Re: FELV+ kitty
Hey Jenny, Yes, you told me he went back, but I didn't know Brenda had contacted you. She is great! Let me see what I can do. If we can get anywhere close to a transport I might could just bring him here till we get it arranged. tonyaJENNIFER RYAN CADIEU [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tonya,Really, you know her? She's fantastic!!! She contacted me, I think b/c you posted him on the FELV+ list ?!?! Not positive how she got my info though, but if it was through you then I owe you a huge THANK YOU!!! Anyways, we are kind of having some issues with getting the boy to her b/c #1 she's in Wisconsin and so we are trying to find transport and #2 we are tryign to get him out of the state ASAP before the owner has a chance to come looking for him. Not sure how much of this you know about..but the cat was reclaimed the first time we had him and it took the owner 2 weeks to come lookign for him..she didn't have him neutered, no vaccines, and when we told her that he was fe leuk positive..she didn't believe us. We told her of the risks b/c she has 2 other cats and how its not okay for this guy to go outsid! e anymore b/c he can give it to other cats etc..we also told him about Brenda and the wonderful home she could give him and she wanted to hear nothing about any of it and wanted to come get him immediately. When we handed him over, she swore she would never let him outside again and she would have him vetted within the next few days. Well that was over a week and a half ago. Then like 2 days ago, he showed up on my friends back porch again..screaming his head off til she opened the door and he was in horrible shape. He had bite wounds all over his neck from either a cat or dog and obviously she had let him outside again and he still wasn't neutered. If it was a cat he got into a fight with, chances are he infected that kitty. My friend scooped him up and took him to the clinic and I contacted Brenda. It took the lady 2 weeks to come looking for him the first time, and we don't really think she'll have the balls (excuse my language) to come looking for him again at our clinic considering she swore she would never let him out again. But if she does come to our clinic then we have to face the ethical issues of whether or not to give him back. We don't have her contact info so we would have to wait for her to come looking anyways. So we neutered him and vaccinated him adn are trying to get him to Brenda ASAP. If you have any ideas about transport or a foster until we can figure out transport..please let me know! I would like to have him out of the clinic ASAP so we don't run into any probs. I have 6 cats that are not vaccinated for fe leuk so I can't bring him here. Also I would appreciate whatever you can do to help spread the word about the Lynx-point Himy girl..thanks!!!Jenny
Re: anemia, FeLV strains, life spans 2
Also, an article on autoimmune hemolytic anemia, which is where the cat destroys her own blood cells. Simon appears to have had this at the end, triggered by the lymphoma. Somone on this list serve has a cat who had it, without lymphoma, who was successfully treated. http://www.forestcats.net/aha.htm
anemia, FeLV strains, life spans
I have been doing some research this morning trying to figure out what happened to Simon in the end. I came across this case study which has information, in very technical language, about why many cats with FeLV get anemia. http://www.bloodline.net/stories/storyReader$2338 Actually, it describes the processes by which they become anemic, but says the reason is unknown. It also says that clinical symptoms of FeLV vary by strain and subgroup, as well as by environmental factors. It also says that 30% of cats with FeLV who get lymphoma have it metastisized in the bone marrow. No one else on the lymphoma list serve seems to have a cat who got it in the bone marrow, which is stage V, the last stage, and so I have been feeling like I just caught it late with Simon. I think I did miss early signs and catch it late (that's clear, actually, since he was very jaundiced when I brought him in and I had not noticed that), but it may also have to do with the fact that there are hardly any positive cats on that list serve (why, i don't know). Michelle
Re: anemia, FeLV strains, life spans (From Cherie)
In a message dated 2/9/2005 8:01:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Technical Language to say the least, I can not understand any of this article, it is like a foreign language...but thank you anyway. Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/9/2005 4:39:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have been doing some research this morning trying to figure out what happened to Simon in the end. I came across this case study which has information, in very technical language, about why many cats with FeLV get anemia. http://www.bloodline.net/stories/storyReader$2338Actually, it describes the processes by which they become anemic, but says the reason is unknown. It also says that clinical symptoms of FeLV vary by strain and subgroup, as well as by environmental factors. It also says that 30% of cats with FeLV who get lymphoma have it metastisized in the bone marrow. No one else on the lymphoma list serve seems to have a cat who got it in the bone marrow, which is stage V, the last stage, and so I have been feeling like I just caught it late with Simon. I think I did miss early signs and catch it late (that's clear, actually, since he was very jaundiced when I brought him in and I had not noticed that), but it may also have to do with the fact that there are hardly any positive cats on that list serve (why, i don't know).Michelle Terrie MohrCheck site for available Siameses for adoption!More will be posted soon.http://www.tazzys-siameses-collies.petfinder.org/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wasiameserescuehttp://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/index.htmlhttp://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/myhomepage/petmemorial.htmlTAZZY'S ANIMAL TRANSPORTSSIAMESE COLLIE RESCUEOwner/DriverPetfinder.comAdopt a Homeless Pet!http://www.petfinder.com/http://www.orecatay.com/http://www.awca.net/index.htmhttp://www.felineleukemia.org/http://www.petloss.com/http://www.meezer.com/http://thesiamesestore.com/http://tx.siameserescue.org/adopt.htmlhttp://ca.siameserescue.org/http://co.siameserescue.org/http://va.siameserescue.org/ inline: aks.jpginline: logobuttonsq.jpg
Re: FeLV strains, lifespans -- Yes, the strain/subgroup is a major factor
In answer to Michelle's question... A while back we had someone post on this list who was subsequently kicked off because his style of expressing himself rubbed some listmembers the wrong way. I thought that was unfortunate because this person has a really awesome personal library, is well-read and evidently rubs shoulders with vets and/or researchers and might have had much useful information to share with us. This person provided the first, and best, explanation I've found so far to explain why some cats can live with the virus long term, while other cats develop fatal anemia, lymphomas/other types of cancer, which are fatal. It seems that all cats who become infected with the FeLV virus are infected with the FeLV-A subgroup. This manifestation of the virus is the only one that is passed from cat to cat, and in the scheme of things is less serious in that it causes significant immunosuppression, but not much else. Provided a cat's FeLV infection does not mutate beyond this state, there is a reasonable prognosis for long-term survival, even if the infection has progressed to stage 5, at which point the virus has settled in the bone marrow and the cat will thus remain infected for the rest of his/her life. It is in stage 6 that the mutation and development of fatal symptoms develops. An ELISA+ can indicate even the earlier stages of infection, while an IFA+ correlates with stage 4 on. Other subgroups of the FeLV virus develop within an individual cat through mutation and recombination with that cat's DNA. The FeLV-A+B subgroup is associated with the development of various types of lymphoma or other cancers, while the FeLV-A+C subgroup is the one associated with severe/nonregenerative anemia. (Within each subgroup there is more than one strain, but that seems to be considered useful info only to researchers.) It is possible for both the B and C subgroups to manifest in a particular cat either simultaneously or in tandem so that the cat will have FeLV-A, B+C, which I suppose is the worst case scenario as a cat with some form of lymphoma or cancer might still be considered to have some sort of chance to respond to treatment, but one which also has nonregenerative anemia and can no longer prodcue red blood cells has no chance at all. It IS possible, in research settings to determine which subgroup(s) of the virus a cat may be infected with, but, since there is yet no known way to prevent a mutation from occurring or forestall the development of symptoms once it has, that info is not considered to be useful info except to researchers. It becomes obvious when the serious symptoms of lymphoma/cancer, and/or nonregenerative anemia present that the infection in a particular cat has progressed beyond a simple FeLV-A state to one of its more serious manifestations. Once a cat has crashed and presents with such symptoms, there is, so far, no known treatment that can reliably affect the eventual outcome, which is death. The wild card in all of this seems to be the relative strength of each individual cat's immune response, or whatever immune response he/she still has after becoming infected with FeLV-A. ( Wouldn't it be great if there were some way to test and measure this?!) In this regard it must be assumed there is a genetic component. Some cats are blessed and initially come into this world with a stronger immune system than others. Another factor is how much and what kinds of stressors a cats's immune system may be subjected to, in terms of poor nutrition, other diseases, environmental toxins/pollution, the over-use of vaccines, emotional stress and deprivation, etc. Kittens are most at risk, with geriatric cats whose immune function is declining at an increased-if-not-high risk. Most healthy, adult cats are thought to be naturally and relatively resistant to infection by the FeLV virus and if exposed and transiently infected are able to clear the virus even up to stage 4 of the infectious process. Kittens are most at risk because they can become infected in utero from an infected mom, or soon after birth through nursing. After weaning, young kittens are still at high risk because their immune systems are immature and still developing. For whatever reason, 50 times more FeLV virus replicates in the lymphocytes of kittens than in the lymphocytes of adult cats. It is not so unusual, then, for an adult cat to be exposed, become infected to the extent an ELISA will yield a positive result, or even an IFA positive if the cat is still in stage 4, and for the infection to be only transient and the cat able to seroconvert back to negative status. There is also the possibility, however, that the infection could have become latent and later be triggered back into active status by vaccination or some other type of stress to the immune system. For kittens, however, it is all but unheard of for one who initially tests ELISA
Re: FeLV strains, lifespans -- Yes, the strain/subgroup is a major factor
Thank you for that information, Sally. It seems, then, that strains are not passed between cats but caused by individual mutations? And that mutations are caused in part by genes and in part by environmental factors? I still have this sense, then, that the fact that my cats keep getting lymphoma must mean something about their environment or care. Not many cats on this list seem to get lymphoma. I have had 2, and possibly 3 (Buddie was never definitively diagnosed and may have had the dry form of FIP but likely had lympoma) die of lymphoma. I have not lost them to anything else at this point. I can not figure that out. They are unrelated genetically, but live together. I thought I might have pinpointed stressors that might have triggered it for Jo and Buddie, but I could not for Simon, unless it was my paying less attention to him and the others right after my dog Nubi died, which is when he got sick. Michelle
Re: PCR test and FeLV answer
This reply form Kate is actually FAR more closer to what I understood PCR to be...much more accurate as long as done correctly, and used more often in research...but either way..more accurate...and it tests the genetic materials for the cat as to see any infection at allI found (please no offense!!) Dr. Susan's answer to be dated.(as well as her article on WINN) Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/5/2005 12:54:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This reply form Kate is actually FAR more closer to what I understood PCR to be...much more accurate as long as done correctly, and used more often in research...but either way..more accurate...and it tests the genetic materials for the cat as to see any infection at allI found (please no offense!!) Dr. Susan's answer to be dated.(as well as her article on WINN) I dont know WHERE this came form but I posted this like 2 weeks agoAOHELL is acting up again..please disregard Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:52:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So what is correctly, and how do you know? Cherie Cherie, I am not sure if you are asking your question in general or are asking Dr. Susan a question. If you are asking Dr. Susan, she will be back on the 7th of Feb. from her meeting in Houston. I just wasn't sure who you were directing the question to. I can send her this when she gets back, if you would like, OK? Anne and Jimi Too Cool, Simms and Sophie among other furry friends in MI
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
I am sorry, yes I was directing the question to Dr. Susan, sorry for any miscommunication. Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:52:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So what is correctly, and how do you know?CherieCherie, I am not sure if you are asking your question in general or are asking Dr. Susan a question. If you are asking Dr. Susan, she will be back on the 7th of Feb. from her meeting in Houston. I just wasn't sure who you were directing the question to. I can send her this when she gets back, if you would like, OK?Anne and Jimi Too Cool, Simms and Sophie among other furry friends in MI
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/3/2005 9:57:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am sorry, yes I was directing the question to Dr. Susan, sorry for any miscommunication. Cherie Oh, that's OK, Cherie! I just wanted you to know that if it were for her, there will be a little delay. :-) Anne and Jimi Too Cool, Simms and Sophie among other furry friends in MI
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/3/2005 2:52:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So what is correctly, and how do you know? Cherie That's the problem Dr Susan is trying to get acrossyou DONT know :( Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
what about the western Inkblot tests and all that stuff..if you dont mind the history lesson :) I thought the IFA and Dr Hardy's tests were different too? Dr. Hardy's test is an IFA test (immunofluorescent antibody) and was the first one offered. It detects cell-associated virus. The in-clinic ELISA tests detect soluble viral antigen. Therefore, results from these tests mean different things and give us different information about the viral status of the cat. Western blot (often called immunoblot) is an antibody test and is not usually performed for FeLV, but is used as a confirmatory test for FIV. We need different things from screening tests versus confirmatory tests. For a screening test, we want a method that is very sensitive. Sensitivity is defined as the likelihood the test will be positive when the disease is actually present. Sensitive tests produce a low number of false negatives, but they can produce some false positives. Therefore, positive test results should be confirmed by a second test methodology. ELISA or lateral flow tests (immunochromatographic tests) for in-clinic use are the preferred screening tests for FeLV. Confirmatory tests should be highly specific. Specificity is defined as the likelihood the test will be negative when the disease is not present. Highly specific tests will produce a low number of false positives and are good confirmatory tests. IFA is the preferred confirmatory test for FeLV. It is a statistical truth that it is very hard to make a test that is both highly sensitive and highly specific. One test usually cannot be both. Therefore, we have different expectations of screening tests versus confirmatory tests, which means we have to understand the limitations of each type. Sensitivity and specificity of a test are strongly influenced by the prevalence of the disease in the population you are testing. Simply put, if the disease is common in the population you are testing, a positive test result is more likely to be a true positive. If the disease is at low prevalence in your test population, a positive test result is more likely to be false. When we do the statistical calculations, a positive result on a screening test for FeLV could be wrong 2 out of 3 times in a population with low disease prevalence. That is why we need very specific confirmatory tests. And that is why it is crucial to understand these concepts of testing. Sensitivity and specificity are statistical calculations (based on comparison to a gold-standard), and well-researched tests have independent measures of the sensitivity and specificity published in the veterinary literature. Unfortunately, there are no up to date evaluations in the literature of the sens/spec for the commonly available FeLV tests, both screening and confirmatory. There are no published evaluations of the sens/spec of commercially available PCR tests for FeLV. Most labs doing PCR do not evaluate the sens/spec or negative/positive predictive values (see below) of their own tests, and this makes it very hard for veterinarians to choose the best test for their purpose. The commercial labs are rarely interested in encouraging independent evaluation of their tests. Given that there is no requirement for oversight or regulation of commercial labs, we should all be sceptical about new test methodologies and we should be looking for independent evaluation of them before we pay for them and make life or death decisions based on them. The other statistical calculations that give us good information about diagnostic tests are positive and negative predictive values. The positive predictive value (PPV) of a test is the probability of a positive result in a truly infected individual. The negative predictive value (NPV) is the probability of a negative result in an uninfected individual. Crucial information to know about a test. We are beginning to get independent measures of the sens/spec of FIV tests, and this is the area I have been working in. Our data has been published in major peer-review journals in the last year, and presented at the annual meeting of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine last June in Minneapolis as well as the meeting of the International Veterinary Vaccines and Diagnostics Conference in 2003. Research for FIV testing is crucial right now because of the introduction of the FIV vaccine, and several projects are ongoing. Just yesterday, I drew blood from our cats for projects at 3 different labs. With all due respect to the person who said it, I don't think I am out of date. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL
RE: FELV-FIV test
This new one is some sort of combined FELV-FIV vaccine Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Faye Lewis Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:31 AM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: RE: FELV-FIV test All of my cats now have the new FIV vaccine. FWIW, no one had a reaction or any kind of false positive. They are Felv negative but are regularly tested for FELV and FIV because of their exposure. 9 cats with the FIV vaccine and all are doing fine. We are in the midst of an FIV mess so I feel better about the vaccine. From: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.net To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: RE: FELV-FIV test Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:11:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by mc1-f38.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:17:57 -0800 Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j11FHZx20366for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:17:45 -0600 Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:13:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j11FDIY17043for felvtalk-utils; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:13:18 -0600 Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j11FCno16777for felvtalk@vlists.net; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:12:59 -0600 Received: from dialup-4.236.99.91.dial1.newyork1.level3.net ([4.236.99.91] helo=CHRISB)by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1)id 1Cvzgp-0004DP-00for felvtalk@vlists.net; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:11:39 -0500 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jHEA/m/s0mMabJXuNMt37O7ouFz/rfu9tg= X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection. Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No Virus Spam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.563, required 5,autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by vlists.net id j11FD7n16970 Precedence: list Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2005 15:18:02.0642 (UTC) FILETIME=[38C0E720:01C50871] Thanks--I too am a little wary of new vaccines unless absolutely necessary I appreciate any comments before I talk to him about it Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Faye Lewis Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:34 AM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: FELV-FIV test My vet recently began using a FELV-FIV vaccine. He started last summer. He is seeing an epidemic of FIV in his office and is recommending it to all of his clients. Especially those of us with cats that go outside. He has never been vaccine happy so I take his recommendations seriously. He hates to use a new vaccine the first year. Years ago, we had a strangles' epidemic at a barn I boarded my horses at. My vet talked me out of the strangles' vaccine. With horses falling ill left and right, I did not think this wise but reluctantly went along with his advice. This was the old vaccine that had more problems than what it was worth. My horses were the few that never got strangles. He was right. The vaccine was dreadful. Several horses got sicker from that than they would have from strangles. Mine never got sick with anything. When it comes to vaccines, I listen to him. He has experience, good judgement and keeps up with his journals.
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Ann, Please thank Dr. Susan for taking so much care to clarify her opinion about PCR testing, it has been a very informative discussion topic. I was personally looking for a non-invasive way to 'simply' assertain whether my "positive turned negative" was now truly negative. It doesn't appear that the PCR test would be definitive for this purpose, (at least based on the variable testing/interpretation methods), so I probably won't be pursuing it any further. I had sent Dr. Susan's first reply to Kate; here is her response: Hi Nina, Yes, Dr. Susan is correct that ELISA tests for the antigen of the FeLV virus. If a patient is positive for a virus, say HIV, then the patient's serum contains antibodies to HIV and it will bind to the HIV antigens. For simplicity I left this out. I would like you to see how ELISA works. If you go to www.biology.arizona.edu/immunology/activities/elisa/technique.html, there is an animation of how ELISA works that is simple to understand. Dr. Susan also says that she recommends IFA. If you look on the internet several studies also agree with her, and it appears to be also a good test. However, she does not support PCR. As I said before, lab interpretation of PCR may be difficult and purification of feline DNA from viral DNA, may be difficult, but not impossible and certainly doable. PCR detects the nucleic acids of the virus. More specific primers may be needed for PCR of FeLV, but scientifically, if you have these primers and a patient is positive, a positve PCR means positive infection. I've attached a whole bunch of web sites for you to look at. Some are scientific papers, some are FeLV web sites, and some will help you learn more about the science of testing for FeLV. The best suggestion that I can give is to learn the science behind these tests. Secondly, I have included web sites that do not necessarily agree with each other. I can find articles in Vet journals and in scientific journals that say that PCR is a really great thing for testing FeLV and is much better than ELISA. I can also find journals that say PCR doesn't really give that great of results, and to use IFA if you get a negative test for ELISA. You have to understand that there will always be debates in science and medicine. Noboby knows the whole story on any virus, nor how to cure a virus. Weusescience and experience to find out what works and how to make treatments better. Both Dr. Susan and I come with our own opinions. As a vet, she will see what works in her clinic. Other vets maycome to different conclusions. As ascientist, I have mypersonal faith in testing such as PCR. It's a great techniquethat allows us to take a small amount of genetic material and amplify it; However, for each specific virus we need to know the signature sequences of the virus, to make PCR more specific. Basically, you are only getting opinions from both Dr. Susan and I. Nobody knows how to cure a virus- any virus- from HIV to the common cold to FeLV. Period.Animals doctors, human doctors, and scientists haveone particularly irritating traitin common. This is arrogance. We do know the answers tomany things, but what they don't want the public to know is that, whatwe do know is actually so very little in the scheme of things.For instance,the connation of brain surgeon, conjures up someone who is really smart. Ask a neurolgisthow memory is stored in the brain, and if he or she is honest, you will get the answer of "I don't know." In other words, even the most basic question in neurologystill can't be answered. Never forget, there is alot we don't know. The best thing I can let you know is to 1) keep asking questions, but more importantly, start learning the science behind these questions. Do first hand research, grab virology, immunology, and biochemistry textbooks from a university bookstore (or you can buy them used on the internet). Look uphow antibodies and antigens work. Look up PCR and how it works. 2) Know that science and medicine are ever changing, and we learn more everyday (including sometimes, that wecan be wrong). 3) We do not haveall the answers, and in fact we actually only know very little.4) Keep faith that as more is learned about the virus, better treatments will come along, as well as better testing. 5) The more doctors and scientists you ask, the more opinions you will get. Start learning the science for yourself, and you may find you agree or disagree with different treatments and proceedures. Try out those treatments that you believe may work (do your homework first!!!).The more informed you are, the better for your kitties. I have a feeling that alot ofresearch will be done on FeLV and FIV. Scientists are using it asatool to learn more about HIV. Hope all is well. Kate __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Here is a list of articles and info to check out
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Dear Ann... I second Nina's motion! Dr. Susan has clarified several points with regards to the relative merits of the various FeLV testing protocols. Of course it still doesn't solve my dilemma of how to find out whether or not a cat who initially tested FeLV positive on an ELISA and/or IFA may be carrying a latent infection without having to do and invasive, stressful and expensive bone marrow reactivation test. Is there any sort of test that would be less invasive that could do so? Could a rigidly monitored PCR test not done by a commercial lab, but say by a university vet school, be helpful in this regard? Sally in San Jose
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
If I understood the posts ( I'm not saying I did!), wouldn't a latent infection NOT show a positive Elisa/IFA? I was wondering if there is any way to detect latent infection. Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:23 PM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer Dear Ann... I second Nina's motion! Dr. Susan has clarified several points with regards to the relative merits of the various FeLV testing protocols. Of course it still doesn't solve my dilemma of how to find out whether or not a cat who initially tested FeLV positive on an ELISA and/or IFA may be carrying a latent infection without having to do and invasive, stressful and expensive bone marrow reactivation test. Is there any sort of test that would be less invasive that could do so? Could a rigidly monitored PCR test not done by a commercial lab, but say by a university vet school, be helpful in this regard? Sally in San Jose
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Chris, That's pretty much why I asked the question in the first place! So far, from what I've gathered, the only reliable way to tell if a cat who has tested positive and subsequently tests negative is not still harboring the virus, is with a bone marrow test. I guess if we were sure of the reliability of the lab doing the PCR, that would tell us too. Sally brought up a good idea with possibly using a university research lab for this, but I'm not curious enough to pursue it any further. I'm just going to think of Timmy as negative, and provide care for him as if he's positive. I keep praying for the day when questions like this become routine, (even better; become moot). Until that day, it's like Cherie's scattered puzzle pieces; we have to keep gathering them up and hope we'll have enough to solve the puzzle. Nina Chris wrote: If I understood the posts ( I'm not saying I did!), wouldn't a latent infection NOT show a positive Elisa/IFA? I was wondering if there is any way to detect latent infection. Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:23 PM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer Dear Ann... I second Nina's motion! Dr. Susan has clarified several points with regards to the relative merits of the various FeLV testing protocols. Of course it still doesn't solve my dilemma of how to find out whether or not a cat who initially tested FeLV positive on an ELISA and/or IFA may be carrying a latent infection without having to do and invasive, stressful and expensive bone marrow reactivation test. Is there any sort of test that would be less invasive that could do so? Could a rigidly monitored PCR test not done by a commercial lab, but say by a university vet school, be helpful in this regard? Sally in San Jose
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
I second Nina's motion! Dr. Susan has clarified several points with regards to the relative merits of the various FeLV testing protocols. Of course it still doesn't solve my dilemma of how to find out whether or not a cat who initially tested FeLV positive on an ELISA and/or IFA may be carrying a latent infection without having to do and invasive, stressful and expensive bone marrow reactivation test. Is there any sort of test that would be less invasive that could do so? Could a rigidly monitored PCR test not done by a commercial lab, but say by a university vet school, be helpful in this regard? Latently infected cats by definition are extremely hard to detect. They will be negative using ELISA and IFA on blood samples, and negative with IFA on bone marrow. Could a very good PCR detect latent infection in the bone marrow? Yes it is possible, but I would not rely on a commercial lab for this. The bottom line message I am trying to convey is that PCR can certainly be used for FeLV, there is a big difference between what quality of test is done in university research settings and what might be offered commercially. Don't assume the quality to be equal. Commercial labs have a bottom line to consider and they may not have the same stringency of quality control, or attention to evaluating the efficacy of their test as in university settings. You can indeed find scientific papers talking about the usefulness of PCR for FeLV, but these are NOT from commercial labs. Whole different thing. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 2, 2005 5:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
I will be away at the Winn Feline Foundation board meeting in Houston from Thurs Feb. 3 to Mon. Feb. 7. Please hold any messages until after Feb. 7. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 2, 2005 5:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
If I understood the posts ( I'm not saying I did!), wouldn't a latent infection NOT show a positive Elisa/IFA? I was wondering if there is any way to detect latent infection. By definition, latently infected cats test negative with IFA and ELISA on blood and with IFA on bone marrow. A very good PCR test on bone marrow might detect latently infected cats, but no one has done that research with sufficient numbers of cats to tell us how reliable this method would be. And as I said before, I certainly would not use a commercial lab at this time, since we do not know how reliable their PCR tests are. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
So let me get this rightbottom line is that current tests, ELISA/IFA, performed on kittens, for example, do not always identify a cat as having FELV virus (if infection is in latent stage). Would this explain cats who tested neg as kittens but show up years later as pos (I have one such cat who had never been outdoors or exposed to pos cats). My other cats, who have been with her for years, have tested neg for 2 years, but am I right in assuming that they could have latent infection? (Just a note though, it would not change anything that I do nor affect my decision to keep them together-though I have vaccinated my negs.) Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 6:33 PM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer I second Nina's motion! Dr. Susan has clarified several points with regards to the relative merits of the various FeLV testing protocols. Of course it still doesn't solve my dilemma of how to find out whether or not a cat who initially tested FeLV positive on an ELISA and/or IFA may be carrying a latent infection without having to do and invasive, stressful and expensive bone marrow reactivation test. Is there any sort of test that would be less invasive that could do so? Could a rigidly monitored PCR test not done by a commercial lab, but say by a university vet school, be helpful in this regard? Latently infected cats by definition are extremely hard to detect. They will be negative using ELISA and IFA on blood samples, and negative with IFA on bone marrow. Could a very good PCR detect latent infection in the bone marrow? Yes it is possible, but I would not rely on a commercial lab for this. The bottom line message I am trying to convey is that PCR can certainly be used for FeLV, there is a big difference between what quality of test is done in university research settings and what might be offered commercially. Don't assume the quality to be equal. Commercial labs have a bottom line to consider and they may not have the same stringency of quality control, or attention to evaluating the efficacy of their test as in university settings. You can indeed find scientific papers talking about the usefulness of PCR for FeLV, but these are NOT from commercial labs. Whole different thing. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 2, 2005 5:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/2/2005 3:38:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I understood the posts ( I'm not saying I did!), wouldn't a latentinfection NOT show a positive Elisa/IFA? I was wondering if there is anyway to detect latent infection.Chris yes you are correct...and yes a PCR test...done correctly can detect a latent infection..the key word is CORRECTLY Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
So what is correctly, and how do you know? Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/2/2005 3:38:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If I understood the posts ( I'm not saying I did!), wouldn't a latentinfection NOT show a positive Elisa/IFA? I was wondering if there is anyway to detect latent infection.Chris yes you are correct...and yes a PCR test...done correctly can detect a latent infection..the key word is CORRECTLY Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
in reply. from ANTECHS site (http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/clients/antechNews/2004/sep04_01.htm ) The polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test has been used for the diagnosis of FeLV infection. This test detects viral nucleic acid sequences instead of protein antigens. PCR may be useful in helping to determine the true status of cats with discordant results from other testing techniques. PCR is capable of detecting FeLV infection in blood, solid tissues, tissue cultures, and fixed specimens. Any new test methodology, especially one so important as the diagnosis of FeLV, should be carefully scrutinized and independent verification of the test's specificity and sensitivity should be sought. You notice Antech does not give their test sensitivity, specificity, and positive and negative predictive values. They may not know them. This is the type of information we need to tell if a test is really useful, whether we should base important decisions on it, and whether we should spend money on it. A description of the test itself, such as you posted, is only one small part of the story. We should not be basing our decisions about using a test solely on the material put out by those with a commercial interest in the test. Just because a test methodology is feasible in print does not guarantee any specific lab is actually good at doing the test. That's the crux of the matter. I tell vets it is like buying a car. If you are an informed car buyer, you will check out independent sources for the reliability and service record of the car you are thinking of buying. You won't go only on what the salesman tells you because you will recognize his/her view necessarily is biased. The person selling the car (or the test) is less likely to tell you of the pitfalls or the downsides of the product. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 31, 2005 11:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Nina, Dr. Susan was quoting Lisa in this one. Anne and Jimi Too Cool, Simms and Sophie among other furry friends in MI In a message dated 2/1/2005 1:13:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ann, I'm confused. Am I missing email transmissions? Where does the quote directly below, (beginning: "This reply from Kate"), come from, you, Dr. Susan, or someone else? Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This reply form Kate is actually FAR more closer to what I understood PCR to be...much more accurate as long as done correctly, and used more often in research...but either way..more accurate...and it tests the genetic materials for the cat as to see any infection at allI found (please no offense!!) Dr. Susan's answer to be dated.(as well as her article on WINN) Dated in what way? It is a mistake to assume that a new technique such as PCR is more accurate than exisiting methods until that has been confirmed. It turned out not to be more accurate when done by commercial labs for diagnosis of FIV, and work done at the University of Guelph suggests that PCR for FeLV may not be any better. So much depends on the lab and how their primers are designed, how the sample is collected, handled and shipped, and how the lab implements quality control. A lot of variables! I have visited commercial PCR labs and talked with the scientists. I am doing an ongoing research project with one of them, and with two university labs doing PCR. I doubt you'd find very many infectious disease or feline specialists right now who would recommend PCR for diagnosis of FeLV on a routine basis, and certainly not from commercial labs. If you contemplate using a PCR lab for diagnosis of FeLV, ask them to give you their test's sensitivity, specificity, negative and positive predictive values and compare these numbers to those published for the ELISA tests. You'll be surprised - first surprised if the lab even knows these statistics for their own test, and then surprised at the comparison especially when the tests are evaluated by independent researchers. The potential pitfalls of commercial labs doing PCR are well documented. I have direct, first-hand experience with what can happen when vets use commercial labs for PCR diagnosis of infectious diseases. I have published on this topic in peer-reviewed journals in 2004 and presented my findings at veterinary conferences. I will be doing many lectures for vets around the U.S. this year on diagnosis of FeLV and FIV. I better not be dated! Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
FELV-FIV test
My vet recently began using a FELV-FIV vaccine. He started last summer. He is seeing an epidemic of FIV in his office and is recommending it to all of his clients. Especially those of us with cats that go outside. He has never been vaccine happy so I take his recommendations seriously. He hates to use a new vaccine the first year. Years ago, we had a strangles' epidemic at a barn I boarded my horses at. My vet talked me out of the strangles' vaccine. With horses falling ill left and right, I did not think this wise but reluctantly went along with his advice. This was the old vaccine that had more problems than what it was worth. My horses were the few that never got strangles. He was right. The vaccine was dreadful. Several horses got sicker from that than they would have from strangles. Mine never got sick with anything. When it comes to vaccines, I listen to him. He has experience, good judgement and keeps up with his journals.
Re: New FELV-FIV vaccine?
Thanks Chris, I will talk to my vet about it. CherieChris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My vet recently mentioned that there is a new vaccine about to be approved that is for FELV FIVÂ… I have my negs vaccinated for FELV but not for FIV as I had read someplace that it was not particularly effective, could cause some problems that cat would show + for FIV. My vet seemed to be happy with the new vaccine saying he did not like the old vaccine. To be honest he mentioned it on a day I was in with Big Boy was anxious to leave so I really didnÂ’t spend much time discussing it. Â… My guys are not due for vaccination for several months but before he wants to use this new vaccine, I was wondering if anyone else had heard about this. Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: FELV-FIV test
Thanks--I too am a little wary of new vaccines unless absolutely necessary I appreciate any comments before I talk to him about it Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Faye Lewis Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:34 AM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: FELV-FIV test My vet recently began using a FELV-FIV vaccine. He started last summer. He is seeing an epidemic of FIV in his office and is recommending it to all of his clients. Especially those of us with cats that go outside. He has never been vaccine happy so I take his recommendations seriously. He hates to use a new vaccine the first year. Years ago, we had a strangles' epidemic at a barn I boarded my horses at. My vet talked me out of the strangles' vaccine. With horses falling ill left and right, I did not think this wise but reluctantly went along with his advice. This was the old vaccine that had more problems than what it was worth. My horses were the few that never got strangles. He was right. The vaccine was dreadful. Several horses got sicker from that than they would have from strangles. Mine never got sick with anything. When it comes to vaccines, I listen to him. He has experience, good judgement and keeps up with his journals.
RE: FELV-FIV test
All of my cats now have the new FIV vaccine. FWIW, no one had a reaction or any kind of false positive. They are Felv negative but are regularly tested for FELV and FIV because of their exposure. 9 cats with the FIV vaccine and all are doing fine. We are in the midst of an FIV mess so I feel better about the vaccine. From: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.net To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: RE: FELV-FIV test Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:11:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by mc1-f38.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:17:57 -0800 Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j11FHZx20366for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:17:45 -0600 Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:13:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j11FDIY17043for felvtalk-utils; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:13:18 -0600 Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j11FCno16777for felvtalk@vlists.net; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:12:59 -0600 Received: from dialup-4.236.99.91.dial1.newyork1.level3.net ([4.236.99.91] helo=CHRISB)by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1)id 1Cvzgp-0004DP-00for felvtalk@vlists.net; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:11:39 -0500 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jHEA/m/s0mMabJXuNMt37O7ouFz/rfu9tg= X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection. Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No Virus Spam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.563, required 5,autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60) X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by vlists.net id j11FD7n16970 Precedence: list Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2005 15:18:02.0642 (UTC) FILETIME=[38C0E720:01C50871] Thanks--I too am a little wary of new vaccines unless absolutely necessary I appreciate any comments before I talk to him about it Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Faye Lewis Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:34 AM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: FELV-FIV test My vet recently began using a FELV-FIV vaccine. He started last summer. He is seeing an epidemic of FIV in his office and is recommending it to all of his clients. Especially those of us with cats that go outside. He has never been vaccine happy so I take his recommendations seriously. He hates to use a new vaccine the first year. Years ago, we had a strangles' epidemic at a barn I boarded my horses at. My vet talked me out of the strangles' vaccine. With horses falling ill left and right, I did not think this wise but reluctantly went along with his advice. This was the old vaccine that had more problems than what it was worth. My horses were the few that never got strangles. He was right. The vaccine was dreadful. Several horses got sicker from that than they would have from strangles. Mine never got sick with anything. When it comes to vaccines, I listen to him. He has experience, good judgement and keeps up with his journals.
Re: FELV-FIV test
I agree and wait two or more years before trying anything new, it can take a long time for them to put adverse affects together with the vaccine. Look at all those diet medications that people have been taking for years and now there are class action suites to sue the companies because people are dying. -- Belinda Happiness is being owned by cats ... Be-Mi-Kitties ... http://www.bemikitties.com Post Adoptable FeLV/FIV/FIP Cats/Kittens http://adopt.bemikitties.com FeLV Candle Light Service http://www.bemikitties.com/cls HostDesign4U.com (affordable hosting web design) http://HostDesign4U.com --- BMK Designs (non-profit web sites) http://bmk.bemikitties.com
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/1/2005 7:49:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We should not be basing our decisions about using a test solely on thematerial put out by those with a commercial interest in the test. Justbecause a test methodology is feasible in print does not guarantee anyspecific lab is actually good at doing the test. That's the crux of thematter. I understand that but Im not using that as my only sourceand from my understanding PCR testing is NOT new to FeLV or any kind of virus...I am under the understanding that it was among the first tests available to check for it Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
RE: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
i understand="" that="" but="" im="" not="" using="" as="" my="" sourceand="" from="" myunderstanding PCR testing is NOT new to FeLV or any kind of virus...I am under the understanding that it was among the first tests available to check for it No, PCR is a relatively recent development. The first tests available for FeLV were IFA tests. I remember when I first started in practice 17 years ago, the only place we could get them done was Dr. Hardy's lab. Then came readily available in-house ELISA kits, and in the last few years, commercial PCR tests. One of the problems we have with PCR for FeLV is its sensitivity. It may detect parts of the viral genome in cats that have cleared infection, and call them positive when they are not. We do not fully understand how PCR results should be interpreted, and that's with the caveat the lab must give reliable results. We have significant problems with both false positive and false negatives with retrovirus PCR testing. More is known about test performance for FIV, not enough is known about test performance for FeLV. Until we know more, experts and specialists such as myself are very cautious about using PCR for feline retroviruses. Check the literature on FIV testing by PCR and you will see what I mean about problems with reliability of PCR tests offered by commercial labs. One American lab I worked with had the right result only 50% of the time - you do just as well tossing a coin and it costs less. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^
Re: FELV+ Kitty
Linda Go to the cats forum at about.comhttp://login.about.com/forums.htm?seamlesswebtag=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Eabout%2Ecom%2Fab%2Dcats%2Fstart%2F%3Ffpi%3Dyes%26redirCnt%3D1webtag=ab-cats(that gets you to the log in page for the cats forum. You may have to join to post, but it's free and only takes a minute or two. Go there and post about Ginger as "FeLV kitten in MA needs home" Or better yet, "Female FeLV kitten needs home" There's a member there who lives in PA andis looking for a female FeLV+ to add to her FeLV+ group. She wants to balance out the "testosterone" in the house - I think the owner has one or two females, several males and male humans in the home and feels out numbered. I posted to her several times and read a lot of her posts, and she would be an excellent Mom for Ginger. Post about her in either the "general" section or in the "feral/rescue" section - it will get seen faster there - and specify that she's FeLV+ in the title. BTW - I'm "cathelper" over there. I haven't posted much in the last few weeks, but I've been a regular there since 2002. Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 2/1/2005 7:22:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OneAmerican lab I worked with had the right result only 50% of the time - youdo just as well tossing a coin and it costs less. that's pretty bad!!! what about the western Inkblot tests and all that stuff..if you dont mind the history lesson :) I thought the IFA and Dr Hardy's tests were different too? Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
PCR test and FeLV answer
Hi guys, I haven't had time to check my other emails and I late for a dog training appointment. I did see this answer from Kate, chemist that used to work at my vet clinic. Synchronistically, she is now doing research involving FelV and PCR testing! I asked my vets the question I posed to Dr. Susan and this is the answer: This is Kate who used to work at VMSG. I stopped by the office the other day, and asked about my old buddies. Michelle told me Jazz and Gracie were doing well with the feline interferon treatment. I'm so happy to hear that Anyway, I'm currently working at California Lutheran University, and I am getting to do research. Coincidentally enough I am working with FeLV (a strain that has not been sequenced yet) and am running PCR on it. Okay, the difference between PCR and ELISA ELISA screens for antibodies (proteins) that are specific for the FeLV virus. False positives may occur from other antibodies that mimic antibodies to the virus. Furthermore, kittens may show false positive, if the queen (momma cat) was exposed to FeLV, passing her antibodies along to her kitten, but not necessarily the virus. ELISA shows that a cat has been exposed to FeLV, but not necessarily has the virus (this is why repeat testing must be done in order to determine that the cat is indeed positive for FeLV). On the other hand, it is possible for a cat to be FeLV positive, but to have a negative ELISA. For instance, if the virus is latent, ELISA may not show positive for the virus. PCR (polymerase chain reaction), however, deals directly with the nucleic acid (the genteic material) of the virus, and amplifies it. If the virus is not present, the genetic material of the virus is not present, and therefore, PCR will not make more of something that isn't there. So, if a kitty has FeLV, it will be detectable by PCR. A positive for PCR is 100% positive (provided the person running the sample did not contaminate it). A negative PCR is almost always negative (provided the person running the PCR is experienced in the technique). There are many studies out there that have used PCR to detect FeLV from bone marrow. Therefore, a blood sample could be submitted to test for FeLV. Ideally, the best would be to get a bone marrow sample. Side note, red blood cells do not carry genetic material (they are the only cells that do not do this). Consequently, at a crime scene when the detectives obtain a blood sample they extract the genetic material from the white blood cells, and run a PCR. By running PCR they are able to take a small bit of genetic material and get it to generate alot of genetic material. The genetic material in humans is of course DNA. The FeLV virus's genetic material is RNA. It is able to take it's RNA and make DNA (a process called reverse transcription, which only certain viruses can do), but it's DNA is short lived. Viruses cannot replicate on their own and require a host to carry out this process. Short answer to your question is, yes, you can do a PCR test for FeLV. Why this isn't used always instead of ELISA is a whole other can of worms. Basically, you have to separate kitty DNA from virus RNA, not hard but there can be contamination. The genetic sequence of FeLV strain A is known, but researchers are not sure that this is the only strain that causes the virus, and whether other strains have an effect on the disease. The primers (the little pieces of genetic material that tag the genetic material of the virus) have to be specific to make PCR work, i.e. to amplify the virus's genetic material. Then there is a problem with standardization of tests from lab to lab. PCR is an awesome tool, but alas, like everything else in the universe, comes with its own set of rules. Basically, scientists do not have all the answers yet to FeLV. However, when we get results, these are published which allows doctors more information to treat thier patients. But somewhere in a small lab, researchers continue to seek answers. Don't know if this helps or if you are more confused.
Dr. Susan's comments RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Okay, the difference between PCR and ELISA ELISA screens for antibodies (proteins) that are specific for the FeLV virus. There is some significant misinformation in the post you sent me. The available ELISA tests for FeLV all screen for viral ANTIGEN, usually the core antigen p27. They are NOT antibody tests. Therefore, we do not get false positives in kittens born to FeLV positive mothers. PCR testing is looking for viral genetic material. PCR is now popular as a means of detection of infectious diseases, but we have to remember that most of these tests are unvalidated, and are not independently verified. There are signficant issues with PCR that make it a difficult test method to get right. For example, PCR testing for FIV has turned out to be especially problematic, with some labs getting the right answer only 50% of the time! You could do just as well tossing a coin and save your money. The in-clinic ELISA kits are good screening tests for FeLV, but a positive should be verified using IFA. I do not recommend using PCR as either a screening test or a confirmatory test at this time. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^
Re: Dr. Susan's comments RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Dr. Susan, Thank you for continuing to monitor our questions. I too was confused about why Kate would state that the ELISA screens for antibodies, when I had previously been told that it is antigens that it screens for. I hope you don't mind; I'm sending your response off to Kate to further clarify. Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay, the difference between PCR and ELISA ELISA screens for antibodies (proteins) that are specific for the FeLV virus. There is some significant misinformation in the post you sent me. The available ELISA tests for FeLV all screen for viral ANTIGEN, usually the core antigen p27. They are NOT antibody tests. Therefore, we do not get false positives in kittens born to FeLV positive mothers. PCR testing is looking for viral genetic material. PCR is now popular as a means of detection of infectious diseases, but we have to remember that most of these tests are unvalidated, and are not independently verified. There are signficant issues with PCR that make it a difficult test method to get right. For example, PCR testing for FIV has turned out to be especially problematic, with some labs getting the right answer only 50% of the time! You could do just as well tossing a coin and save your money. The in-clinic ELISA kits are good screening tests for FeLV, but a positive should be verified using IFA. I do not recommend using PCR as either a screening test or a confirmatory test at this time. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com http://catvet.homestead.com/ __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^
RE: Dr. Susan's comments RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Thank you for continuing to monitor our questions. I too was confused about why Kate would state that the ELISA screens for antibodies, when I had previously been told that it is antigens that it screens for. I hope you don't mind; I'm sending your response off to Kate to further clarify. Nina You are certainly welcome to forward my comments. I don't want to confuse people with misinformation. Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
Re: Dr. Susan's comments RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 1/31/2005 6:44:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I too was confused about why Kate would state that the ELISA screens for antibodies, my guess it would be a simple mistype Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
This reply form Kate is actually FAR more closer to what I understood PCR to be...much more accurate as long as done correctly, and used more often in research...but either way..more accurate...and it tests the genetic materials for the cat as to see any infection at allI found (please no offense!!) Dr. Susan's answer to be dated.(as well as her article on WINN) Dated in what way? It is a mistake to assume that a new technique such as PCR is more accurate than exisiting methods until that has been confirmed. It turned out not to be more accurate when done by commercial labs for diagnosis of FIV, and work done at the University of Guelph suggests that PCR for FeLV may not be any better. So much depends on the lab and how their primers are designed, how the sample is collected, handled and shipped, and how the lab implements quality control. A lot of variables! I have visited commercial PCR labs and talked with the scientists. I am doing an ongoing research project with one of them, and with two university labs doing PCR. I doubt you'd find very many infectious disease or feline specialists right now who would recommend PCR for diagnosis of FeLV on a routine basis, and certainly not from commercial labs. If you contemplate using a PCR lab for diagnosis of FeLV, ask them to give you their test's sensitivity, specificity, negative and positive predictive values and compare these numbers to those published for the ELISA tests. You'll be surprised - first surprised if the lab even knows these statistics for their own test, and then surprised at the comparison especially when the tests are evaluated by independent researchers. The potential pitfalls of commercial labs doing PCR are well documented. I have direct, first-hand experience with what can happen when vets use commercial labs for PCR diagnosis of infectious diseases. I have published on this topic in peer-reviewed journals in 2004 and presented my findings at veterinary conferences. I will be doing many lectures for vets around the U.S. this year on diagnosis of FeLV and FIV. I better not be dated! Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 1/31/2005 9:26:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is a mistake to assume that a new technique such as PCR is more accuratethan exisiting methods until that has been confirmed. It turned out not tobe more accurate when done by commercial labs for diagnosis of FIV, and workdone at the University of Guelph suggests that PCR for FeLV may not be anybetter in reply. from ANTECHS site (http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/clients/antechNews/2004/sep04_01.htm) The polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test has been used for the diagnosis of FeLV infection. This test detects viral nucleic acid sequences instead of protein antigens. PCR may be useful in helping to determine the true status of cats with discordant results from other testing techniques. PCR is capable of detecting FeLV infection in blood, solid tissues, tissue cultures, and fixed specimens. also ANTECH refer's to "screening tests" as the ELISA test Although testing is relatively straight forward, no test is accurate 100% of the time. It is possible to have discordant test results, especially if the tests target different disease stages or require different specimens. In populations with a low prevalence of infection, 50% of cats with positive test results may be uninfected. Since the consequences of both false-positive and false-negative test results can be disastrous for individual cats or for multiple cat populations, confirming positive test results is crucial, especially in asymptomatic cats. Generally, screening tests are believed to be more sensitive for FeLV and FIV infection (fewer false-negatives), whereas the advanced confirma-tory tests are felt to be more specific (fewer false-positives). It is actually a very informative and interesting article considering our recent discussions on the different types of test and yes it can be easily contaminated..I stated that and also "when done correctly" was in my post regarding PCR testing. It is too expensivee for most people to consider, or for vets to commonly recommend. I see it commonly go for 65-105$ per test..just for that ONE TEST!!! Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Lisa, Are you confusing this Dr. Susan with Dr. Susan Winn? t[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This reply form Kate is actually FAR more closer to what I understoodPCR to be...much more accurate as long as done correctly, and used moreoften in research...but either way..more accurate...and it tests the geneticmaterials for the cat as to see any infection at allI found (please nooffense!!) Dr. Susan's answer to be dated.(as well as her article on WINN)Dated in what way?It is a mistake to assume that a new technique such as PCR is more accuratethan exisiting methods until that has been confirmed. It turned out not tobe more accurate when done by commercial labs for diagnosis of FIV, and workdone at the University of Guelph suggests that PCR for FeLV may not be anybetter. So much depends on the! lab and how their primers are designed, howthe sample is collected, handled and shipped, and how the lab implementsquality control. A lot of variables! I have visited commercial PCR labs andtalked with the scientists. I am doing an ongoing research project with oneof them, and with two university labs doing PCR.I doubt you'd find very many infectious disease or feline specialists rightnow who would recommend PCR for diagnosis of FeLV on a routine basis, andcertainly not from commercial labs. If you contemplate using a PCR lab fordiagnosis of FeLV, ask them to give you their test's sensitivity,specificity, negative and positive predictive values and compare thesenumbers to those published for the ELISA tests. You'll be surprised - firstsurprised if the lab even knows these statistics for their own test, andthen surprised at the comparison especially when the tests are evaluated byindependent researchers.The potential pi! tfalls of commercial labs doing PCR are well documented. Ihave direct, first-hand experience with what can happen when vets usecommercial labs for PCR diagnosis of infectious diseases. I have publishedon this topic in peer-reviewed journals in 2004 and presented my findings atveterinary conferences. I will be doing many lectures for vets around theU.S. this year on diagnosis of FeLV and FIV. I better not be dated!Dr. SusanChapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in:The CFA Complete Cat Bookhttp://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbookFeline Reproduction Manual:http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^Susan Little, DVMDiplomate ABVP (Feline)Bytown Cat HospitalOttawa, Canadahttp://catvet.homestead.com__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Rel! ease Date: 28/01/2005
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
In a message dated 1/31/2005 11:01:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lisa, Are you confusing this Dr. Susan with Dr. Susan Winn? Perhaps...and If I am I am COMPLETLY sorrybut I dont think so Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
New FELV-FIV vaccine?
My vet recently mentioned that there is a new vaccine about to be approved that is for FELV FIV I have my negs vaccinated for FELV but not for FIV as I had read someplace that it was not particularly effective, could cause some problems that cat would show + for FIV. My vet seemed to be happy with the new vaccine saying he did not like the old vaccine. To be honest he mentioned it on a day I was in with Big Boy was anxious to leave so I really didnt spend much time discussing it. My guys are not due for vaccination for several months but before he wants to use this new vaccine, I was wondering if anyone else had heard about this. Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: from Dr. Susan RE: PCR test and FeLV answer
Ann, I'm confused. Am I missing email transmissions? Where does the quote directly below, (beginning: "This reply from Kate"), come from, you, Dr. Susan, or someone else? Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This reply form Kate is actually FAR more closer to what I understood PCR to be...much more accurate as long as done correctly, and used more often in research...but either way..more accurate...and it tests the genetic materials for the cat as to see any infection at allI found (please no offense!!) Dr. Susan's answer to be dated.(as well as her article on WINN) Dated in what way? It is a mistake to assume that a new technique such as PCR is more accurate than exisiting methods until that has been confirmed. It turned out not to be more accurate when done by commercial labs for diagnosis of FIV, and work done at the University of Guelph suggests that PCR for FeLV may not be any better. So much depends on the lab and how their primers are designed, how the sample is collected, handled and shipped, and how the lab implements quality control. A lot of variables! I have visited commercial PCR labs and talked with the scientists. I am doing an ongoing research project with one of them, and with two university labs doing PCR. I doubt you'd find very many infectious disease or feline specialists right now who would recommend PCR for diagnosis of FeLV on a routine basis, and certainly not from commercial labs. If you contemplate using a PCR lab for diagnosis of FeLV, ask them to give you their test's sensitivity, specificity, negative and positive predictive values and compare these numbers to those published for the ELISA tests. You'll be surprised - first surprised if the lab even knows these statistics for their own test, and then surprised at the comparison especially when the tests are evaluated by independent researchers. The potential pitfalls of commercial labs doing PCR are well documented. I have direct, first-hand experience with what can happen when vets use commercial labs for PCR diagnosis of infectious diseases. I have published on this topic in peer-reviewed journals in 2004 and presented my findings at veterinary conferences. I will be doing many lectures for vets around the U.S. this year on diagnosis of FeLV and FIV. I better not be dated! Dr. Susan Chapter Author, A Home Veterinary Guide, in: The CFA Complete Cat Book http://www.cfainc.org/catalog/books.html#completecatbook Feline Reproduction Manual: http://catvet.homestead.com/ReproCD.html __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ Susan Little, DVM Diplomate ABVP (Feline) Bytown Cat Hospital Ottawa, Canada http://catvet.homestead.com __^^__^^__^^__^^__^^__^^ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Kathy, I know I am lucky, I just have had a bad expierence with it as I am sure others do, all diseases are bad no matter, what I sure as heck do not want to have to deal with FIP, knowing what I know now, it sounds just terrible to witness. Sorry for what you have been through. Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie, FeLV is a bad disease, but at least FeLV+ cats have a chance to live with it - sometimes for many years - in relative good health. I know of two that I read about in a Dr's Foster and Smith catalog in 2000 who were brothers who tested positive as kittens and were now (then) 20 and doing well (oddly enough, it came withindays of finding out that a kitten that I'd brought in for socialization and allowed to have run of the house for 6 weeks without being tested first was FeLV+. I found out because he got an URI that my guys had just gotten over and then picked up ringworm that my guys got over a month before he arrived. The ringworm overwhelmed his immune system and the URI ran rampant and was completely unaffected by antibiotics). There was also a cat in Vandalia, OH in 2002 who was 23 and looked like an 8 year old who had first tested positive at 9 weeks and also in occasional retests throughout his life. Although many cats die from F! eLV in 3 months to 3 years from infection, some do well much longer than that - and it's the ones who do who give me hope to keep helping them when I can. Redbud will have had FeLV for 5 yearsas of thisJune. The other 5 from the pre-FeLV days here are gone, but Redbud is still doing beautifully - and that gives me reason to hope. In 2002, I had FIP sweep through. With FIP, all cats die from it in anywhere from hours after beginning to show symptoms to maybe a year. A few carriers have lived for several years, but the few I've heard of who have also have been chronically ill all the time since they were exposed. Of the 3 I lost to FIP - Omaste had the wet form and lookedhealthy at noon when I went to run errands and go to the doctor, butwhen I got home at 4:30, he was collapsed on the floor, too weak to raise his head. Patchesfought off FeLV - having tested positive for exposure in 2000 and then negative at 3 and 6 months later- but he got FIP duringthe outbreak,and it went neurological a month later. Little Dillon was the first to show obvious symptoms at 3 weeks of age, but wasn't diagnosed for another 13 weeks. He went partially into remission with the use of depomedrol every month, but then it also went neurological in hi! m and he became incontinent, and a month later, he let me know he was ready to be done - when he was 8 months old. If I had to deal with one or the other of these diseases, I would much rather deal with FeLV. Once my guys who died from FIP got sick, their lives were pretty miserable. FIP attaches to the immune system and tricks it into thinking that an organ or system of the body is an invading organism, and the immune system attacks the body which leads to their death. FeLV can, and sometimes does,move fast, but usually, FeLV+'s can live fairly normal, reasonably happy, and pretty comfortable lives for a long time with it. With FIP, if you get more than a month or two with the sick one, you're extremely lucky. Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: My FeLV history [very long]
Belinda You have been through alot, and are a wonderful person because of it. I am still nervous about mixing but, I can just pray for the best. Thank you for sharing. CherieBelinda Sauro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I first became aware of FeLV, really became aware of it wasback in 1992.The story starts in 1984, I had a cat named Kiki, he wasindoor/outdoor. I was very stupid and naive about pet care andresponsibility. Kiki was not neutered and disappeared for about amonth, I checked the pound and neighborhood but couldn't find him. Idecided to get a kitten and keep him indoor only, into my life walkedSkeeter. I got Skeeter at 8 weeks of age, much smaller than his littermates, and he had an ulcer in his eye and lost his eye when it rupturedat about 6 weeks of age, I knew nobody else would take him so I did. Andbelieve it or not the very night I brought Skeeter home, Kiki came homeas if nothing had happened. He was skinny and very tired and sleepalot, he also had a patch of missing fur on his face and I took him tothe vet and he ! was diagnosed with ringworm. I wanted to keep him indooronly but he wasn't having it and about a month after he came home hewanted out, I decided to let him out and I never saw him again. Ibelieve he was sicker than the vet thought and went off and died. Thiswas my wake up call to responsible pet care, although I was still prettynaive. Skeeter as I said was indoor only, I got him neutered and whenhe was about 9 months old I decided to get him a playmate.Meet Teenye she was a tiny, very scared Man mix that I very soonrealized had been abused in her previous home, she was very skittish andyou couldn't pet her until you let her sniff your had, and you had tomove slowly around her or she would run away. She and Skeeter startedout hissing and growling at eanc other and he kept her trapped under thedresser for 3 days but then he decided to let her out and they becamefriends. Friends in Teenye's world meant she'd let him chase her aroundfor a while and then when she had enough she would hiss at him and swathim, play time was over. She also loved his grooming sessions, he'dhold her down and groom her for a long time, she always put up withthis. In 86 Frankie came into our lives, he was suppose to be 6 weeksold and his mother supposedly was killed by a car and he and his sisterhad been brought into the bar I was at that night and someone was goingto take both of them but decided to take only his sister so I took him.When I got him home it was immediately obvious he wasn't anywhere near 6weeks of age, he could barely walk, I figure he was maybe 3 or 4 weeksold, but he flourished and Skeeter had a real rough and tumble playmate(I think Teenye was a bit jealous).Then in 86, I moved and took my furkids with me and in 88 Mikie joinedus. He was the center of attention cat, he had to be the center ofattention. If you were petting anyone else Mikie wo! uld actually get inbetween you and the cat you were petting, sometimes this would earn hima swat, but it was understood, Mikie was needy and the others put upwith it for the most part!! By now Skeeter was no longer the runt ofanything he was a whopping 20 pounds, my gentle giant, the head cat thatruled with a very gentle paw. Everyone loved Skeeter, he was thepeacemaker and undisputed king. Frankie was a a very close behind him18 pounds of siamese lover, my boy, he was a mama's boy through andthrough. In 1990 I had moved again and Buddie joined the family, shewas a tiny little hellion, my orange and white spit-fire. Shedefinitely wasn't not thrilled with all her siblings and made it clearshe wouldn't put up with anything from any of them. She was more orless a loner and did things her way, it was understood she was part ofthe family, but on her terms only, and that included the humans. Shedidn't seek attention often and if! you tried to lavish it on her shewould let you know in no uncertain terms it wasn't appreciated and wouldrun away. When she did wasn't a attention she'd come to you, allow youto pet her and walk off when she had had enough, that was Buddie.All of my guys were indoor only, spayed and neutered and vaccinated, inthose days the vet I was seeing didn't offer a FeLV vaccine, and didn'ttest since my cats were all indoors, naively I thought this was OK, inmy ignorance it never dawned on me, they all had a life before me andcould have come to the family positive. The vet I used in those dayswas very old (in his seventies), and I don't think he was up on thelatest findings on FeLV, he never mentioned testing any new guys for itor vaccinating them for it, and I really had no clue about it, I hadheard of it but knew nothing about as far as what it was or what itcould do.All of Frankie's life he was a bit sickly, every year in ! December (sincehe was a baby) like clock work he would come down with a URI, usually hewould get over it on his own in a week or so, but there were a few yearsI would take him to the vet (a new one now
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Kathy, I know I am lucky, I just have had a bad expierence with it as I am sure others do, all diseases are bad no matter, what I sure as heck do not want to have to deal with FIP, knowing what I know now, it sounds just terrible to witness. Sorry for what you have been through. Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie, FeLV is a bad disease, but at least FeLV+ cats have a chance to live with it - sometimes for many years - in relative good health. I know of two that I read about in a Dr's Foster and Smith catalog in 2000 who were brothers who tested positive as kittens and were now (then) 20 and doing well (oddly enough, it came withindays of finding out that a kitten that I'd brought in for socialization and allowed to have run of the house for 6 weeks without being tested first was FeLV+. I found out because he got an URI that my guys had just gotten over and then picked up ringworm that my guys got over a month before he arrived. The ringworm overwhelmed his immune system and the URI ran rampant and was completely unaffected by antibiotics). There was also a cat in Vandalia, OH in 2002 who was 23 and looked like an 8 year old who had first tested positive at 9 weeks and also in occasional retests throughout his life. Although many cats die from F! eLV in 3 months to 3 years from infection, some do well much longer than that - and it's the ones who do who give me hope to keep helping them when I can. Redbud will have had FeLV for 5 yearsas of thisJune. The other 5 from the pre-FeLV days here are gone, but Redbud is still doing beautifully - and that gives me reason to hope. In 2002, I had FIP sweep through. With FIP, all cats die from it in anywhere from hours after beginning to show symptoms to maybe a year. A few carriers have lived for several years, but the few I've heard of who have also have been chronically ill all the time since they were exposed. Of the 3 I lost to FIP - Omaste had the wet form and lookedhealthy at noon when I went to run errands and go to the doctor, butwhen I got home at 4:30, he was collapsed on the floor, too weak to raise his head. Patchesfought off FeLV - having tested positive for exposure in 2000 and then negative at 3 and 6 months later- but he got FIP duringthe outbreak,and it went neurological a month later. Little Dillon was the first to show obvious symptoms at 3 weeks of age, but wasn't diagnosed for another 13 weeks. He went partially into remission with the use of depomedrol every month, but then it also went neurological in hi! m and he became incontinent, and a month later, he let me know he was ready to be done - when he was 8 months old. If I had to deal with one or the other of these diseases, I would much rather deal with FeLV. Once my guys who died from FIP got sick, their lives were pretty miserable. FIP attaches to the immune system and tricks it into thinking that an organ or system of the body is an invading organism, and the immune system attacks the body which leads to their death. FeLV can, and sometimes does,move fast, but usually, FeLV+'s can live fairly normal, reasonably happy, and pretty comfortable lives for a long time with it. With FIP, if you get more than a month or two with the sick one, you're extremely lucky. Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Thank you, I have had a few years to cope with it better. CherieFaye Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie,I am also sorry about your child. That is a terrible tragedy. That is said to be the worst tragedy a person can go through and I have no doubt it is.From: Cherie A Gabbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.netTo: felvtalk@vlists.netSubject: Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:38:41 -0800 (PST)MIME-Version: 1.0Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by mc1-f18.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:39:05 -0800Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0N7d5724660for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:05 -0600Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:04 -0600 (CST)Received:! (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j0N7d4424515for felvtalk-utils; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:04 -0600Received: from web81401.mail.yahoo.com (web81401.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.90])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0N7cqo24450for <FELVTALK@VLISTS.NET>; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:38:52 -0600Received: from [68.79.4.188] by web81401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:38:41 PSTX-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGkxfb5aGDo+b21FVxQwv8B365jxO8l7HM=Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection.Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No VirusSpam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.429, required 5,autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.13, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_40_50 0.04,HTML_MESSAGE 0.00)Precedence: listReturn-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2005 07:39:05.0300 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D803940:01C5011E]Thank yo! u, I am much better now :-)), takes some time to get over but, needless to say it is hard to loose anyone and pets and people in my book are one and the same.Thanks againCherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 1/22/2005 4:37:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago.CHERIE OMG how horrible..no wonder Snowball dieing like he did was so scary for youI am sorry about your little girl...Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguarIndy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel cross! Bennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
RE: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Title: Message Dear Cherie I just wanted to say, I'm so sorry about your daughter. I cannot imagine how that must have been for you. You are very brave abd strong to have come through it, and to still have so much compassion for other creatures. much love, Kerry -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cherie A GabbertSent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:07 AMTo: felvtalk@vlists.netSubject: Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? Thank you, I have had a few years to cope with it better. CherieFaye Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie,I am also sorry about your child. That is a terrible tragedy. That is said to be the worst tragedy a person can go through and I have no doubt it is.From: Cherie A Gabbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.netTo: felvtalk@vlists.netSubject: Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:38:41 -0800 (PST)MIME-Version: 1.0Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by mc1-f18.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:39:05 -0800Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0N7d5724660for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:05 -0600Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:04 -0600 (CST)Received:! (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j0N7d4424515for felvtalk-utils; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:04 -0600Received: from web81401.mail.yahoo.com (web81401.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.90])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0N7cqo24450for <FELVTALK@VLISTS.NET>; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:38:52 -0600Received: from [68.79.4.188] by web81401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:38:41 PSTX-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGkxfb5aGDo+b21FVxQwv8B365jxO8l7HM=Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection.Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No VirusSpam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.429, required 5,autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.13, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_40_50 0.04,HTML_MESSAGE 0.00)Precedence: listReturn-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2005 07:39:05.0300 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D803940:01C5011E]Thank yo! u, I am much better now :-)), takes some time to get over but, needless to say it is hard to loose anyone and pets and people in my book are one and the same.Thanks againCherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 1/22/2005 4:37:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago.CHERIE OMG how horrible..no wonder Snowball dieing like he did was so scary for youI am sorry about your little girl...Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguarIndy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel cross! Bennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? -- for Cherie
Sally, Do not fret my dear, no memories are stirred they are alive and buring bright every day of my life, I cope I get through and I go on. The sun will rise tomorrow, weather I am ready or not. Let's just say all dieases are horrid for our beloved pets or our beloved families, and you are right it could always be worse, and we should be thankful that it is not. I am happy for what I have and I am now more aware of my kitties and I will try not to let what happened to SNowball happen to another. FIP, FeLV, Distemper...how about we just find cures and then noone would have to go through any of that. The smells and the imagery you described give me the chills, that would be horrible to have to witness a helpless furrbaby go throughkids and animals, the innocents in our lives. Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Cherie...I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about what happened to your daughter, and after going through that kind of personal hell, I can understand why the manner in which Snowball passed was particularly excruciating for you. Her symptoms were not typical of what happens to kittys with FeLV, however. I've never heard of another FeLV kitty who had such a bleeding anomaly, but my experience with FeLV is not extensive. No matter what the illness, when you are in the middle of having to deal with a terminal situation, it is the WORST. I guess I was just trying to put things in perspective...whenever you think your situation seems unbearable, if you will but look a little further you can find someone else whose situation is a lot worse than your own. I am sure the people who experienced the torrential rains and ! mudslide in La Conchita, CA would tell you that was the worst possible experience to endure, but just two weeks before could be thankful they weren't vacationing in Thailand or Sri Lanka. Someone else mentioned that their idea of the WORST was feline distemper (Panleukopenia), which has got to be one of the most horrible ways I have ever witnessed for a cat to die, with the excruciatingly painful crouching over the water bowl yet unable to drink, the vomiting of frothy yellow bile and the horrible bloody end-stage diarrhea that smells like something dead...the poor cat is literally shedding the lining of its intestines. Dogs with parvo go through similar torture and have that same awful smell. Both are corona viruses. As it is most devastating for young kittens and takes them out so quickly, at least death usually comes quickly for them. But the afflicted dogs and cats are in obvious agony while it is ravaging their bodies. I've on! ly managed to save one kitten, at 10 weeks, from that horrid virus. With aggressive hospital treatment, the odds are somewhat better, I understand, though still not good. Thankfully the vaccine for the P-virus is effective and relatively safe, especially if administered in a single valent dose, and it is much less common than it once was. But it is easily transmitted and hard to eradicate, so if it breaks out in a shelter or unprotected multicat environment, it can wreak untold havoc and rapidly.I wasn't saying FeLV isn't an absolute nightmare, or that FIP was THE worst virus of all time, I was just saying that having dealt with FeLV and seen someone else and their kittys suffering through FIP and the frustration of there not being a test and no way to tell what you are dealing with in the early stages, worrying about just how contagious it really is, with the vaccine considered neither safe nor reliable, I'd choose deali! ng with FeLV over FIP. I've been there and done that and lost two precious furkids and my heart still aches, but I've also been on the other end with a miracle baby clearing the virus. And many kittys, for whatever reason, are lucky enough to become infected with FeLV and the virus never mutates to one of its more virulent forms and they go on to lead relatively normal lives for years. Most vets consider FIP to be 100% fatal, however. I've read that some holistic vets claim to have saved some cats from FIP if diagnosed early on, but still admit there is no way of knowing if the cat has truly been cured, or if it remains a carrier of the virus because there is no reliable testing for either the active virus or its latent state. You have to do a necropsy on a dead cat to know for certain. The testing we have for FeLV does seem to have its vagaries, but it is less of a crapshoot than for FIP.Guess I should have kept my philosophi! cal musings to myself...I did not mean to stir up painful memories for others or start a debate. My apologies. I agree that all the serious viruses which can kill our beloved furkids are something we wish no one had to deal with. I, for one, am looking forward to pigging out on cheesecake with the rest of you before I cross over to be reunited with my furkids who have become angels.Sally in San JoseSally in San JoseCertainly
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? -- for Cherie
Tonya, Regretfully you live and learn. Thank you but, strong person I would have to say no, I was a wreck at both points in my life. Again thank you for the thoughts though. Cheriecatatonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cherie, I, too am so sorry to hear about what you went through losing your daughter. You are obviously a very strong person to survive that and still have the wonderful attitude you have toward saving pets and your dealings with your son. tonya[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Cherie...I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about what happened to your daughter, and after going through that kind of personal hell, I can understand why the manner in which Snowball passed was particularly excruciating for you. Her symptoms were not typical of what happens to kittys with FeLV, however. I've never heard of another FeLV kitty who had such a bleeding anomaly, but my experience with FeLV is not extensive. No matter what the illness, when you are in the middle of having to deal with a terminal situation, it is the WORST. I guess I was just trying to put things in perspective...whenever you think your situation seems unbearable, if you will but look a little further you can find someone else whose situation is a lot worse than your own. I am sure the people who experienced the torrential rains and ! mudslide in La Conchita, CA would tell you that was the worst possible experience to endure, but just two weeks before could be thankful they weren't vacationing in Thailand or Sri Lanka. Someone else mentioned that their idea of the WORST was feline distemper (Panleukopenia), which has got to be one of the most horrible ways I have ever witnessed for a cat to die, with the excruciatingly painful crouching over the water bowl yet unable to drink, the vomiting of frothy yellow bile and the horrible bloody end-stage diarrhea that smells like something dead...the poor cat is literally shedding the lining of its intestines. Dogs with parvo go through similar torture and have that same awful smell. Both are corona viruses. As it is most devastating for young kittens and takes them out so quickly, at least death usually comes quickly for them. But the afflicted dogs and cats are in obvious agony while it is ravaging their bodies! . I've on! ly managed to save one kitten, at 10 weeks, from that horrid virus. With aggressive hospital treatment, the odds are somewhat better, I understand, though still not good. Thankfully the vaccine for the P-virus is effective and relatively safe, especially if administered in a single valent dose, and it is much less common than it once was. But it is easily transmitted and hard to eradicate, so if it breaks out in a shelter or unprotected multicat environment, it can wreak untold havoc and rapidly.I wasn't saying FeLV isn't an absolute nightmare, or that FIP was THE worst virus of all time, I was just saying that having dealt with FeLV and seen someone else and their kittys suffering through FIP and the frustration of there not being a test and no way to tell what you are dealing with in the early stages, worrying about just how contagious it really is, with the vaccine considered neither safe nor reliable, I'd choos! e deali! ng with FeLV over FIP. I've been there and done that and lost two precious furkids and my heart still aches, but I've also been on the other end with a miracle baby clearing the virus. And many kittys, for whatever reason, are lucky enough to become infected with FeLV and the virus never mutates to one of its more virulent forms and they go on to lead relatively normal lives for years. Most vets consider FIP to be 100% fatal, however. I've read that some holistic vets claim to have saved some cats from FIP if diagnosed early on, but still admit there is no way of knowing if the cat has truly been cured, or if it remains a carrier of the virus because there is no reliable testing for either the active virus or its latent state. You have to do a necropsy on a dead cat to know for certain. The testing we have for FeLV does seem to have its vagaries, but it is less of a crapshoot than for FIP.Guess I should have kept my ph! ilosophi! cal musings to myself...I did not mean to stir up painful memories for others or start a debate. My apologies. I agree that all the serious viruses which can kill our beloved furkids are something we wish no one had to deal with. I, for one, am looking forward to pigging out on cheesecake with the rest of you before I cross over to be reunited with my furkids who have become angels.Sally in San JoseSally in San JoseCertainly
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? -- for Melissa
Dear Melissa... If you had asked me in May '03 after I lost my first FeLV+ kitten at 8 mos., I would have told you I could not imagine anything worse, and my heart still aches for my precious and brave little Purrsia. I can also tell you that without the info and support I received from becoming a member of this list, I don't know how I would have coped because I sure wasn't getting much info or encouragement from any of the vets I talked to. Purrsia's playmate, Angel Eyes, subsequently tested positive and it seemed she would be one of the lucky ones who could live with the virus long term, then she suddenly crashed and I lost her at 16 months. After going through that heartbreak, twice, how or why would anyone in their right mind be willing to do this again?? As others have noticed and mentioned, there was something incredibly special about those kittys. I'd been rescuing kittys for almost 17 years and had never had to deal with FeLV. I understand now how incredibly lucky I had been all those years. Perhaps these ill-fated kittys know their lives with us will be short and because we take them in and don't give up but love them just the same, they are determined to make their time with us as meaningful as possible. Through caring for those two kittens, even though I lost them, I learned a lot and it inspired me to try and learn MORE so that I might be able to better help other such ill-fated kittys that come into my care. For me to just give up and walk away because it hurt so much to lose those precious furkids and because dealing with FeLV is both frustrating and agonizing at times, would have been a waste of the lessons those two kitty souls gave their lives to teach me. There are many people who are kind hearted enough to rescue homeless kittys, foster them and find loving forever homes to adopt them. But there are so few places that an FeLV+ kitty can go, too few people willing to take them in. I've learned how to care for cats with FeLV and I've experienced the worst in losing them...it can't get any worse. I don't have the $$ resources to go to extreme measures on their behalf as some people might, but it would seem that providing a healthy, natural diet, immune support and keeping their lives as stress free as possible are about all we can really do for now to try and keep them stable. We have no control over their genetic inheritance or whether or not the FeLV-A which infects all kittys who test positive will mutate to one of the more virulent subgroups B, C or B+C. Yes, there is always that knot at the bottom of my heart waiting for the other shoe to drop, and hoping it won't. But as Karolyn so aptly put it in explaining why she takes in only positive kittys now, and when one passes that makes room for another ill-fated kitty soul who might otherwise have no place to go and be PTS, all we can do is LOVE THEM ONE DAY AT A TIME. It may be for just weeks, or months or if we are lucky for many years. Surely these kittys are just as deserving of being loved and cared for as cats which are not so afflicted. I now have three positives among my 20 feline residents and if I could get all my healthy rescues adopted, I would be able to take in more positive kittys. I've found that for what these kittys take in terms of extra care and meds, they give so much more in return. If I can help other kittys who may not otherwise have a chance for any kind of life, that is the legacy of Purrsia and Angel Eyes who will always have a very special place in my heart. I've learned so much since joining this talklist and I am determined to keep on learning. One of these days maybe I'll have learned enough to write a book to help dispell some of the misinformation and enlighten others about what should be widely well-known about the disease. Perhaps I can enlighten others to the fact that for a cat to be FeLV+ should not be an automatic death sentence and cause to discard an otherwise loved and loving pet. And of course we are all praying that eventually a cure will be found, or in the least a reliable treatment that can keep infected kittys stable and prevent the virus from mutating. Bring on that cheesecake! Sally in San Jose
Re: FELV+ Kitty
Where is Ginger located? Sally in San Jose
Re: FELV+ Kitty
She is in Massachusetts, We would be glad to pay for transportation to get this little one to a forever home. It breaks my heart to think she is living alone, she gets alot of attention but living most of the time in a cag is not a good thinng for her. Any help anyone can give her would be greatly appreciated. She can bew seen at noah.petfinder.com. Thank you Linda
Re: FELV+ Kitty
Tonya..where is the kitty has anyone contacted the Marley Fund here in NC? Give me the most info you can about the kitty and a pic..I will send it to Joy... Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: FELV+ Kitty
In a message dated 1/22/2005 6:55:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am still looking for a placement for Ginger, she is a 16 week old orange kitten that is FELV+, she is in a foster home but in a cage and we really need to place her as it is so unfair to have her in a cage. Can anyone help? Linda where are you.. and I need more info on her please Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: FELV+ Kitty
Anyone that can help is more than welcome to call me at 508-821-3654, Thank you to everyone that is trying to help Ginger. Linda B
Re: FELV+ Kitty
I'm in Arkansas, and I sure hope someone in Mass. area can help! Gloria At 12:22 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote: Anyone that can help is more than welcome to call me at 508-821-3654, Thank you to everyone that is trying to help Ginger. Linda B
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Cherie, I am also sorry about your child. That is a terrible tragedy. That is said to be the worst tragedy a person can go through and I have no doubt it is. From: Cherie A Gabbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.net To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:38:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by mc1-f18.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:39:05 -0800 Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0N7d5724660for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:05 -0600 Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j0N7d4424515for felvtalk-utils; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:39:04 -0600 Received: from web81401.mail.yahoo.com (web81401.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.90])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0N7cqo24450for felvtalk@vlists.net; Sun, 23 Jan 2005 01:38:52 -0600 Received: from [68.79.4.188] by web81401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:38:41 PST X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGkxfb5aGDo+b21FVxQwv8B365jxO8l7HM= Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection. Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No Virus Spam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.429, required 5,autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.13, BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_40_50 0.04,HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) Precedence: list Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2005 07:39:05.0300 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D803940:01C5011E] Thank you, I am much better now :-)), takes some time to get over but, needless to say it is hard to loose anyone and pets and people in my book are one and the same. Thanks again Cherie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/22/2005 4:37:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago. CHERIE OMG how horrible..no wonder Snowball dieing like he did was so scary for youI am sorry about your little girl... Lisa and fur-brats Akira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESS Lance- Mini wire haired dashchund Bow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel cross Bennie Bird-- Vampire cockatiel Anza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
My FeLV history [very long]
When I first became aware of FeLV, really became aware of it was back in 1992. The story starts in 1984, I had a cat named Kiki, he was indoor/outdoor. I was very stupid and naive about pet care and responsibility. Kiki was not neutered and disappeared for about a month, I checked the pound and neighborhood but couldn't find him. I decided to get a kitten and keep him indoor only, into my life walked Skeeter. I got Skeeter at 8 weeks of age, much smaller than his litter mates, and he had an ulcer in his eye and lost his eye when it ruptured at about 6 weeks of age, I knew nobody else would take him so I did. And believe it or not the very night I brought Skeeter home, Kiki came home as if nothing had happened. He was skinny and very tired and sleep alot, he also had a patch of missing fur on his face and I took him to the vet and he was diagnosed with ringworm. I wanted to keep him indoor only but he wasn't having it and about a month after he came home he wanted out, I decided to let him out and I never saw him again. I believe he was sicker than the vet thought and went off and died. This was my wake up call to responsible pet care, although I was still pretty naive. Skeeter as I said was indoor only, I got him neutered and when he was about 9 months old I decided to get him a playmate. Meet Teenye she was a tiny, very scared Man mix that I very soon realized had been abused in her previous home, she was very skittish and you couldn't pet her until you let her sniff your had, and you had to move slowly around her or she would run away. She and Skeeter started out hissing and growling at eanc other and he kept her trapped under the dresser for 3 days but then he decided to let her out and they became friends. Friends in Teenye's world meant she'd let him chase her around for a while and then when she had enough she would hiss at him and swat him, play time was over. She also loved his grooming sessions, he'd hold her down and groom her for a long time, she always put up with this. In 86 Frankie came into our lives, he was suppose to be 6 weeks old and his mother supposedly was killed by a car and he and his sister had been brought into the bar I was at that night and someone was going to take both of them but decided to take only his sister so I took him. When I got him home it was immediately obvious he wasn't anywhere near 6 weeks of age, he could barely walk, I figure he was maybe 3 or 4 weeks old, but he flourished and Skeeter had a real rough and tumble playmate (I think Teenye was a bit jealous). Then in 86, I moved and took my furkids with me and in 88 Mikie joined us. He was the center of attention cat, he had to be the center of attention. If you were petting anyone else Mikie would actually get in between you and the cat you were petting, sometimes this would earn him a swat, but it was understood, Mikie was needy and the others put up with it for the most part!! By now Skeeter was no longer the runt of anything he was a whopping 20 pounds, my gentle giant, the head cat that ruled with a very gentle paw. Everyone loved Skeeter, he was the peacemaker and undisputed king. Frankie was a a very close behind him 18 pounds of siamese lover, my boy, he was a mama's boy through and through. In 1990 I had moved again and Buddie joined the family, she was a tiny little hellion, my orange and white spit-fire. She definitely wasn't not thrilled with all her siblings and made it clear she wouldn't put up with anything from any of them. She was more or less a loner and did things her way, it was understood she was part of the family, but on her terms only, and that included the humans. She didn't seek attention often and if you tried to lavish it on her she would let you know in no uncertain terms it wasn't appreciated and would run away. When she did wasn't a attention she'd come to you, allow you to pet her and walk off when she had had enough, that was Buddie. All of my guys were indoor only, spayed and neutered and vaccinated, in those days the vet I was seeing didn't offer a FeLV vaccine, and didn't test since my cats were all indoors, naively I thought this was OK, in my ignorance it never dawned on me, they all had a life before me and could have come to the family positive. The vet I used in those days was very old (in his seventies), and I don't think he was up on the latest findings on FeLV, he never mentioned testing any new guys for it or vaccinating them for it, and I really had no clue about it, I had heard of it but knew nothing about as far as what it was or what it could do. All of Frankie's life he was a bit sickly, every year in December (since he was a baby) like clock work he would come down with a URI, usually he would get over it on his own in a week or so, but there were a few years I would take him to the vet (a new one now), and she would ask if they could test him for FeLV, I would say no, he is indoor only how could he get it? I thinking all of my
Re: FELV+ Kitty
The cat is in Athens, Ga. I'll send you a pic as soon as I get one. Thanks!!! t[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tonya..where is the kitty has anyone contacted the Marley Fund here in NC? Give me the most info you can about the kitty and a pic..I will send it to Joy... Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: My FeLV history [very long]
An old friend of mine, years ago, had basically the same situation. They didn't give leukemia vaccinations back then. They had 6 cats. Brought home one with it and lost 4 of the 6 original cats who had never been vaccinated. The 2 that lived were never vaccinated either. Now with the vaccines though, it's very rare I hear of anything like that happening. Thank God! tBelinda Sauro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I first became aware of FeLV, really became aware of it wasback in 1992.The story starts in 1984, I had a cat named Kiki, he wasindoor/outdoor. I was very stupid and naive about pet care andresponsibility. Kiki was not neutered and disappeared for about amonth, I checked the pound and neighborhood but couldn't find him. Idecided to get a kitten and keep him indoor only, into my life walkedSkeeter. I got Skeeter at 8 weeks of age, much smaller than his littermates, and he had an ulcer in his eye and lost his eye when it rupturedat about 6 weeks of age, I knew nobody else would take him so I did. Andbelieve it or not the very night I brought Skeeter home, Kiki came homeas if nothing had happened. He was skinny and very tired and sleepalot, he also had a patch of missing fur on his face and I took him tothe vet and he ! was diagnosed with ringworm. I wanted to keep him indooronly but he wasn't having it and about a month after he came home hewanted out, I decided to let him out and I never saw him again. Ibelieve he was sicker than the vet thought and went off and died. Thiswas my wake up call to responsible pet care, although I was still prettynaive. Skeeter as I said was indoor only, I got him neutered and whenhe was about 9 months old I decided to get him a playmate.Meet Teenye she was a tiny, very scared Man mix that I very soonrealized had been abused in her previous home, she was very skittish andyou couldn't pet her until you let her sniff your had, and you had tomove slowly around her or she would run away. She and Skeeter startedout hissing and growling at eanc other and he kept her trapped under thedresser for 3 days but then he decided to let her out and they becamefriends. Friends in Teenye's world meant she'd let him chase her aroundfor a while and then when she had enough she would hiss at him and swathim, play time was over. She also loved his grooming sessions, he'dhold her down and groom her for a long time, she always put up withthis. In 86 Frankie came into our lives, he was suppose to be 6 weeksold and his mother supposedly was killed by a car and he and his sisterhad been brought into the bar I was at that night and someone was goingto take both of them but decided to take only his sister so I took him.When I got him home it was immediately obvious he wasn't anywhere near 6weeks of age, he could barely walk, I figure he was maybe 3 or 4 weeksold, but he flourished and Skeeter had a real rough and tumble playmate(I think Teenye was a bit jealous).Then in 86, I moved and took my furkids with me and in 88 Mikie joinedus. He was the center of attention cat, he had to be the center ofattention. If you were petting anyone else Mikie wo! uld actually get inbetween you and the cat you were petting, sometimes this would earn hima swat, but it was understood, Mikie was needy and the others put upwith it for the most part!! By now Skeeter was no longer the runt ofanything he was a whopping 20 pounds, my gentle giant, the head cat thatruled with a very gentle paw. Everyone loved Skeeter, he was thepeacemaker and undisputed king. Frankie was a a very close behind him18 pounds of siamese lover, my boy, he was a mama's boy through andthrough. In 1990 I had moved again and Buddie joined the family, shewas a tiny little hellion, my orange and white spit-fire. Shedefinitely wasn't not thrilled with all her siblings and made it clearshe wouldn't put up with anything from any of them. She was more orless a loner and did things her way, it was understood she was part ofthe family, but on her terms only, and that included the humans. Shedidn't seek attention often and if! you tried to lavish it on her shewould let you know in no uncertain terms it wasn't appreciated and wouldrun away. When she did wasn't a attention she'd come to you, allow youto pet her and walk off when she had had enough, that was Buddie.All of my guys were indoor only, spayed and neutered and vaccinated, inthose days the vet I was seeing didn't offer a FeLV vaccine, and didn'ttest since my cats were all indoors, naively I thought this was OK, inmy ignorance it never dawned on me, they all had a life before me andcould have come to the family positive. The vet I used in those dayswas very old (in his seventies), and I don't think he was up on thelatest findings on FeLV, he never mentioned testing any new guys for itor vaccinating them for it, and I really had no clue about it, I hadheard of it but knew nothing about as far as what it was or what itcould do.All of Frankie's life he was a bit sickly, every year in ! December
RE: My FeLV history [very long]
I was very stupid and naive about pet care and responsibility. As we were all! Growing up, we always had a stray or two who found us--they were all indoor/outdoor, maybe got shots once if they were neutered but certainly never saw a vet on a regular basis. Some met with accidents, one was poisened by a terrible neighbor, three lived to their twenties. And one died of FELV in the late '80s. He had never been tested, was the quintessential 'tomcat'--ruled the entire neighborhood. He developed symptoms died quickly after my parents left him in the care of a neighbor for a few weeks--unfortunately, neighbor didn't do what they had agreed to it was probably the first time he had not been with regular food, indoor at night, etc. he was sick when they got back. Thing is he spent many months over the last few years of his life with me and an unvaccinated (for FELV) cat when my parents traveled. He probably harbored the virus his whole life and yet despite long exposure, my cat lived to 21! So who knows why some get it and other don't! To believe the mis-information out there still even today about FeLV, I would have to believe my luck is phenomenal and I doubt that. Couldn't agree with you more about the misinformation that's out there! And I don't think its luck they all thrived and lived so long, I think its good care and a warm safe loving home--I would never underestimate that! Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Belinda Sauro Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 2:20 PM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: My FeLV history [very long] When I first became aware of FeLV, really became aware of it was back in 1992. The story starts in 1984, I had a cat named Kiki, he was indoor/outdoor. I was very stupid and naive about pet care and responsibility. Kiki was not neutered and disappeared for about a month, I checked the pound and neighborhood but couldn't find him. I decided to get a kitten and keep him indoor only, into my life walked Skeeter. I got Skeeter at 8 weeks of age, much smaller than his litter mates, and he had an ulcer in his eye and lost his eye when it ruptured at about 6 weeks of age, I knew nobody else would take him so I did. And believe it or not the very night I brought Skeeter home, Kiki came home as if nothing had happened. He was skinny and very tired and sleep alot, he also had a patch of missing fur on his face and I took him to the vet and he was diagnosed with ringworm. I wanted to keep him indoor only but he wasn't having it and about a month after he came home he wanted out, I decided to let him out and I never saw him again. I believe he was sicker than the vet thought and went off and died. This was my wake up call to responsible pet care, although I was still pretty naive. Skeeter as I said was indoor only, I got him neutered and when he was about 9 months old I decided to get him a playmate. Meet Teenye she was a tiny, very scared Man mix that I very soon realized had been abused in her previous home, she was very skittish and you couldn't pet her until you let her sniff your had, and you had to move slowly around her or she would run away. She and Skeeter started out hissing and growling at eanc other and he kept her trapped under the dresser for 3 days but then he decided to let her out and they became friends. Friends in Teenye's world meant she'd let him chase her around for a while and then when she had enough she would hiss at him and swat him, play time was over. She also loved his grooming sessions, he'd hold her down and groom her for a long time, she always put up with this. In 86 Frankie came into our lives, he was suppose to be 6 weeks old and his mother supposedly was killed by a car and he and his sister had been brought into the bar I was at that night and someone was going to take both of them but decided to take only his sister so I took him. When I got him home it was immediately obvious he wasn't anywhere near 6 weeks of age, he could barely walk, I figure he was maybe 3 or 4 weeks old, but he flourished and Skeeter had a real rough and tumble playmate (I think Teenye was a bit jealous). Then in 86, I moved and took my furkids with me and in 88 Mikie joined us. He was the center of attention cat, he had to be the center of attention. If you were petting anyone else Mikie would actually get in between you and the cat you were petting, sometimes this would earn him a swat, but it was understood, Mikie was needy and the others put up with it for the most part!! By now Skeeter was no longer the runt of anything he was a whopping 20 pounds, my gentle giant, the head cat that ruled with a very gentle paw. Everyone loved Skeeter, he was the peacemaker and undisputed king. Frankie was a a very close behind him 18 pounds of siamese lover, my boy, he was a mama's boy through and through. In 1990 I had moved again and Buddie joined the family, she was a tiny
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Cherie, FeLV is a bad disease, but at least FeLV+ cats have a chance to live with it - sometimes for many years - in relative good health. I know of two that I read about in a Dr's Foster and Smith catalog in 2000 who were brothers who tested positive as kittens and were now (then) 20 and doing well (oddly enough, it came withindays of finding out that a kitten that I'd brought in for socialization and allowed to have run of the house for 6 weeks without being tested first was FeLV+. I found out because he got an URI that my guys had just gotten over and then picked up ringworm that my guys got over a month before he arrived. The ringworm overwhelmed his immune system and the URI ran rampant and was completely unaffected by antibiotics). There was also a cat in Vandalia, OH in 2002 who was 23 and looked like an 8 year old who had first tested positive at 9 weeks and also in occasional retests throughout his life. Although many cats die from FeLV in 3 months to 3 years from infection, some do well much longer than that - and it's the ones who do who give me hope to keep helping them when I can. Redbud will have had FeLV for 5 yearsas of thisJune. The other 5 from the pre-FeLV days here are gone, but Redbud is still doing beautifully - and that gives me reason to hope. In 2002, I had FIP sweep through. With FIP, all cats die from it in anywhere from hours after beginning to show symptoms to maybe a year. A few carriers have lived for several years, but the few I've heard of who have also have been chronically ill all the time since they were exposed. Of the 3 I lost to FIP - Omaste had the wet form and lookedhealthy at noon when I went to run errands and go to the doctor, butwhen I got home at 4:30, he was collapsed on the floor, too weak to raise his head. Patchesfought off FeLV - having tested positive for exposure in 2000 and then negative at 3 and 6 months later- but he got FIP duringthe outbreak,and it went neurological a month later. Little Dillon was the first to show obvious symptoms at 3 weeks of age, but wasn't diagnosed for another 13 weeks. He went partially into remission with the use of depomedrol every month, but then it also went neurological in him and he became incontinent, and a month later, he let me know he was ready to be done - when he was 8 months old. If I had to deal with one or the other of these diseases, I would much rather deal with FeLV. Once my guys who died from FIP got sick, their lives were pretty miserable. FIP attaches to the immune system and tricks it into thinking that an organ or system of the body is an invading organism, and the immune system attacks the body which leads to their death. FeLV can, and sometimes does,move fast, but usually, FeLV+'s can live fairly normal, reasonably happy, and pretty comfortable lives for a long time with it. With FIP, if you get more than a month or two with the sick one, you're extremely lucky. Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Dear Cherie: While FeLV is a horrid disease to deal with, with so few givens and so many unanswered questions, there ARE worse things to deal with. I haven't had any personal experience dealing with it, but if you were to ask listmember Denise Uriarte here in San Jose, I think she will tell you that FIP is even worse to deal with than FeLV. She has dealt with both. Kittys who develop FIP (a mutated form of the corona virus) may exhibit none to mild symptoms in the early stages on infection, and that is when they are infectious to other cats. By the time they are actively showing classic symptoms of the disease, they are said to be no longer contagious. And some cats can evidently be latent carriers and never show symptoms, themselves. There is NO TEST which can positively tell you a cat has FIP...the only way to absolutely confirm it is through necropsy. A high corona titer may be an indication, but not absolutely as a cat exposed to it but not becoming infected may have a high antibody titer. There are two forms, the dry and wet form. With the wet form there is excessive buildup of a stringy proteinaceous fluid in the abdomen or chest and cats with this form succumb rather quickly. With the dry form, a cat can linger for several months and in the end stages there can be neurological damage which causes seizures and the cat may be disoriented and crashing into walls in its distress. Not a pretty sight to observe. Just as with there being no explanation as to why the FeLV virus mutates into one of its more virulent subgroups in some cats and not others, I've never seen an explanation as to why the corona virus mutates to FIP in some cats, but not others. Immuno-compromised cats, such as those with FeLV are said to be more suseceptible. In '03, Denise lost two kittens from a litter of three FeLV+ kittens to FIP, and three otherwise healthy older kittens. Two were feral from a mom whose previous littter had all perished and we have hypothesized she may be a carrier. Luckily this mom cat who had long evaded being trapped and produced litter after litter of kittens, has finally been trapped and spayed. After what I saw Denise go through with those kittys, I would take an FeLV+ kitty over that any day. Sally in San Jose
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
They are all nasty. I have a friend who lost 8 kittens to distemper and that is an ugly ugly one. I think the real message is that illness can be without dignity and unfair. It can be ugly and painful, for the patient as well as bystanders. I've been wondering over the last month whether I could do this again, and my answer is honestly that I don't know. If I had better resources, the support of a rescue behind me...maybe? If there were no other choice, maybe. Would I voluntarily put myself through the grief and worry...I don't know. I don't know if I am strong enough. It sounds so selfish. The best we can do is continue to support each other and lobby for research, better treatments, and ultimately a cure. We can do our best to give supportive care to our feline companions and afford them a bit of dignity and mercy in death. Melissa in NJ
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Point taken Sally, As far as I can tell from my personal stand point, I think FeLV is the worst, but I am sure we can debate on bad or worse all day. There are more vicious diseases out there, as with everything. Luckily and not so luckily, my expierence with this is limited, I just can tell you watching a kitty bleed to death is very hard to do. Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago. Watching and being with a dieing animal is hard no matter what the disease, and we all can attest to it, so I guess it does not matter better or worse sicknesses it is just a shame there has to be any. Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Cherie:While FeLV is a horrid disease to deal with, with so few givens and so many unanswered questions, there ARE worse things to deal with. I haven't had any personal experience dealing with it, but if you were to ask listmember Denise Uriarte here in San Jose, I think she will tell you that FIP is even worse to deal with than FeLV. She has dealt with both.Kittys who develop FIP (a mutated form of the corona virus) may exhibit none to mild symptoms in the early stages on infection, and that is when they are infectious to other cats. By the time they are actively showing classic symptoms of the disease, they are said to be no longer contagious. And some cats can evidently be latent carriers and never show symptoms, themselves. There is NO TEST which can positively tell you a cat has FIP...the only way to absolutely! confirm it is through necropsy. A high corona titer may be an indication, but not absolutely as a cat exposed to it but not becoming infected may have a high antibody titer. There are two forms, the dry and wet form. With the wet form there is excessive buildup of a stringy proteinaceous fluid in the abdomen or chest and cats with this form succumb rather quickly. With the dry form, a cat can linger for several months and in the end stages there can be neurological damage which causes seizures and the cat may be disoriented and crashing into walls in its distress. Not a pretty sight to observe. Just as with there being no explanation as to why the FeLV virus mutates into one of its more virulent subgroups in some cats and not others, I've never seen an explanation as to why the corona virus mutates to FIP in some cats, but not others. Immuno-compromised cats, such as those with FeLV are said to be more suseceptible.In '03, Den! ise lost two kittens from a litter of three FeLV+ kittens to FIP, and three otherwise healthy "older" kittens. Two were feral from a mom whose previous littter had all perished and we have hypothesized she may be a carrier. Luckily this mom cat who had long evaded being trapped and produced litter after litter of kittens, has finally been trapped and spayed.After what I saw Denise go through with those kittys, I would take an FeLV+ kitty over that any day.Sally in San Jose
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Around here, FIP is not that common but I have no doubt it is awful. For me, this has been the worst experience I have had. The psychological torment. I love these cats so much. I cannot explain it to anyone. I love all of my pets but Simba and the twins have a special place in my heart. Their loss is just an unbearable concept to me. I never know when or if the shoe is going to drop. Every sniffle could be the beginning of the end. I have never gone through anything like this. Plus, with the twins having been kittens, my vets really thought their demise would show up rather soon after the first exposure. Plus, when Tigger was diagnosed, I did not see it coming. All I knew is that he threw up the night before. I thought maybe he had eaten something that did not agree with him. It was a very stunning shock. He went down so fast. Plus, he had tested negative and had been vaccinated so I just didn't imagine anything like this. From: Cherie A Gabbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.net To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by MC6-F38.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:45 -0800 Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0MLaiu29283for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:44 -0600 Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j0MLah929189for felvtalk-utils; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:43 -0600 Received: from web81401.mail.yahoo.com (web81401.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.90])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0MLaZo29118for felvtalk@vlists.net; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:35 -0600 Received: from [68.20.7.242] by web81401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 PST X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jFJ3Rrhalozsq8RRoZBqSWIaP3tgLlXn/I= Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection. Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No Virus Spam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.379, required 5, AWL -0.03,BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_10_20 0.25, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00) Precedence: list Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jan 2005 21:36:45.0490 (UTC) FILETIME=[787ED920:01C500CA] Point taken Sally, As far as I can tell from my personal stand point, I think FeLV is the worst, but I am sure we can debate on bad or worse all day. There are more vicious diseases out there, as with everything. Luckily and not so luckily, my expierence with this is limited, I just can tell you watching a kitty bleed to death is very hard to do. Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago. Watching and being with a dieing animal is hard no matter what the disease, and we all can attest to it, so I guess it does not matter better or worse sicknesses it is just a shame there has to be any. Cherie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Cherie: While FeLV is a horrid disease to deal with, with so few givens and so many unanswered questions, there ARE worse things to deal with. I haven't had any personal experience dealing with it, but if you were to ask listmember Denise Uriarte here in San Jose, I think she will tell you that FIP is even worse to deal with than FeLV. She has dealt with both. Kittys who develop FIP (a mutated form of the corona virus) may exhibit none to mild symptoms in the early stages on infection, and that is when they are infectious to other cats. By the time they are actively showing classic symptoms of the disease, they are said to be no longer contagious. And some cats can evidently be latent carriers and never show symptoms, themselves. There is NO TEST which can positively tell you a cat has FIP...the only way to absolutely confirm it is through necropsy. A high corona titer may be an indication, but not absolutely as a cat exposed to it but not becoming infected may have a high antibody titer. There are two forms, the dry and wet form. With the wet form there is excessive buildup of a stringy proteinaceous fluid in the abdomen or chest and cats with this form succumb rather quickly. With the dry form, a cat can linger for several months and in the end stages there can be neurological damage which causes seizures and the cat may be disoriented and crashing into walls in its distress. Not a pretty sight to observe. Just as with there being no explanation as to why the FeLV virus mutates into one of its more virulent subgroups in some cats and not others, I've never seen an explanation as to why the corona virus mutates to FIP in some cats, but not others. Immuno-compromised cats, such as those with FeLV are said to be more suseceptible. In '03, Denise lost two kittens from
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
They all are special and we love them all. All sicknesses are hard.Faye Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Around here, FIP is not that common but I have no doubt it is awful. For me, this has been the worst experience I have had. The psychological torment. I love these cats so much. I cannot explain it to anyone. I love all of my pets but Simba and the twins have a special place in my heart. Their loss is just an unbearable concept to me. I never know when or if the shoe is going to drop. Every sniffle could be the beginning of the end. I have never gone through anything like this. Plus, with the twins having been kittens, my vets really thought their demise would show up rather soon after the first exposure. Plus, when Tigger was diagnosed, I did not see it coming. All I knew is that he threw up the night before. I thought maybe he had eaten something that did not agree with him. It was a very stunning shock. He went down so fast. Plus! , he had tested negative and had been vaccinated so I just didn't imagine anything like this.From: Cherie A Gabbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: felvtalk@vlists.netTo: felvtalk@vlists.netSubject: Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 -0800 (PST)MIME-Version: 1.0Received: from vlists.net ([208.186.168.62]) by MC6-F38.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:45 -0800Received: from localhost ([EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0MLaiu29283for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:44 -0600Received: by vps.vlists.net (TLB v0.11a (1.26 tibbs 1998/09/22 04:41:41)); Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:43 -0600 (CST)Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id j0MLah929189for felvtalk-utils; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:43 -0600Received: from web81401.mail.yahoo.com (web81401.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.90])by vlists.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id j0MLaZo29118for <FELVTALK@VLISTS.NET>; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:36:35 -0600Received: from [68.20.7.242] by web81401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:36:19 PSTX-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jFJ3Rrhalozsq8RRoZBqSWIaP3tgLlXn/I=Virus-Information: Virus Scanned By VLists.Net For Your Protection.Virus-Status: VLists.Net Found No VirusSpam-Status: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-2.379, required 5, AWL -0.03,BAYES_00 -2.60, HTML_10_20 0.25, HTML_MESSAGE 0.00)Precedence: listReturn-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jan 2005 21:36:45.0490 (UTC) FILETIME=[787ED920:01C500CA]Point taken Sally,As far as I can tell from my personal stand point, I think FeLV is the worst, but I am sure we can debate on bad or worse all day. There are more vici! ous diseases out there, as with everything.Luckily and not so luckily, my expierence with this is limited, I just can tell you watching a kitty bleed to death is very hard to do. Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago.Watching and being with a dieing animal is hard no matter what the disease, and we all can attest to it, so I guess it does not matter better or worse sicknesses it is just a shame there has to be any.Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Dear Cherie:While FeLV is a horrid disease to deal with, with so few givens and so manyunanswered questions, there ARE worse things to deal with. I haven't had anypersonal experience dealing with it, but if you were to ask listmember DeniseUriarte here ! in San Jose, I think she will tell you that FIP is even worse todeal with than FeLV. She has dealt with both.Kittys who develop FIP (a mutated form of the corona virus) may exhibit noneto mild symptoms in the early stages on infection, and that is when they areinfectious to other cats. By the time they are actively showing classicsymptoms of the disease, they are said to be no longer contagious. And some cats canevidently be latent carriers and never show symptoms, themselves. There isNO TEST which can positively tell you a cat has FIP...the only way toabsolutely confirm it is through necropsy. A high corona titer may be an indication,but not absolutely as a cat exposed to it but not becoming infected may have ahigh antibody titer. There are two forms, the dry and wet form. With the wetform there is excessive buildup of a stringy proteinaceous fluid in theabdomen or chest and cats with this form succumb rather quickly. With the dryform, a cat can linger for several months and in the end stages there can beneurological damage which causes seizures and the cat may be disoriented andcrashing into walls in its distress. Not a pretty sight to observe. Just as withthere being no explanation as to why the FeLV virus mutates into one of itsmore virulent subgroups in some cats and not others, I've never seen anexplanation as to why the corona virus mutates to FIP in some cats, but not others.Immuno-compromised cats, such as those with FeLV are said to be moresuseceptible.In '03, Denis
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
In a message dated 1/22/2005 4:37:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago. CHERIE OMG how horrible..no wonder Snowball dieing like he did was so scary for youI am sorry about your little girl... Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: FELV+ Kitty
What vet is he staying with? What is his age? I had an offer from washington state, but that's too far for me to transport. I'm on a national list though, so I might get some offers closer. Also, contact Dr. Melinda Merck at Cat Clinic of roswell. I think it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] She can sometimes place positives, and she works with Good Mews. I'm also on a list where there's a siamese rescue. She might could help. What's the 'story' on this cat? Where did he come from? tJENNIFER RYAN CADIEU [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tonya,Thank you for the response. The kitty is staying at our vet right now until we can figure out what to do with him. He is the sweetest thing I've ever seen!! I hate for you to take him on, even on a temp basis, if you are having the probs that you are having with your kitties. I would appreciate it if you could post it where you think it would be helpful and let me know if you have any other ideas. Thanks so much..Jenny
Re: FELV+ Kitty in GA
catatonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What vet is he staying with? What is his age? I had an offer from washington state, but that's too far for me to transport. I'm on a national list though, so I might get some offers closer. Also, contact Dr. Melinda Merck at Cat Clinic of roswell. I think it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] She can sometimes place positives, and she works with Good Mews. I'm also on a list where there's a siamese rescue. She might could help. What's the 'story' on this cat? Where did he come from? tJENNIFER RYAN CADIEU [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tonya,Thank you for the response. The kitty is staying at our vet right now until we can figure out what to do with him. He is the sweetest thing I've ever seen!! I hate for you to take him on, even on a temp basis, if you are having the probs that you are having with your kitties. I would appreciate it if you could post it where you think it would be helpful and let me know if you have any other ideas. Thanks so much..Jenny
Re: FELV+ Kitty
I am still looking for a placement for Ginger, she is a 16 week old orange kitten that is FELV+, she is in a foster home but in a cage and we really need to place her as it is so unfair to have her in a cage. Can anyone help? Linda
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? -- for Cherie
Dear Cherie... I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about what happened to your daughter, and after going through that kind of personal hell, I can understand why the manner in which Snowball passed was particularly excruciating for you. Her symptoms were not typical of what happens to kittys with FeLV, however. I've never heard of another FeLV kitty who had such a bleeding anomaly, but my experience with FeLV is not extensive. No matter what the illness, when you are in the middle of having to deal with a terminal situation, it is the WORST. I guess I was just trying to put things in perspective...whenever you think your situation seems unbearable, if you will but look a little further you can find someone else whose situation is a lot worse than your own. I am sure the people who experienced the torrential rains and mudslide in La Conchita, CA would tell you that was the worst possible experience to endure, but just two weeks before could be thankful they weren't vacationing in Thailand or Sri Lanka. Someone else mentioned that their idea of the WORST was feline distemper (Panleukopenia), which has got to be one of the most horrible ways I have ever witnessed for a cat to die, with the excruciatingly painful crouching over the water bowl yet unable to drink, the vomiting of frothy yellow bile and the horrible bloody end-stage diarrhea that smells like something dead...the poor cat is literally shedding the lining of its intestines. Dogs with parvo go through similar torture and have that same awful smell. Both are corona viruses. As it is most devastating for young kittens and takes them out so quickly, at least death usually comes quickly for them. But the afflicted dogs and cats are in obvious agony while it is ravaging their bodies. I've only managed to save one kitten, at 10 weeks, from that horrid virus. With aggressive hospital treatment, the odds are somewhat better, I understand, though still not good. Thankfully the vaccine for the P-virus is effective and relatively safe, especially if administered in a single valent dose, and it is much less common than it once was. But it is easily transmitted and hard to eradicate, so if it breaks out in a shelter or unprotected multicat environment, it can wreak untold havoc and rapidly. I wasn't saying FeLV isn't an absolute nightmare, or that FIP was THE worst virus of all time, I was just saying that having dealt with FeLV and seen someone else and their kittys suffering through FIP and the frustration of there not being a test and no way to tell what you are dealing with in the early stages, worrying about just how contagious it really is, with the vaccine considered neither safe nor reliable, I'd choose dealing with FeLV over FIP. I've been there and done that and lost two precious furkids and my heart still aches, but I've also been on the other end with a miracle baby clearing the virus. And many kittys, for whatever reason, are lucky enough to become infected with FeLV and the virus never mutates to one of its more virulent forms and they go on to lead relatively normal lives for years. Most vets consider FIP to be 100% fatal, however. I've read that some holistic vets claim to have saved some cats from FIP if diagnosed early on, but still admit there is no way of knowing if the cat has truly been cured, or if it remains a carrier of the virus because there is no reliable testing for either the active virus or its latent state. You have to do a necropsy on a dead cat to know for certain. The testing we have for FeLV does seem to have its vagaries, but it is less of a crapshoot than for FIP. Guess I should have kept my philosophical musings to myself...I did not mean to stir up painful memories for others or start a debate. My apologies. I agree that all the serious viruses which can kill our beloved furkids are something we wish no one had to deal with. I, for one, am looking forward to pigging out on cheesecake with the rest of you before I cross over to be reunited with my furkids who have become angels. Sally in San Jose Sally in San Jose Certainly
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST? -- for Cherie
Cherie, I, too am so sorry to hear about what you went through losing your daughter. You are obviously a very strong person to survive that and still have the wonderful attitude you have toward saving pets and your dealings with your son. tonya[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Cherie...I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about what happened to your daughter, and after going through that kind of personal hell, I can understand why the manner in which Snowball passed was particularly excruciating for you. Her symptoms were not typical of what happens to kittys with FeLV, however. I've never heard of another FeLV kitty who had such a bleeding anomaly, but my experience with FeLV is not extensive. No matter what the illness, when you are in the middle of having to deal with a terminal situation, it is the WORST. I guess I was just trying to put things in perspective...whenever you think your situation seems unbearable, if you will but look a little further you can find someone else whose situation is a lot worse than your own. I am sure the people who experienced the torrential rains and ! mudslide in La Conchita, CA would tell you that was the worst possible experience to endure, but just two weeks before could be thankful they weren't vacationing in Thailand or Sri Lanka. Someone else mentioned that their idea of the WORST was feline distemper (Panleukopenia), which has got to be one of the most horrible ways I have ever witnessed for a cat to die, with the excruciatingly painful crouching over the water bowl yet unable to drink, the vomiting of frothy yellow bile and the horrible bloody end-stage diarrhea that smells like something dead...the poor cat is literally shedding the lining of its intestines. Dogs with parvo go through similar torture and have that same awful smell. Both are corona viruses. As it is most devastating for young kittens and takes them out so quickly, at least death usually comes quickly for them. But the afflicted dogs and cats are in obvious agony while it is ravaging their bodies. I've on! ly managed to save one kitten, at 10 weeks, from that horrid virus. With aggressive hospital treatment, the odds are somewhat better, I understand, though still not good. Thankfully the vaccine for the P-virus is effective and relatively safe, especially if administered in a single valent dose, and it is much less common than it once was. But it is easily transmitted and hard to eradicate, so if it breaks out in a shelter or unprotected multicat environment, it can wreak untold havoc and rapidly.I wasn't saying FeLV isn't an absolute nightmare, or that FIP was THE worst virus of all time, I was just saying that having dealt with FeLV and seen someone else and their kittys suffering through FIP and the frustration of there not being a test and no way to tell what you are dealing with in the early stages, worrying about just how contagious it really is, with the vaccine considered neither safe nor reliable, I'd choose deali! ng with FeLV over FIP. I've been there and done that and lost two precious furkids and my heart still aches, but I've also been on the other end with a miracle baby clearing the virus. And many kittys, for whatever reason, are lucky enough to become infected with FeLV and the virus never mutates to one of its more virulent forms and they go on to lead relatively normal lives for years. Most vets consider FIP to be 100% fatal, however. I've read that some holistic vets claim to have saved some cats from FIP if diagnosed early on, but still admit there is no way of knowing if the cat has truly been cured, or if it remains a carrier of the virus because there is no reliable testing for either the active virus or its latent state. You have to do a necropsy on a dead cat to know for certain. The testing we have for FeLV does seem to have its vagaries, but it is less of a crapshoot than for FIP.Guess I should have kept my philosophi! cal musings to myself...I did not mean to stir up painful memories for others or start a debate. My apologies. I agree that all the serious viruses which can kill our beloved furkids are something we wish no one had to deal with. I, for one, am looking forward to pigging out on cheesecake with the rest of you before I cross over to be reunited with my furkids who have become angels.Sally in San JoseSally in San JoseCertainly
Re: Is FeLV really the WORST?
Thank you, I am much better now :-)), takes some time to get over but, needless to say it is hard to loose anyoneand pets and people in my book are one and the same. Thanks again Cherie[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/22/2005 4:37:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Snowball was playing and eating with the bleeding so it just was one of those things. Not to mention my daughter (age 1) bled to death in my arms, many years ago. CHERIE OMG how horrible..no wonder Snowball dieing like he did was so scary for youI am sorry about your little girl... Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
Thanks. In a message dated 1/15/2005 1:51:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That is very heart warming...you are a gentle soul. Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
Thanks Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
In a message dated 1/16/2005 12:37:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Congratulations!!! Thanks. Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
Thanks. When I say it with the r's rolled, it sounds a lot like the call a mother cat uses to call her kittens to nurse. In a message dated 1/15/2005 11:39:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: that's wonderful..what a neat name...I would definantly say that she liked that name.,... Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Hi, I think I can sneak her/him in. I live in a condo and Mgt has been on by back about taking in any more cats. That is why I said sneak. I may be taking one from Sally. in San Jose, not sure. Plese give me a phone call 510 522 4762. If I do not get to the phone in time please leave a message on my answering mach. And I will get back to you.
RE: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
Title: Message Congratulations to you and Baran, Kathy! I missed the beginning of this story, but I love the end. (And now starts the beginning ofa whole new wonderful story, right?!) Good luck to you both, Kerry -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 11:57 AMTo: felvtalk@vlists.netSubject: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ I met up with Nova Queen 2 (using her screen name to protect the innocent - hehehe) just inside the PA border east of WV last Sunday. I enjoyed meeting her (as I do all cat-folk) and hurried home with the little girl who didn't have a name yet. We made it home with no problem and she hid under the bed for a couple days. I slid canned food under the bed to her and made sure she had water and a litter pan available under there, and let her come out on her terms (aside from having to catch her to give her her last dose of medicine on Monday). She started coming out just while I was getting the canned food ready on Tuesday, and let me pet her a few times, but she would only eat under or just next to the bed, and as soon as the food was gone, so was she. Friday night, I came into their room and she was sitting in the open on a windowsill.She let me pet her and pick her up and she wentback to the windowwhen I set her down. A little later, she let me pick her up and snuggle on the bed with her, but she didn't want to stay too closewhen I let go. I found a book on the languages of Tolkien's middle earthtonight - that has a dictionary and such with words and names from all the languages, with special emphasis on elvish. I found about 15 words or names that i either liked the sound of or liked the meaning of, and while I was passing along an update to her rescuer, I started trying the names out on her - while she was focused on staring out the window. When I got through about 8 or 9 of them - saying each one twice, I tried "Baran" (BAH-rrrahn - a's pronounced like the "a" in father, the "r" rolled, and the emphasis on "Ba") (Means "Golden Brown" - she's a tiny shorthaired brown mackerel tabby with a white spot on her chest and white toes, and the brown is a rich reddishbrown). The first time I said it, she turned an ear towards me, the second time, she whipped her head around and looked at me, then she came down from the window sill and sat on the night stand within reach of my computer and let me pet her - and purred. I took that to mean she liked the name, so Baran it is! She's about 1 1/2-2 years old, and is 1/2 the size of the other guys in here. Her legs and tail are on the short side of normal, and her body is on the short side too, but looks almost out of proportion to the rest of her. She's just too cute! Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine- This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Re: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama?
Sally has brought up this point before. Kittens being tested too young and perhaps showing positive because of the mother's antibodies. Unfortunately, too many of these kittens are pts without the opportunity to retest. I thought that was an interesting theory about the different father's contribution of the virus. It does, however, seem to be disproved in the case of my litter. I have assumed that the litter of six kittens that I rescued were infected invitro (they were only about 2 1/2 weeks old when I found them, and had been protected from the exposure from that point on). But the "father theory" falls flat because three of the kittens sharing similar physical characteristics (perhaps sharing the same father), did not share the same fate as far as testing positive. I still am gratefully surprised that at least one of these kittens has tested negative. There is something that we just don't know about what determines who will become positive (based on their own metabolism or DNA?). It's such a crap shoot. Chris wrote: I don't know about this--Multiple kittens are never 'identical'--isn't it more likely that some just get it from their mother in utero others don't. For my own opinion, I just don't have a whole lot of confidence in tests. I worked in Child Welfare for many years and remember too vividly the initial efforts to test infants for HIV. At first, they were testing newborns and many months later realized that no test can be thought as conclusive until about 12-18 months old. Turns out infants were testing + because they were carrying mother's antibodies or such 18 months later were neg or visa versa. Viruses are very difficult to monitor as they almost always 'hide' somewhere in the body. Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of THC_lists Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:31 PM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: Re: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama? i also have this theory, unproven of course, but logical in terms of observations, that a kitten COULD be positive if DAD was it's the only easy way to explain why mom and half a litter can be negative while other kittens are negative - Original Message - From: "Gloria B. Lane" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FELVTalk@vlists.net Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:17 AM Subject: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama? I've got a question I've got a feral mama cat (Fatima) and her sweet little 3 month old kitten (Babycakes). Babycakes is easy to handle. Mama Fatima is not. If we test Babycakes for FELV/FIV, will that imply the status of feral mama Fatima? So... if Babycakes is FELV+, will that mean Fatima is FELV+? And if Babycakes is FELV-, will that mean Fatima is FELV-? Just looking for an easy way to find out! Any info is appreciated - thanks! Gloria
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Called to check on the status of this kitty (she is in Canyon Country in S. Calif.) and found out that she has gotten a home. She is from a colony of some 70 cats, originally, two elderly gentlemen at a mobile home park were feeding but not able to do any S/N (Groan...How often do we hear about such situations?) and many of them have tested FeLV+. This little girl was taken in with another, who, luckily tested negative, that had become ill during all the wet, cold weather. She'd been kept at a vet's clinic for almost two months by a rescuer who was running out of $$ and the vet was running out of patience. This sweet tuxie girl, now 4 mos. old, had lost an eye, but is now well again and, thankfully, has been taken in by someone who rescues only FeLV+ kittys. So often we don't find out what happens to kittys in need of homes who get posted on this list whose days are numbered so I thought you would all like to know this one found a home. Sally in San Jose
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Yay! I love good news and happy endings! I will tell the other list she is healthy and happy again. Terrie MohrCheck site for available Siameses for adoption!More will be posted soon.http://www.tazzys-siameses-collies.petfinder.org/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wasiameserescuehttp://siamese.meetup.com/38/This is for those of you in WA. state and would like to attend.http://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/index.htmlhttp://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/myhomepage/petmemorial.htmlTAZZY'S ANIMAL TRANSPORTSSIAMESE COLLIE RESCUEOwner/DriverPetfinder.comAdopt a Homeless Pet!http://www.petfinder.com/http://www.awca.net/index.htmhttp://www.felineleukemia.org/http://www.petloss.com/http://www.meezer.com/http://thesiamesestore.com/http://tx.siameserescue.org/adopt.htmlhttp://ca.siameserescue.org/http://co.siameserescue.org/http://va.siameserescue.org/ inline: aks.jpginline: logobuttonsq.jpg
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Glad to hear it, it always breaks my heart, to hear of someone running out of "patience" they are here to help those who need it, and she sounded like she needed it. I am glad she found a home.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Called to check on the status of this kitty (she is in Canyon Country in S. Calif.) and found out that she has gotten a home. She is from a colony of some 70 cats, originally, two elderly gentlemen at a mobile home park were feeding but not able to do any S/N (Groan...How often do we hear about such situations?) and many of them have tested FeLV+. This little girl was taken in with another, who, luckily tested negative, that had become ill during all the wet, cold weather. She'd been kept at a vet's clinic for almost two months by a rescuer who was running out of $$ and the vet was running out of patience. This sweet tuxie girl, now 4 mos. old, had lost an eye, but is now well again and, thankfully, has been taken in by someone who rescues only FeLV+ kittys. So often we don't find out what happens to kittys in need of homes who get post! ed on this list whose "days are numbered" so I thought you would all like to know this one found a home.Sally in San Jose
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Was this the pretty siamese mix girl?? -- Belinda Happiness is being owned by cats ... Be-Mi-Kitties ... http://www.bemikitties.com Post Adoptable FeLV/FIV/FIP Cats/Kittens http://adopt.bemikitties.com FeLV Candle Light Service http://www.bemikitties.com/cls Vote For Us http://www.bemikitties.com/toplist/cgi-bin/topsites.cgi?id=1 --- Web Design Porfolio http://www.bemikitties.com/bmksamples.htm#portfolio
RE: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Title: Message Yes, you read my mind, Cherie. More people that don't think... Kerry -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cherie A GabbertSent: Monday, January 17, 2005 2:09 PMTo: felvtalk@vlists.netSubject: Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost... Glad to hear it, it always breaks my heart, to hear of someone running out of "patience" they are here to help those who need it, and she sounded like she needed it. I am glad she found a home.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Called to check on the status of this kitty (she is in Canyon Country in S. Calif.) and found out that she has gotten a home. She is from a colony of some 70 cats, originally, two elderly gentlemen at a mobile home park were feeding but not able to do any S/N (Groan...How often do we hear about such situations?) and many of them have tested FeLV+. This little girl was taken in with another, who, luckily tested negative, that had become ill during all the wet, cold weather. She'd been kept at a vet's clinic for almost two months by a rescuer who was running out of $$ and the vet was running out of patience. This sweet tuxie girl, now 4 mos. old, had lost an eye, but is now well again and, thankfully, has been taken in by someone who rescues only FeLV+ kittys. So often we don't find out what happens to kittys in need of homes who get post! ed on this list whose "days are numbered" so I thought you would all like to know this one found a home.Sally in San Jose This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fos...
No, this kitty was a black LH tuxie, part Maine Coon. There was a post about a big Meezer boy in Oakland a week ago and he was taken in by our FeLV Talklist Angel in Alameda, Karolyn, and she says he has fit right in and wants to be a permanent lap decoration. I don't remember a part Meezer girl kitty. Does anyone else know what happened to that one? And how about Quimble, who is back there in New York or thereabouts? Did he get rescued in time?? Sally in San Jose
Re: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama?
Actually, I don't think it's necessarily so that the momma is positive based on her 3 month old's status. The kitten has probably been weaned for at least 6 weeks and in that time could have picked it up somewhere else. I would be concerned that Fatima is + if Babycakes is. I would be concerned for the entire colony, if I found even one FeLV or FIV cat amongst them. If the baby is negative, I would guess that Momma has a much better shot at being neg too. Let's hope Babycakes is negative! Cherie A Gabbert wrote: Gloria FeLV+ baby does mean FeLV+ mama, that is the most common ways baby's get it.I have heard that kittens do not live long with it (this is just hearsay, I have to articles to back that up). "Gloria B. Lane" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got a question I've got a feral mama cat (Fatima) and her sweet little 3 month old kitten (Babycakes). Babycakes is easy to handle. Mama Fatima is not. If we test Babycakes for FELV/FIV, will that imply the status of feral mama Fatima? So... if Babycakes is FELV+, will that mean Fatima is FELV+? And if Babycakes is FELV-, will that mean Fatima is FELV-? Just looking for an easy way to find out! Any info is appreciated - thanks! Gloria
Re: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama?
In a message dated 1/16/2005 1:18:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So... if Babycakes is FELV+, will that mean Fatima is FELV+? And if Babycakes is FELV-, will that mean Fatima is FELV-? it is possible ye..but how long have you had them in..he MAY have come into contact with another cat other than momma...so there is a SMALL possibility she is negative... Lisaand fur-bratsAkira--FeLV miracle baby www.geocities.com/anzajaguar Indy-- Truley Indian Jones as a cat..FEARLESSLance- Mini wire haired dashchundBow-Tie- 2yr old (sss he doesnt know he is 15 :) ) jack russel crossBennie Bird-- Vampire cockatielAnza-- sexist Senegal parrot..deffinantly a ladies bird :)
Re: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
Congratulations!!![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I met up with Nova Queen 2 (using her screen name to protect the innocent - hehehe) just inside the PA border east of WV last Sunday. I enjoyed meeting her (as I do all cat-folk) and hurried home with the little girl who didn't have a name yet. We made it home with no problem and she hid under the bed for a couple days. I slid canned food under the bed to her and made sure she had water and a litter pan available under there, and let her come out on her terms (aside from having to catch her to give her her last dose of medicine on Monday). She started coming out just while I was getting the canned food ready on Tuesday, and let me pet her a few times, but she would only eat under or just next to the bed, and as soon as the food was gone, so was she. Friday night, I came into their room and she was sitting in the open on a windowsill.She let me pet her and pick her up and she wentback to the windowwhen I set her down. A little later, she let me pick her up and snuggle on the bed with her, but she didn't want to stay too closewhen I let go. I found a book on the languages of Tolkien's middle earthtonight - that has a dictionary and such with words and names from all the languages, with special emphasis on elvish. I found about 15 words or names that i either liked the sound of or liked the meaning of, and while I was passing along an update to her rescuer, I started trying the names out on her - while she was focused on staring out the window. When I got through about 8 or 9 of them - saying each one twice, I tried "Baran" (BAH-rrrahn - a's pronounced like the "a" in father, the "r" rolled, and the emphasis on "Ba") (Means "Golden Brown" - she's a t! iny shorthaired brown mackerel tabby with a white spot on her chest and white toes, and the brown is a rich reddishbrown). The first time I said it, she turned an ear towards me, the second time, she whipped her head around and looked at me, then she came down from the window sill and sat on the night stand within reach of my computer and let me pet her - and purred. I took that to mean she liked the name, so Baran it is! She's about 1 1/2-2 years old, and is 1/2 the size of the other guys in here. Her legs and tail are on the short side of normal, and her body is on the short side too, but looks almost out of proportion to the rest of her. She's just too cute! Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama?
i also have this theory, unproven of course, but logical in terms of observations, that a kitten COULD be positive if DAD was it's the only easy way to explain why mom and half a litter can be negative while other kittens are negative - Original Message - From: Gloria B. Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FELVTalk@vlists.net Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:17 AM Subject: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama? I've got a question I've got a feral mama cat (Fatima) and her sweet little 3 month old kitten (Babycakes). Babycakes is easy to handle. Mama Fatima is not. If we test Babycakes for FELV/FIV, will that imply the status of feral mama Fatima? So... if Babycakes is FELV+, will that mean Fatima is FELV+? And if Babycakes is FELV-, will that mean Fatima is FELV-? Just looking for an easy way to find out! Any info is appreciated - thanks! Gloria
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Can someone help this baby? She is in CA. 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten Desperately needed : A place for this sweet little girl to go. Either to a foster or into a permanant home. She tested positive for FELV but the Dr said to retest again in 2-3 months. She is a VERY people friendly little tuxie Mainecoon/Norweigen Forest Cat X . She was taken out of a trailor park along with many others. She had URI and lost one eye due to lack of medical care. Once treatment began she responded very quickly but sadly it was too late for her eye. She is being boarded at a vet's office and 2 situations have come up. One, the woman that has been paying her boarding fee is pretty much tapped out. Two, the vet has said that she has more than overstayed her welcome. She needs OUT ASAP but the person handling the TNR kittens has NO PLACE for her. She really deservesa fair chance.ANYONE? Please contact JULIE @ 1- 661-313-5193 ASAP. Please do NOT reply to this e mail as the sender has no further information. Terrie MohrCheck site for available Siameses for adoption!More will be posted soon.http://www.tazzys-siameses-collies.petfinder.org/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wasiameserescuehttp://siamese.meetup.com/38/This is for those of you in WA. state and would like to attend.http://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/index.htmlhttp://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/myhomepage/petmemorial.htmlTAZZY'S ANIMAL TRANSPORTSSIAMESE COLLIE RESCUEOwner/DriverPetfinder.comAdopt a Homeless Pet!http://www.petfinder.com/http://www.awca.net/index.htmhttp://www.felineleukemia.org/http://www.petloss.com/http://www.meezer.com/http://thesiamesestore.com/http://tx.siameserescue.org/adopt.htmlhttp://ca.siameserescue.org/http://co.siameserescue.org/http://va.siameserescue.org/ inline: aks.jpginline: logobuttonsq.jpg
Re: [PNWAnimalAdoption] CA. - 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten needs a home or a fost...
Breaks my heart that I am not in California, I hope she can find a home.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone help this baby? She is in CA. 4 Month old FELV+ Kitten Desperately needed : A place for this sweet little girl to go. Either to a foster or into a permanant home. She tested positive for FELV but the Dr said to retest again in 2-3 months. She is a VERY people friendly little tuxie Mainecoon/Norweigen Forest Cat X . She was taken out of a trailor park along with many others. She had URI and lost one eye due to lack of medical care. Once treatment began she responded very quickly but sadly it was too late for her eye. She is being boarded at a vet's office and 2 situations have come up. One, the woman that has been paying her boarding fee is pretty much tapped out. Two, the vet has said that she has more than overstayed her welcome. She needs OUT ASAP but the person handling the TNR kittens has NO PLACE for her. She really deservesa fair chance.ANYONE? Please contact JULIE @ 1- 661-313-5193 ASAP. Please do NOT reply to this e mail as the sender has no further information. Terrie MohrCheck site for available Siameses for adoption!More will be posted soon.http://www.tazzys-siameses-collies.petfinder.org/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wasiameserescuehttp://siamese.meetup.com/38/This is for those of you in WA. state and would like to attend.http://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/index.htmlhttp://hometown.aol.com/tatorbunz/myhomepage/petmemorial.htmlTAZZY'S! ANIMAL TRANSPORTSSIAMESE COLLIE RESCUEOwner/DriverPetfinder.comAdopt a Homeless Pet!http://www.petfinder.com/http://www.awca.net/index.htmhttp://www.felineleukemia.org/http://www.petloss.com/http://www.meezer.com/http://thesiamesestore.com/http://tx.siameserescue.org/adopt.htmlhttp://ca.siameserescue.org/http://co.siameserescue.org/http://va.siameserescue.org/
RE: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama?
I don't know about this--Multiple kittens are never 'identical'--isn't it more likely that some just get it from their mother in utero others don't. For my own opinion, I just don't have a whole lot of confidence in tests. I worked in Child Welfare for many years and remember too vividly the initial efforts to test infants for HIV. At first, they were testing newborns and many months later realized that no test can be thought as conclusive until about 12-18 months old. Turns out infants were testing + because they were carrying mother's antibodies or such 18 months later were neg or visa versa. Viruses are very difficult to monitor as they almost always 'hide' somewhere in the body. Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of THC_lists Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 2:31 PM To: felvtalk@vlists.net Subject: Re: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama? i also have this theory, unproven of course, but logical in terms of observations, that a kitten COULD be positive if DAD was it's the only easy way to explain why mom and half a litter can be negative while other kittens are negative - Original Message - From: Gloria B. Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FELVTalk@vlists.net Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:17 AM Subject: does FELV kitten imply FELV mama? I've got a question I've got a feral mama cat (Fatima) and her sweet little 3 month old kitten (Babycakes). Babycakes is easy to handle. Mama Fatima is not. If we test Babycakes for FELV/FIV, will that imply the status of feral mama Fatima? So... if Babycakes is FELV+, will that mean Fatima is FELV+? And if Babycakes is FELV-, will that mean Fatima is FELV-? Just looking for an easy way to find out! Any info is appreciated - thanks! Gloria
Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
I met up with Nova Queen 2 (using her screen name to protect the innocent - hehehe) just inside the PA border east of WV last Sunday. I enjoyed meeting her (as I do all cat-folk) and hurried home with the little girl who didn't have a name yet. We made it home with no problem and she hid under the bed for a couple days. I slid canned food under the bed to her and made sure she had water and a litter pan available under there, and let her come out on her terms (aside from having to catch her to give her her last dose of medicine on Monday). She started coming out just while I was getting the canned food ready on Tuesday, and let me pet her a few times, but she would only eat under or just next to the bed, and as soon as the food was gone, so was she. Friday night, I came into their room and she was sitting in the open on a windowsill.She let me pet her and pick her up and she wentback to the windowwhen I set her down. A little later, she let me pick her up and snuggle on the bed with her, but she didn't want to stay too closewhen I let go. I found a book on the languages of Tolkien's middle earthtonight - that has a dictionary and such with words and names from all the languages, with special emphasis on elvish. I found about 15 words or names that i either liked the sound of or liked the meaning of, and while I was passing along an update to her rescuer, I started trying the names out on her - while she was focused on staring out the window. When I got through about 8 or 9 of them - saying each one twice, I tried "Baran" (BAH-rrrahn - a's pronounced like the "a" in father, the "r" rolled, and the emphasis on "Ba") (Means "Golden Brown" - she's a tiny shorthaired brown mackerel tabby with a white spot on her chest and white toes, and the brown is a rich reddishbrown). The first time I said it, she turned an ear towards me, the second time, she whipped her head around and looked at me, then she came down from the window sill and sat on the night stand within reach of my computer and let me pet her - and purred. I took that to mean she liked the name, so Baran it is! She's about 1 1/2-2 years old, and is 1/2 the size of the other guys in here. Her legs and tail are on the short side of normal, and her body is on the short side too, but looks almost out of proportion to the rest of her. She's just too cute! Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
Re: Update on FeLV+ needing home in NJ
That is very heart warming...you are a gentle soul.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I met up with Nova Queen 2 (using her screen name to protect the innocent - hehehe) just inside the PA border east of WV last Sunday. I enjoyed meeting her (as I do all cat-folk) and hurried home with the little girl who didn't have a name yet. We made it home with no problem and she hid under the bed for a couple days. I slid canned food under the bed to her and made sure she had water and a litter pan available under there, and let her come out on her terms (aside from having to catch her to give her her last dose of medicine on Monday). She started coming out just while I was getting the canned food ready on Tuesday, and let me pet her a few times, but she would only eat under or just next to the bed, and as soon as the food was gone, so was she. Friday night, I came into their room and she was sitting in the open on a windowsill.She let me pet her and pick her up and she wentback to the windowwhen I set her down. A little later, she let me pick her up and snuggle on the bed with her, but she didn't want to stay too closewhen I let go. I found a book on the languages of Tolkien's middle earthtonight - that has a dictionary and such with words and names from all the languages, with special emphasis on elvish. I found about 15 words or names that i either liked the sound of or liked the meaning of, and while I was passing along an update to her rescuer, I started trying the names out on her - while she was focused on staring out the window. When I got through about 8 or 9 of them - saying each one twice, I tried "Baran" (BAH-rrrahn - a's pronounced like the "a" in father, the "r" rolled, and the emphasis on "Ba") (Means "Golden Brown" - she's a t! iny shorthaired brown mackerel tabby with a white spot on her chest and white toes, and the brown is a rich reddishbrown). The first time I said it, she turned an ear towards me, the second time, she whipped her head around and looked at me, then she came down from the window sill and sat on the night stand within reach of my computer and let me pet her - and purred. I took that to mean she liked the name, so Baran it is! She's about 1 1/2-2 years old, and is 1/2 the size of the other guys in here. Her legs and tail are on the short side of normal, and her body is on the short side too, but looks almost out of proportion to the rest of her. She's just too cute! Where there's Life, there's HopeKathy"If you can't be a good example -- then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." Catherine-
