[Finale] Re: JW Plugins don't work in linked parts
On 2011-01-26 06:38, Darcy James Argue wrote: I am afraid that none of your new batch of plugins are available in linked parts This is a Mac-only issue. I'll check why this is happening. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
Yes, it works. Chuck Sent from my iPhone On Jan 26, 2011, at 7:06 AM, dc den...@free.fr wrote: Does the latest version of TGTools work in WinFin2011? I see on the website that only 2010 is mentioned. Thanks, Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
Great to know that. Which files have to be copied in the Finale 2011 plugins folder (from Finale 2010)? Thanks Il 26/01/2011 16.47, dc ha scritto: Chuck Israels écrit: Yes, it works. Thanks, Chuck. Good news! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
TGtools.bundle to HD/Library/ApplicationSupport/MakeMusic/Finale2011/Plugins Chuck On Jan 26, 2011, at 12:03 PM, marcellon...@gmail.com wrote: Great to know that. Which files have to be copied in the Finale 2011 plugins folder (from Finale 2010)? Thanks Il 26/01/2011 16.47, dc ha scritto: Chuck Israels écrit: Yes, it works. Thanks, Chuck. Good news! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
One caveat, at least on Macs: some of the tools in TGTools crash Finale 2011 - big time. Like Remove Word Extensions, among others I can't recall right now. Tobias told me an update was still months away. Kind of takes the value out of TGTools to some extent. I'm disappointed. J D Thomas ThomaStudios Il 26/01/2011 16.47, dc ha scritto: Chuck Israels écrit: Yes, it works. Thanks, Chuck. Good news! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
One caveat, at least on Macs: some of the tools in TGTools crash Finale 2011 - big time. Like Remove Word Extensions, among others I can't recall right now. Tobias told me an update was still months away. Kind of takes the value out of TGTools to some extent. I'm disappointed. J D Thomas ThomaStudios Il 26/01/2011 16.47, dc ha scritto: Chuck Israels écrit: Yes, it works. Thanks, Chuck. Good news! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
Hmm. I could easily turn that on its head and say that it kind of takes the value out of the Fin11 upgrade. It really depends which you value more. This is not remotely a hard question for me. TGTools is worth more to me than the last 3 or 4 upgrades combined. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 2:49 PM, J D Thomas j...@thomastudios.com wrote: One caveat, at least on Macs: some of the tools in TGTools crash Finale 2011 - big time. Like Remove Word Extensions, among others I can't recall right now. Tobias told me an update was still months away. Kind of takes the value out of TGTools to some extent. I'm disappointed. J D Thomas ThomaStudios Il 26/01/2011 16.47, dc ha scritto: Chuck Israels écrit: Yes, it works. Thanks, Chuck. Good news! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
On 1/26/2011 4:57 PM, J D Thomas wrote: Kind of takes the value out of TGTools to some extent. I'm disappointed. That's a rather strange statement, considering that Tobias hasn't released an update for which we've had to pay in more than 9 years, during which time he has continually made changes for new Finale releases and I think added new features as well. I've gotten much more value out of my long-ago investment in TGTools than I bargained for. I know you probably meant that it takes some of the usefulness out of TGTools, rather than value. But still, I'm always grateful for the compatibility updates we get for free. I wouldn't blame Tobias (and I wouldn't mind, either) if at some point he decided that starting with Finale version 20XX we had to buy new licenses to get those updates. (And maybe a few wished-for new features as well.) Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
I do agree Robert. But if the plug-in set constantly crashes the application, it's not much good in its current state. And upgrades have been slow in coming. I for one would be more than willing to pay for an upgrade to this set. Your's also. They are that valuable to my work flow. But only if they work. Otherwise, their value is diminished. As for the last 3-4 Finale upgrades, they've been most underwhelming. J D Thomas ThomaStudios On Jan 26, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: Hmm. I could easily turn that on its head and say that it kind of takes the value out of the Fin11 upgrade. It really depends which you value more. This is not remotely a hard question for me. TGTools is worth more to me than the last 3 or 4 upgrades combined. On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 2:49 PM, J D Thomas j...@thomastudios.com wrote: One caveat, at least on Macs: some of the tools in TGTools crash Finale 2011 - big time. Like Remove Word Extensions, among others I can't recall right now. Tobias told me an update was still months away. Kind of takes the value out of TGTools to some extent. I'm disappointed. J D Thomas ThomaStudios Il 26/01/2011 16.47, dc ha scritto: Chuck Israels écrit: Yes, it works. Thanks, Chuck. Good news! Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
TGTools is worth more to me than the last 3 or 4 upgrades combined. seconded ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 7:01 PM, J D Thomas j...@thomastudios.com wrote: As for the last 3-4 Finale upgrades, they've been most underwhelming. So why use them? I still use Fin08, fwiw. TGTools works just fine with it. No crashes. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] TGTools and 2011
Primarily due to the fact that my recent, required Snow Leopard upgrade has rendered Finale 2007 inoperative on my Mac Pro. It steadfastly won't allow me to register it, reinstall, or anything; read: run. And the folks at MM have been absolutely no help. I have a drive that I can still boot from Leopard, but that's becoming a royal pain, since the bulk of my work is now being done more productively in SN. On Jan 26, 2011, at 5:06 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: So why use them? I still use Fin08, fwiw. TGTools works just fine with it. No crashes. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On Wed Jan 26, at WednesdayJan 26 8:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd I think I know what he means. Like you enter C, Eb, G, A and it tells you Cm6, or Eb6(#11), or Am7(b5), or F9 (rootless), or D7sus4b9 (rootless), etc., and it makes allowances for enharmonics. I think Finale can actually do this, but I never agree with its assessments, so I have never used it. I can do it faster by eye or by ear in any case. Sorry, Matthew. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Yeah, just what I was going to say ;) Either Darcy types like the wind (I think he does) or he had this somewhere ready to paste into the email. THAT is a serious answer to a question. It takes a while, but it shouldn't be too hard for a musician who is familiar with functional harmony to learn the names of jazz chords. When I taught theory and harmony, I insisted that my students learn both the Roman numeral names and the jazz names for everything they encountered. One is good for telling where you are in the key - how far you are from a cadence, the other is quicker for getting the vertical note grouping and neither will tell you much about the voicing. Also, since this is a language - not a scientific experiment, there are variables and ambiguities that are hard for a machine to analyze. Christopher indicated as much in his response. Sometimes you have to look at surrounding chords in order to tell what to call a particular chord, and even then, good musicians may disagree. Chuck On Jan 26, 2011, at 8:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Thanks Darcy and all, I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric world. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. Cheers Matthew On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural fifth can be added to all of the above chords, but it's not essential. Fully diminished and half-diminshed chords require a (flattened) 5th in addition to the 3rd and 7th: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = Root + m3 + dim5 + dim7 = o7 [or dim7] -- C Eb Gb Bbb = Co7 On MA7 and mi(MA)7 chords, you can substitute the 6th for the seventh -- this is frequently done to avoid a clash when the root is in the melody: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA6 = 6 -- C E (G) A = C6 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA6 = mi6 -- C Eb (G) A = Cmi6 Natural extensions are the 9th and 13th -- they can be indicated by replacing 7 with 9 or 13. The 13th implies the presence of a 9th. For instance: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 = MA9 -- C E (G) B D = CMA9 Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 On minor chords, the 11th is also available as a natural extension (and implies the presence of a 9th): Root + mi3 (+ P5) + mi7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11 -- C Eb (G) Bb D F = Cmi11 Root + mi3 (+ P5) + MA7 + MA9 + P11 = mi11(MA7) -- C Eb (G) B D F = Cmi11(MA7) Alterations include #5ths, b9ths, #9ths, #and 11ths. Alterations are most often applied to dominant seventh chords. They are listed in parentheses. Multiple alterations are usually stacked vertically, with the highest alteration on top. (That's hard to do in email without resorting to fixed-width fonts, so I won't do that here -- I'll just list them horizontally.) Root + MA3 + mi7 + aug9 = 7(#9) -- C E Bb D# = C7(#9) Root + MA3 + mi7+ mi9 + aug11 + MA13 = 13 (#11 b9) = C E Bb Db F# A = C13 (#11 b9) There's obviously a lot more to it, but the above outlines the basic principles and should allow you to generate understandable chord symbols for most commonly-used jazz chords. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 10:47 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: So, something like: E G# A# B# D and it will give whatever it is (Eaug7#11?) (Sorry if the chord is wrong, I'm not much of a jazz theoretician.) Matthew On 27/01/11 12:43 PM, dershem wrote: On 1/26/2011 4:55 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Forgive if this is a dumb or simplistic question, but does anyone know of such a thing on the 'net wherein you can specify letter names and it will give the variety of jazz chord names for such a chord? Thanks in advance Matthew Not sure what you mean. Can you give an example? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Hi Matthew, Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Yes, C (add2) = C D E G. C(9) looks too much like C9, which would of course be C E (G) Bb D. And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence C7(#5), CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like C+7 but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing). Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass lines against those chords. With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7, mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted. What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended dominant chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance: Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus If you also want the ninth, that's C9sus and if you want the 9th and 13th, it's C13sus. (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as C11 but that's poor practice, IMO.) (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3) = C F (G) Bb E. Suspended triads are just sus -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G written as Csus2 but I prefer C5 (add2). (C5 is more of a rock symbol, indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.) Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. I've never tried Finale's tools but it doesn't surprise me that they give poor results. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 27 Jan 2011, at 1:14 AM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Thanks Darcy and all, I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric world. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. Cheers Matthew On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 Root + m3 + MA7 = mi(MA)7 -- C Eb B = Cmi(MA7) Root + m3 + m7 = mi7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7 The natural
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. minor-major chord? Cmi(ma7)Is that what you meant? - Nigel Hanley On 27/01/2011, at 5:14 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
Yes, the minor-major 7th I should have said. Interesting with the alterations of the 5th and it being like any other alteration, plus the way that added notes are indicated, not to mention the use of G4 (as below), we're perhaps not that far away from figured bass after all any more, at least in some senses. I learn something new every day. :) Thanks again for this wealth of interesting knowledge, Matthew On 27/01/11 5:41 PM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. minor-major chord? Cmi(ma7)Is that what you meant? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
On 27/01/2011, at 5:35 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matthew, Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? Yes, C (add2) = C D E G. C(9) looks too much like C9, which would of course be C E (G) Bb D. And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? These days, altered 5ths are treated as any other alteration, hence C7(#5), CMA7(#5), etc. Back in the day, you used to see a lot of chord symbols like C+7 but nowadays that's considered awkward (and potentially confusing). Similarly, #11ths used to generally be notated as b5ths, until people noticed that the bass players were still happily playing natural fifths in their bass lines against those chords. With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? No. The natural 11th is only available as an extension on minor chords (mi7, mi(MA7), mi7(b5), and the third is not omitted. What I think you are talking about is something different, a suspended dominant chord, where the 4th *replaces* the third. For instance: Root - P4 - (P5) - mi7 = 7sus -- C F G Bb = C7sus If you also want the ninth, that's C9sus and if you want the 9th and 13th, it's C13sus. (You will sometimes see C9sus chords written as C11 but that's poor practice, IMO.) (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Yes -- although in that case the symbol would be 7sus (add3) -- C7sus (add3) = C F (G) Bb E. Suspended triads are just sus -- Csus = C F G. You'll sometimes see C D G written as Csus2 but I prefer C5 (add2). (C5 is more of a rock symbol, indicating a open fifth, or power chord -- C5 = just C G.) Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. I've never tried Finale's tools but it doesn't surprise me that they give poor results. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 27 Jan 2011, at 1:14 AM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Thanks Darcy and all, I've always wondered how the minor-major chord was indicated, as well as the whole added-note thing. Makes a lot of sense. Do you ever use things like Cadd2 to indicate CDEG? Or from what you write below, you would write C(9)? And I note that you don't use the aug7 suffix anywhere - is there any reason for that? Is it not used in jazz very much? With 11th chords, I believe the convention is to omit the 3rd? (Presumably if it's based on a major triad, unlike your examples below). If the 3rd is actually desired, is it necessary to add it in explicitly into the symbols? Thanks again, it's very useful, esp coming from a more figured-bass centric world. Also, I tried the MIDI Analysis of my original chord EG#A#B#D using Finale after Christopher's suggestion and it gave me BbM9(b5)/E which I suppose is fine given it didn't know the spelling of what I was after. Analysing the written pitches using One-Staff Analysis resulted in Bb7(#11)/E, even though there is no Bb in the chord. For CDEG, Finale gave Em7(#5)/C for crying out loud. So it's of course an inexact science, as folks have pointed out. Cheers Matthew On 27/01/11 4:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, As Chuck said, I typed this quickly -- too quickly, in fact. Please allow me to correct some typos: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = I was missing the chord symbol at the end there -- should be: Root + m3 + dim5 + m7 = ø [or mi7(b5)] -- C Eb Gb Bb = *Cø [or Cmi7(b5)]* Root + MA3 (+ P5) + m7 + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Typo there on the seventh -- should be MA7, of course: Root + MA3 (+ P5) + *MA7* + MA9 + MA13 = MA13 -- C E (G) B D A = CMA13 Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 26 Jan 2011, at 11:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Matt, Close: E G# A# B# D = E7 (#11 #5) (Though the actual chord symbol would have the #11 stacked vertically above the #5, with both alterations enclosed in tall brackets.) I've never encountered what you are looking for on the internet but you could do worse than to pick up The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine. But the short version is that jazz chord quality is determined by the basic chord tones --i.e., the root, 3rd and 7th: Root + MA3 + MA7 = MA7 -- C E B = CMA7 Root + MA3 + mi7 = 7 -- C Eb Bb = Cmi7
Re: [Finale] OT: Jazz chord names
oops, sorry for that mis-send Matthew, Beware that G4 is not in common usage. I happen to like it as a similar construct to the C2 example. Darcy is quite correct in saying some chord symbols are not best practice. G4 would certainly fit into that category. I occasionally will use C11, but only when it is clear that the chord has a min7th, ninth and 11th, and no min or maj 3rd...the other way to write this would be Bb/C. Once again I agree with Darcy about it not being best practice. A simple rule of thumb, please tell me if I'm wrong. If a chord contains a minor 7th: added notes, such as the 2nd, 4th and 6th become the 9th, 11th and 13th. This tells me the chord is a dominant seventh chord, or an extension of a minor seventh chord. If a chord has 2, 4, 6 it tells me that the chord is a triad with one of those notes added. You can even add the 2nd and the 6th to get a C69 chord. It is still a major triad, but with added colours. The usage of 9 instead of 2 is more tradition than logic. Above all, chord symbols need to be readily understood. On 27/01/2011, at 6:05 PM, Matthew Hindson (gmail) wrote: Yes, the minor-major 7th I should have said. Interesting with the alterations of the 5th and it being like any other alteration, plus the way that added notes are indicated, not to mention the use of G4 (as below), we're perhaps not that far away from figured bass after all any more, at least in some senses. I learn something new every day. :) Thanks again for this wealth of interesting knowledge, Matthew On 27/01/11 5:41 PM, Nigel Hanley wrote: I no longer use Cadd2 but simply C2. I'd like to use G4 instead of Gsus4, but feel that's going a bit far. minor-major chord? Cmi(ma7)Is that what you meant? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
