Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Steve Parker]

The method David describes is a good one. 
The gotcha is to watch for bar numbering..!

Steve P. 

> On 17 Aug 2017, at 13:21, SN jef chippewa  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> not really "mid-bar" change, more like butt-splicing different pieces 
> together, each with anacrusis and final "incomplete" measure.  but 
> yeah achieved in the same multi-step tasks in finale.
> 
> thanks for the reminder that i haven't listened to this piece in awhile :P
> 
> 
>>  Change time signature.  I realize this is unusual, but I think it
>> can make sense in certain situations.  For example, it can be found
>> several times in Beethoven's 31st Piano Sonata, Op. 110, where, in the
>> last movement, 12/16 changes to 6/8 mid-bar, then back and forth another
>> couple of times, always mid-bar:
>> 
>> http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP51805-PMLP01488-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_154_Op_110.pdf
> 
> -- 
> 
> neueweise -- fonts for new music (and traditional) notation
> http://newmusicnotation.com/fonts.html
> 
> shirling & neueweise  |  http://newmusicnotation.com
> new music notation  +  arts management  +  translation
> [FB] http://facebook.com/neueweise  |  [TW] http://twitter.com/neueweise
> 
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Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[GERALD BERG]

Very clever Robert! Thx. GJB

  From: Robert Patterson 
 To: finale  
 Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 9:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.
   
For both time sigs in one hand you choose which actual meter you want (4/8
or 12/16) then select "show as" to create a double key signature. Or at
least that's one way. Another is to add the second time sig as expressions.

On a number of occasions I have done something similar to your 4/4 in one
part and 3/8 in the other. That's actually fairly easy. You create the 3/8
as "12/8 show as 3/8". Then add the extra barlines as expressions in the
"3/8" part. With barlines only occasionally lining up as well you really
have to start looking at each case as its own challenge to decide the best
workaround for that case.

To add a time or key sig in the middle of the bar, you have to create two
bars. Let's say it changes in the middle of a 4/4 bar. To accomplish this
you

1. Replace the 4/4 bar with 2 "2/4 show as 4/4" bars.
2. Using Measure Attributes dlg, change the barline of the first bar to
either Nothing or a double bar, depending on the manuscript.
3, In the second bar uncheck "Include in Measure Numbering".

That's all there is to it. It may not be how you'd do it in manuscript, but
it isn't particularly tedious. And it works exactly as you would wish it to.



On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 3:45 AM, David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 8/19/2017 1:47 AM, Michael Edwards wrote:
> > [Robert Patterson:]
> >
> >>> I don't agree it is "very complicated". You can achieve the result
> >>> you want
> >>> (mid-measure keys/timesigs) using a few extra steps. The result is
> >>> robust
> >>> and works exactly as you would wish it to, including playback.
> >>>
> >>> Finale does permit e.g. 3/8 in RH and 9/16 in LH, where the barlines
> >>> line
> >>> up. (I don't understand what you mean by 9/19 meter.)
> >>
> >>      Did I type "9/19"?  It was a typo; I meant 9/16.
> >
> >        Oh - I forgot to add just now: it was both those in the left hand,
> > not one in the right and the other the left.  I think that was when I
> > mentioned Scriabin's 10 Piano Sonata, which does that near the end.  It
> > may sound confusing to read about, but the score is perfectly clear and
> > readable, and entirely logical.
> >
>
> Most of what you want to accomplish can be done in Finale, but not all
> of the things will be easy.  Dorico is on the track to being much more
> flexible than either Sibelius or Finale but it will be quite a while
> before it will be able easily to do what you are asking about
> completely.  Some of the things you want can be accomplished now with
> Dorico.  I've bought Dorico and played around with it some, but I find
> that Sibelius is my go-to notation app these days because it does so
> much so easily and 99% of what I do is old-fashioned standard notation.
> For example Dorico will allow different meters but the barlines won't
> line up.  It does what many Finale users have wanted for many years --
> different meters on different staves in the score result in different
> bar lengths.  So, for example, a piece with some bars in 2/4 and some in
> 6/8 will have the barlines in different places because it will make the
> 8th notes be uniform between the two staves.  However it has not yet
> been able to make the barlines line up creating different 8th note
> speeds (6/8 triplet-feel against the duple feeling of the 2/4 bars).  So
> it can't do it all either.
>
> One thing that can help to understand how Finale works is to know that
> it comes from a database background -- not completely but basically.
> The underlying philosophy of Finale is that each measure is a record in
> a database and the contents of that measure are data in fields in that
> record.  That's why the barlines line up between staves of different
> meters, which creates different speeds for the same note values in the
> differently metered staves.  And that's why to implement mid-measure
> changes like key or meter you need to create two measures of smaller
> time signatures to equal the appearance of one measure of the prevailing
> meter.
>
> So much of learning any software program I've found lies in trying to
> understand as much as possible the underlying philosophy of the original
> program designers and then realizing that generations of programmers
> have added layer upon layer over that original design.
>
> Finale's code was supposedly completely rewritten several versions ago
> (either that or I completely misunderstood the publicity MakeMusic was
> putting out) to modernize it but I suspect that much of the original
> code was put back in place or at least in the modernizing of the code
> the programming logic of the original code was not changed at all.
>
> I remember when they moved the menu items around (and continue to do so,
> it seems) which made it very difficult for us long-time Finale 

Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Robert Patterson]

For both time sigs in one hand you choose which actual meter you want (4/8
or 12/16) then select "show as" to create a double key signature. Or at
least that's one way. Another is to add the second time sig as expressions.

On a number of occasions I have done something similar to your 4/4 in one
part and 3/8 in the other. That's actually fairly easy. You create the 3/8
as "12/8 show as 3/8". Then add the extra barlines as expressions in the
"3/8" part. With barlines only occasionally lining up as well you really
have to start looking at each case as its own challenge to decide the best
workaround for that case.

To add a time or key sig in the middle of the bar, you have to create two
bars. Let's say it changes in the middle of a 4/4 bar. To accomplish this
you

1. Replace the 4/4 bar with 2 "2/4 show as 4/4" bars.
2. Using Measure Attributes dlg, change the barline of the first bar to
either Nothing or a double bar, depending on the manuscript.
3, In the second bar uncheck "Include in Measure Numbering".

That's all there is to it. It may not be how you'd do it in manuscript, but
it isn't particularly tedious. And it works exactly as you would wish it to.



On Sat, Aug 19, 2017 at 3:45 AM, David H. Bailey 
wrote:

> On 8/19/2017 1:47 AM, Michael Edwards wrote:
> > [Robert Patterson:]
> >
> >>> I don't agree it is "very complicated". You can achieve the result
> >>> you want
> >>> (mid-measure keys/timesigs) using a few extra steps. The result is
> >>> robust
> >>> and works exactly as you would wish it to, including playback.
> >>>
> >>> Finale does permit e.g. 3/8 in RH and 9/16 in LH, where the barlines
> >>> line
> >>> up. (I don't understand what you mean by 9/19 meter.)
> >>
> >>  Did I type "9/19"?  It was a typo; I meant 9/16.
> >
> >Oh - I forgot to add just now: it was both those in the left hand,
> > not one in the right and the other the left.  I think that was when I
> > mentioned Scriabin's 10 Piano Sonata, which does that near the end.  It
> > may sound confusing to read about, but the score is perfectly clear and
> > readable, and entirely logical.
> >
>
> Most of what you want to accomplish can be done in Finale, but not all
> of the things will be easy.  Dorico is on the track to being much more
> flexible than either Sibelius or Finale but it will be quite a while
> before it will be able easily to do what you are asking about
> completely.  Some of the things you want can be accomplished now with
> Dorico.  I've bought Dorico and played around with it some, but I find
> that Sibelius is my go-to notation app these days because it does so
> much so easily and 99% of what I do is old-fashioned standard notation.
> For example Dorico will allow different meters but the barlines won't
> line up.  It does what many Finale users have wanted for many years --
> different meters on different staves in the score result in different
> bar lengths.  So, for example, a piece with some bars in 2/4 and some in
> 6/8 will have the barlines in different places because it will make the
> 8th notes be uniform between the two staves.  However it has not yet
> been able to make the barlines line up creating different 8th note
> speeds (6/8 triplet-feel against the duple feeling of the 2/4 bars).  So
> it can't do it all either.
>
> One thing that can help to understand how Finale works is to know that
> it comes from a database background -- not completely but basically.
> The underlying philosophy of Finale is that each measure is a record in
> a database and the contents of that measure are data in fields in that
> record.  That's why the barlines line up between staves of different
> meters, which creates different speeds for the same note values in the
> differently metered staves.  And that's why to implement mid-measure
> changes like key or meter you need to create two measures of smaller
> time signatures to equal the appearance of one measure of the prevailing
> meter.
>
> So much of learning any software program I've found lies in trying to
> understand as much as possible the underlying philosophy of the original
> program designers and then realizing that generations of programmers
> have added layer upon layer over that original design.
>
> Finale's code was supposedly completely rewritten several versions ago
> (either that or I completely misunderstood the publicity MakeMusic was
> putting out) to modernize it but I suspect that much of the original
> code was put back in place or at least in the modernizing of the code
> the programming logic of the original code was not changed at all.
>
> I remember when they moved the menu items around (and continue to do so,
> it seems) which made it very difficult for us long-time Finale users to
> find things (as you have mentioned from using the off-line manual for
> 2009 and trying to find things in the new version of Finale).  Many of
> the changes made no sense at all to some of us but MakeMusic kept the
> 

Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[David H. Bailey]

On 8/19/2017 1:47 AM, Michael Edwards wrote:
> [Robert Patterson:]
> 
>>> I don't agree it is "very complicated". You can achieve the result
>>> you want
>>> (mid-measure keys/timesigs) using a few extra steps. The result is
>>> robust
>>> and works exactly as you would wish it to, including playback.
>>>
>>> Finale does permit e.g. 3/8 in RH and 9/16 in LH, where the barlines
>>> line
>>> up. (I don't understand what you mean by 9/19 meter.)
>>
>>  Did I type "9/19"?  It was a typo; I meant 9/16.
> 
>Oh - I forgot to add just now: it was both those in the left hand,
> not one in the right and the other the left.  I think that was when I
> mentioned Scriabin's 10 Piano Sonata, which does that near the end.  It
> may sound confusing to read about, but the score is perfectly clear and
> readable, and entirely logical.
> 

Most of what you want to accomplish can be done in Finale, but not all 
of the things will be easy.  Dorico is on the track to being much more 
flexible than either Sibelius or Finale but it will be quite a while 
before it will be able easily to do what you are asking about 
completely.  Some of the things you want can be accomplished now with 
Dorico.  I've bought Dorico and played around with it some, but I find 
that Sibelius is my go-to notation app these days because it does so 
much so easily and 99% of what I do is old-fashioned standard notation. 
For example Dorico will allow different meters but the barlines won't 
line up.  It does what many Finale users have wanted for many years -- 
different meters on different staves in the score result in different 
bar lengths.  So, for example, a piece with some bars in 2/4 and some in 
6/8 will have the barlines in different places because it will make the 
8th notes be uniform between the two staves.  However it has not yet 
been able to make the barlines line up creating different 8th note 
speeds (6/8 triplet-feel against the duple feeling of the 2/4 bars).  So 
it can't do it all either.

One thing that can help to understand how Finale works is to know that 
it comes from a database background -- not completely but basically. 
The underlying philosophy of Finale is that each measure is a record in 
a database and the contents of that measure are data in fields in that 
record.  That's why the barlines line up between staves of different 
meters, which creates different speeds for the same note values in the 
differently metered staves.  And that's why to implement mid-measure 
changes like key or meter you need to create two measures of smaller 
time signatures to equal the appearance of one measure of the prevailing 
meter.

So much of learning any software program I've found lies in trying to 
understand as much as possible the underlying philosophy of the original 
program designers and then realizing that generations of programmers 
have added layer upon layer over that original design.

Finale's code was supposedly completely rewritten several versions ago 
(either that or I completely misunderstood the publicity MakeMusic was 
putting out) to modernize it but I suspect that much of the original 
code was put back in place or at least in the modernizing of the code 
the programming logic of the original code was not changed at all.

I remember when they moved the menu items around (and continue to do so, 
it seems) which made it very difficult for us long-time Finale users to 
find things (as you have mentioned from using the off-line manual for 
2009 and trying to find things in the new version of Finale).  Many of 
the changes made no sense at all to some of us but MakeMusic kept the 
changes so we simply had to learn new menu locations for what we needed.

And over the years for some reason MakeMusic has been minimizing the use 
of Speedy Entry, trying to make Simple Entry more like Sibelius's 
primary note-entry method.  But Speedy Entry has much to recommend it so 
I encourage you to keep on experimenting with it to learn it.  And don't 
hesitate to ask things in this group -- it's got a broad spectrum of 
Finale users who do a wide variety of notational tasks and you can get 
good answers quickly.

The best advice I ever got was in my early days on this list, trying to 
learn Finale 3.5 -- work through the tutorials provided and then try 
doing simple notational tasks on meaningless projects, like a simple 
instrumental duet, then a simple piano work, then a piece with a vocal 
solo line and piano accompaniment, then a simple short string quartet. 
Gradually increase the difficulty of the short projects and you'll 
eventually get (over a period of a couple of weeks) much more 
comfortable with the program.  Don't try to do complex important 
notational tasks until you've worked with the program for a few weeks 
doing simple stuff.

Many people think that installing a piece of very complex software 
should allow them to begin immediately working on their major projects. 
Unfortunately that's not the case -- 

Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Michael Edwards]

[Robert Patterson:]

>>I don't agree it is "very complicated". You can achieve the result 
>> you want
>>(mid-measure keys/timesigs) using a few extra steps. The result is 
>> robust
>>and works exactly as you would wish it to, including playback.
>>
>>Finale does permit e.g. 3/8 in RH and 9/16 in LH, where the barlines 
>> line
>>up. (I don't understand what you mean by 9/19 meter.)
>
> Did I type "9/19"?  It was a typo; I meant 9/16.

  Oh - I forgot to add just now: it was both those in the left hand, 
not one in the right and the other the left.  I think that was when I 
mentioned Scriabin's 10 Piano Sonata, which does that near the end.  It 
may sound confusing to read about, but the score is perfectly clear and 
readable, and entirely logical.

Michael Edwards.


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Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Michael Edwards]

[Robert Patterson wrote:]

>I don't agree it is "very complicated". You can achieve the result you 
> want
>(mid-measure keys/timesigs) using a few extra steps. The result is 
> robust
>and works exactly as you would wish it to, including playback.
>
>Finale does permit e.g. 3/8 in RH and 9/16 in LH, where the barlines 
> line
>up. (I don't understand what you mean by 9/19 meter.)

  Did I type "9/19"?  It was a typo; I meant 9/16.


>It will even playback
>correctly. Check out Independent Time Signature in the staff dialog 
> box.
>Where Finale truly presents "very complicated" challenges is if you 
> want
>different meters with different barlines in different staves. (Think
>Charles Ives for example.) Then there really is a great deal of tedium 
> to
>accomplish it.

  Well, so far I don't think I need that (although I do recall years 
ago trying to write a piece in 4/4, but the two hands had permanently 
staggered bar-lines - and it made sense in terms of the rhythm I was 
using).
  But I have seen scores where some instruments are playing a fast, 
repeated figure in 3/8 time and other instruments are playing a slower 
theme in 4/4 time, and the barring is separate in these two sections, so 
that four 3/8 bars fit into one 4/4 bar - or similar.  And it wasn't 
anything like Ives - I forget what, but it was a romantic, tonal 
symphony or something.  And I have seen in Edgar Bainton's "Concerto 
Fantasia" a section where part of the orchestra is playing in 3/2 and 
another part in 4/4, with crotchets exactly the same in both, so that 
the bar-lines coincide sometimes, and don't at other times.  Again, that 
is a romantic piece - nothing avant-garde.
  It is conceivable I could want to do things of that sort one day.  
I'll try looking at the thing you suggest, so thanks for that.
  But I am currently doing a piano piece where 4/8 and 12/16 play a 
roughly equal role, although one or the other may predominate at 
different times, and both may appear simultaneously at other times.  I 
want to use each time signature strictly where it applies so as to make 
this dual aspect of the rhythm perfectly plain.  I've already found out 
how to have 4/8 in one hand and 12/16 in the other (it plays back 
correctly, too, but mangles up if I try to copy and paste such passages 
anywhere); but I haven't yet found out how to make some of the key 
signature changes half-way through the bar, as is already required a 
couple of times; and there are one or two passages where both time 
signatures appear in one hand.  I am suspecting that, if the last is 
possible, it will take some serious fakery.
  Would it work if I temporarily created three staves, so that two 
of them, for instance, can be assigned to the right hand, with the two 
different time signatures, and then, once I've filled in all the notes 
and other markings, I can put one exactly on the other, so that it looks 
like one staff - and I could then use a bit of graphic fiddling to hide 
the actual time signatures (which would be literally on top of each 
other once I superimposed the staves), and then put in a new graphic 
composite time signature for display and printing?
  To that end, can anyone please tell me how to create a temporary 
extra staff?  I searched and searched in the help files on line and the 
2009 manual for this, but couldn't find it - only a method for adding an 
extra staff for the whole piece, with bar-lines that don't join those in 
the two main staves, which I don't think is what I want - it seemed 
intended for adding a new instrument to the ensemble.  Or do I have to 
do that, then remove the extra staff somehow from most systems that 
don't need it, and find a way of joining the bar-lines?
  Thank you.

Michael Edwards.



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Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Robert Patterson]

I don't agree it is "very complicated". You can achieve the result you want
(mid-measure keys/timesigs) using a few extra steps. The result is robust
and works exactly as you would wish it to, including playback.

Finale does permit e.g. 3/8 in RH and 9/16 in LH, where the barlines line
up. (I don't understand what you mean by 9/19 meter.) It will even playback
correctly. Check out Independent Time Signature in the staff dialog box.
Where Finale truly presents "very complicated" challenges is if you want
different meters with different barlines in different staves. (Think
Charles Ives for example.) Then there really is a great deal of tedium to
accomplish it.


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 8:55 PM, Michael Edwards 
wrote:

>   That is rather disappointing and quite surprising to me, that
> these things can be accomplished only with a lot of very complicated
> fiddling around.  I need to do all those three things moderately often
> in the music I compose.
>   Key signature changes inside a bar are surely common enough that
> they should be a standard feature of a program like Finale.  Perhaps one
> day they will add it.  Repeat signs inside bars are just as common, too.
>   Time signature changes inside bars aren't, I suppose - but the
> Beethoven example I gave was not just a sloppy practice of a composer
> notorious for his untidy manuscripts, but entirely, completely logical
> in the context.  The 12/16 and 6/8 sections both start and finish with
> half-bars, and so the parts of the bars match up exactly.
>   So I suppose if I ask whether it is possible to have two different
> time signatures in the same staff (such as 3/8 and 9/19 which can be
> found together in the left hand near the end of Scriabin's 10 Piano
> Sonata), I'm going to be told it's completely impossible, even in
> Finale, am I?
>
>
> [SN jef chippewa wrote:]
>
> >not really "mid-bar" change, more like butt-splicing different pieces
> >together, each with anacrusis and final "incomplete" measure.  but
> >yeah achieved in the same multi-step tasks in finale.
>
>   I don't think I agree that it's not really mid-bar.  If you look
> at the passage, the half-bar before a change from 12/16 to 6/8 contains
> six semiquavers, grouped into two groups of three, and the half-bar
> after the change contains six semiquavers, grouped into three groups of
> two.  It all adds up and I can think of no better way of notating that
> change.  (The tempo changes, but I don't think that damages the logic of
> the situation.)
>
>
> >thanks for the reminder that i haven't listened to this piece in
> > awhile :P
>
>   I first heard this sonata (no. 31 in Ab major, Op. 110) along with
> its predecessor, no. 30 in E major, Op. 109, as a child, on an L.P.
> played by Iso Elinson back around 1965, and it was like a window into a
> new world.  I was obsessed with Beethoven, and this record was one of
> the earliest ones I got.  I think the general style of notation I use
> was probably modelled on the Schirmer edition of the complete sonatas I
> got as a child, although I've done certain things differently to
> accommodate more modern musical styles than Beethoven used.
>
> Michael Edwards.
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Michael Edwards]

  That is rather disappointing and quite surprising to me, that 
these things can be accomplished only with a lot of very complicated 
fiddling around.  I need to do all those three things moderately often 
in the music I compose.
  Key signature changes inside a bar are surely common enough that 
they should be a standard feature of a program like Finale.  Perhaps one 
day they will add it.  Repeat signs inside bars are just as common, too.
  Time signature changes inside bars aren't, I suppose - but the 
Beethoven example I gave was not just a sloppy practice of a composer 
notorious for his untidy manuscripts, but entirely, completely logical 
in the context.  The 12/16 and 6/8 sections both start and finish with 
half-bars, and so the parts of the bars match up exactly.
  So I suppose if I ask whether it is possible to have two different 
time signatures in the same staff (such as 3/8 and 9/19 which can be 
found together in the left hand near the end of Scriabin's 10 Piano 
Sonata), I'm going to be told it's completely impossible, even in 
Finale, am I?


[SN jef chippewa wrote:]

>not really "mid-bar" change, more like butt-splicing different pieces
>together, each with anacrusis and final "incomplete" measure.  but
>yeah achieved in the same multi-step tasks in finale.

  I don't think I agree that it's not really mid-bar.  If you look 
at the passage, the half-bar before a change from 12/16 to 6/8 contains 
six semiquavers, grouped into two groups of three, and the half-bar 
after the change contains six semiquavers, grouped into three groups of 
two.  It all adds up and I can think of no better way of notating that 
change.  (The tempo changes, but I don't think that damages the logic of 
the situation.)


>thanks for the reminder that i haven't listened to this piece in 
> awhile :P

  I first heard this sonata (no. 31 in Ab major, Op. 110) along with 
its predecessor, no. 30 in E major, Op. 109, as a child, on an L.P. 
played by Iso Elinson back around 1965, and it was like a window into a 
new world.  I was obsessed with Beethoven, and this record was one of 
the earliest ones I got.  I think the general style of notation I use 
was probably modelled on the Schirmer edition of the complete sonatas I 
got as a child, although I've done certain things differently to 
accommodate more modern musical styles than Beethoven used.

Michael Edwards.


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Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[SN jef chippewa]

not really "mid-bar" change, more like butt-splicing different pieces 
together, each with anacrusis and final "incomplete" measure.  but 
yeah achieved in the same multi-step tasks in finale.

thanks for the reminder that i haven't listened to this piece in awhile :P


>   Change time signature.  I realize this is unusual, but I think it
>can make sense in certain situations.  For example, it can be found
>several times in Beethoven's 31st Piano Sonata, Op. 110, where, in the
>last movement, 12/16 changes to 6/8 mid-bar, then back and forth another
>couple of times, always mid-bar:
>
>http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP51805-PMLP01488-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_154_Op_110.pdf

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Re: [Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[David H. Bailey]

On 8/17/2017 4:52 AM, Michael Edwards wrote:
>In my early attempts to transcribe music (already written) into
> Finale, I am finding myself wanting to do several things in the middle
> of a bar which Finale appears, by default, to do only between bars.  If
> anyone knows how to do these, I would be grateful for any hints.  I
> cannot seem to find information on how to do these in the help pages, or
> even any evidence that they can be done within bars.
> 
> 
> 1.
>Change key signature.  So far, I have found out only how to do it
> between bars.  And is it possible to change the default double-bar for a
> between-bars key signature change that seems to be the default?
> 
> 2.
>Change time signature.  I realize this is unusual, but I think it
> can make sense in certain situations.  For example, it can be found
> several times in Beethoven's 31st Piano Sonata, Op. 110, where, in the
> last movement, 12/16 changes to 6/8 mid-bar, then back and forth another
> couple of times, always mid-bar:
> 
> 
> http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP51805-PMLP01488-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_154_Op_110.pdf
> 
> 3.
>Put opening or closing repeat marks (or a mark containing both the
> end of a repeat and the start of a new one) - possibly also in
> conjunction with first- and second-time bars for the repeat that is
> finishing.
> 
> 
>Are there any ways of doing these things inside a bar?  In all
> cases, it is far preferable if it plays back correctly - but if this is
> impossible, correct notation is in the end paramount.  But I am willing
> to do things a harder way if they will also play back correctly.
>Thank you.
> 

To accomplish any of those three things what you have to do is to create 
two separate bars.  You can make it seem like it's the middle of a bar 
by changing the time signature appropriately and then selecting "Use 
Different Time Signature For Display" and setting that to the current 
time signature for that section of the piece.  Then in each of the new 
bars you can create what you wish to do.  Playback will be correct.

For example, if the piece or section is in 4/4 and you want a repeat 
sign after beat 2 you can select that measure and change the time 
signature to 2/4 but choose "Use Different Time Signature For Display" 
and set that to be 4/4.  The result is two bars where you can place 
repeat signs and time signatures and key signatures as you wish.  If you 
want three beats before the change or repeat sign and one beat after the 
change or repeat sign, then change one of the measures into 3/4 and the 
next one into 1/4.

The mark you mention that displays both the end of a repeated section 
plus the start of a new repeated section is actually two different 
repeat signs the way Finale works.

To hide the barline (if you don't want the double-bar to show, for 
example, and there's no repeat sign you want to place) you can define a 
staff style that has the "barlines" box unchecked under "Items To 
Display" and then apply that staff style to the measure before the key 
change.

I know of no other way to get Finale not to display the double bar at 
key changes.  If it's possible I hope someone will chime in with the answer.


-- 
*
David H. Bailey
dhbaile...@comcast.net
http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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[Finale] Things to be done in the middle of a bar.

[Michael Edwards]

  In my early attempts to transcribe music (already written) into 
Finale, I am finding myself wanting to do several things in the middle 
of a bar which Finale appears, by default, to do only between bars.  If 
anyone knows how to do these, I would be grateful for any hints.  I 
cannot seem to find information on how to do these in the help pages, or 
even any evidence that they can be done within bars.


1.
  Change key signature.  So far, I have found out only how to do it 
between bars.  And is it possible to change the default double-bar for a 
between-bars key signature change that seems to be the default?

2.
  Change time signature.  I realize this is unusual, but I think it 
can make sense in certain situations.  For example, it can be found 
several times in Beethoven's 31st Piano Sonata, Op. 110, where, in the 
last movement, 12/16 changes to 6/8 mid-bar, then back and forth another 
couple of times, always mid-bar:

   
http://hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/a3/IMSLP51805-PMLP01488-Beethoven_Werke_Breitkopf_Serie_16_No_154_Op_110.pdf

3.
  Put opening or closing repeat marks (or a mark containing both the 
end of a repeat and the start of a new one) - possibly also in 
conjunction with first- and second-time bars for the repeat that is 
finishing.


  Are there any ways of doing these things inside a bar?  In all 
cases, it is far preferable if it plays back correctly - but if this is 
impossible, correct notation is in the end paramount.  But I am willing 
to do things a harder way if they will also play back correctly.
  Thank you.

Michael Edwards.


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