Re: [Finale] Bowing Plug-in

[David H. Bailey]

On 8/17/2017 8:18 PM, Michael Dutka wrote:
> Wow! Been painstakingly plotting out my bowings ever since I learned how to
> do that in college, and hearing I've been wasting my time all these years.
> 
[snip]

It's a shame that your college professors didn't tell you to indicate 
bowings only sparingly.  Mine didn't tell me, either.  There's also a 
lot else they didn't tell me, or a lot that they did tell me that has 
ultimately proven worthless or false.

When I started conducting a community orchestra 25 years ago I was not 
prepared for the questions about bowings that the concertmaster and the 
principal 2nd violinist asked me. It was a real on-the-job education, 
especially when they were asking if they could change what had been 
marked.  When I asked why they wanted to change the printed bowings they 
said that those bowings just didn't work right for them.  I bowed to 
their experience and of course allowed the changes and the music worked 
out much better than it had before the changes.  And asked for guidance 
from my violinist wife (who wasn't in that orchestra).

Bowings are dependent on several things, most important of which is any 
given musician's playing ability, which includes how much bow they use 
for a particular note or a group of notes.  In professional orchestras 
the musicians are forced to do what the concertmasters feel work best 
for themselves.  And since they are getting paid, part of keeping their 
job is dependent on doing what the concertmaster (or principals of the 4 
other string sections) says.  However in amateur and student orchestras, 
wise concertmasters (and other principal string players) know what will 
work best for the section (even if not the best for higher-level 
players) and plan their bowings appropriately.

To get back to how your (and mine!) professors didn't give the complete 
picture on details such as bowings, there's an excellent book by 
Elizabeth Green called "Orchestral Bowings and Routines" which can help 
further enlighten non-string playing composers and arrangers about the 
string world.

Another great reference book to have is the late Andrew Stiller's 
"Handbook of Instrumentation."  It's available through Nick Carter's 
web-site at   It was 
Andrew's dissertation, if I remember correctly (Andrew was a longtime 
and very helpful member of this Finale list for many years before he 
died of heart complications) that he put into publishable format.  It is 
available on CD-Rom for easy access at the computer or printed for easy 
access anywhere or as a combination package.  It contains technical 
information about each instrument, giving different ranges for each 
instrument depending on the level of the music (beginner, amateur, 
professional), important techniques to know, additional techniques that 
can be used for special effects.

Finally a bit of advice for all composers and arrangers -- find local 
helpful professionals on any instruments you have questions about and 
pay them for a lesson where they discuss what's possible and what's not 
possible (or at least extremely difficult).  Remember that we can write 
and our computer soundcards (or other playback devices) can play music 
which most humans can't play (3-octave 64th note tuba runs in cut-time 
at M.M.=160 for example).  And learning to play a string instrument (and 
at least one woodwind, one brass, timpani and snare drum) is invaluable 
also, even if we never get anywhere close to professional level on it. 
Just understanding the technical aspects of the different families we 
write for can help us produce better music for them.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Bowing Plug-in

[Michael Dutka]

Wow! Been painstakingly plotting out my bowings ever since I learned how to
do that in college, and hearing I've been wasting my time all these years.

That'll certainly save me time and trouble in the future. Another feature I
really would like, but I'll ask in another post.

Thanks for the feedback,

Mike

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 1:00 PM, <finale-requ...@shsu.edu> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Bowing Plug-In? (Michael Dutka)
>2. Re: Bowing Plug-In? (David H. Bailey)
>3. Re: Bowing Plug-In? (Neal Gittleman)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:14:19 -0400
> From: Michael Dutka <mikedu...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Finale] Bowing Plug-In?
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Message-ID:
> <CACeQs3BwjJidGkZ6+k=NLCXFqGfq+=Rk6X6L_OVmVA2_
> fsg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hi, folks. Reviewing a fairly large opera score, about 160 minutes of
> music, and one thing that would be phenomenally helpful is some kind of
> plug-in or app that would let Finale users see every up and down bow, even
> when they're not written in.
>
> The string players I've spoken to don't like it when I write in every
> bowing mark, and ask me only to write them in when they're not obvious. But
> it's easy for me (as a non-string player) to lose track, and possibly write
> in a bad bowing combination, and we all know what working out problems
> during rehearsals with live musicians costs.
>
> Is there any such thing around? Anything one of you brilliant plug-in/app
> writers would want to create? I, for one, would pay a lot of money for
> something like that, and can't think I'm the only one.
>
> Just curious. Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:56:51 -0400
> From: "David H. Bailey" <dhbaile...@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Finale] Bowing Plug-In?
> To: finale@shsu.edu, Michael Dutka <mikedu...@gmail.com>
> Message-ID: <c72fecc3-458a-80ff-186b-df2d0d2d5...@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 8/15/2017 3:14 PM, Michael Dutka wrote:
> > Hi, folks. Reviewing a fairly large opera score, about 160 minutes of
> > music, and one thing that would be phenomenally helpful is some kind of
> > plug-in or app that would let Finale users see every up and down bow,
> even
> > when they're not written in.
> >
> > The string players I've spoken to don't like it when I write in every
> > bowing mark, and ask me only to write them in when they're not obvious.
> But
> > it's easy for me (as a non-string player) to lose track, and possibly
> write
> > in a bad bowing combination, and we all know what working out problems
> > during rehearsals with live musicians costs.
> >
> > Is there any such thing around? Anything one of you brilliant plug-in/app
> > writers would want to create? I, for one, would pay a lot of money for
> > something like that, and can't think I'm the only one.
> >
> > Just curious. Thanks,
> >
>
>
> Give a violin part to 10 violinists to bow and you'll get 10 different
> sets of bowing.
>
> There's no single way of bowing that everybody would agree on so no
> plug-in would ever work.
>
> The best a plug-in could do would be to indicate alternating up and down
> bows on each articulated note in sequence and indicate a single bowing
> at the start of a slur.  But I'm not sure why you would want such a
> plug-in, since no matter what you indicate the concertmaster will change
> it.
>
> Best to leave the bowings unmarked unless there is something you
> definitely want on an up-bow or a down-bow.  And mark those sparingly.
> Leave such things to the people who will be playing the parts.
>
>
> --
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 16:37:56 -0500
> From: Neal Gittleman <nealg...@mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Finale] Bowing Plug-In?
> To: finale@shsu.e

Re: [Finale] Bowing plug-in

[Matthew Naughtin]

Speaking as a violinist and long-time orchestra music librarian (Omaha 
Symphony, San Francisco Ballet, San Francisco Symphony) I suggest that 
you do not--repeat, DO NOT--insert bowings in your score unless you're 
indicating a specific effect, such as a marcato down-bow or a jeté 
stroke. Your bowings will inevitably be scribbled out by librarians like 
myself and replaced with the bowings the conductor and the principal 
string players prefer. Save yourself (and my fellow librarians) a lot of 
wasted effort by letting the principal string players do their jobs.

Matt Naughtin


> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:14:19 -0400
> From: Michael Dutka <mikedu...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Finale] Bowing Plug-In?
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Message-ID:
>   <CACeQs3BwjJidGkZ6+k=NLCXFqGfq+=rk6x6l_ovmva2_fsg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hi, folks. Reviewing a fairly large opera score, about 160 minutes of
> music, and one thing that would be phenomenally helpful is some kind of
> plug-in or app that would let Finale users see every up and down bow, even
> when they're not written in.
> 
> The string players I've spoken to don't like it when I write in every
> bowing mark, and ask me only to write them in when they're not obvious. But
> it's easy for me (as a non-string player) to lose track, and possibly write
> in a bad bowing combination, and we all know what working out problems
> during rehearsals with live musicians costs.
> 
> Is there any such thing around? Anything one of you brilliant plug-in/app
> writers would want to create? I, for one, would pay a lot of money for
> something like that, and can't think I'm the only one.
> 
> Just curious. Thanks,
> 
>
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Re: [Finale] Bowing Plug-In?

[Neal Gittleman]

I hate to contradict David, whose posts are generally dead-on, but...

Give a violin part to 10 violinists and you'll get at least 11 different 
bowings!

Neal Gittleman 

Sent from my iPhone
(so please excuse any tap-pos!)

> On Aug 15, 2017, at 2:56 PM, David H. Bailey  wrote:
> 
>> On 8/15/2017 3:14 PM, Michael Dutka wrote:
>> Hi, folks. Reviewing a fairly large opera score, about 160 minutes of
>> music, and one thing that would be phenomenally helpful is some kind of
>> plug-in or app that would let Finale users see every up and down bow, even
>> when they're not written in.
>> 
>> The string players I've spoken to don't like it when I write in every
>> bowing mark, and ask me only to write them in when they're not obvious. But
>> it's easy for me (as a non-string player) to lose track, and possibly write
>> in a bad bowing combination, and we all know what working out problems
>> during rehearsals with live musicians costs.
>> 
>> Is there any such thing around? Anything one of you brilliant plug-in/app
>> writers would want to create? I, for one, would pay a lot of money for
>> something like that, and can't think I'm the only one.
>> 
>> Just curious. Thanks,
>> 
> 
> 
> Give a violin part to 10 violinists to bow and you'll get 10 different 
> sets of bowing.
> 
> There's no single way of bowing that everybody would agree on so no 
> plug-in would ever work.
> 
> The best a plug-in could do would be to indicate alternating up and down 
> bows on each articulated note in sequence and indicate a single bowing 
> at the start of a slur.  But I'm not sure why you would want such a 
> plug-in, since no matter what you indicate the concertmaster will change it.
> 
> Best to leave the bowings unmarked unless there is something you 
> definitely want on an up-bow or a down-bow.  And mark those sparingly. 
> Leave such things to the people who will be playing the parts.
> 
> 
> -- 
> *
> David H. Bailey
> dhbaile...@comcast.net
> http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
> Finale mailing list
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> 
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> finale-unsubscr...@shsu.edu

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Re: [Finale] Bowing Plug-In?

[David H. Bailey]

On 8/15/2017 3:14 PM, Michael Dutka wrote:
> Hi, folks. Reviewing a fairly large opera score, about 160 minutes of
> music, and one thing that would be phenomenally helpful is some kind of
> plug-in or app that would let Finale users see every up and down bow, even
> when they're not written in.
> 
> The string players I've spoken to don't like it when I write in every
> bowing mark, and ask me only to write them in when they're not obvious. But
> it's easy for me (as a non-string player) to lose track, and possibly write
> in a bad bowing combination, and we all know what working out problems
> during rehearsals with live musicians costs.
> 
> Is there any such thing around? Anything one of you brilliant plug-in/app
> writers would want to create? I, for one, would pay a lot of money for
> something like that, and can't think I'm the only one.
> 
> Just curious. Thanks,
> 


Give a violin part to 10 violinists to bow and you'll get 10 different 
sets of bowing.

There's no single way of bowing that everybody would agree on so no 
plug-in would ever work.

The best a plug-in could do would be to indicate alternating up and down 
bows on each articulated note in sequence and indicate a single bowing 
at the start of a slur.  But I'm not sure why you would want such a 
plug-in, since no matter what you indicate the concertmaster will change it.

Best to leave the bowings unmarked unless there is something you 
definitely want on an up-bow or a down-bow.  And mark those sparingly. 
Leave such things to the people who will be playing the parts.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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[Finale] Bowing Plug-In?

[Michael Dutka]

Hi, folks. Reviewing a fairly large opera score, about 160 minutes of
music, and one thing that would be phenomenally helpful is some kind of
plug-in or app that would let Finale users see every up and down bow, even
when they're not written in.

The string players I've spoken to don't like it when I write in every
bowing mark, and ask me only to write them in when they're not obvious. But
it's easy for me (as a non-string player) to lose track, and possibly write
in a bad bowing combination, and we all know what working out problems
during rehearsals with live musicians costs.

Is there any such thing around? Anything one of you brilliant plug-in/app
writers would want to create? I, for one, would pay a lot of money for
something like that, and can't think I'm the only one.

Just curious. Thanks,

Mike
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