Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
At 11:48 PM -0800 12/2/11, Mark D Lew wrote: Also, I would further suggest that correct hyphenation per standard hyphenation rules is occasionally not the best choice. Hyphenation in vocal music should above all serve the singer. Standard hyphenation will usually do that, but I've run across a few cases where I deliberately made a different choice. (I'd give an example but I can't think of one off the top of my head. The basic idea is that if the notes are long, or across a page break, the singer is going to see only one half of the word, and you want to avoid a hyphenation which will even momentarily tempt the singer into guessing the wrong vowel. Even if they'll still see it in time to not make a mistake, it's a distraction, and choral music especially needs to communicate as quickly as possible so as to let the singers be less buried in their books.) I agree with Mark in principle, but in practice it can be a real can of worms! The problem he cites with English words in long melismas is a real one, simply because in English each vowel had a number of possible pronunciations, unlike several other common languages, and the singer has to decide which one to use right at the beginning of the word. But it can create just as much confusion to creatively mis-hyphenate words in an ATTEMPT to write down what you think singers should sing. I run into this fairly often in my Vocal/Choral Arranging class, especially when the students are instrumentalists and not used to seeing vocal music or thinking about hyphenation. They try to write it the way it sounds, and end up with gobbledegook that would confound ANY singers trying to sightread it! The fact is that hyphenation (for the printed word) is one thing, but the choice and placement of phonemes (individual sounds) in the spoken or sung word is often something quite different. Trying to transcribe Sinatra's songs is VERY instructive. Not only does he break the melodic rhythm into groupings that are very difficult to notate, he divides the words into individual phonemes, not syllables as we know them, and any attempt to actually write them down the way he sings them turns the words into some kind of Esperanto!!! (Actually Esperanto would be easier, since each vowel would have only one sound!) I've been writing vocal charts for upwards of 60 years, and I strongly advise using normal, dictionary hyphenation in ALMOST every case. It comes under better the devil you know ... And for anyone who hasn't worked with lyrics in other languages, guess what: the hyphenation rules are completely different!!! But there ARE rules. And I think my Mom knew them all. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music School of Performing Arts Cinema College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön. (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!) --Johannes Brahms ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 12:40 PM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: I've been writing vocal charts for upwards of 60 years, and I strongly advise using normal, dictionary hyphenation in ALMOST every case. It comes under better the devil you know ... John Excellent advice - I agree 100%. And every time I think I know the rules I am surprised by some exception. I try to find authoritative sources whenever possible. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: And every time I think I know the rules I am surprised by some exception. I try to find authoritative sources whenever possible. Maybe it's because this is close to my specialty, but I think I would dissent from this. The authoritative sources do, in fact, get it right. But I think we should strive to understand why words are hyphenated the way they are so that we too can come up with the best answer, rather than simply appeal to authority. Otherwise, how do you know which sources are authoritative? It's the same idea as rules of harmony. The rules are not arbitrary. They were written for good reason. They stand as guidelines and reminders to us of what that good reason is. But when you follow those rules, you do so because they work and help you achieve the results you want, not just because the book said so. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Ok, it is very simple, then. I am enough of an authority in harmony to trust my own judgement. The same is NOT true when it comes to language, so I look for other authority. If I find disagreement among such authorities on hyphenation, I'll do what I like. But your parallel is not an equal one. If an informed composer chooses to break the rules of harmony, the sound will be readily apparent. If he/she breaks the rules of hyphenation, the sound will be apparent only if it is for some clear and obvious purpose - but the choir director or singer may easily ignore odd divisions and sing it normally - not so with harmony. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:03 PM, Mark D Lew markd...@earthlink.net wrote: On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Raymond Horton wrote: And every time I think I know the rules I am surprised by some exception. I try to find authoritative sources whenever possible. Maybe it's because this is close to my specialty, but I think I would dissent from this. The authoritative sources do, in fact, get it right. But I think we should strive to understand why words are hyphenated the way they are so that we too can come up with the best answer, rather than simply appeal to authority. Otherwise, how do you know which sources are authoritative? It's the same idea as rules of harmony. The rules are not arbitrary. They were written for good reason. They stand as guidelines and reminders to us of what that good reason is. But when you follow those rules, you do so because they work and help you achieve the results you want, not just because the book said so. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
On Dec 4, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: But your parallel is not an equal one. If an informed composer chooses to break the rules of harmony, the sound will be readily apparent. If he/she breaks the rules of hyphenation, the sound will be apparent only if it is for some clear and obvious purpose - but the choir director or singer may easily ignore odd divisions and sing it normally - not so with harmony. Good point. I suppose a better comparison would be the typographic rules of engraving, which I will generally follow but would not hesitate to break for the sake of better clarity and communication. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Much better! The Poulenc Sonata for Horn, Trumpet, and Trombone is full of jokes, obvious and not so, in the outer movements. These include a few in the notation, of which my favorite are a couple of examples of syncopated rests. Once I told an audience to be sure and listen for them. I was so saddened to see a new engraving of it that eliminated them, as well as a few other features-not-bugs. Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC Composer, Arranger VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Mark D Lew markd...@earthlink.net wrote: On Dec 4, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Raymond Horton wrote: But your parallel is not an equal one. If an informed composer chooses to break the rules of harmony, the sound will be readily apparent. If he/she breaks the rules of hyphenation, the sound will be apparent only if it is for some clear and obvious purpose - but the choir director or singer may easily ignore odd divisions and sing it normally - not so with harmony. Good point. I suppose a better comparison would be the typographic rules of engraving, which I will generally follow but would not hesitate to break for the sake of better clarity and communication. mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
On Dec 2, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Doug Walter wrote: On the subject of hyphenation, since whatever rules apply have always been a mystery to me and I used to sit with a dictionary in my lap as I entered lyrics, the Dictionary widget included with the Mac Dashboard turns out to be pretty easy and convenient. Once you have it open, it stays selected when you return to Dashboard from Finale, and you can just type the word in, hit Return and, like a regular dictionary, you see both the definition and the hyphenation. No hyphenation algorithm can be perfect because some words have identical spelling but hyphenate differently depending on how they are pronounced. (For example, pre-sent vs pres-ent.) Most standard hyphenation dictionaries are incomplete anyway, since they won't hyphenate short words or one-letter syllables (eg, ev-er, e-ven), which is necessary for music. Also, I would further suggest that correct hyphenation per standard hyphenation rules is occasionally not the best choice. Hyphenation in vocal music should above all serve the singer. Standard hyphenation will usually do that, but I've run across a few cases where I deliberately made a different choice. (I'd give an example but I can't think of one off the top of my head. The basic idea is that if the notes are long, or across a page break, the singer is going to see only one half of the word, and you want to avoid a hyphenation which will even momentarily tempt the singer into guessing the wrong vowel. Even if they'll still see it in time to not make a mistake, it's a distraction, and choral music especially needs to communicate as quickly as possible so as to let the singers be less buried in their books.) mdl ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
As far as I know click assignment is aware of ties. When I type into the score I type an extra space for the tied note (the note at the end of the tie). On 02/12/2011, at 10:03, Richard Huggins wrote: Finalle 2012 Mac For all the new stuff they do sure wish MM would improve lots of existing things, one of them being CLick Assignment and esp Option- Click (Mac) where all the words go in at once. When they blow right past slurs and put a word there anyway, it's frustrating to ffix it with a series of Shift Right and Shift Left actions. Is there a secret I never learned about how to make if honor slurs and go on to the next available note? RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Well, maybe I'm wrong about click assignment, in which case you need to add an extra space for each tied note in the text window. On 02/12/2011, at 10:30, Haroldo Mauro wrote: As far as I know click assignment is aware of ties. When I type into the score I type an extra space for the tied note (the note at the end of the tie). On 02/12/2011, at 10:03, Richard Huggins wrote: Finalle 2012 Mac For all the new stuff they do sure wish MM would improve lots of existing things, one of them being CLick Assignment and esp Option- Click (Mac) where all the words go in at once. When they blow right past slurs and put a word there anyway, it's frustrating to ffix it with a series of Shift Right and Shift Left actions. Is there a secret I never learned about how to make if honor slurs and go on to the next available note? RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Click assignment is TIE aware, but not SLUR aware. Type Into Score is neither, as you said. I do quite a bit of this, and indeed I wish there was a keyboard shortcut for Right Shift and Left Shift (maybe the comma and period keys, like for cresc and dim in the Smart Shape tool?) If I am missing ONE hyphenation in my click-assigned lyrics, I have a long, multi-click process to go through to get the syllables right. I have submitted a request about this, and suggest you do the same, so that it moves up the to do list. Christopher On Fri Dec 2, at FridayDec 2 7:30 AM, Haroldo Mauro wrote: As far as I know click assignment is aware of ties. When I type into the score I type an extra space for the tied note (the note at the end of the tie). On 02/12/2011, at 10:03, Richard Huggins wrote: Finalle 2012 Mac For all the new stuff they do sure wish MM would improve lots of existing things, one of them being CLick Assignment and esp Option- Click (Mac) where all the words go in at once. When they blow right past slurs and put a word there anyway, it's frustrating to ffix it with a series of Shift Right and Shift Left actions. Is there a secret I never learned about how to make if honor slurs and go on to the next available note? RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Haroldo, I never thot of extra spaces. I tried it and by gum it works. On the Mac, Option-SPacebar inserts a forced space. So, EX: Be-hold the rose, where hold spans three notes, would be entered hold (os) (os) the Rose. Note it's a common space (no Option held down) then Option-Space etc. ThAnks much! Christopher, exactly! A fast key combo would make SUCH a difference! Along with that, the ability to use arrow keys and a key combo to cause the next word to be entered, thus eliminating mouse positioning, would be glorious. Lastly would someone please create a word-dividing app, putting the hyphens in the right place in one fell swoop? ! RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Richard Huggins huggin...@yahoo.comwrote: .. A fast key combo would make SUCH a difference! Along with that, the ability to use arrow keys and a key combo to cause the next word to be entered, thus eliminating mouse positioning, would be glorious. Lastly would someone please create a word-dividing app, putting the hyphens in the right place in one fell swoop? ! RH I second those motions, heartily! RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Oops...back to the drawing board..I ran into a problem on how to make it work withIN a word where you've got hypens to deal with. I tried a forced hyphen but didn't think that would work and it didn't.. What DID work but with a problem attached was Sav-(fp)-ior -- that's two regular hypens on each side of a forced space (fp) The word then worked but I have two hyphens where only one is desired, and if I could mke oe invisible I'd still have to move the remaining hypjen to make it look right. I havent seen a way to move a hyphen, and after all would that be less work than typing the lyrics and abandoning CLick Assignment? RH On Dec 2, 2011, at 9:11 AM, Richard Huggins wrote: Haroldo, I never thot of extra spaces. I tried it and by gum it works. On the Mac, Option-SPacebar inserts a forced space. So, EX: Be-hold the rose, where hold spans three notes, would be entered hold (os) (os) the Rose. Note it's a common space (no Option held down) then Option-Space etc. ThAnks much! Christopher, exactly! A fast key combo would make SUCH a difference! Along with that, the ability to use arrow keys and a key combo to cause the next word to be entered, thus eliminating mouse positioning, would be glorious. Lastly would someone please create a word-dividing app, putting the hyphens in the right place in one fell swoop? ! RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Adding extra spaces doesn't work for click assignment, as Finale seems to ignore them. It also treats carriage returns and multiple carriage returns as a space, moving to the next note as if it were a space. The opt-spacebar on Mac will NOT add space the way you might think! It will add a space that Finale thinks is a normal character, attaching to a note or allowing two words on the same note. I think the shift right is our best option, I just want a way to do it faster. For hyphenation, I use this website: http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/ You have to check the results, as it doesn't always return what you think is right (bless-ed instead of blessed: pleas-ed instead of pleased, for example) and it doesn't seem to know contractions (hadn't comes back undivided), and it doesn't know slang (gonna and havin' stump it) as well as many proper names don't get divided. But it's great! Christopher - Original Message - From: Richard Huggins huggin...@yahoo.com Date: Friday, December 2, 2011 10:26 am Subject: Re: [Finale] Click Assignment To: finale@shsu.edu Haroldo, I never thot of extra spaces. I tried it and by gum it works. On the Mac, Option-SPacebar inserts a forced space. So, EX: Be- hold the rose, where hold spans three notes, would be entered hold (os) (os) the Rose. Note it's a common space (no Option held down) then Option-Space etc. ThAnks much! Christopher, exactly! A fast key combo would make SUCH a difference! Along with that, the ability to use arrow keys and a key combo to cause the next word to be entered, thus eliminating mouse positioning, would be glorious. Lastly would someone please create a word-dividing app, putting the hyphens in the right place in one fell swoop? ! RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
I've wanted this for years! Thank you so much! Raymond Horton For hyphenation, I use this website: http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/ You have to check the results, as it doesn't always return what you think is right (bless-ed instead of blessed: pleas-ed instead of pleased, for example) and it doesn't seem to know contractions (hadn't comes back undivided), and it doesn't know slang (gonna and havin' stump it) as well as many proper names don't get divided. But it's great! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
Thanks! This is useful. -Randolph Peters On 2011-12-02, at 11:16 AM, christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: For hyphenation, I use this website: http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click Assignment
I use this online tool for English hyphenation occasionally because it's fast and requires little tweaking of the results (also, it can handle very long text blocks): http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/ There are some extant hyphenation databases available for free online, but it takes a while to sort through the junk to find them. The older ones are mostly TeX or similar files. Matthew Hindson's work is still available, too: http://www.hindson.com.au/wordpress/free/free-english-language-hyphenation-dictionary Circa 1999, when I was using Finale on a Mac and engraving a huge number of pieces in Latin, I created a word base to do this very thing to help out Philip Aker while he was developing his TextEditor plugin. Later on Giovanni (Doro?) sent some updates to the word base, too. http://home.swipnet.se/~w-52653/Finale/plugins.html#TEXT_EDITOR but none of the links work anymore. I have a copy somewhere. I'll try to locate it. Or you might find someone with an old version of Finale that installed it as a freebie around 2000-01 version? It went standalone at some point. Hope something of all this helps! -Cecil Rigby Clemson, SC - Original Message - From: Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Click Assignment On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Richard Huggins huggin...@yahoo.comwrote: .. A fast key combo would make SUCH a difference! Along with that, the ability to use arrow keys and a key combo to cause the next word to be entered, thus eliminating mouse positioning, would be glorious. Lastly would someone please create a word-dividing app, putting the hyphens in the right place in one fell swoop? ! RH I second those motions, heartily! RH ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click assignment
Christopher Smith wrote: 3) Grace note spacing was broken for a long time. It may be fixed now (I haven't checked in 2005) Actually, grace note spacing was working as designed, only it was not particularly well designed. One could say it was broken by design. In 2k5 it has been redesigned, only in my opinion it's not really any better. It just has a few more options, but the options I need are still missing. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click assignment
On Oct 30, 2004, at 7:54 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: 3) Grace note spacing was broken for a long time. It may be fixed now (I haven't checked in 2005) Actually, grace note spacing was working as designed, only it was not particularly well designed. One could say it was broken by design. In 2k5 it has been redesigned, only in my opinion it's not really any better. It just has a few more options, but the options I need are still missing. Johannes Strictly speaking, the Chromatic Transposition was working as designed, too, it was just a colossally bad design to omit chord symbol transposition. I suppose I wasn't making a distinction between faulty design and faulty implementation, as I should have. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click assignment
Although I am with you, the problem with the grace note spacing was not that the design was broken either. It was simply bad design, but design nonetheless. It took me a while to understand how grace note spacing worked, but in the end I had to admit that really it was working as designed, and the design itself sort-of made sense, too. It was still useless and impractical. I don't really believe it is much better now (as it still doesn't solve the really major problem I have with grace note spacing) but again, it is working as designed, and the design all makes sense. It's just that it still is impractical and only about 10% more useful than before. Which makes it 10% useful I guess. Johannes dhbailey wrote: In my opinion it doesn't matter if the design is broken or the implementation is broken, broken is broken. If something doesn't work as it should, so that the end users are not able to use it properly, the end result is the same -- the feature doesn't work. On the other hand, it doesn't matter what we end-users call it (feature that doesn't work properly or a bug), if the software company won't acknowledge that it's broken they don't feel they have a moral obligation to fix it. Denial that there is a problem is always easier than solving the problem. -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click assignment
Yes, this has happened regularly to me for a few versions now (since at least FinMac2003). I just clear the syllables starting with the repeated one, and re-enter with single clicks for the last measure. Christopher On Oct 29, 2004, at 5:59 AM, Stig Christensen wrote: it seems that fin 2005 MAC has some problems with this function. I use to use this function with the alt key, so a whole verse will have the text assigned but sometimes the end of the verse will have a repeated syllable for several bars, and not the text actually in the verse! Is this a part of your experience too? regards Stig ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click assignment
funny that bugs stay alive during several generations of a program! Stig Den 29/10-2004, kl. 14.36, skrev Christopher Smith: Yes, this has happened regularly to me for a few versions now (since at least FinMac2003). I just clear the syllables starting with the repeated one, and re-enter with single clicks for the last measure. Christopher On Oct 29, 2004, at 5:59 AM, Stig Christensen wrote: it seems that fin 2005 MAC has some problems with this function. I use to use this function with the alt key, so a whole verse will have the text assigned but sometimes the end of the verse will have a repeated syllable for several bars, and not the text actually in the verse! Is this a part of your experience too? regards Stig ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Click assignment
Yikes! Is this true always? How inconvenient! Bonnie On Friday, October 29, 2004, at 05:16 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Oct 29, 2004, at 8:52 AM, Stig Christensen wrote: 1) Chord symbols do not transpose when Chromatic transposition is selected. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
