[farsiweb]Farsi, heh, +, hamzeh, above
> > The > > purpose of such standards should not be to tell people how to write > > Farsi. People decide how to write Farsi. The standard should encode > > and standardize what people write. Exactly! Is it not crazy that word processors are being made to *emulate* old-fashioned typewriters which, because it was not practical for typewriters to include all the beautiful variety of characters that the human hand + pen + paper could do let certain characters fall out of use in certain kinds of mass-produced publications! Now a generation has grown up deprived of them. And then they go and advise Microsoft and Microsoft then dictates. (Look at the use of Western style numerals on all Middle East websites if you really want to appreciate the problem.) Now a plea to all you silent lurkers: It would be really nice if you could drop a line to Microsoft: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?LN=EN-US and tell them to include this character in the Times New Roman font. We're talking about: Arabic letter heh with yeh above, hex: 06C0, Dec: 1728 Times New Roman is the global default font yet it is lacking this character. And if people are unable to download one of the many Persian fonts that do have this letter, what is viewed is the letter "teh marbuta". There is no use having this unicode discussion if the default browser font can't display the character, right? And Microsoft only "notices" when bombarded with lots of complaints about bugs. Thanks, Connie ___ FarsiWeb mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/farsiweb
Re: [farsiweb] Farsi heh + hamzeh above
Abi Lover wrote:
>> From: Ali Khanban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> It seems to me that these are all different shapes of one letter
>> . But is a mixture of two letters: and
>> a transformed . It is not even a ligature, because it is not
>> supposed to be handled by font to write instead of
>> >.
>>
>> Abi Lover wrote:
>
>
> Letter forms like or are
> representations of TWO sounds and letters, a vowel, plus what
> linguists call a "glottal stop", which is represented by the hamzeh.
> Linguists have traditionally transliterated this glottal stop in the
> Latin script with an inverted comma {'}. Actually, the sound it
> represents is more often a glottal plosive than a glottal stop. In a
> word like , it is a glottal stop; but in a word like ,
> it is a glottal plosive. In the English language, this glottal stop
> (or rather plosive) occurs only at the beginning of words which begin
> with a vowel, like {a,e,i,o,u}, therefore it is not represented by a
> separate character. it is taken for granted. But in Arabic and Farsi,
> because it can also occur in the middle and at the end of words, it
> needs to be represented by a special character of its own. It is in
> fact a fully fledged consonant, and has its own distinct sound and
> alphabetical representation in the language. Thus it is not correct to
> say that all these different letter forms are "different shapes of one
> letter ". They are representations of different vowels plus
> the glottal stop. is a representation of the vowels {o}
> or {u}, plus the glottal stop or plosive. In , the glottal
> stop occurs after the vowel; in , the glottal plosive occurs
> before the vowel. But in both cases, the shape represents a
> combination of the two.
I am not agree with you in your conclusion. Again I insist that there is
a letter called in Arabic and it is used in Farsi as you
described. But the fact is that this is one letter with different shapes
according to the sound and place of it in the word. In we can't
say that sounds as , because there is an which
is not written, as we always omit them. And because of that , the
letter is written on a base shaped as . Linguistically, in
a word like , we have:
a consonant
a vowel (is not written)
a consonant (is written on a base like the letter vav>
a vowel (is not written)
a consonant
a consonant (is changed to tashdid)
a vowel (is not written)
a consonant.
is a letter with different shapes. These shapes are not always
the same in Farsi and Arabic. For example, in Farsi we use a shape
for in which would be a shape like
if we had used the Arabic style.
Best
-khanban-
|| Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
||| Imperial College of Sci, Tech & Med, London SW7 2BZ, UK
|| Tel +44 (20) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban
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Re: [farsiweb] Farsi heh + hamzeh above
>From: Ali Khanban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Abi Lover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [farsiweb]Farsi, heh, +, hamzeh, above
>Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:41:57 +0100
>
>Hi,
>
>It seems to me that these are all different shapes of one letter
>. But is a mixture of two letters: and a
>transformed . It is not even a ligature, because it is not supposed to
>be handled by font to write instead of >.
>
>Best
>-khanban-
>
>Abi Lover wrote:
Letter forms like or are representations of
TWO sounds and letters, a vowel, plus what linguists call a "glottal stop",
which is represented by the hamzeh. Linguists have traditionally
transliterated this glottal stop in the Latin script with an inverted comma
{'}. Actually, the sound it represents is more often a glottal plosive than
a glottal stop. In a word like , it is a glottal stop; but in a word
like , it is a glottal plosive. In the English language, this
glottal stop (or rather plosive) occurs only at the beginning of words which
begin with a vowel, like {a,e,i,o,u}, therefore it is not represented by a
separate character. it is taken for granted. But in Arabic and Farsi,
because it can also occur in the middle and at the end of words, it needs to
be represented by a special character of its own. It is in fact a fully
fledged consonant, and has its own distinct sound and alphabetical
representation in the language. Thus it is not correct to say that all these
different letter forms are "different shapes of one letter ". They
are representations of different vowels plus the glottal stop. is a representation of the vowels {o} or {u}, plus the glottal stop
or plosive. In , the glottal stop occurs after the vowel; in
, the glottal plosive occurs before the vowel. But in both cases,
the shape represents a combination of the two.
Returning to the subject of , in this case the hamzeh is not
used to represent a glottal stop (or plosive) at all, but by a centuries old
convention it is used to represent the Farsi , when it follows the
letter . That convention has served the language adequately for
centuries, and one does not simply change a centuries old convention by an
arbitrary decision. Whether this particular shape can correctly be defined
as a ligature or not may be open to discussion. A ligature normally consists
of two or more letters of the alphabet which are physically joined together,
like in Farsi. A hamzeh does not connect to anything. It behaves more
like a diacritical mark, rather like the French accent. But the principle is
still the same. Just as it is possible to create a shape like , which consists of TWO sounds and characters, and which can then be
parsed into its constituent parts using the correct algorithm in the
computer, it is also possible to create the shape , which
consists of two letters which can be parsed into its constituent parts.
Regards
Abi
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Re: [farsiweb]Farsi, heh, +, hamzeh, above
Hi,
It seems to me that these are all different shapes of one letter
. But and a
transformed . It is not even a ligature, because it is not supposed
to be handled by font to write instead of .
Best
-khanban-
Abi Lover wrote:
> I don' agree with Khanban's reasons for not using the letter form + hamzeh above>. The same reasons could be given for not using hamzeh above>. For example, {mas'ul} could also be written as {mas
> ool} (with alef instead of hamzeh), and {so'a^l} could also be written
> as {so aal} (with alef-madd instead of hamzeh); and it is quite
> possible that in the distant future people will start writing them
> that way. However, if it is true that the Unicode standard encodes
> this shape in a way that is not compatible with Farsi, then that would
> be a justifiable reason for not adopting it in the standard. But in
> that case, it should be explained in the standard why it cannot be
> adopted, and it should also be explained (especially for the benefit
> of software developers for whom Farsi is not the native language) that
> this shape is commonly used in Farsi, and that there is nothing to
> stop font dev! elopers and application developers from supporting this
> shape as a ligature, provided that it is properly implemented so that
> it can be correctly parsed into its appropriate Unicode equivalents.
>
> I have also noticed that on the latest ISRI standard for a Farsi
> keyboard layout, this shape is not supported either. It supports + hamzeh above>, and even supports some obscure Arabic characters
> which are hardly ever used in Farsi, such as the , and
> , but not , which
> is extensively used in farsi. There is no justification for this. The
> purpose of such standards should not be to tell people how to write
> Farsi. People decide how to write Farsi. The standard should encode
> and standardize what people write. A keyboard layout is not dependent
> on Unicode encodings. Since this letter form is used extensively in
> Farsi, it should be possible to enter it with a single stroke of the
> keyboard, as is the case with , instead of having
> to type two key strokes to write it; and font and software d!
> evelopers should be guided to support it as a ligature in their fonts
> and applications.
>
> Abi
>
>
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--
|| Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
||| Imperial College of Sci, Tech & Med, London SW7 2BZ, UK
|| Tel +44 (20) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban
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[farsiweb]Farsi, heh, +, hamzeh, above
I don' agree with Khanban's reasons for not using the letter form . The same reasons could be given for not using . For example, {mas'ul} could also be written as {mas ool} (with alef instead of hamzeh), and {so'a^l} could also be written as {so aal} (with alef-madd instead of hamzeh); and it is quite possible that in the distant future people will start writing them that way. However, if it is true that the Unicode standard encodes this shape in a way that is not compatible with Farsi, then that would be a justifiable reason for not adopting it in the standard. But in that case, it should be explained in the standard why it cannot be adopted, and it should also be explained (especially for the benefit of software developers for whom Farsi is not the native language) that this shape is commonly used in Farsi, and that there is nothing to stop font dev!
elopers and application developers from supporting this shape as a ligature, provided that it is properly implemented so that it can be correctly parsed into its appropriate Unicode equivalents.
I have also noticed that on the latest ISRI standard for a Farsi keyboard layout, this shape is not supported either. It supports , and even supports some obscure Arabic characters which are hardly ever used in Farsi, such as the , and , but not , which is extensively used in farsi. There is no justification for this. The purpose of such standards should not be to tell people how to write Farsi. People decide how to write Farsi. The standard should encode and standardize what people write. A keyboard layout is not dependent on Unicode encodings. Since this letter form is used extensively in Farsi, it should be possible to enter it with a single stroke of the keyboard, as is the case with , instead of having to type two key strokes to write it; and font and software d!
evelopers should be guided to support it as a ligature in their fonts and applications.
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