Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Apologies for my late reply, I was gone for a week. On Aug 1, 2009, at 1:44 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 08:16:50AM -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: CD in is nothing more than an analog input. PA ignores all the analog inputs other than as a digital PCM source. Treating all the analog inputs as digital sources and not allowing the hardware to mix them to output has various drawbacks. I've just been covering some of them. You're continuing to conflate two issues - hardware mixing of multiple PCM streams (which some hardware supports but PA doesn't make use of) Actually, I never referred to multiple PCM streams, just PCM + multiple analog mixing. and having control over the levels of analog inputs that are mixed straight into the analog output stream. PA exposes some of these, but not all of them - I must have missed it. Where is it possible in PA to send *any* analog input directly to analog output? however, you can still use an alternative mixer app if you want to configure this for your specific niche use case. Which is what I currently do. However, my entry into this foray was caused by the current maintainer of gst-mixer stating that he would support it being removed from the default install image and comps. From there it's a short step to it never getting compiled against current libs and eventually falling away entirely. For PA to suit my needs, and for this not to be a problem for me, I simply need support for sending analog inputs to analog outputs. Nothing more. The CD-In case is simply one instance of that capability and one I don't really care about. However, from a coding perspective, once you support CD-In or Aux or Line-In being sent directly to analog output, all of the others are done too, you just change the input channel and everything else is the same. So, from my perspective, saying that you don't need to support CD-In because it's a dead and deprecated usage of the hardware, and therefore you don't need to support *any* analog input to analog output control is a logically fallacious argument (specifically, generalization from one to the whole). Whether CD-In usage is dead or not, the other uses aren't. So, for all I care, we can skip CD-In support entirely, but Line-In and Aux should work. And, of course, going back to what I just said, once either of those two works, you already have the back end necessary to support CD-In for free. So he's worried about unconnected CD drives causing bug reports. Fine, don't enable CD-In, but that's not a valid excuse to leave the other ports dysfunctional. When Lennart says PulseAudio does not support hardware mixing he is *not* talking about the case you're describing. Well, it *doesn't* support the case I'm describing, whether that's what he means when he says so or not. -- Doug Ledford dledf...@redhat.com GPG KeyID: CFBFF194 http://people.redhat.com/dledford InfiniBand Specific RPMS http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 2009-08-11 at 20:50 -0400, Doug Ledford wrote: Which is what I currently do. However, my entry into this foray was caused by the current maintainer of gst-mixer stating that he would support it being removed from the default install image and comps. From there it's a short step to it never getting compiled against current libs and eventually falling away entirely. For PA to suit my needs, and for this not to be a problem for me, I simply need support for sending analog inputs to analog outputs. Nothing more. I don't intend to maintain gst-mixer at all any more, and I intend to drop it entirely from the distribution. There are several other ALSA mixers you can use, like alsamixer , alsamixergui, xfce's mixer or kmix. I'd recommend alsamixer. gst-mixer was only ever a stopgap for F11. (specifically, generalization from one to the whole). Whether CD-In usage is dead or not, the other uses aren't. So, for all I care, we can skip CD-In support entirely, but Line-In and Aux should work. And, of course, going back to what I just said, once either of those two works, you already have the back end necessary to support CD-In for free. So he's worried about unconnected CD drives causing bug reports. Fine, don't enable CD-In, but that's not a valid excuse to leave the other ports dysfunctional. You mean non-functional. The current Rawhide supports input selection in gnome-volume-control and pavucontrol, anyway, so your concern is now unneeded. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 06:40:12AM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 12:29:36AM -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: That reading in the data digitally uses non trivial amounts of PCI and CPU bandwidth. If I can't hear the difference between the two modes, then that CPU usage is a total waste of resources. I have other things I want my CPU to be doing. If 150K/sec is non-trivial PCI bandwidth, I think you should probably ask for a refund on your motherboard. From a power management point of view I'd like to agree that offloading this from the CPU is a good thing, but Lennart's right - most newly built machines don't hook these up, and adding a control that influences CD volume on a small number of machines and does nothing whatsoever on a larger number isn't a sensible UI optimisation. It's also things like erratic output via PA versus smooth output via analog input. This particular laptop pops and crackles every time the PCM starts/stops, while analog signals are much cleaner. And it would be pretty easy to have a warn once dialog that tells users that attempt to adjust the CD in volume that it may not have any effect if the analog input isn't connected to the sound card or if the cd playback software skips the analog input in favor of digital data transfer. You could even ask users after an adjustment if the adjustment made any difference, and if it didn't, you could remove it from the UI. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 01:01 -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 06:40:12AM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 12:29:36AM -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: That reading in the data digitally uses non trivial amounts of PCI and CPU bandwidth. If I can't hear the difference between the two modes, then that CPU usage is a total waste of resources. I have other things I want my CPU to be doing. If 150K/sec is non-trivial PCI bandwidth, I think you should probably ask for a refund on your motherboard. From a power management point of view I'd like to agree that offloading this from the CPU is a good thing, but Lennart's right - most newly built machines don't hook these up, and adding a control that influences CD volume on a small number of machines and does nothing whatsoever on a larger number isn't a sensible UI optimisation. It's also things like erratic output via PA versus smooth output via analog input. What the hell? How is 'PA versus analog input' a remotely sensible opposition? How are those things even related? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 20:20 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: Le mercredi 29 juillet 2009 à 17:49 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit : On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:42 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. Rather, it works around it. The problems in the kernel drivers are usually still there... Before PA a sound problem didn't freeze the GUI (effectively bricking the system for normal users). Now it can. In my case, a few months ago, it was doing so because a new PA version could not parse a manual config change advertised in Fedora's own Glitch-free audio feature page a release before. Oh, you must not have been around when esound was used in gnome. esd used to die all the time and drag down applications with it as it went. The app would sit there waiting to ring it's bell (or whatever) and since esd wasn't responding, it would just stop. Of course, you might blame the application (or maybe gnome) for assuming that the app couldn't go on until that little bell chime rang. R. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:25 -0500, Dr. Diesel wrote: PA, how are they going to get fixed? Telepathy? How long do we expect people to tolerate these bugs before they move on? I agree, there's only so long that people are willing to wait. But you actually have to file a bug before you move on or you haven't contributed at all. I have bugs all over my now laptop and I could just switch OSes, but I'm willing to be a little patient to allow things to catch up. More importantly, I'm willing to file bugs and let someone address them. But when you have a problem and go to a forum and find a solution and don't ever report a bug, then you've got no right to bitch and whine that bugs never get fixed and you get sick of waiting. This of course is just good advice and has nothing to do with pulseaudio, other then making the point in this thread. R. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Le vendredi 31 juillet 2009 à 12:54 +1000, Rodd Clarkson a écrit : On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 20:20 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: Le mercredi 29 juillet 2009 à 17:49 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit : On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:42 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. Rather, it works around it. The problems in the kernel drivers are usually still there... Before PA a sound problem didn't freeze the GUI (effectively bricking the system for normal users). Now it can. In my case, a few months ago, it was doing so because a new PA version could not parse a manual config change advertised in Fedora's own Glitch-free audio feature page a release before. Oh, you must not have been around when esound was used in gnome. I was around when gnome 0.3 was published by the rh labs esd used to die all the time and drag down applications with it as it went. The app would sit there waiting to ring it's bell (or whatever) and since esd wasn't responding, it would just stop. esd at its worst never had the full-desktop-blackout effect pa has now. esd made at most one or two app fail with clear feadback that esd was as fault. Since the start of the F12 cycle I count at least 2 different audio bugs that resulted in a complete desktop hang with no meaningful error reporting or any way to recover the system. -- Nicolas Mailhot signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Fri, 2009-07-31 at 11:10 +, Thomas Janssen wrote: I'd like to ask everyone to test this new volume logic. If you don't raise your voice now that some output port is not properly detected or audio is too faint then later on you won't have any right to complain. I think you do what you can to make an excellent job on PA. What i really dont like is this quoted part. Not everybody is able to test that right now. Means all that people who can't (for whatever reasons), are screwed later (whatever later means). Two points. Firstly, that's the nature of testing. Not everyone can test things and sometimes some peoples situations get missed. Secondly, Lennart posted this to fedora-devel-list which is for people willing to test the current version of fedora. So everyone on this list who interested in this can test it should they wish. R. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 01:01:44AM -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: It's also things like erratic output via PA versus smooth output via analog input. This particular laptop pops and crackles every time the PCM starts/stops, while analog signals are much cleaner. There's a patch in the rawhide kernel that may improve this, depending on your codec. You can also disable HDA power saving. And it would be pretty easy to have a warn once dialog that tells users that attempt to adjust the CD in volume that it may not have any effect if the analog input isn't connected to the sound card or if the cd playback software skips the analog input in favor of digital data transfer. You could even ask users after an adjustment if the adjustment made any difference, and if it didn't, you could remove it from the UI. We have a solution that we know always works, and it has negligable cost. That's a much more straightforward design than one that has to attempt to explain to the user that depending on whether or not there's a specific piece of wire in their computer they may or may not hear something in the CD player. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
eOn Sat, 01.08.09 00:41, Doug Ledford (dledf...@redhat.com) wrote: - and the killer argument: we don't even ship a CD player app that could make use of the analog CDDA playback path. To my konwledge there is none in the default install, nor in the entire distro. And this has nothing to do with whether or not the mixer should be able to deal with analog in to analog out directly, which was my complaint. The CD portion of it was just one instance, the other being my use of line in for my iPhone. Assuming that because you don't have access to a CD player that does CDDA based playing today means that it simply doesn't work in the hardware is just silly. And assuming that because your CD in path doesn't work that no analog input path should be redirected in hardware to speakers is also just as silly. In three ways you seem very confused. Firstly, analog path CDDA playback is a feature that got removed from Fedora long before PA/g-v-c decided to hide the CD volume slider. There is no CD player supporting the analog path in Fedora. So _I_am_not_the_one_you_should_be_complaining_to_. Secondly, PA doesn't even take away the ability to control the CD slider, at all. In contrast to analog path CDDA playback where we don't ship any tool that supports this anymore, we do ship numerous alternative ALSA mixers, for the UI and for the terminal which expose the CD slider. So, PA does not take anything away from you. And so again, _I_am_not_the_one_you_should_be_complaining_to_. Thirdly, you are conflating CDDA playback with support analog input/output in some way that makes no sense at all. Of course we support analog input and output. After all this is software for sound cards! Claiming we would be dropping support for analog audio input/output is as stupid as claiming Obama wasn't born in the US. All PA does here is hiding a few obsolete ports, such as CDDA, which as mentioned above, isn't otherwise supported anymore anyway. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 08:16:50AM -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: CD in is nothing more than an analog input. PA ignores all the analog inputs other than as a digital PCM source. Treating all the analog inputs as digital sources and not allowing the hardware to mix them to output has various drawbacks. I've just been covering some of them. You're continuing to conflate two issues - hardware mixing of multiple PCM streams (which some hardware supports but PA doesn't make use of) and having control over the levels of analog inputs that are mixed straight into the analog output stream. PA exposes some of these, but not all of them - however, you can still use an alternative mixer app if you want to configure this for your specific niche use case. When Lennart says PulseAudio does not support hardware mixing he is *not* talking about the case you're describing. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
2009/7/28 Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de: snip I'd like to ask everyone to test this new volume logic. If you don't raise your voice now that some output port is not properly detected or audio is too faint then later on you won't have any right to complain. I think you do what you can to make an excellent job on PA. What i really dont like is this quoted part. Not everybody is able to test that right now. Means all that people who can't (for whatever reasons), are screwed later (whatever later means). Together with the attitude of WONTFIX in BZ that will come up, as you said, sounds really bad. But i might understand it wrong. Greetings from one of the lucky users who has no problem with PA. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 04:53:25PM -0500, Matthew Woehlke wrote: Doug Ledford wrote: Every system I build still keeps the analog signal cable between the CD/DVD and the soundcard. This doesn't help if I try to watch a movie as that signal has to be decoded and then played, but for audio CDs it is still a perfectly acceptable means of playing the music. So I'm not sure where this CD in is obsolete comes from. Even the motherboard I bought about 2 months ago still has a CD in port and the CD/DVD in that machine still has an analog output. CD is digital and can be read in digital format by your CPU and sent in digital to the sound device. This is lossless. You want to: (D-A) do the DAC in the CD drive (A) toss that on an analog wire (A/A-D-A) apply an analog volume adjustment (if you're lucky; you might actually end up doing a ADC, digital volume adjustment, DAC) (A/A-D) toss that on a different wire that might be digital (A/D-A) hear it from your speakers You could: (D) read the CD digital data (D) toss said data to the sound device (losslessly!) (D/D-A) apply a digital volume adjustment (or maybe analog volume adjustment after DAC) (D/D-A) send that, maybe digitally, to your speakers (A/D-A) hear it from your speakers What exactly is better about the first scenario? At *best* you're moving the analog signal across a longer run of wire (and one that is inside your computer case with who-knows-what shielding picking up who-knows-what interference). At worst you've tossed several analog elements into a process that could have been digital from disc to speaker cones. Seriously... do I miss something? That reading in the data digitally uses non trivial amounts of PCI and CPU bandwidth. If I can't hear the difference between the two modes, then that CPU usage is a total waste of resources. I have other things I want my CPU to be doing. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 12:29:36AM -0500, Doug Ledford wrote: That reading in the data digitally uses non trivial amounts of PCI and CPU bandwidth. If I can't hear the difference between the two modes, then that CPU usage is a total waste of resources. I have other things I want my CPU to be doing. If 150K/sec is non-trivial PCI bandwidth, I think you should probably ask for a refund on your motherboard. From a power management point of view I'd like to agree that offloading this from the CPU is a good thing, but Lennart's right - most newly built machines don't hook these up, and adding a control that influences CD volume on a small number of machines and does nothing whatsoever on a larger number isn't a sensible UI optimisation. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:36:38AM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 16:53, Matthew Woehlke (mw_tr...@users.sourceforge.net) wrote: Doug Ledford wrote: Every system I build still keeps the analog signal cable between the CD/DVD and the soundcard. This doesn't help if I try to watch a movie as that signal has to be decoded and then played, but for audio CDs it is still a perfectly acceptable means of playing the music. So I'm not sure where this CD in is obsolete comes from. Even the motherboard I bought about 2 months ago still has a CD in port and the CD/DVD in that machine still has an analog output. CD is digital and can be read in digital format by your CPU and sent in digital to the sound device. This is lossless. Adding here: The analog path for CDDA is completely broken and obsolete: And adding here that CD in is just one of two analog in paths I use that I don't want to do digital data transfer on. You didn't address the other one. - It doesn't work with USB cd drives Depends on wether or not the drive has an analog out. Most don't, but I've seen them in the past that do. - Modern cards don't even have the connector anymore As mentioned in my previous mail, my most recent motherboard purchase does, and so did all my previous purchases. - There is no way to get acces to the PCM data before playing it, meaning no equalizers applied, no visualizations, no signal meters, no suurrround upmixing, no nothing. Well, duh. I don't *want* that junk. I want a zero intervention pass through that leaves my system unoccupied by mundane, trivial crap. Oh, and my sound card automatically plays 2 channel stereo line in as either 4.1 or 5.1 output, so I *really* don't want CPU based surround upmixing. - There is no way to figure out if it is actually connected, so exposing it would more often than not show something that doesn't work at all. I *know* it's connected, I connected it myself. - and the killer argument: we don't even ship a CD player app that could make use of the analog CDDA playback path. To my konwledge there is none in the default install, nor in the entire distro. And this has nothing to do with whether or not the mixer should be able to deal with analog in to analog out directly, which was my complaint. The CD portion of it was just one instance, the other being my use of line in for my iPhone. Assuming that because you don't have access to a CD player that does CDDA based playing today means that it simply doesn't work in the hardware is just silly. And assuming that because your CD in path doesn't work that no analog input path should be redirected in hardware to speakers is also just as silly. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:28:58AM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:06, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Oh does it? How about adding some references to this claim? Might be actually convincing then. At least I couldn't find anything googling for 'HDA hardware-mixing'. Nor could I find anything googling for 'HDA multi-analog'. When you buy an Intel CPU do you expect it to say Supports x86 instruction set? The ability for a soundcard to accept multiple analog inputs and output them all simultaneously to a single sink has been standard for so long that any card that *can't* do it (assuming it has multiple analog inputs) would be considered total garbage. You don't have to tout something that is a basic, standard capability. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 09:54:29PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) said: And also, please paste a dump of amixer -c0 for your HDA card so that we can see that it includes a CD control. Sorry, but... $ cat /proc/asound/cards 0 [Intel ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel HDA Intel at 0xee24 irq 17 $ amixer -c 0 ... Simple mixer control 'CD',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch cswitch cswitch-joined cswitch-exclusive Capture exclusive group: 0 Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Capture channels: Mono Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Capture [off] Front Left: Playback 23 [74%] [0.00dB] [on] Front Right: Playback 23 [74%] [0.00dB] [on] ... [dledf...@zd7000 ~]$ cat /proc/asound/cards 0 [ICH5 ]: ICH4 - Intel ICH5 Intel ICH5 with unknown codec at irq 17 1 [Modem ]: ICH-MODEM - Intel ICH5 Modem Intel ICH5 Modem at irq 17 [dledf...@zd7000 ~]$ amixer -c0 ... Simple mixer control 'Line',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch pswitch-joined cswitch cswitch-exclusive Capture exclusive group: 0 Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Front Left: Playback 0 [0%] [-34.50dB] [off] Capture [off] Front Right: Playback 0 [0%] [-34.50dB] [off] Capture [off] Simple mixer control 'CD',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch pswitch-joined cswitch cswitch-exclusive Capture exclusive group: 0 Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Front Left: Playback 23 [74%] [0.00dB] [on] Capture [off] Front Right: Playback 23 [74%] [0.00dB] [on] Capture [off] Simple mixer control 'Mic',0 Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined cswitch cswitch-exclusive Capture exclusive group: 0 Playback channels: Mono Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Playback 0 [0%] [-34.50dB] [off] Front Left: Capture [on] Front Right: Capture [on] Simple mixer control 'Mic Boost (+20dB)',0 Capabilities: pswitch pswitch-joined Playback channels: Mono Mono: Playback [off] Simple mixer control 'Video',0 Capabilities: cswitch cswitch-exclusive Capture exclusive group: 0 Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right Front Left: Capture [off] Front Right: Capture [off] ... [dledf...@zd7000 ~]$ cat /proc/asound/pcm 00-00: Intel ICH : Intel ICH5 : playback 1 : capture 1 00-01: Intel ICH - MIC ADC : Intel ICH5 - MIC ADC : capture 1 00-02: Intel ICH - MIC2 ADC : Intel ICH5 - MIC2 ADC : capture 1 00-03: Intel ICH - ADC2 : Intel ICH5 - ADC2 : capture 1 00-04: Intel ICH - IEC958 : Intel ICH5 - IEC958 : playback 1 01-00: Intel ICH - Modem : Intel ICH5 Modem - Modem : playback 1 : capture 1 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Jul 29, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Karel Zak wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Quite agreed [says a former kernel audio driver maintainer], and I will go even farther: It is completely stupid to waste host CPU on a task that can be offloaded in parallel to dedicated audio hardware. If the user intentionally purchased expensive audio hardware with nice hardware mixing, do not subvert the user's intentions by ignoring such nice hardware. Any developer who claims always use software mixing or always use hardware mixing is a young, inexperienced fool. There are valid situations for both choices. Agree 1000%. As another kernel engineer that's done sound hardware amongst other things, if you want to duplicate hardware mixing in my CPU I'm going to toss you out on your ear. The amount of CPU PA wastes already drives me nuts. My CPU is intended for important things, like kernel compiles, not to be wasted unnecessarily on down mixing or up mixing an audio stream. It gets worse when you have a primary log in as yourself, and a secondary login for separate mail processing, and you want paplay to play a sound on certain emails, because it has to route the sound through pa means that if it even plays at all it plays rough and choppy and uses an assload of CPU time. I can't tell you how many times emails got delayed 12+ hours because they were waiting on paplay to finish playing a simple beep when they didn't own the console. -- Doug Ledford dledf...@redhat.com GPG KeyID: CFBFF194 http://people.redhat.com/dledford InfiniBand Specific RPMS http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Jul 28, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 14:32, Ben Boeckel (maths...@gmail.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. Curious: would patches be accepted if someone else did it or is there just no support at all? Let me stress that we explicitly decided not to expose those controls. This has nothing to do with whether there are patches for that or not. So yeah, if you file a bug with a patch this will most likely be treated the same as a bug without a patch and closed WONTFIX. Will PA ever expose the Monitor capability of input ports? If not, I'll have to keep using gst-mixer or something equivalent forever. Just for clarification, here's my audio configuration: iPhone -7.1 - line in 5.1 speakers - KVM - front, center, rear, sub out Logitech USB headset - headset mic in, headset out The ports that are on the 7.1 KVM are shared with a Windows Vista computer. The 5.1 speakers are used for everything except VoIP output, which goes to the USB headset. The line in is only used for the iPhone. The USB headset mic is used for VoIP. Now, given this setup, here are the problems I've had: Separately controlling volume of line in, and also setting line in into monitor mode (which redirects analog input directly to speakers without involving any digital data transfers to host, a hard requirement for me as I refuse to waste DMA/CPU resources and doing a wasted A/D then D/A conversion just to listen to my iPhone's playlists, he says as he listens to We Made You - Eminem). Windows Vista does this just fine. In order to get this under F11 I have to use gst-mixer. And truly the same is viable for the CD in portion of a hardware mixer. Every system I build still keeps the analog signal cable between the CD/DVD and the soundcard. This doesn't help if I try to watch a movie as that signal has to be decoded and then played, but for audio CDs it is still a perfectly acceptable means of playing the music. So I'm not sure where this CD in is obsolete comes from. Even the motherboard I bought about 2 months ago still has a CD in port and the CD/DVD in that machine still has an analog output. Getting PA to accept (and keep) the proper default input/output source across reboots, especially if the USB headset was either plugged in or unplugged at boot which changes the alsa detection order of the devices (this appears to be more reliable in F11 now, but was really bad in F9, I skipped F10). Interestingly enough, at login now in F11, it plays a sound over the speakers, but also plays what sounds like undecoded noise over the USB headset. I haven't tried reverting my .procmailrc of my secondary mail account to use paplay on certain messages again. I have a workaround in place, but in the past, attempts to do so would delay mails for hours until I killed the hung paplay program. -- Doug Ledford dledf...@redhat.com GPG KeyID: CFBFF194 http://people.redhat.com/dledford InfiniBand Specific RPMS http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Doug Ledforddledf...@redhat.com wrote: Agree 1000%. As another kernel engineer that's done sound hardware amongst other things, if you want to duplicate hardware mixing in my CPU I'm going to toss you out on your ear. The amount of CPU PA wastes already drives me nuts. My CPU is intended for important things, like kernel compiles, not to be wasted unnecessarily on down mixing or up mixing an audio stream. So you personally own such hardware? It gets worse when you have a primary log in as yourself, and a secondary login for separate mail processing, and you want paplay to play a sound on certain emails, because it has to route the sound through pa means that if it even plays at all it plays rough and choppy Sound is hard; as I understand it this could be driver bugs, scheduling problems, etc. Lennart's done a lot of work on safely making the pulse process real-time, which you may or may not have yet. can't tell you how many times emails got delayed 12+ hours because they were waiting on paplay to finish playing a simple beep when they didn't own the console. Hmm...I'm confused about the setup here (why a secondary login for mail processing?) but that aside, probably paplay should have a --force option to avoid the delay. The reason pulse delays here is for things like music players where the target behavior is when you fast user switch, the music player app stops playing. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Dne Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:35:54 -0400 Dr. Diesel napsal(a):
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Lennart Poettering
On Wed, 29.07.09 06:48, Jeff Garzik wrote:
Any developer who claims always use software mixing or always
use hardware mixing is a young, inexperienced fool. There are
valid situations for both choices.
Hear hear, Mr. Garzik is the the old experienced wise man of audio,
who knows so much more about audio than any of the audio guys at
Microsoft or Apple.
Happy to take patches.
Lennart
Here is a patch, 2 weeks old.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461546
I took a look at the bug and also at the related upstream Trac ticket
http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/606
A few observations:
- The patch has nothing to do with {soft,hard}ware mixing. It's about
system-wide mode of PA.
- The patch may be 2 weeks old, but there was active discussion
about it just 2 days ago.
- It's funny how in the BZ the proponent of the patch first accused
Lennart of Dreppering the bug and then he himself needlessly
insulted Lubomir Rintel who had reviewed the patch.
- In the upstream ticket the patch proponent uses undiplomatic innuendo
in most comments and stubbornly demands his patch to be accepted
even though it is seen as a kludge by both Lennart and Colin and
Lennart gives a hint how it should be solved in a better way.
--
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Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Colin Walters wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Doug Ledforddledf...@redhat.com wrote: Agree 1000%. As another kernel engineer that's done sound hardware amongst other things, if you want to duplicate hardware mixing in my CPU I'm going to toss you out on your ear. The amount of CPU PA wastes already drives me nuts. My CPU is intended for important things, like kernel compiles, not to be wasted unnecessarily on down mixing or up mixing an audio stream. So you personally own such hardware? Not hardware up mix/down mixing, but hardware mixing. And as my other post points out, I make use of it and have no intent of ever not using it. Right now I simply use gst-mixer to enable the mixing behind PA's back. I consider the fact that PA can't/won't do it to be a serious design flaw. It gets worse when you have a primary log in as yourself, and a secondary login for separate mail processing, and you want paplay to play a sound on certain emails, because it has to route the sound through pa means that if it even plays at all it plays rough and choppy Sound is hard; as I understand it this could be driver bugs, scheduling problems, etc. Lennart's done a lot of work on safely making the pulse process real-time, which you may or may not have yet. It worked fine prior to PA. I can't say what specifically is causing it, other than the paplay command will often start to play, get a little out, then just never complete. I used to use this to alert me to specific emails that I needed to respond to immediately, instead I now redirect them to a different folder and have my mail client (which runs as the primary user) alert me instead. can't tell you how many times emails got delayed 12+ hours because they were waiting on paplay to finish playing a simple beep when they didn't own the console. Hmm...I'm confused about the setup here (why a secondary login for mail processing?) but that aside, probably paplay should have a --force option to avoid the delay. The reason pulse delays here is for things like music players where the target behavior is when you fast user switch, the music player app stops playing. Because I fetchmail all my different email accounts to a single box, and depending on mail client, some want different actual IMAP accounts in order to support multiple outgoing identities. My primary account has an IMAP login that maps to one email address and the secondary account maps to another. -- Doug Ledford dledf...@redhat.com GPG KeyID: CFBFF194 http://people.redhat.com/dledford InfiniBand Specific RPMS http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Hi, On Wednesday, 29 July 2009 at 16:19, Ralf Ertzinger wrote: On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:39:14 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: But whatever. Just please stop imposing pulseaudio on those who don't want to use it. For the record, I'm still considering leaving Fedora because - as a GNOME desktop - it's becoming unusable without pulseaudio. Making it a hard dependency for GNOME bluetooth stack in F11 went a bit too far in my opinion. I'm obviously missing something. Are you opposed to the general fact that PA packages use up your disk space, or just to the fact that PA tries to handle your audio? I don't want pulseaudio daemon to be started at all. The proper way to do it is to remove it from my disk. I do care about disk space, but I don't particularly mind if there are some libraries taking up space. Daemons that get started behind my back are a different and annoying issue. If the latter, I've removed alsa-plugins-pulseaudio and pointed my audip apps to alsa for sound output. As far as I can tell that removes PA from the picture. Not completely IIUC. Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu Faith manages. -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:Confessions and Lamentations -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wednesday, 29 July 2009 at 17:27, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 16:46 +0200, Michal Schmidt wrote: Dominik, if you don't want to use PA, remove only alsa-plugins-pulseaudio, then the default ALSA output won't be redirected to PA. You can leave pulseaudio package installed to satisfy the dependencies. That does mean a PA daemon will still be run by default and anything that, for instance, checks if PA is running and then outputs direct to PA, still will. I think this is what gstreamer's default 'auto detect' setting does. But you can re-configure that to go to ALSA directly. Removing pulseaudio daemon from disk would ensure that it cannot be started behind your back by one sound library or another. Hence my gripe about not being able to remove it without sacrificing functionality that is not dependent on it directly. Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu Faith manages. -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:Confessions and Lamentations -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, 2009-07-30 at 16:49 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: Removing pulseaudio daemon from disk would ensure that it cannot be started behind your back by one sound library or another. Hence my gripe about not being able to remove it without sacrificing functionality that is not dependent on it directly. We've already said we know the dependency is sub-optimal but cannot find a better way to do it, and welcome any improvements in the form of patches. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:41:34AM -0400, Doug Ledford wrote: Not hardware up mix/down mixing, but hardware mixing. And as my other post points out, I make use of it and have no intent of ever not using it. Right now I simply use gst-mixer to enable the mixing behind PA's back. I consider the fact that PA can't/won't do it to be a serious design flaw. The discussion in question was on whether or not PA would support using hardware functionality to mix multiple PCM streams. Your situation seems to be orthogonal to that. Conflating them isn't helpful. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Doug Ledford wrote: Every system I build still keeps the analog signal cable between the CD/DVD and the soundcard. This doesn't help if I try to watch a movie as that signal has to be decoded and then played, but for audio CDs it is still a perfectly acceptable means of playing the music. So I'm not sure where this CD in is obsolete comes from. Even the motherboard I bought about 2 months ago still has a CD in port and the CD/DVD in that machine still has an analog output. CD is digital and can be read in digital format by your CPU and sent in digital to the sound device. This is lossless. You want to: (D-A) do the DAC in the CD drive (A) toss that on an analog wire (A/A-D-A) apply an analog volume adjustment (if you're lucky; you might actually end up doing a ADC, digital volume adjustment, DAC) (A/A-D) toss that on a different wire that might be digital (A/D-A) hear it from your speakers You could: (D) read the CD digital data (D) toss said data to the sound device (losslessly!) (D/D-A) apply a digital volume adjustment (or maybe analog volume adjustment after DAC) (D/D-A) send that, maybe digitally, to your speakers (A/D-A) hear it from your speakers What exactly is better about the first scenario? At *best* you're moving the analog signal across a longer run of wire (and one that is inside your computer case with who-knows-what shielding picking up who-knows-what interference). At worst you've tossed several analog elements into a process that could have been digital from disc to speaker cones. Seriously... do I miss something? -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- Disadvantage: Bad Puns [-5] You constantly utter puns so egregious as to cause mental distress to anyone hearing them. This can, however, be used to distract enemies. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: Modern sound card designs don't do hw mixing anymore, it's like fm synthesis or wavetable audio. /me misses fm synth :-) (At least, I'm still looking for something that will turn a MIDI into a .wav/.ogg/etc that sounds like an SB16... DOS MIDI player in dosbox is the closest I've found so far, but it sucks for batch processing.) -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- Disadvantage: Bad Puns [-5] You constantly utter puns so egregious as to cause mental distress to anyone hearing them. This can, however, be used to distract enemies. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, 30.07.09 17:09, Matthew Woehlke (mw_tr...@users.sourceforge.net) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Modern sound card designs don't do hw mixing anymore, it's like fm synthesis or wavetable audio. /me misses fm synth :-) (At least, I'm still looking for something that will turn a MIDI into a .wav/.ogg/etc that sounds like an SB16... DOS MIDI player in dosbox is the closest I've found so far, but it sucks for batch processing.) Try timidity. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, 30.07.09 16:53, Matthew Woehlke (mw_tr...@users.sourceforge.net) wrote: Doug Ledford wrote: Every system I build still keeps the analog signal cable between the CD/DVD and the soundcard. This doesn't help if I try to watch a movie as that signal has to be decoded and then played, but for audio CDs it is still a perfectly acceptable means of playing the music. So I'm not sure where this CD in is obsolete comes from. Even the motherboard I bought about 2 months ago still has a CD in port and the CD/DVD in that machine still has an analog output. CD is digital and can be read in digital format by your CPU and sent in digital to the sound device. This is lossless. Adding here: The analog path for CDDA is completely broken and obsolete: - It doesn't work with USB cd drives - It doesn't work with USB sound cards - It doesn't work with Bluetooth headsets - It doesn't work with SPDIF out - It doesn't work if you have more than one cd drive - It doesn't work if you have more than one audio device - Modern cards don't even have the connector anymore - There is no way to get acces to the PCM data before playing it, meaning no equalizers applied, no visualizations, no signal meters, no suurrround upmixing, no nothing. - There is no way to figure out if it is actually connected, so exposing it would more often than not show something that doesn't work at all. - and the killer argument: we don't even ship a CD player app that could make use of the analog CDDA playback path. To my konwledge there is none in the default install, nor in the entire distro. Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. Every time someone brings the analog cd playback path he's just making a complete fool out of himself because it is so very obvious that the issue is made up and even he himself hasn't used that feature for years. Because otherwise he'd know how broken it is. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Modern hardware isn't all PCM either... Jeff -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:06, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Oh does it? How about adding some references to this claim? Might be actually convincing then. http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/hdaudio.htm Jeff -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, 30.07.09 19:37, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:06, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Oh does it? How about adding some references to this claim? Might be actually convincing then. http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/hdaudio.htm Where do you see hardware mixing mentioned there? Or multi-analog? I certainly cannot see that mentioned directly or indirectly in any way on that page. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 17:09, Matthew Woehlke (elided) wrote: Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. Lennart Poettering wrote: Modern sound card designs don't do hw mixing anymore, it's like fm synthesis or wavetable audio. /me misses fm synth :-) (At least, I'm still looking for something that will turn a MIDI into a .wav/.ogg/etc that sounds like an SB16... DOS MIDI player in dosbox is the closest I've found so far, but it sucks for batch processing.) Try timidity. You have a soundfont that sounds like an OPL3? If so, I would be much appreciative if you could hook me up. (But I'm guessing you failed to read the part about sounds like an SB16... i.e. an OPL3 fm synth chip, not the AWE-generation wavetable stuff. I *do* still have my Creative AWE .sf2's, thank you.) -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- Disadvantage: Bad Puns [-5] You constantly utter puns so egregious as to cause mental distress to anyone hearing them. This can, however, be used to distract enemies. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:06, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Oh does it? How about adding some references to this claim? Might be actually convincing then. At least I couldn't find anything googling for 'HDA hardware- mixing'. Nor could I find anything googling for 'HDA multi-analog'. Please check your dictionary and look up to tout. There you'll find that it means to solicit, peddle, or persuade importunately. It's not particularly importunate if google can show no trace of it, is it? And also, please paste a dump of amixer -c0 for your HDA card so that we can see that it includes a CD control. And the contents of /proc/asound/pcm would be cool, too, so that we can see your HDA card does hw mixing. If you cannot produce anything of that I'd recommend a good ol' cup of STFU. Lennart I see a CD control here. Not sure if anything indicates hw- mixing or multi-analog, but here's stuff from a recent (ASUS P5Q-VM) motherboard release late 2008[1]: % amixer -c0 Simple mixer control 'Master',0 Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined Playback channels: Mono Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Playback 31 [100%] [0.00dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'Headphone',0 Capabilities: pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Mono: Front Left: Playback [on] Front Right: Playback [on] Simple mixer control 'PCM',0 Capabilities: pvolume Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 255 Mono: Front Left: Playback 255 [100%] [0.00dB] Front Right: Playback 255 [100%] [0.00dB] Simple mixer control 'Front',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Front Left: Playback 17 [55%] [-21.00dB] [on] Front Right: Playback 17 [55%] [-21.00dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'Front Mic',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Front Left: Playback 0 [0%] [-34.50dB] [off] Front Right: Playback 0 [0%] [-34.50dB] [off] Simple mixer control 'Front Mic Boost',0 Capabilities: volume Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Capture channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: 0 - 3 Front Left: 0 [0%] Front Right: 0 [0%] Simple mixer control 'Surround',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Front Left: Playback 0 [0%] [-46.50dB] [on] Front Right: Playback 0 [0%] [-46.50dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'Center',0 Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined Playback channels: Mono Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Playback 0 [0%] [-46.50dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'LFE',0 Capabilities: pvolume pvolume-joined pswitch pswitch-joined Playback channels: Mono Limits: Playback 0 - 31 Mono: Playback 0 [0%] [-46.50dB] [on] Simple mixer control 'Side',0 Capabilities: pvolume pswitch Playback channels: Front Left - Front Right Limits: Playback 0 - 31
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 16:53, Matthew Woehlke (elided) wrote: Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. The analog path for CDDA is completely broken and obsolete: - It doesn't work if you have more than one cd drive Sure it does (assuming you have something to plug the second drive into). I've used two drives with one card; second drive was on AUX. - It doesn't work if you have more than one audio device Not really true, you just can only play via one device. Of course, the other points are all valid. (Well, didn't know about not working with SPDIF, I would have assumed there would be an ADC in that case...) -- Matthew Disadvantage: Bad Puns [-5] You constantly utter puns so egregious as to cause mental distress to anyone hearing them. This can, however, be used to distract enemies. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:37, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:06, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Oh does it? How about adding some references to this claim? Might be actually convincing then. http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/hdaudio.htm Where do you see hardware mixing mentioned there? Or multi-analog? I certainly cannot see that mentioned directly or indirectly in any way on that page. Try the programmer's guide, for one. If you are going to whine about googling, don't expect to be spoonfed knowledge you should already know. Jeff -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Thu, 30.07.09 20:07, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:37, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 19:06, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Doing digital grabbing of is very reliable these days. The analog path is just completely obsolete. I guess it's an open question why HDA touts multi-analog and hw mixing as modern features, then :) Oh does it? How about adding some references to this claim? Might be actually convincing then. http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/hdaudio.htm Where do you see hardware mixing mentioned there? Or multi-analog? I certainly cannot see that mentioned directly or indirectly in any way on that page. Try the programmer's guide, for one. If you are going to whine about googling, don't expect to be spoonfed knowledge you should already know. Sorry, still don't see anything regarding touted hw mixing. Page number please! Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Matthew Woehlke mw_tr...@users.sourceforge.net writes: Lennart Poettering wrote: On Thu, 30.07.09 17:09, Matthew Woehlke (elided) wrote: Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. Why on earth not? Your email address is in plain sight in the headers. - FChE -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering said the following on 07/30/2009 04:28 PM Pacific Time: If you cannot produce anything of that I'd recommend a good ol' cup of STFU. Lennart How much longer are we going to wait to implement http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Hall_Monitor_Policy ? This is getting really childish and unprofessional. John -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 23:55 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: When you mean 'not wrap them', do you mean they're no longer selectable as a record source, if the hardware exports them? Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. If you want to control them you can always install alsamixer or gst-mixer or whatever. But really, this controls are obsolete. so really lennart means 'no' :) they're not selectable via PA's mixer interface. they will still be selectable via ALSA's mixer interface, and hence via any alsamixer (alsamixer, kmix, xfce's mixer, gst-mixer as long as it's around, etc). (sorry for the self-reply) - and of course, this isn't a regression in PA, as PA's mixer interface has never exposed these choices. so nothing's got more restricted than it was before. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) said: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. When you mean 'not wrap them', do you mean they're no longer selectable as a record source, if the hardware exports them? Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Karel -- Karel Zak k...@redhat.com -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 15:59 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: In the F11 cycle there has been some criticism on how g-v-c was presenting a new minimal volume control interface. Most issues raised back then should now be fixed, except for a few which we consider strictly out of focus for us. I'd like to ask everyone to test this new volume logic. If you don't raise your voice now that some output port is not properly detected or audio is too faint then later on you won't have any right to complain. You should particularly pay attention to the new Hardware tab in g-v-c, where you can now choose the hardware profile (i.e. stereo vs. 5.1, and so on) which you want to use. And then on the Input/Output tab you may or may not find an additional dropdown menu for selecting the port you want to use (only shown if you have more than one). gst-mixer is not longer listed as default in comps now. as the other interested party, this is perfectly fine by me as long as we get any bugs out of the new code, which I'm sure we'll manage. I may even drop the package entirely, since we do have other alternatives. thanks a lot for the work on the new stuff. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Let me take the chance to thank you, Lennart. Even though PulseAudio has always been a controversial topic and there are many negative feelings about it I still think I am not the only one who really enjoys the new audio and volume control features Fedoa offers. It has really made my life easier and is a big step forward towards a user-friendly desktop environment. I think many people who don't actually know how to use a mailing list and just use PulseAudio et al. think the same. Lennart, I think you are moving things in the right direction and I would like to thank you for all the hard work you have put into PulseAudio. I think you have the kind of thick skin that is required to make fundamental changes in this environment ;-) Felix -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.htm l PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. First, I like pulseaudio, especially the ability of moving streams from one sink to another is awesome for laptops with external sound card :o) But imo hw mixer (or other hw parts) are not that bad... we still have hw accelerated graphic, math,... why not sound? Also this remains me that pulseaudio eats 24 % of my (1.6GHz) cpu when mapping stereo stream to 5.1 which (I suppose) some hw mixer could do while letting cpu free for other tasks. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Michal Hlavinka mhlav...@redhat.comwrote: This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.htm l PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. First, I like pulseaudio, especially the ability of moving streams from one sink to another is awesome for laptops with external sound card :o) But imo hw mixer (or other hw parts) are not that bad... we still have hw accelerated graphic, math,... why not sound? Also this remains me that pulseaudio eats 24 % of my (1.6GHz) cpu when mapping stereo stream to 5.1 which (I suppose) some hw mixer could do while letting cpu free for other tasks. Absolutely... IMO Pulseaudio needs some serious justification for its direction. -- projecthuh.com All of my bits are free, are yours? Fedoraproject.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 29.07.09 12:33, Michal Hlavinka (mhlav...@redhat.com) wrote: This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.htm l PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. First, I like pulseaudio, especially the ability of moving streams from one sink to another is awesome for laptops with external sound card :o) But imo hw mixer (or other hw parts) are not that bad... we still have hw accelerated graphic, math,... why not sound? Also this remains me that pulseaudio eats 24 % of my (1.6GHz) cpu when mapping stereo stream to 5.1 which (I suppose) some hw mixer could do while letting cpu free for other tasks. If PA eats a lot of CPU this can have many reasons, most of them have to do with the latency settings requested by the applications or that have been configured due to frequent underruns. However the actual mixing is certainly the smallest part of it. Plese don't forget that mixing is not exactly the most complex operation on earth. But then again, I am happy to take patches. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 29.07.09 09:46, Karel Zak (k...@redhat.com) wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) said: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. When you mean 'not wrap them', do you mean they're no longer selectable as a record source, if the hardware exports them? Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It's my opinion. Which is based on not being blind to what's happening around me. It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Modern sound card designs don't do hw mixing anymore, it's like fm synthesis or wavetable audio. It's simply not done in hw anymore. The only exceptions are cards for gamers, i.e. Creative cards. And uh, quite frankly those cards probably only have it because they need at least something that distuingishes them from normal HDA cards. In my little array of sound cards I have here not a single one still does hw mixing. So even if I wanted to add hw mixing support to PA I couldn't because I have nothing to test with. Also given that these days you find that feature only in Creative cards and Creative is mostly anti-Free-Software I really see no point in spending a minute on adding support for this to PA even if it would make technical sense, which it doesn't. Also, let's not forget smething: DirectSound in Vista does not support hw acceleration for audio at all anymore: http://connect.creativelabs.com/openal/OpenAL%20Wiki/OpenAL%C2%AE%20and%20Windows%20Vista%E2%84%A2.aspx And CoreAudio never did either. Creative is now pushing OpenAL since they apparently believe that hw mixing just for hw mixing's sake is something that makes sense to gamers -- even though it makes no sense at all to me. But than again, if hw mixing is that important to you, I am happy to merge patches if they are clean. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 29.07.09 06:48, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Karel Zak wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Quite agreed [says a former kernel audio driver maintainer], and I will go even farther: Maybe since the times you worked on audio drivers the design of the sound cards changed a little and stuff like SSE became largely available? It is completely stupid to waste host CPU on a task that can be offloaded in parallel to dedicated audio hardware. If the user intentionally purchased expensive audio hardware with nice hardware mixing, do not subvert the user's intentions by ignoring such nice hardware. Any developer who claims always use software mixing or always use hardware mixing is a young, inexperienced fool. There are valid situations for both choices. Hear hear, Mr. Garzik is the the old experienced wise man of audio, who knows so much more about audio than any of the audio guys at Microsoft or Apple. Happy to take patches. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wednesday 29 July 2009 15:16:20 Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 12:33, Michal Hlavinka (mhlav...@redhat.com) wrote: This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519 .htm l PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. First, I like pulseaudio, especially the ability of moving streams from one sink to another is awesome for laptops with external sound card :o) But imo hw mixer (or other hw parts) are not that bad... we still have hw accelerated graphic, math,... why not sound? Also this remains me that pulseaudio eats 24 % of my (1.6GHz) cpu when mapping stereo stream to 5.1 which (I suppose) some hw mixer could do while letting cpu free for other tasks. If PA eats a lot of CPU this can have many reasons, most of them have to do with the latency settings requested by the applications or that have been configured due to frequent underruns. However the actual mixing is certainly the smallest part of it. Plese don't forget that mixing is not exactly the most complex operation on earth. Well... I'm pretty sure I have no idea how it works :D I've just noticed that when playing stereo and sound card (Aureon MK II) is configured for stereo, it eats about 4 % and (when speakers are set as 5.1) only front speakers work (as expected), when I configure that card for 5.1 output and play stereo stream it goes to all 5.1 speakers and eats about 24 % of cpu -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wednesday, 29 July 2009 at 15:24, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 06:48, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Karel Zak wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Quite agreed [says a former kernel audio driver maintainer], and I will go even farther: Maybe since the times you worked on audio drivers the design of the sound cards changed a little and stuff like SSE became largely available? It is completely stupid to waste host CPU on a task that can be offloaded in parallel to dedicated audio hardware. If the user intentionally purchased expensive audio hardware with nice hardware mixing, do not subvert the user's intentions by ignoring such nice hardware. Any developer who claims always use software mixing or always use hardware mixing is a young, inexperienced fool. There are valid situations for both choices. Hear hear, Mr. Garzik is the the old experienced wise man of audio, who knows so much more about audio than any of the audio guys at Microsoft or Apple. It's quite hypocritical of you to use an anti-open-source company (Creative) as an argument for not supporting hw mixing on one side and then touting other anti-open-source companies as examples to follow on the other. But whatever. Just please stop imposing pulseaudio on those who don't want to use it. For the record, I'm still considering leaving Fedora because - as a GNOME desktop - it's becoming unusable without pulseaudio. Making it a hard dependency for GNOME bluetooth stack in F11 went a bit too far in my opinion. Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu Faith manages. -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:Confessions and Lamentations -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 8:39 AM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski domi...@greysector.net wrote: On Wednesday, 29 July 2009 at 15:24, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 06:48, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Karel Zak wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Quite agreed [says a former kernel audio driver maintainer], and I will go even farther: Maybe since the times you worked on audio drivers the design of the sound cards changed a little and stuff like SSE became largely available? It is completely stupid to waste host CPU on a task that can be offloaded in parallel to dedicated audio hardware. If the user intentionally purchased expensive audio hardware with nice hardware mixing, do not subvert the user's intentions by ignoring such nice hardware. Any developer who claims always use software mixing or always use hardware mixing is a young, inexperienced fool. There are valid situations for both choices. Hear hear, Mr. Garzik is the the old experienced wise man of audio, who knows so much more about audio than any of the audio guys at Microsoft or Apple. It's quite hypocritical of you to use an anti-open-source company (Creative) as an argument for not supporting hw mixing on one side and then touting other anti-open-source companies as examples to follow on the other. But whatever. Just please stop imposing pulseaudio on those who don't want to use it. For the record, I'm still considering leaving Fedora because - as a GNOME desktop - it's becoming unusable without pulseaudio. Making it a hard dependency for GNOME bluetooth stack in F11 went a bit too far in my opinion. Regards, R. This is supported by the zillions of forum messages asking how to fix or remove pulseaudio. Not to mention the billion post thread here on devel. -- projecthuh.com All of my bits are free, are yours? Fedoraproject.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wednesday, 29 July 2009 at 15:47, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 15:39 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: snip It's quite hypocritical of you to use an anti-open-source company (Creative) as an argument for not supporting hw mixing on one side and then touting other anti-open-source companies as examples to follow on the other. Since when does using technology as an example mean that you condone the way companies do business? Ask Lennart. I only took his argument to its logical conclusion. Maybe we should start removing other parts of Fedora because they were inspired by, or share similar technical features to things Microsoft or Apple did before us. Ah, so dropping support for hw mixing is a great innovation. I hope you see how flawed your argument is. It was more of a ridicule than anything else. But whatever. Just please stop imposing pulseaudio on those who don't want to use it. For the record, I'm still considering leaving Fedora because - as a GNOME desktop - it's becoming unusable without pulseaudio. Making it a hard dependency for GNOME bluetooth stack in F11 went a bit too far in my opinion. I did that, and the reasons for it were discussed on this list. Nobody has made any headway into explaining how to fix the problem[1] without the hard dependency. [1]: That'd be out-of-the-box Bluetooth headset and speakers support While having support for stuff like that is great, I still would like to be able to remove pulseaudio (even it it means losing support for bluetooth headsets and speakers) without losing the rest of gnome-bluetooth. What was the problem with that? Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu Faith manages. -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:Confessions and Lamentations -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Dne Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:21:00 +0200 Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski napsal: But whatever. Just please stop imposing pulseaudio on those who don't want to use it. For the record, I'm still considering leaving Fedora because - as a GNOME desktop - it's becoming unusable without pulseaudio. Making it a hard dependency for GNOME bluetooth stack in F11 went a bit too far in my opinion. I did that, and the reasons for it were discussed on this list. Nobody has made any headway into explaining how to fix the problem[1] without the hard dependency. [1]: That'd be out-of-the-box Bluetooth headset and speakers support While having support for stuff like that is great, I still would like to be able to remove pulseaudio (even it it means losing support for bluetooth headsets and speakers) without losing the rest of gnome-bluetooth. Dominik, if you don't want to use PA, remove only alsa-plugins-pulseaudio, then the default ALSA output won't be redirected to PA. You can leave pulseaudio package installed to satisfy the dependencies. Michal -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Hi. On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:39:14 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: But whatever. Just please stop imposing pulseaudio on those who don't want to use it. For the record, I'm still considering leaving Fedora because - as a GNOME desktop - it's becoming unusable without pulseaudio. Making it a hard dependency for GNOME bluetooth stack in F11 went a bit too far in my opinion. I'm obviously missing something. Are you opposed to the general fact that PA packages use up your disk space, or just to the fact that PA tries to handle your audio? If the latter, I've removed alsa-plugins-pulseaudio and pointed my audip apps to alsa for sound output. As far as I can tell that removes PA from the picture. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 09:47, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: mixing is certainly the smallest part of it. Plese don't forget that mixing is not exactly the most complex operation on earth. Please don't forget that hardware mixing... is more than just mixing. Modern audio hardware can offload sample rate conversion, attenuation, 3D processing, and other goodies. Interesting in which parallel universe you must be living. Modern audio hardware is usually locked to a specific sample rate, got rid of all mixer controls by going to 24bit and letting the CPU attenuate using the 8bit extra headroom. And 3d processing, and other goodies aren't avilable in newer hw designs anymore either. In fact haven't been available since quite some time in any design anymore. (With the excption of those creative cards) bzzt, sorry, thanks for playing. The world has more to offer than 2005-era motherboard audio locked at 48K. If you keeping bringing up Microsoft as a shining example, it might behoove you examine how DirectSound has evolved for modern audio. Jeff -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 15:13 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: Modern sound card designs don't do hw mixing anymore, it's like fm synthesis or wavetable audio. It's simply not done in hw anymore. The only exceptions are cards for gamers, i.e. Creative cards. And uh, quite frankly those cards probably only have it because they need at least something that distuingishes them from normal HDA cards. Just out of curiosity - do modern pro cards (M-Audio etc) do hw mixing? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 15:26 +0200, Michal Hlavinka wrote: If PA eats a lot of CPU this can have many reasons, most of them have to do with the latency settings requested by the applications or that have been configured due to frequent underruns. However the actual mixing is certainly the smallest part of it. Plese don't forget that mixing is not exactly the most complex operation on earth. Well... I'm pretty sure I have no idea how it works :D I've just noticed that when playing stereo and sound card (Aureon MK II) is configured for stereo, it eats about 4 % and (when speakers are set as 5.1) only front speakers work (as expected), when I configure that card for 5.1 output and play stereo stream it goes to all 5.1 speakers and eats about 24 % of cpu That's not mixing, it's multiplexing. I don't think any card has ever had hardware acceleration for that operation (though hey, I'm probably wrong ;). Mixing is what happens when you play sound from two or more applications at once. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 16:46 +0200, Michal Schmidt wrote: Dominik, if you don't want to use PA, remove only alsa-plugins-pulseaudio, then the default ALSA output won't be redirected to PA. You can leave pulseaudio package installed to satisfy the dependencies. That does mean a PA daemon will still be run by default and anything that, for instance, checks if PA is running and then outputs direct to PA, still will. I think this is what gstreamer's default 'auto detect' setting does. But you can re-configure that to go to ALSA directly. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 15:56 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 09:47, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: mixing is certainly the smallest part of it. Plese don't forget that mixing is not exactly the most complex operation on earth. Please don't forget that hardware mixing... is more than just mixing. Modern audio hardware can offload sample rate conversion, attenuation, 3D processing, and other goodies. Interesting in which parallel universe you must be living. Modern audio hardware is usually locked to a specific sample rate, got rid of all mixer controls by going to 24bit and letting the CPU attenuate using the 8bit extra headroom. And 3d processing, and other goodies aren't avilable in newer hw designs anymore either. In fact haven't been available since quite some time in any design anymore. (With the excption of those creative cards) Just get over it, the new designs are really dumbed down but high-quality 24bit dacs. That's all. It may be easier to resolve this if both of you would say exactly what hardware you're talking about... for the sake of argument, my local PC store sells a range of cheap cards that are just what Lennart says. For expensive consumer cards it has several Asus cards (appear to be based on CMI chips), some AuzenTechs (also CMI), and some HT Omegas (CMI again, I think I'm seeing a pattern here :). The Asus cards claim specifically that they support DirectSound in hardware. Aside from that, all the expensive cards make loud claims about Dolby and/or DTS systems for multiplexing and headphone processing, but don't make clear whether they're done in hardware or software. I didn't see anything about hardware SRC, though they probably wouldn't advertise that, it's hard to tell until you own one. My card, a Chaintech AV-710, does do SRC in hardware (you can set it to any output sampling rate you like, via the mixer), but you can't buy it any more, it was discontinued. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Lennart Poettering wrote: I'd like to ask everyone to test this new volume logic. If you don't raise your voice now that some output port is not properly detected or audio is too faint then later on you won't have any right to complain. Is there a way to test this if one does not have the luxury of re-installing one's desktop to F12 (from F11)? ObPA: I wish client volume state was kept PA side - not enjoying the frequent resets of volume in clients in F11. Bring back system-side state for volume please.. regards, -- Paul Jakma p...@jakma.org Key ID: 64A2FF6A Fortune: Your mode of life will be changed to ASCII. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.comwrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 15:56 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 09:47, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: mixing is certainly the smallest part of it. Plese don't forget that mixing is not exactly the most complex operation on earth. Please don't forget that hardware mixing... is more than just mixing. Modern audio hardware can offload sample rate conversion, attenuation, 3D processing, and other goodies. Interesting in which parallel universe you must be living. Modern audio hardware is usually locked to a specific sample rate, got rid of all mixer controls by going to 24bit and letting the CPU attenuate using the 8bit extra headroom. And 3d processing, and other goodies aren't avilable in newer hw designs anymore either. In fact haven't been available since quite some time in any design anymore. (With the excption of those creative cards) Just get over it, the new designs are really dumbed down but high-quality 24bit dacs. That's all. It may be easier to resolve this if both of you would say exactly what hardware you're talking about... for the sake of argument, my local PC store sells a range of cheap cards that are just what Lennart says. For expensive consumer cards it has several Asus cards (appear to be based on CMI chips), some AuzenTechs (also CMI), and some HT Omegas (CMI again, I think I'm seeing a pattern here :). The Asus cards claim specifically that they support DirectSound in hardware. Aside from that, all the expensive cards make loud claims about Dolby and/or DTS systems for multiplexing and headphone processing, but don't make clear whether they're done in hardware or software. I didn't see anything about hardware SRC, though they probably wouldn't advertise that, it's hard to tell until you own one. My card, a Chaintech AV-710, does do SRC in hardware (you can set it to any output sampling rate you like, via the mixer), but you can't buy it any more, it was discontinued. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list If these controls and hardware accelerated audio isn't going to work anymore, then why does Fedora still include the older OpenAL sample implementation instead of the new OpenAL Soft implementation that comes with a PulseAudio backend? -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 08:51 -0500, Dr. Diesel wrote: This is supported by the zillions of forum messages asking how to fix or remove pulseaudio. Not to mention the billion post thread here on devel. In my experience, this is a more common pattern: $POOR_NEWBIE: I have a problem with audio. $RANDOM_'HELPFUL'_PERSON: Oh, you need to remove PulseAudio! Removing PA is far too often jumped on as the 'obvious' fix for resolving any kind of audio problem whatsoever. Even if it had nothing to do with PA in the first place. In any case, there's a fairly easy, working way to disable PA that has been posted to this thread, that works in all Fedora releases. So there's no problem. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 08:51 -0500, Dr. Diesel wrote: This is supported by the zillions of forum messages asking how to fix or remove pulseaudio. Not to mention the billion post thread here on devel. In my experience, this is a more common pattern: $POOR_NEWBIE: I have a problem with audio. $RANDOM_'HELPFUL'_PERSON: Oh, you need to remove PulseAudio! Removing PA is far too often jumped on as the 'obvious' fix for resolving any kind of audio problem whatsoever. Even if it had nothing to do with PA in the first place. And? Random helpful person quickly becomes ignored person, if the advice fails to work. Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. Jeff -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:42 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 08:51 -0500, Dr. Diesel wrote: This is supported by the zillions of forum messages asking how to fix or remove pulseaudio. Not to mention the billion post thread here on devel. In my experience, this is a more common pattern: $POOR_NEWBIE: I have a problem with audio. $RANDOM_'HELPFUL'_PERSON: Oh, you need to remove PulseAudio! Removing PA is far too often jumped on as the 'obvious' fix for resolving any kind of audio problem whatsoever. Even if it had nothing to do with PA in the first place. And? Random helpful person quickly becomes ignored person, if the advice fails to work. Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. Rather, it works around it. The problems in the kernel drivers are usually still there... -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.comwrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:42 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: Removing PA is far too often jumped on as the 'obvious' fix for resolving any kind of audio problem whatsoever. Even if it had nothing to do with PA in the first place. And? Random helpful person quickly becomes ignored person, if the advice fails to work. Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. There's two problems. One, it's often not the _right_ fix - there are cases where PA's interaction with ALSA reveals bugs in ALSA that otherwise stay hidden. So disabling PA 'fixes the bug', but in reality is just sweeping it under the carpet. Two, even when the bug is in PA, if everyone just goes around disabling PA, how are they going to get fixed? Telepathy? How long do we expect people to tolerate these bugs before they move on? -- projecthuh.com All of my bits are free, are yours? Fedoraproject.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:25 -0500, Dr. Diesel wrote: How long do we expect people to tolerate these bugs before they move on? I don't. However, for those doing support, there's better approaches than 'disable PA and carry on using the system'. There's some configuration tweaks you can make to PA. You can check the kernel and PA logs for clues as to what the problem may be. You can get the alsa-info.sh output and check for known issues with the hardware in question (search on subv / subd for HDA hardware). Finally, if disabling PA 'solves' the problem, you can file a bug on PA explaining the issue and the symptoms, and including the kernel and PA logs. (To get PA log output, kill the system pulseaudio instance, and run it from a console as 'pulseaudio -v', then reproduce the problem). The key point is to try and get some useful information about the problem and file a bug, so that Lennart and the kernel sound guys _know_ about it. If no bugs are filed, it's very unlikely the problem is going to be fixed. I should probably write up a Debugging page for sound / PulseAudio, actually... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, 29.07.09 20:20, Nicolas Mailhot (nicolas.mail...@laposte.net) wrote: Le mercredi 29 juillet 2009 à 17:49 +0100, Bastien Nocera a écrit : On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:42 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. Rather, it works around it. The problems in the kernel drivers are usually still there... Before PA a sound problem didn't freeze the GUI (effectively bricking the system for normal users). Now it can. In my case, a few months ago, it was doing so because a new PA version could not parse a manual config change advertised in Fedora's own Glitch-free audio feature page a release before. Lennart stated that all this (PA being able to pull the GUI down, PA not being able to parse what was a correct config file a version before, PA rpm performing an unsafe upgrade) was NOTABUG. Twisting my words Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.dewrote: On Wed, 29.07.09 06:48, Jeff Garzik (jgar...@pobox.com) wrote: Karel Zak wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 10:07:32PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. This reminds me your note: https://tango.0pointer.de/pipermail/pulseaudio-discuss/2009-July/004519.html PA does not make use of hardware mixing. And I don't plan to change that. It's obsolete technology. CPUs these days come with extensions such as MMX or SSE precisely for speeding up DSP tasks such as PCM mixing. This is way more flexible that hw mixing, and definitely the way to the future, both on the desktop and on embedded envs as well. The obsolete technology -- who made this decision? Is it your private opinion or any suggestion from sound card manufacturers? It seems that HW companies still produce the obsolete technology. Quite agreed [says a former kernel audio driver maintainer], and I will go even farther: Maybe since the times you worked on audio drivers the design of the sound cards changed a little and stuff like SSE became largely available? It is completely stupid to waste host CPU on a task that can be offloaded in parallel to dedicated audio hardware. If the user intentionally purchased expensive audio hardware with nice hardware mixing, do not subvert the user's intentions by ignoring such nice hardware. Any developer who claims always use software mixing or always use hardware mixing is a young, inexperienced fool. There are valid situations for both choices. Hear hear, Mr. Garzik is the the old experienced wise man of audio, who knows so much more about audio than any of the audio guys at Microsoft or Apple. Happy to take patches. Lennart Here is a patch, 2 weeks old. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461546 -- projecthuh.com All of my bits are free, are yours? Fedoraproject.org -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 12:53 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Wed, 2009-07-29 at 12:42 -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: Removing PA is far too often jumped on as the 'obvious' fix for resolving any kind of audio problem whatsoever. Even if it had nothing to do with PA in the first place. And? Random helpful person quickly becomes ignored person, if the advice fails to work. Problem is... removing or disabling PA often -does- solve a problem. There's two problems. One, it's often not the _right_ fix - there are cases where PA's interaction with ALSA reveals bugs in ALSA that otherwise stay hidden. So disabling PA 'fixes the bug', but in reality is just sweeping it under the carpet. Two, even when the bug is in PA, if everyone just goes around disabling PA, how are they going to get fixed? Telepathy? Well, the fix is easy. Do I need repeat it once more? It's been a while :) Orcan -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 15:59:58 +0200, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote: When you test this, please make sure to run version 0.9.16-4.test3 of PA and 2.27.5 of gnome-media at least. Both are still stuck in Koji, aren't in Rawhide yet. mirrors2.kernel.org already has the 20090728 rawhide repo with those packages included. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 15:59 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: When you test this, please make sure to run version 0.9.16-4.test3 of PA and 2.27.5 of gnome-media at least. Both are still stuck in Koji, aren't in Rawhide yet. Any plan to push this in F11 at some point ? (even if it stays in testing ?) Thanks, Pierre -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Poettering wrote: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. Curious: would patches be accepted if someone else did it or is there just no support at all? - --Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpvRE8ACgkQiPi+MRHG3qSPsgCffnOp1HQKybognuYBL0svUJ7l cUYAoJ91fkfJ9TzAR17WYkBuK3z4UI6D =htuX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Ben Boeckelmaths...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lennart Poettering wrote: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. Curious: would patches be accepted if someone else did it or is there just no support at all? as this would violate the design choices made I doubt such patches would be accepted. -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 28.07.09 16:06, Pierre-Yves (pin...@pingoured.fr) wrote: On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 15:59 +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: When you test this, please make sure to run version 0.9.16-4.test3 of PA and 2.27.5 of gnome-media at least. Both are still stuck in Koji, aren't in Rawhide yet. Any plan to push this in F11 at some point ? (even if it stays in testing ?) No. This change is very invasive. (Also, I always considered a pretty bad idea to updated already released distros for anything but security fixes and bugfixes.) Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 28.07.09 14:32, Ben Boeckel (maths...@gmail.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering wrote: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. Curious: would patches be accepted if someone else did it or is there just no support at all? Let me stress that we explicitly decided not to expose those controls. This has nothing to do with whether there are patches for that or not. So yeah, if you file a bug with a patch this will most likely be treated the same as a bug without a patch and closed WONTFIX. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New Mixer Handling in PA 0.9.16/F12
On Tue, 28.07.09 15:48, Bill Nottingham (nott...@redhat.com) wrote: Lennart Poettering (mzerq...@0pointer.de) said: Please note that it is our intention not to wrap obsolete mixer controls such as CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on. If you file a bug asking for those to be wrapped we will disappoint you and close the bug WONTFIX. When you mean 'not wrap them', do you mean they're no longer selectable as a record source, if the hardware exports them? Yes. You cannot select them as record source, you cannot mute or unmute them, you cannot change their volume. CD, PC Speaker, MIDI and so on are just obsolete. If you want to control them you can always install alsamixer or gst-mixer or whatever. But really, this controls are obsolete. Lennart -- Lennart PoetteringRed Hat, Inc. lennart [at] poettering [dot] net http://0pointer.net/lennart/ GnuPG 0x1A015CC4 -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
