Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula
Very very well said! From: salyavin808 fintlewoodle...@mail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:36 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: MMY's TM theory is his attempt to explain his understanding of meditation and enlightenment in modern terms. This understanding is colored by his religious upbringing and obviously is biased in favor of his belief-system. His description of the behavior of a fully enlightened person assumes all the perfectionism inherent in religious dogma, and you don't need to assume that everything is literally true in order to appreciate the significance of his attempt. Also, you (and I and many others) have made the mistake of assuming that the behavioral patterns associated with the work in progress we call the beginnings of Cosmic Consciousness is identical with the theoretical end-point of a jivanmukti, or fully stress-free individual. The fact that someone is acting spontaneously at all times simply means that they are sufficiently stress-free to always have some level of pure consciousness present. That doesn't mean that they suddenly stop being the person they were pre-CC. While one assumes that the worst aspects of someone's personality might mellow with progression in CC/GC/UC, that doesn't mean that they turn into a proverbial saint overnight -if ever. Besides, even the Christian saints weren't always pleasant people to be around, even if they never sinned in Christian religious terms. And of course, MMY could be totally wrong about much or all of what he claimed for enlightenment, regardless of how enlightened someone becomes by TM standards. The real world generally isn't quite how the theorist theorizes it is, afterall. So we can have our cake and eat it? Or throw it against the wall. And no one can say it's better or worse than doing the opposite? That's quite a philosophy to rally round. The best thing I can say about TM philosophy is that it's a mighty fine sales pitch, but just like my vacuum cleaner that didn't cure my asthma, TM didn't either. To refresh our memory, the idea behind exposure to the unified field is that we take on the supposed qualities of that and exhibit improved moral behaviour (amongst other things) The more meditation, the more moral we should become. We should look at the behaviour of many long term TMers as falsification of the theory not proof that it's more complicated and probably still working. Just as we should admit that the ME doesn't work because there are still earthquakes, not that it works because there might be a period of *more* earthquakes. I actually agree with you that Marshy was wrong. There is what actually happens to meditators (not all that much if we are honest) and there is the supporting dogma that everyone still clings to that makes TM out to be the most amazing thing of any kind ever. There comes a time to ditch optimism and replace it with realism, it won't sell as many yagyas but it's gotta be fairer on the domies, they might be able to make something of their lives if they had the comfort blanket of saving the world taken away. I think this is why people don't take TM science all that seriously. We all know that they are hardcore TBs, I've been to lectures by some of them and instead of getting a fair and balanced (and interesting) overview of what they were doing in their research it was all the usual crowd pleasing BS about cosmic consciousness. It's a bit premature to be making wild claims about unified fields when we don't know anything about them or even if it exists. No wonder the mainstream takes MUM with a pinch of salt! L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: I still want to know how proponents of TM and its supposed benefits that are touted as being nearly miraculous can BE proponents of TM AND continue to tout its benefits when the actual real time real world activities of many long time meditators leave much to be desired. As an example the current situation of a MUM faculty member being fired for embezzling money from MUM and using some of the money to reward students in exchange for having sex with him. If TM in essence washes clean our stresses, AND spontaneously infuses the Unified Field and all its supposedly amazing qualities into the body, mind, emotions of the meditator, then how do people like this MUM faculty member wind up doing things like this? If the Unified Field is the most powerful force in existence, then it would seem that a human being's own mind has the power to overrule the natural spontaneous right behavior that comes from right action generated by an individual who's physiology and mind are increasingly infused with the Absolute. This poses a big
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula
Don't fret Lawson, it won't be. From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: [...] I actually agree with you that Marshy was wrong. There is what actually happens to meditators (not all that much if we are honest) and there is the supporting dogma that everyone still clings to that makes TM out to be the most amazing thing of any kind ever. If the most recent research on TM and PTSD is replicated by independent studies, only former True Believers will continue with this line of reasoning. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula
I have said to myself and been reviled for it here on wonderful FFL From: salyavin808 fintlewoodle...@mail.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 2:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Certainly, the Congolese refugee study is likely to be an outlier. However, it might not be. The situation that triggered the PTSD was different than for veterans and first responders, and equal-ish numbers of men and women were tested, though I don't recall if any gender-related differences were found. The study was very straight-forward, short-term, with both clinically and statistically large effects, so we can be sure that people will attempt to replicate it -especially people with no connection to the TM organization. You appear to be assuming that the study is deliberately fraudulent or was so badly done that the results are meaningless. I make no such assumptions. I think it's important not to make assumptions. I remember learning TM and getting a real buzz and thinking this must be the cure for all ills, the book certainly said so. It didn't last though and since then I've done a few things that started with glow of potential but fizzled out later. I suspect it's some sort of neural network thing, a kind of freedom you get from a sense of hope or at least a change of mental scenery. Or placebos, and they don't last very long either Time will tell for people with PTSD but as even you say about people uncovering and releasing stress that makes them act out of character in unpleasant ways, can we be sure that teaching a technique known to do this to combat vets a great idea? L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@ wrote: Don't fret Lawson, it won't be. From: sparaig LEnglish5@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 5:00 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@ wrote: [...] I actually agree with you that Marshy was wrong. There is what actually happens to meditators (not all that much if we are honest) and there is the supporting dogma that everyone still clings to that makes TM out to be the most amazing thing of any kind ever. If the most recent research on TM and PTSD is replicated by independent studies, only former True Believers will continue with this line of reasoning. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula
the fact that they imply is one of their smoke and mirrors bull manure - if they can do it, let 'em prove it - I expect it will be the same type of TMO proof we have always gotten, you know the TMO Just believe it cuz we say so and give us some money to support it too. From: sparaig lengli...@cox.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 3:55 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula I'm not sure where I mentioned out of character and releasing stress in this conversation, but it might apply... The DLF implies that there are teachers specifically trained to work with PTSD victims. Perhaps they have more detailed instructions on how to deal with unstressing. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, salyavin808 fintlewoodlewix@... wrote: [...] Time will tell for people with PTSD but as even you say about people uncovering and releasing stress that makes them act out of character in unpleasant ways, can we be sure that teaching a technique known to do this to combat vets a great idea?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula
I still want to know how proponents of TM and its supposed benefits that are touted as being nearly miraculous can BE proponents of TM AND continue to tout its benefits when the actual real time real world activities of many long time meditators leave much to be desired. As an example the current situation of a MUM faculty member being fired for embezzling money from MUM and using some of the money to reward students in exchange for having sex with him. If TM in essence washes clean our stresses, AND spontaneously infuses the Unified Field and all its supposedly amazing qualities into the body, mind, emotions of the meditator, then how do people like this MUM faculty member wind up doing things like this? If the Unified Field is the most powerful force in existence, then it would seem that a human being's own mind has the power to overrule the natural spontaneous right behavior that comes from right action generated by an individual who's physiology and mind are increasingly infused with the Absolute. This poses a big problem to me, in that it either means the Absolute isn't as powerful as we were told it is, and any human whim can overrule it, or TM really doesn't have that great an effect in generating spontaneous right action, or in infusing the Unified Field into the individual's awareness to begin with. If as many have said here before, TM is fabulous and it does do all the stuff claimed for it, but individuals can choose to indulge in bad behavior whenever they want, then what good is TM ultimately? If meditators and sidhas of many years standing do these kinds of things then the scientific claims for TM fall a bit short. Have at it FFL. From: curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 12:48 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: a WONDERFUL formula Very cool response Lawson. I appreciate that. And I do dig that you put out research for us to think about concerning brain states in TM. I am still a work in progress in analyzing any of this, and find the initial biases daunting to cut through. But the subject is worthy of discussion and I'm very glad you continue to bring it up. The perspective of how this research gets scoffed at doesn't surprise me. And I hope that the more obvious biases of certain researchers doesn't mean that the topic itself gets ditched. In my lifetime I would like some more evidence whether TM or another form of meditation is worth my time. I am biased in favor of the experience of TM for myself through so much exposure. But if it turns out that some other practice is really better for my brain I would learn another one. I am less inclined to believe that the so called higher states of TM are anything close to what they are sold as. I think they might be an aberration that is undesirable, at least for me. Anyway keep posting this stuff, it feeds the minds on all perspectives of this issue. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: It is certainly true that I don't really *know* what meditation techniques are better or best, or if the TM definition of enlightenment is right or wrong or if the end-result of consistently produced coherent gamma EEG from most other techniques isn't the same or better than the end result of consistently produced coherent alpha EEG from TM. All theories can only be approximations of the truth anyway, and that is assuming that there is a truth in the first place. but I run into a lot of people who insist that TM is just another mantra technique, and if you point out that this conclusion was reached in the 1970's based on looking at the EEG of long term meditators who had only been practicing a year or three, while, the latest long-term research on TM (and Buddhist techniques for that matter) looks at people who have been meditating as long as 50 years, the same people just look at you funny, insisting that the 1-to-3-year study can be extrapolated to the 10-to-50-year study and if there are any differences found, it is due to experimenter bias on the part of the TM researchers. That attitude, plus the attitude by many prominent researchers into Buddhist meditation, that the breath suspension state found in PC during TM is just an idling state rather than something profound, gets to me. I mean, of course it is just an idling state: that is what makes in profound in the first place. Hence my hostility and arrogant tone. It's a response to what I perceive as everyone else's arrogant tone. I'm very envious of Fred Travis' ability to maintain some level of equanimity given all the innuendo and veiled insults he gets from the rest of the scientific community. Unfortunately, I take things personally, even if the criticism is leveled against him, rather than me. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
