill people, the way Krishna (his better) told him to. Now think about Valerie's article and Mary's story. Was she offered a *choice*? She was not. She was TOLD what to do by a god. And, like all people (male and female) in these scriptural stories, she just *did what she was told to do*. As you actually imply in your reply, s3raphita, she should have looked at being told she was about to get knocked up by god as a unique, world-historical privilege. You don't see a little MALE privilege built into this concept? Not to mention GOD privilege? Mary wasn't *asked* if she'd like to be a part of this; she was TOLD that it was gonna happen. As Valerie points out, she reacted to this by invoking the duties of a *slave* -- Behold the bond slave of the Lord; be it done to me. Is this *really* the relationship you feel a human being has to god -- slave to master? T'would seem that both Jehovah in his actions towards Mary and Krishna in his actions towards Arjuna feel that this is the nature of the relationship they have with these humans -- master-slave, with both Mary and Arjuna doing what they're told I'm sorry you thought my post was tacky. I think your reply was somewhat more so. Every so often I post a piece of my own writing here or forward someone else's that is *supposed* to challenge people's thinking and inspire them to discuss the tired old subjects we deal with on this forum in new and interesting ways. Some people obviously are more comfortable with the tired old ways, and that is their right -- they don't have to either read or reply to my out of the box posts. When they do, and by trying to put them down as tacky or demonstrating a low level of consciousness I interpret this as people trying to assert their supposed supremacy based on staying in the box and trying to demonize anyone who strays out of it. In other words, cult thinking. If anyone has the cojones to discuss out of the box subjects without trying to hit me with your box, I'm up for it... From: s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Wow! That's tacky. As we're about to celebrate one of the main events in the Christian calendar, to link the birth of Christ with rape culture shows a low level of consciousness. Thinking about it it does occur to me that I could turn your slur against you. The whole point of the Nativity narrative in Luke's gospel is to contrast the pomp and glory of worldly
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period I merely found an interesting and provocative article, and reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't. From the article: Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the Bible http://valerietarico.com/2012/11/04/the-bible-says-yes-to-legitimate-rape-and-rape-babies/, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a woman’s consent is necessary or even desirable before sex. *** I'm going to follow up on this, because 1) it's part of a pattern I see on FFL, 2) it ties in with other posts I've made here, and similar reactions to them, and 3) I'm a little surprised that it's actually YOU doing the reacting this time, s3raphita. I like thinking about religion and spirituality in out of the box ways, ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and that challenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught to think within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives. Thus I really *liked* Valerie Tarico's article. I think she brought up a valid and interesting point about religion, and not just Western or Christian religion -- that women have *zero* rights within those religions, at least when it comes to doing what they're told to do, by either gods, or people claiming to represent those gods. I *like* out of the box stuff like this. In fact, I recently made another post in which I touched on a (to me) similar subject: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/407749 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/407749 That one got little action in terms of discussion, and for (I suspect) a similar reason -- it asked respondents to think outside the box, and approach a spiritual book (the Bhagavad-Gita) from a new perspective. My point in my post was similar to Valerie's in hers -- no one ever asked Arjuna's *permission* to tell him what to do. It was *expected* that because he was being talked to (not to mention talked down to) by a god or the representation of one on earth (Krishna) that he *HAD* to do what the god told him to do. Arjuna had no choice. He was, in fact, told that his discrimination and sense of compassion and right and wrong were CRAP, and that he should just dump that wimp thinking and go out and kill people, the way Krishna (his better) told him to. Now think about Valerie's article and Mary's story. Was she offered a *choice*? She was not. She was TOLD what to do by a god. And, like all people (male and female) in these scriptural stories, she just *did what she was told to do*. As you actually imply in your reply, s3raphita, she should have looked at being told she was about to get knocked up by god as a unique, world-historical privilege. You don't see a little MALE privilege built into this concept? Not to mention GOD privilege? Mary wasn't *asked* if she'd like to be a part of this; she was TOLD that it was gonna happen. As Valerie points out, she reacted to this by invoking the duties of a *slave* -- Behold the bond slave of the Lord; be it done to me. Is this *really* the relationship you feel a human being has to god -- slave to master? T'would seem that both Jehovah in his actions towards Mary and Krishna in his actions towards Arjuna feel that this is the nature of the relationship they have with these humans -- master-slave, with both Mary and Arjuna doing what they're told I'm sorry you thought my post was tacky. I think your reply was somewhat more so. Every so often I post a piece of my own writing here or forward someone else's that is *supposed* to challenge people's thinking and inspire them to discuss the tired old subjects we deal with on this forum in new and interesting ways. Some people obviously are more comfortable with the tired old ways, and that is their right -- they don't have to either read or reply to my out of the box posts. When they do, and by trying to put them down as tacky or demonstrating a low level of consciousness I interpret this as people trying to assert their supposed supremacy based on staying in the box and trying to demonize anyone who strays out of it. In other words, cult thinking. If anyone has the cojones to discuss out of the box subjects without trying to hit me with your box, I'm up for it... From: s3raphita@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Wow! That's tacky. As we're about to celebrate one of the main events in the Christian
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
Good response. I have to work today so don't have time to dive into the translation of the German article or reply in depth (and may not have anything to say when I do have time), but your mention of the political and social forces that influenced the different books of the Bible reminded me of -- of all things -- this article that I stumbled upon yesterday. In it, the author Phil Zuckerman rather eloquently deals with the rise of secularism and pooh-poohs the rather egotistic notion from modern atheists that THEY are responsible for it. He makes some valid points that reveal the political and sociological forces that have been working for many years to move people away from belief in religion and towards belief in more humanist philosophies. We’re putting an end to religion: Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher and the exploding new American secularism | | | | | | | | | | | We’re putting an end to religion: Richard Dawkins, Bill ...Religious right extremism, new atheists late-night mockery have religion on the run. American secularism's rising | | | | View on www.salon.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: aryavazhi no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period I like thinking about religion and spirituality in out of the box ways, ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and that challenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught to think within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives.. I too like 'out-of-the box' thinking. I just recently came across this article in a German magazine: Das Buch der Bücher: Zum historischen Kern wurde einfach hinzugedichtet - SPIEGEL ONLINE Wow - that really did it for me. If you happen to know German, somewhat at least, or if you can find a somwhat acceptable online translator - Google translate is sometimes okay, just to get an idea - it seems too much to translate it now, or even summarize it somewhat. The article makes a point that the whole collections of books in the bible spans a time frame of about 1000 years. The article is an interview with a biblical historian, probably a theologian as well, about the emergence of the different books, the time frame, and the social and political reasons behind it. What really struck me, was how recent this all is. 1000 years seem to be a long time, but if you look at it a little closer, the older books of the old testament, the pentateuch, was only fixed and finalized a few centuries before Christ, maybe 6 centuries before. And it was mainly a text of law. If you extrapolate this to our time, it's like saying, we have here this very ancient book from the 15 century, the book of all beginnings. Come on, how old is that? Of course antiquity doesn't mean anything really, but that it has some value is still lurking in our subconscious somehow. And if you look at his analysis, it's all political. He says, that what is called 'Babylonean exile' was just concerning a few elite people who were taken there, away from palestine. When they were released from the exile, they tried to impose their own religion - that is basically, what they had adopted abroad, like monotheism in persia I think, so they came back as an elite, and tried to establish themselves by publishing some lawbooks - the pentateuch - weaving it in with some other, known and older stories, and establish the temple they were building, in Jerusalem, as the center of their power. There was a competing temple elsewhere, and they tried to fight, and I think destroyed the other temple. This is portrayed in the bible as the fight with other tribes, but it wasn't, it was really their own palestine people they were trying to rule, who hadn't followed to the exile. And it seems that Salomon had belonged to the other group. Again, the united the two groups of people by making Abraham the father of Jacob, but originally there were two tribes, one thinking themselves to be in the lineage of Abraham, the other's being the lineage of Jacob, but with this trick, they united the people. Not that I expected that the bible is historically acurate, but it still strikes me, how this emergence of it, the way it came to be, actually spans just a few centuries - if you think of the real long history of human beings on earth - it's just nothing. Of course these men made the rules to dominate their people in their time, and it reflects the social status of these people. In my opinion, this is all political. That is of course not only true for Judaism and Christianity - which was formed to be a state-religion by the Romans. But then in Hinduism, which is anyway more like a collection of religions, there I recently heard, that there is a version, where Ravanna is the good guy, and not Rama, there are temples
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
Just to follow up, I found time to read a Babelfished version of the German article, and found it interesting. But not interesting enough to really comment on. Thanks, though for your comments, and the invitation to a discussion. Trouble is, I am the furthest person you have ever met from a Biblical scholar, or even a person with any interest in the Bible. It's not that I haven't read it; it's that I have, and don't have the slightest desire to *ever* read it again. So although I can see that the changing views over time of these various books of the Bible, influenced by the politics and the social forces of various eras, would be fascinating to those who know those books, it isn't fascinating to me because I don't. To clarify about my unwillingness to correct this deficiency and learn more about the Bible, it's more a preference issue for me than it is a religious/atheist issue. I still read the occasional spiritual work for purposes of inspiration. The issue is that I'm just not *inspired* by most of the stories in the Bible. They just don't turn me on or resonate with my inner being. They often seem simplistic or obvious or distasteful or all of the above. If I were looking to read things that are regarded as scriptures and actually be *inspired* by them, I'd have to turn to Tibetan works, or Native American shaman tales. Or old Celtic or Norse myths. I don't know why this is. I just can't get it up for *any* of the three major Middle Eastern monotheist religions, or their scriptures. Given how all three have turned out over these last 2-3 millennia, I'm not exactly drawn to them as a source of wisdom. :-) From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period Good response. I have to work today so don't have time to dive into the translation of the German article or reply in depth (and may not have anything to say when I do have time), but your mention of the political and social forces that influenced the different books of the Bible reminded me of -- of all things -- this article that I stumbled upon yesterday. In it, the author Phil Zuckerman rather eloquently deals with the rise of secularism and pooh-poohs the rather egotistic notion from modern atheists that THEY are responsible for it. He makes some valid points that reveal the political and sociological forces that have been working for many years to move people away from belief in religion and towards belief in more humanist philosophies. We’re putting an end to religion: Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher and the exploding new American secularism | | | | | | | | | | | We’re putting an end to religion: Richard Dawkins, Bill ...Religious right extremism, new atheists late-night mockery have religion on the run. American secularism's rising | | | | View on www.salon.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: aryavazhi no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period I like thinking about religion and spirituality in out of the box ways, ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and that challenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught to think within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives.. I too like 'out-of-the box' thinking. I just recently came across this article in a German magazine: Das Buch der Bücher: Zum historischen Kern wurde einfach hinzugedichtet - SPIEGEL ONLINE Wow - that really did it for me. If you happen to know German, somewhat at least, or if you can find a somwhat acceptable online translator - Google translate is sometimes okay, just to get an idea - it seems too much to translate it now, or even summarize it somewhat. The article makes a point that the whole collections of books in the bible spans a time frame of about 1000 years. The article is an interview with a biblical historian, probably a theologian as well, about the emergence of the different books, the time frame, and the social and political reasons behind it. What really struck me, was how recent this all is. 1000 years seem to be a long time, but if you look at it a little closer, the older books of the old testament, the pentateuch, was only fixed and finalized a few centuries before Christ, maybe 6 centuries before. And it was mainly a text of law. If you extrapolate this to our time, it's like saying, we have here this very ancient book from the 15 century, the book of all beginnings. Come on, how old is that? Of course antiquity doesn't mean anything really, but that it has some value is still lurking in our subconscious somehow
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
higher level than any of the original books where. The same may be true for much of Hinduism. image http://www.spiegel.de/spiegelgeschichte/bibel-wie-die-heilige-schrift-entstand-a-1005418.html Das Buch der Bücher: Zum historischen Kern wurde e... http://www.spiegel.de/spiegelgeschichte/bibel-wie-die-heilige-schrift-entstand-a-1005418.html Der Bibelwissenschaftler Ernst Axel Knauf über die Entstehung der Bibel, die literarische Kunst ihrer Verfasser und das Neue am Neuen Testament. View on www.spiegel.de http://www.spiegel.de/spiegelgeschichte/bibel-wie-die-heilige-schrift-entstand-a-1005418.html Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : *From:* TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, December 22, 2014 7:44 AM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period */I merely found an interesting and provocative article, and reposted it in case someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't. /* */ /* */From the article: Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the Bible http://valerietarico.com/2012/11/04/the-bible-says-yes-to-legitimate-rape-and-rape-babies/, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a woman’s consent is necessary or even desirable before sex./* */ /* * */ /* */I'm going to follow up on this, because 1) it's part of a pattern I see on FFL, 2) it ties in with other posts I've made here, and similar reactions to them, and 3) I'm a little surprised that it's actually YOU doing the reacting this time, s3raphita. /* */I like thinking about religion and spirituality in out of the box ways, ways that approach the old stories from new perspectives, and that challenge us to step out of the conditioned boxes we've been taught to think within and approach these stories from wholly new perspectives. Thus I really *liked* Valerie Tarico's article. I think she brought up a valid and interesting point about religion, and not just Western or Christian religion -- that women have *zero* rights within those religions, at least when it comes to doing what they're told to do, by either gods, or people claiming to represent those gods. /* */I *like* out of the box stuff like this. In fact, I recently made another post in which I touched on a (to me) similar subject: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/407749 That one got little action in terms of discussion, and for (I suspect) a similar reason -- it asked respondents to think outside the box, and approach a spiritual book (the Bhagavad-Gita) from a new perspective. My point in my post was similar to Valerie's in hers -- no one ever asked Arjuna's *permission* to tell him what to do. It was *expected* that because he was being talked to (not to mention talked down to) by a god or the representation of one on earth (Krishna) that he *HAD* to do what the god told him to do. Arjuna had no choice. He was, in fact, told that his discrimination and sense of compassion and right and wrong were CRAP, and that he should just dump that wimp thinking and go out and kill people, the way Krishna (his better) told him to. /* */Now think about Valerie's article and Mary's story. Was she offered a *choice*? She was not. She was TOLD what to do by a god. And, like all people (male and female) in these scriptural stories, she just *did what she was told to do*. As you actually imply in your reply, s3raphita, she should have looked at being told she was about to get knocked up by god as a unique, world-historical privilege. /* */You don't see a little MALE privilege built into this concept? Not to mention GOD privilege? Mary wasn't *asked* if she'd like to be a part of this; she was TOLD that it was gonna happen. As Valerie points out, she reacted to this by invoking the duties of a *slave* -- Behold the bond slave of the Lord; be it done to me. Is this *really* the relationship you feel a human being has to god -- slave to master? T'would seem that both Jehovah in his actions towards Mary and Krishna in his actions towards Arjuna feel that this is the nature of the relationship they have with these humans -- master-slave, with both Mary and Arjuna doing what they're told/* */I'm sorry you thought my post was tacky. I think your reply was somewhat more so. Every so often I post a piece of my own writing here or forward someone else's that is *supposed* to challenge people's thinking and inspire them to discuss the tired old subjects we deal with on this forum in new and interesting ways. Some people obviously are more comfortable with the tired old ways, and that is their right -- they don't have to either read
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas period
I merely found an interesting and provocative article, and reposted it in case
someone had anything intelligent to say about it. Too bad you didn't.
From the article: Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the
Bible, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a woman’s consent
is necessary or even desirable before sex.
From: s3raph...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 2:50 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fascinating essay to read during this Christmas
period
Wow! That's tacky. As we're about to celebrate one of the main events in
the Christian calendar, to link the birth of Christ with rape culture shows a
low level of consciousness.
Thinking about it it does occur to me that I could turn your slur against you.
The whole point of the Nativity narrative in Luke's gospel is to contrast the
pomp and glory of worldly power with the story of a threatened child born into
abject poverty. A member of the underclass as we'd say today.
If the child really was the bastard product of a brutal rape that would only
emphasize his lack of status in the eyes of the social elite. Social status is
conventional; our true nature transcends social roles. That's what our
Christian brethren are expressing in mythological imagery.
There is no shortage of sexual exploitation in The Bible and The Koran - seems
odd to highlight the Virgin Birth which is manifestly presented as a unique,
world-historical privilege and must have contributed more than any other factor
to a reverence for women in the West.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
It's not, after all, as if anyone asked for Mary's consent when knocking her
up, right?
Why rape is so intrinsic to religion
| |
| | | | | | | |
| Why rape is so intrinsic to religionStories like the virgin birth lack freely
given female consent. It's telling how ready we still are to embrace them |
| |
| View on www.salon.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| |
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