Re: [Finale]

[Raymond Horton]

Which story?

RH
- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher BJ Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale]


> At 8:04 PM -0400 4/23/04, Christopher BJ Smith wrote:
> >At 7:27 PM -0400 4/23/04, Darcy James Argue wrote:
> >>An absolute must-read for anyone interested in copyright law.
> >>
> >> >>story_lessig_marapr04.html>
> >>
> >>- Darcy
> >
> >
> >Darcy,
> >
> >I get an error message
> 
> 
> Never mind. I was able to access it by going to
> 
> http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/March-April-2004/
> 
> and clicking on the story.
> 
> Very interesting read.
> 
> Christopher
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Re: [Finale] Chase from first measure not working correctly

[Raymond Horton]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Mays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> In other words, "Chase from the first measure" doesn't seem to work as
> advertised. 
> 

Never has, has it?  Frustrating.

RH
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Re: [Finale] Trombone clef in early music

[Raymond Horton]

I teach tenor clef, Bb treble clef, and usually alto clef to all my high
school students.  We do a little C treble, too.  With some we do F horn
treble, but that gets a little rebellion sometimes.

RH
- Original Message - 
From: "David H. Bailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Trombone clef in early music


> This raises a totally tangential issue -- why aren't more clefs taught
> in music lessons at an earlier point?  Why is it only those who seem
> destined for collegiate music study who ever are taught about clefs?
>
> I find my private students are usually sponges who will soak up any
> information I give them and that when the issue of transposition arises
> or alternate clefs, they learn them fairly easily.
>
> I think that by holding off and making the traditional treble/bass clef
> structure truly ingrained that many people have a much harder time
> mastering additional clefs.  I find many adults who have been playing
> bass clef all their lives are totally intimidated by the C clef.  But if
> they would only spend a little time each day playing simple exercises in
> the different clefs they would have no problem whatsoever.
>
> Just an aside to the trombone clef question.
>
> David H. Bailey
>
>
>
> John Howell wrote:
>
> > At 2:19 PM -0400 5/14/04, Andrew Stiller wrote:
> >
> >>> What's the normal clef used for the trombone in 17th century music?
> >>> Original is in C4.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Dennis
> >>>
> >>
> >> Trombonists at that time were expected to read the C clef on every
> >> line,  plus bass clef and the sub-bass clef (F clef on top line).
> >> Remember that a whole S A T B consort of trombones was in use at that
> >> time,  and  that different  instruments would be used according to the
> >> range of the piece.
> >>
> >> The soprano trb. was a rarity in the 17th c (mostly doubled choral
> >> sopranos). The alto trombone would typically be used for parts written
> >> in alto or  tenor clef, the tenor for those in tenor or bass, and the
> >> bass for those in bass or subbass.
> >>
> >> The upshot: use alto, tenor, or bass clef depending on which best fits
> >> the range of the part. No point in inflicting the subbass clef on a
> >> modern trombonist...
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Andrew Stiller
> >> Kallisti Music Press
> >
> >
> > Andrew is exactly right, and the use of alto, tenor and bass clefs for
> > alto, tenor and bass trombones lasted through the end of the 19th
> > century in orchestral music.  A more pertinent question, however, might
> > be what clefs to use for modern players.  Granted, well-prepared
> > symphony trombonists will be able to read anything you put in front of
> > them, just as horn and trumpet players will, but Concert Band, Military
> > Band, Wind Ensemble and Jazz Ensemble players do NOT, generally
> > speaking, read the C clefs.  And students will typically not read tenor
> > clef, either, unless they are studying with a teacher who makes sure
> > they do.  So it's important to identify the level of skill the players
> > you are writing for will have.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
>
> -- 
> David H. Bailey
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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[Finale] Playback in Fin2004

[Raymond Horton]

As a Windows 2004B user I hesitate to offer any advice to Mac complainees,
but to those who are staying away from 2004 because of playback hangs:

Human playback is tricky and seems to be both processor- and memory- hungry.
It can be both remarkable and aggravating.  But you don't have to be afraid
of the whole program because of it.  If it gives problems, simply TURN OFF
HUMAN PLAYBACK in the Playback Controls and use the old playback (Human
Playback:"none").   You will be no worse off, playback-wise than you were
before, but you will be able to enjoy all the other 2004 features.  The
other new playback feature is the SmartMusic Softsynth soundfont.  Again, if
it is the source of trouble, switch back to your old sound source.

Avoiding the whole program because of playback troubles is a bit like
staying out of your new house because your doorbell got stuck.  (Uhh, well,
maybe a little bit?)

RH

P.S. Here is one of MakeMusic's ever-helpful load-up hints:

"To improve Finale's performance, try the following: limit loading Plug-ins
that you use, playback without the SmartMusic Softsynth soundfont, turn off
Automatic Music Spacing and Automatic Update Layout (User beware of
side-effects!) and spacebar-click to avoid Human Playback pre-processing for
Playback."

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Re: [Finale] Re: Clefs

[Raymond Horton]

Cellists don't use alto.  Bass, tenor, and occasional uses 8ba treble.

Horns read bass clef, two different ways.

Doublebasses read bass, treble and, tenor (all 8ba).

Of course, nobody else matches trombone's four clefs.

But horns and trumpets have transpositions all over the place, of course.
Trumpeters learn to double transpose - as we discussed earlier on this
list - playing E parts on Bb trumpets - D parts on A Piccolos, etc., etc.
But only one clef!  (Actually, I think there are a few instances of bass
clef in trumpet parts.)

Ray Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra

-- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 1:27 PM
Subject: [Finale] Re: Clefs



> >This raises a totally tangential issue -- why aren't more clefs taught
> >in music lessons at an earlier point?  Why is it only those who seem
> >destined for collegiate music study who ever are taught about clefs?
>
> Question for you, David -- you play trombone, right?  Most woodwinds only
> need to know one clef.  Bassoons excepted, I suppose, and I think there
are
> some old bass clarinet parts written in F clef.  Violas need to know
treble
> and alto, and I guess cellos have to know those plus bass.  What other
> non-keyboard instrument needs to know more than one clef?
>
> I can't remember not knowing how to read a grand staff (thanks to very
> early piano lessons).  I don't know why C clef always gave me fits when I
> was studying composition in college.  I forced myself to learn it by
> singing along with the viola part in symphonies; then I noticed that a
> trombone in tenor clef, doubling a Bb trumpet at the octave, played on the
> same lines and spaces.  In our score-reading classes we'd get 18th century
> choral scores that were written in soprano, alto, and tenor clefs.
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] WinFin 2004

[Raymond Horton]

I use WinFin 2004B.  I don't use PDFs, and my Mom's Mac hates me.

I LOVE 2004.  I wouldn't give it back for anything.  It's a huge step
forward, from my perspective, at least.

The quantum leap in the expressions capabilities would have saved me dozens
of hours last year (when I was finishing a score with two narrators - the
expressions are now a huge improvement over text boxes).  Human playback has
pitfalls but opens up whole new pallets when it works (if the pitfalls are
too much, just turn it off and you are no worse off than Fin 2003).   These
are just two areas out of the many that have been improved.  It is not
perfect.  But it is a grand move ahead.

Except for the Lyric extensions.  I still miss the plugin.  But I can get
around it.

Raymond Horton
Composer, Arranger,
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra

- Original Message - 
From: "David McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 1:01 AM
Subject: [Finale] WinFin 2004


> After browsing tales of woe with Fin 2004, especially the Mac version, I
> wonder if 2004 version is a backward step. I have just received an offer
> from our Australian supplier to upgrade. Should I stay with 2003 version,
or
> is the new version worth it, and will it bring me great angst?
>
> Thanks for your advice.
>
> David McKay
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~musicke
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Grace notes aren't v-aligning in layers

[Raymond Horton]

This will probably restart some of the discussions to which you refer, but
some styles dictate that all grace note stems should be up.  See the flute
and picc grace notes in Stravinsky's "Le Sacre."

RH

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark D Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Grace notes aren't v-aligning in layers


>
> On Apr 27, 2004, at 7:23 AM, Jason Green wrote:
>
> > Fin2k3. I have two grace notes, one in layer 1, one in layer 2 on the
> > same staff. They are a third apart and have tails in opposite
> > directions. Why do the noteheads never align vertically when I respace
> > (metatool 4, Ctrl-U), even after manually positioning them...
>
> Notes line up when you do spacing because every note is defined with a
> rhythmic position in the measure.  Grace notes are the exception. A
> grace note's base horizontal position is defined as immediately to the
> left of whatever follows it, and the spacing algorithm pushes it
> further left as necessary to fit.  An upstem grace note has flag to the
> right of the notehead while a downstem grace note does not. Thus, the
> upstem grace note will be pushed further to the left.
>
> There's lots of room for improvement in the grace note algorithm,
> obviously, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Finale should always
> make them align with each other. We've had this discussion before, and
> tastes differ, but to me there are situations when they shouldn't
> align.
>
> > or better question: aside from manually, how do I get all grace notes
> > in multiple layers to line up??
>
> Not sure what you mean by "manually".  I use the Note Position special
> tool to align grace notes.
>
> I doubt it's any easier, but you also could flip all the grace note
> stems so that they match, then do spacing, then flip the stems back.
> That will align them wherever there isn't some other element affecting
> grace note spacing.
>
> mdl
>
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Re: [Finale] How do I stop playback re-articulation for tied notes?

[Raymond Horton]

Don't use the slur tool for ties!  Use it for slurs!

In Simple Entry, use the Tie thingie near the bottom (shows two notes tied
together).

Even better: in Speedy Entry (Speedy is always better), use the equal sign
to tie forward, Ctrl= to tie backwards.

Ray Horton


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:08 PM
Subject: [Finale] How do I stop playback re-articulation for tied notes?


> Hello all:
>
> I'm a fairly new user of WinFin 2004a and so far have either missed the
answer in the
> archives or the
> manual.  My tied notes are always re-articulated and it's driving me
crazy. When I have,
> for example, a
> whole note tied to a half note in 4 4 time, instead of hearing one note
for 6 beats, I
> hear one note for 4
> and another note for 2.  I'm using the slur tool to tie the two notes
together.  Is there
> another tool I
> should be using instead, or another way of entering the first note of the
group?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
>
>
> Debra Merinchuk
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] It's not only Fin and Sib!

[Raymond Horton]

I'd want to hear more about the limitations.

Ease of use is great, but Finale is easy, most of the time.  I imagine
Sibelius is, too, most of the time.  It's the times it's NOT easy to use
that is the problem.  If Overture is an easier to use, but more limited
program, I'd like to hear more about the limits.

Thanks!

Ray Horton
Composer and Arranger
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra

> --- "Williams, Jim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Friends...
> >
> > In meeting your notational and MIDI needs, Fin and
> > Sib are NOT your only choices.  You all owe Overture
> > a look if you haven't seen it (lately).
> >
> > Many tedious or kludgy processes in Finale are
> > trivial in Overture (beaming across barlines, for
> > ex.).
> > Playback is a breeze and infinitely
> > controllable--ANY dynamic can be INDIVIDUALLY or
> > UNIVERSALLY mapped to volume, velocity,or
> > modulation, with the values esaily definable.
> > Hairpins, too, work this same way!
> > Accel and rit--and any other controller info--are
> > trivial using Overture's "Graphic Window," a
> > mini-sequencer in which you can draw the info
> > without the complexity of executable shapes.
> > Moving ANYTHING on the page, including notes, is
> > trivial
> >
> > I ran some stuff by some people who hire me, and
> > they were indifferent between Overture and Finale
> > output.  Furthermore, an Ove user can map almost any
> > music font to use in Overture if (s)he desires a
> > particular look.
> >
> > I started playing with Overture when I got my copy
> > of Garritan Personal Orchestra. I had seen Overture
> > earlier when it was still a Cakewalk product and
> > dismissed it.  It is now an independent product, no
> > longer affiliated with Cakewalk, and it has improved
> > markedly.
> >
> > I don't work for them; I just want to tell people
> > that there's another major player in the game
> > besides Fin and Sib.  I understand that some houses
> > on the left coast have started doing their scores in
> > Overture 3.  I'm not abandoning Finale yet, but
> > every annoyance that comes up, and every nonsense
> > add-on that increases Finale bloat and cost, I gotta
> > wonder.
> >
> > No rhyming dictionary in Overture, no micnotator, no
> > iffy scan-in option, no auto-harmonizer, etc.
> > In their place are solid notation, a useful
> > mid-level sequencer for expressive MIDI playback,
> > seamless integration with GPO and GPO Studio,
> > reliability (no crashes in 7-8 weeks of use with
> > straight-ahead scores), etc.
> >
> > It may not do the Jef Chippewa-type stuff--graphic
> > scores, etc., but I'm not sure how many of us other
> > than Jef do that. ;-). It may--I just don't know.
> > All I know is when I loaded the program, I tried a
> > lot of the stuff that is still a PITA in Finale & it
> > was simple in Ove.
> >
> > So...just a note to tell people that there is indeed
> > another major player in the game, so don't limit
> > your universe to Fin and Sib!!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jim (Finale since 2.2 on Win 3.1)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > ATTACHMENT part 2 application/ms-tnef
> name=winmail.dat
> > ___
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> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] To beam or not to beam? (was: Basic guide to vocal

[Raymond Horton]

Like it or not, folks, Harold is exactly right about the British convention
with the tied eighths. The music makes that clear.

And Guy, if you are avoiding all choral music with modern beams, you are
missing a LOT of good music.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville United Methodist Church
(MM in Composition, University of Louisville / Master of Church Music,
Southern Baptist Seminary)

(Only 30 years experience, but a Masters degree)

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Re: [Finale] Finale 2005 development cycle?

[Raymond Horton]

I agree.  I have WinFin2003 and 2004b both loaded on my machine, and I
vastly prefer 2004.  The tremendous improvements in the Expression editor,
the possibilities with Human Playback are just two areas I can't imagine
giving up now that I'm used to having them.   When I use 2003, (to make a
file for backward compatibility for a friend) I miss the loss of the great
new features (and resent the cheapness of the friend!)

I use lyrics often, and each Finale version has had quirks with lyrics.
Years ago I learned to make it a habit to save the file after every
successful major step with lyrics (for example, just before I hit Ctrl to
auto-assign the rest of a verse).  2004 is a little less flexible with word
extensions, but this is no big deal compared with all of the improvements.
The word extensions sometimes require more tweaking than did 2003.  Lyrics
are so much improved over just a few versions back that they always seem a
breeze to me.

Ray Horton
Bass Trombonist
(And arranger and composer, when they let me)
Louisville Orchestra

- Original Message - 
From: "Harold Owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Finale 2005 development cycle?


> Arron Sherber in response to Eric Dannewitz writes:
>
> >Are you saying that you don't work with Finale heavily enough to
> >experience the bugs that have been reported, or are you saying that
> >you can't reproduce these bugs even when you try?
> >
> >If the former, then I think there's really not much point in your
> >commenting on this topic. It's like someone saying, "Oh, I don't
> >mind that fifth gear in that car grinds horribly -- I never go above
> >third."
> >
> >And since we are talking about bugs which we and Coda have
> >reproduced and confirmed, I don't believe the latter.
>
> Dear folks,
>
> My point in commenting on this topic is I am finding MacFin2004 a
> productive tool in spite of the bugs described by the most frustrated
> complainers. I use it every day for a variety of scores - solo songs,
> choral music, chamber music, band and orchestral scores with up to 30
> staves. I use staff sets for large scores. I know how to enter lyrics
> without encountering problems. I know that it can be dangerous to do
> a lot of work on multiple files open at once. I'm just a little
> annoyed by having to wade through pages and pages of complaints.
> IMHO, I don't think I'm in the minority here. People tend to sound
> off more often when they are frustrated than when they are generally
> satisfied. We are doing Sibelius and other scoring applications a
> great service by filling our list with so much negative verbiage.
>
> However, I do appreciate those of you who take the time to report
> bugs to us - once or twice even - and who take the initiative to
> report them to Coda, which I have done myself as a service to the
> company - since I started using Finale with Version 1.0.
>
> End of sermon.
>
> Hal
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Harold Owen
> 2830 Emerald St., Eugene, OR 97403
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Visit my web site at:
> http://uoregon.edu/~hjowen
> FAX: (509) 461-3608
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Re: [Finale] Articulation tool

[Raymond Horton]

Then, for the last 5 or 10 months, you've both missed the delightful
possibilities of Human Playback, the ability to make a wav file for a CD in
seconds, plus all the major improvements in text blocks, expressions, all
because you've been scared off by reports of a few bugs that haven't slowed
many of us down a bit.  And that's a shame.

Finale 2004 is the best notation software ever made.  I have no doubt that
2005 will be imperfect, but will be even better.  That's the pattern.

Ray Horton
Bass Trombonist
(And arranger and composer, when they let me)
Louisville Orchestra

- Original Message - 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> "Even if I had the cash, I wouldn't upgrade, after the endless woes I've
> heard about it on this list!"
>
> I'm afraid I feel the same way.
>
> All the best,
>
> Lawrence
>
> "þaes ofereode - þisses swa  maeg"
>
> http://lawrenceyates.co.uk
>
>
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Re: [Finale] OT: typographic standards

[Raymond Horton]

"Rendezvous?"  Great word.  Great possibilities.  Quite romantic.

RBH

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark D Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] OT: typographic standards


> On Jul 7, 2004, at 5:28 PM, Christopher Smith wrote:
> 
> > Or "rendezvous" in English carrying distincty romantic implications, 
> > while in French it is any ordinary appointment.
> 
> Really?  That's news to me.  I don't think of "rendezvous" carrying 
> romantic implications at all.
> 
> To me it suggests either trade or military.
> 
> mdl
> 
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Re: [Finale] playing it in

[Raymond Horton]

> 4) Finale's quantization routine (as most quantization routines are) is
> very strict -- if you set it to recognize nothing smaller than 16th
> notes, that's what you'll get, even if the organist plays a 32nd-note
> run.  On the other hand, if you set it to recognize 32nd notes, it may
> well interpret 8ths as dotted-16th-note/32nd-rest combinations if the
> organist plays staccato.

The best solution for different rhythmic passages like this is can be to
quantize the piece more than once, as separate files, and copy and paste
from each.

RBH
- Original Message - 
From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] playing it in


> Eden - Lawrence D. wrote:
>
> > Listers,
> >
> > I am sure that many of you have done it...and I am hoping that you can
> > help me learn how to create an organ part to an existing arrangement, by
> > having the organist play his improvisation.
> >
> > I work with an organist who has a MIDI IN/OUT on the sanctuary organ
> > in his church.  How can I get his improvised organ part into my
> > arrangement?
> >
> > Do I need to bring my computer to the church?  Ouch!
> >
> > Suggestions, please, and many thanks.
> >
>
> If the organ has a disk drive in it and can record performances as midi
> sequences, you only need to have him record it and then bring the floppy
> disk to your computer.
>
> If the organ doesn't have a disk drive, you'll need to have some sort of
> device to record the midi data, either your computer, or a notebook
> computer with a midi interface and sequencer software, or a midi
> recorder such as the Yamaha MDF3 or the QY100 or some such portable
device.
>
> HOWEVER, before thinking you'll be able to magically get his
> improvisation into Finale for neat printing, you need to take some
> things into account:
>
> 1) the beat source will need to be rock steady (no romantic ebbing and
> flowing of the tempo) or Finale won't interpret it correctly;
> 2) Finale's midi import isn't very good at complex rhythms such as
> nested tuplets;
> 3) Finale won't necessarily interpret the staff breaks as the organist
> wants them to be, unless the organ outputs the midi data from the
> various manuals and pedals to different midi tracks.  But even then, if
> the organist is playing with both hands on the same manual, sometimes
> middle C may be played as part of a left-hand passage and sometimes as
> part of a right hand passage and Finale won't be able to differentiate,
> so it will always appear on whichever staff you determine by where you
> set the staff-break-point;
> 4) Finale's quantization routine (as most quantization routines are) is
> very strict -- if you set it to recognize nothing smaller than 16th
> notes, that's what you'll get, even if the organist plays a 32nd-note
> run.  On the other hand, if you set it to recognize 32nd notes, it may
> well interpret 8ths as dotted-16th-note/32nd-rest combinations if the
> organist plays staccato.
>
> Best will be if you can bring a computer that has Finale installed on it
> to church and experiment with all of this to find what combination of
> settings will work best for your situation.
>
> It probably can be done with experimentation, but success is not
> guaranteed.  Be willing to spend a lot of time to get things just right,
> and realize that you may never get them right.
>
>
>
> -- 
> David H. Bailey
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Re: [Finale] Accidentals in twelve-tone music...

[Raymond Horton]

You are getting too concerned here about a very small matter.  The oboe line
is very simple to read as is, with the F# - F nat.  Use enharmonics when
they make sense or make the line significantly easier, but no need to make
things MORE complicated.

Ray Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra

- Original Message - 
From: "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Accidentals in twelve-tone music...


> I agree absolutely with Andrew, but I do have a question about a tricky
> situation I often run into in these cases.
>
> Let's say we have a flute and an oboe that begin a phrase in dead
> unison, and then split off.  For example:
>
> FLUTE:  C - C# - F# - E - A - G#
> OBOE:  C - C# - F# - F nat. - C nat. - D
>
> The oboe part would be easier to read if it were spelled with flats:
>
> OBOE: C - Db - Gb - F - C - D
>
> But then the unison with the flute for the first three notes is
> obscured.
>
> My preference so far has been to write unisons as unisons, even if that
> results in less-than-optimal spelling for some players in some cases.
> But I'm curious how others feel about this.
>
> - Darcy
>
> -
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Brooklyn, NY
>
> On 18 Jul, 2004, at 10:28 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jul 17, 2004, at 9:18 PM, Taris L Flashpaw wrote:
> >
> >> I keep hearing my old composition prof in the back of my head saying
> >> that I should spell intervals as diatonically as possible (ie: write
> >> G-Bb instead of G-A#). What I need to know is:
> >>  1. Is this a good practice to follow?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >>  does it matter so much for a pianist or an oboist, for example?
> >
> > Yes. It's just plain easier to read.
> >
> >>
> >>  2. If this is a practice to be adopted, should it be followed
> >> between staves of a two-staff part (like piano)?
> >
> > Intervallic simplicity is more important within  a staff than betw.
> > staves, so if eliminating an augmented third between staves results in
> > a diminished fourth within one of the staves, don't do it. But if no
> > such trade-off is involved, sure, simplify the interstaff intervals
> > too.
> >
> > Same for full scores, I'd say: after all, conductors have to read the
> > music too.
> >
> > Andrew Stiller
> > Kallisti Music Press
> > http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/
> > ___
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Re: [Finale] Accidentals in twelve-tone music...

[Raymond Horton]

I _strongly_ doubt that the composer's thoughts will translate differently
through the performer written as a augmented 2nd rather than a minor 3rd.

This would be easy to test.  Set up performers behind a screen, have them
play several examples, notated several different ways, played by several
different performers, have them taken down by several musicians in dictation
(or have tonal observations written down, or have notes taken in any way you
choose).  If there is a heard difference, statistically proven, between
G -A# and G - Bb, etc., I'll eat my hat in front of you and everybody else
on the list.

Write it G - Bb and it will be played or sung correctly the first time,
every time.  Isn't that what we all want to hear?

Ray Horton
Bass Trombonist
Occasional Arranger, Composer
Louisville Orchestra

- Original Message - 
From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Accidentals in twelve-tone music...


> Taris L Flashpaw wrote:
> > Hi all!
> > Lately I've become rather heavily interested in serialism and
> > pantonality (a la Second Viennese School). And as I write, I keep
> > hearing my old composition prof in the back of my head saying that I
> > should spell intervals as diatonically as possible (ie: write G-Bb
> > instead of G-A#). What I need to know is:
> > 1. Is this a good practice to follow? I mean, vocalists will need the
> > recognizable intervals (minor third instead of augmented second), but
> > does it matter so much for a pianist or an oboist, for example? I would
> > think it easier to write all accidentals as either flats or sharps for
> > sake of unity.
> >
> > 2. If this is a practice to be adopted, should it be followed between
> > staves of a two-staff part (like piano)?
> >
>
> I think that what you write should reflect your idea in the part.  If
> you perceive it as an augmented second, you should write it G-A#, but if
> you're thinking of it as a minor third, you should write it G-Bb.
>
> I wouldn't worry about what your performer may or may not expect. Write
> it in the way you think makes your meaning most clear.  Good musicians
> will be able to perform it however it's written and bad musicians won't
> be able to perform it no matter what.
>
> Your question about the piano should receive the same answer -- don't
> write it only for simplification, if you are perceiving it as G-A# in
> one staff and at another time are perceiving it as G-Bb in the other
> staff, that's how you should write it.
>
> I would NEVER write the accidentals as all sharps or all flats simply
> for the sake of unity.  Write the accidentals as you feel they best
> describe the musical motion.
>
> Just my 12-tones'-worth.
>
> -- 
> David H. Bailey
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Re: [Finale] "Crazy For You" full score?

[Raymond Horton]

I've played "My Fair Lady" twice - once in high school, with the old MS
parts, and once, about ten years ago, with the Kentucky Opera Association
(as a regular opera production in the fall-spring season, for some odd
reason), with the typeset parts, which were, as you say, FULL of mistakes.

The Kentucky Opera had an unusually large number of rehearsals for the
production, giving us plenty of time to pencil in hundreds of corrections in
the parts.  Despite the standard directions from the publisher to erase all
marks before returning, our librarian said he was going to call and ask for
permission to leave them, since it was a professional production and we had
found so many mistakes.  My guess was it didn't do any lasting good.

I prefer the MS parts, if that's all the care they take with the new ones.
It's a real shame, since they could be corrected so easily on somebody's
computer.  Nobody cares.

Raymond Horton,
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra

>... The orchestral parts for "My Fair Lady"
> are--surpise!--actually typeset, but still have lots of errors and a
> great many notations that do NOT match the piano-conductor and do NOT
> match other books.  The typesetting is great:  more notes per page,
> easier to read, fewer page turns.  The proofreading still leaves much
> to be desired, and of course NOBODY ever compiles and sends out lists
> of errata, so every production has to reinvent the wheel.
>
> John
>
>
> -- 
> John & Susie Howell
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] "Crazy For You" full score?

[Raymond Horton]

Whether the new "My Fair Lady" set was done from the old parts doesn't
matter - they were done very sloppily and full of oddball mistakes that were
not in the MS parts.

I have a memory for such things.  The first time I played it (1970) was a
memorable experience for me - I was brought in as a 17-year-old last-minute
hired gun to a bigger high school and was paid real money just to play
trombone (COOL), and I still remember many of the parts note for note.  And
note for note they were not, in the typeset parts - many very obvious,
dumbass, mistakes, that have been corrected in pencil and erased many times
since.  I hate it when publishers count the money and have no integrity.

RBH
- Original Message - 
From: "John Howell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] "Crazy For You" full score?


> At 5:50 PM -0400 7/23/04, Raymond Horton wrote:
> >I've played "My Fair Lady" twice - once in high school, with the old MS
> >parts, and once, about ten years ago, with the Kentucky Opera Association
> >(as a regular opera production in the fall-spring season, for some odd
> >reason), with the typeset parts, which were, as you say, FULL of
mistakes.
> >
> >[snip]
> >I prefer the MS parts, if that's all the care they take with the new
ones.
> >It's a real shame, since they could be corrected so easily on somebody's
> >computer.  Nobody cares.
>
> But you know, I'd bet that the typesetting was done from a set of the
> manuscript parts, and not from an original full score, so all the old
> errors are perpetuated in secula seculorum!
>
> John
>
>
> -- 
> John & Susie Howell
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
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Re: [Finale] [OT] international pitch nomenclature--muddying thewaters

[Raymond Horton]

Some intentionally label larger bore Eb tubas EEb.  It makes no sense
relative to pitch nomenclature, but is an effort to differentiate bore size
only.  Undoubtedly ill-advised, causing more confusion than eliminating.

Ray Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra
(and proud owner of a nice little Pan American Eb Tuba that is worth EVERY
BIT of the 100 bucks I spent on it)

- Original Message - 
From: "Williams, Jim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: [Finale] [OT] international pitch nomenclature--muddying
thewaters


> Bass tubas are in F or Eb; BBbs and CCs are contrabass tubas.
> To make it worse, some people refer to the Eb tuba (open note a fourth
above the BBb tuba) as an EEb, but do no such thing for the F tuba a step
above the Eb. Go figure.
>
> Don't even ask about 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 as tuba sizes.
> Jim
>
> -Original Message- 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of dhbailey
> Sent: Sun 25-Jul-04 8:47
> To: Ken Moore; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [Finale] [OT] international pitch nomenclature
>
>
>
> Ken Moore wrote:
>
> > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> >>Haven't you ever had to explain to people why Tubas (which are Bb
> >>instruments) are named with 2 Bs (BBb) yet trumpets are named with 1 B
> >>(Bb) and why it appears there is only one octave between them, as
> >>normally printed yet there are really 2 octaves and trumpets should be
> >>printed bb instead of Bb?  Which is easier to say: "double-b-flat" or
> >>"b-flat-1?"  Yes, "e-flat-2" may be harder than "capital-e-flat" but
> >>nobody every says "capital-e-flat," they just say "e-flat" so the proper
> >>Helmholtz nomenclature doesn't make its way into speech anymore than the
> >>midi nomenclature does when labeling instruments.
> >
> >
> > I was very puzzled by the idea of a double B flat tuba (which is only
> > 4/3 the length of an Eb tuba) until the thought struck me that the
> > single Bb tuba was the tenor tuba or euphonium.  I never confirmed that
> > that was the origin of the name, however.
> >
> [snip]
>
> I've often heard people refer to the "bass tuba" instead of the "BBb
> tuba" which puzzled me until I learned there was a "tenor tuba" that we
> normally call the euphonium.
>
> And in speaking with musicians most of the time I refer to octaves
> relative to either middle C or their placement on the clef, as you
> mention, not using either pitch labeling system.
>
> So I refer to "A above middle C" rather than A4 or a' or "A,
> second-space treble clef" much as I suspect you do.
>
> But both the Helholtz and the C4 system are for identifying pitches and
> are only secondarily used for instrument names.
>
>
>
> --
> David H. Bailey
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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>
>






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Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] international pitch nomenclature

[Raymond Horton]

One exception that euphoniumists run into are the Strauss "Tenor Tuba" parts
in _Don Quixote_ and  _Eine Heldenleben_, which are in Bb Bass Clef.  This
might be explained by the fact that Strauss wrote these originally for
Wagner tuba, but later (in his additions to the Berlioz _Treatise on
Instrumentation_) wrote that they were better played on euphonium.

Another exception are the Buccine parts in Respighi's _Pines of Rome_,
usually played on trombone, that are also in Bb Bass Clef.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra

- Original Message - 
From: "Brad Beyenhof" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What they told me about this in college is that brass instruments in
> bass clef are VERY rarely transposed.
>
> Except, of course, for the F horn... but that's usually the odd one
> out anyway. There's really no standard as to which octave it's
> transposed into when it's in bass clef, either.
>

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Re: [Finale] Re: [OT] international pitch nomenclature

[Raymond Horton]

The pitch of some tubas is Bb (BBb).  Some are C (CC),  Eb, F, etc.  But all
are written in concert pitch, (except in the British Brass Band tradition,
which writes for BBb and Eb in transposing treble clef.)

The pitch of the instrument may not matter much to the composer/arranger,
but it is vitally important to the player, who has to learn different
fingerings and a different tonal center for each!

Normally, no key should be listed on a tuba part.  In a special situation,
where a composer has a specific instrument in mind for a specific part, any
key indication on a tuba part can run the risk of confusing the player as to
whether the part is in concert pitch or not, so it should be made clear:
"Tuba 1 (F - concert pitch); Tuba 2 (C)"  but the players may, of course,
choose different instruments anyway!

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra

> John Howell wrote:
>
> > (And of course
> > current practice is to omit the key of the instrument anyway, at least
> > in the band world:  We know that Alto Sax is in Eb, Trumpet is in Bb,
> > and Tuba is in Bb, so the pitch is not needed to identify them.)
>
> "Michele Sharik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Question:  why do we say that the Tuba is in Bb, when it's actually in
> C.  I mean, I know that the fundamental of the tuba's tube is Bb, but
> it's a C instrument, just like bassoon or cello, isn't it?  (and unlike
> the other instruments you mentioned, which transpose)
>
> -Michèle
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Re: [Finale] [OT] international pitch nomenclature (transposing instruments tangent)

[Raymond Horton]

Right!  I had forgotten about the "Bb Bass Saxhorn" French tradition.  All
those old solos from Alphonse Leduc came with a concert pitch bass clef
part, a Bb bass clef part, and some with a Bb treble part also.

(Tell me, do the string bass players really play those solos sounding an
octave lower?)

About a new "Euro" standard - that's a great idea, and may happen
eventually, but those old traditions die hard for some players.

I do feel strongly that every euphonium player should learn every
transposition that's out there - there just aren't enough opportunities to
play that great instument as it is! (Of course, they should learn trombone,
and perhaps tuba, too.)   I teach my trombone and euphonium students to read
everything, including F horn parts, if they stay with me long enough.  It
just opens up more musical opportunities.  Plenty of amateur groups can't
find four horns, and a good euphoniumist can blend, with some taste (and _no
vibrato_).  Euphonium students of mine have even used mutes to play bassoon
parts in their high school orchestra, but that is a little stranger.

I remember when I was in high school, being in a brass choir at a music
camp.  There were a couple of "treble clef baritone" players, but none of
the Robert King stuff had treble clef parts.  I played their parts on bass
trombone while they just sat there daydreaming.  No student of mine will do
allow that to happen!.

RBH

- Original Message - 
 "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not over here (France). We have a band that has Euphonium (Bariton) and
> Tuba players that read in:
>
> Concert pitch Bass clef
> Bb Bass clef (transposed)
> B flat Treble clef (transposed)
>
> Every piece of music needs to have 6 parts for just these 2 instruments!
>
> This demonstrates the complete and utter mess bands have got themselves
> into over the years. You only need to take a look at EMR publications
> in Switzerland to comprehend the ridiculous number of alternative
> transposed parts that are required if you wish to sell your music
> throughout the European countries.
>
> Wouldn't it be great if like the adapting the 'euro' as a currency we
> all decided to go concert. I would venture to guess that this could
> also help in consolidating the manufacturers of these instruments.
>
> Jonathan Smith
>
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Re: [Finale] free pdf writer

[Raymond Horton]

I hadn't seen this before.  It works great!

Last night I spent 10 minutes altering a file to send it as a TIF in a
MSWord doc.  That results in a file that doesn't look great, and not
everyone can successfully open.  Today I spent 10 seconds making a much
better-looking PDF that anyone can open.  A big help!

Thanks, Phil!

Ray Horton

- Original Message - 
From: "Phil Daley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Finale list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 6:56 AM
Subject: [Finale] free pdf writer


> 
>
> Don't know how good it is.
>
> Phil Daley  < AutoDesk >
> http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] free pdf writer

[Raymond Horton]

Both Finale files and MSWord doc files, saved first as PDFs using
CuteWriter, print great for me.

Ray Horton

> At 06:56 AM 7/29/04 -0400, Phil Daley wrote:
> >
> >Don't know how good it is.

>Dennis Bathory-Kitsz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Looked great. The on-screen looked fine. But none of the stems, beams, or
> staff lines print. It also mangled the fonts using MSWord.
>
> Free is free. :)
>
> Dennis

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Re: [Finale] Notation advice

[Raymond Horton]

> Raymond Horton writes:
>
> > Repeating the threes doesn't matter either way, nobody
> > misreads those, and they're easier to leave in in Finale than to take
out.
>
>Jari Williamsson write:
>
> First, why should the music output be controlled by what's "easiest"
> in a program? Second, it's just as easy to take out tuplet numbers
> than to leave them in in Finale.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jari Williamsson
>
A very logical response on your part, Jari, because I had left out a step in
the thinking that led to my original response.

In Mozart's time, it was common to put a few "three"s on the triplets, and
then omit them, because that saved work for the engraver.  Today omitting
the threes saves no work for the engraver, so it really doesn't matter, on a
non-scholarly arrangement such as the one in question.  It does take an
extra step in Finale, albeit a small one, to omit the threes.

I should have been more complete in my original answer.

RBH


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Re: [Finale] change channel

[Raymond Horton]

Thanks Linda!

I, for one, would tend to forget all about assigning different channels to
different layers.  That is much easier.

Particularly, the biggest limitation of changing channels with expressions
is that on playback from the middle of a piece the staff would inevitably be
on the wrong channel at the wrong time.

RBH

- Original Message - 
From: "Linda Worsley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] change channel


>
> >At 03:20 AM 08/23/2004, Dragos Oltean wrote:
> >>I have set channel 10 in instrument list for play percussion. First
measure
> >>play maracas. Second measure I want to play a vibraphone (in same
staff).
> >>With MIDI Tool it's possible to change channel? In same staff it's
possible
> >  >change percussion with other instrument (not percussion)?
>
> All the solutions mentioned (great, but complicated) seem to have
> ignored the fact that you can simply assign different LAYERS of the
> same staff to different instruments on different MIDI channels.
> That's the way I go from arco to pizz, for example, in string parts.
> Works great.
>
> Linda
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Re: [Finale] Arrangement, Orchestration or Transcription?

[Raymond Horton]

David W. Fenton wrote:
On 25 Aug 2004 at 11:41, Andrew Stiller wrote:
 

What about piano to concert band? What would you call that (other
than the generic "arrangement"?
--
 

David W. Fenton
The term "bandstration" has been in widespread use for over 40 years.
   

And you're advocating the use of such a monstrosity?
I've never heard it, myself, and think it is ridiculous.
 

I've heard it, years ago, but bands-tration sounds way to close to 
"cas-"  for comfort.  

RBH
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Re: [Finale] Page turn symbol/notation?

[Raymond Horton]

Owain Sutton wrote:

Darcy James Argue wrote:

So I think using V.S. as an all-purpose page turn indicator is just 
fine.  

It isn't with the sightreading of a piece with standard orchestral 
players.  They'll all lurch forwards to turn ASAP.
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Exactly.  V.S. means fast.  The end of a page means turn.  Why add 
anything at all?  Anybody can figure out to turn the page, even if there 
is blank space.  Or write "time" or "turn"  - but PLEASE not V.S.  when 
it's not.  The players really do complain about that every time it is 
used incorrectly.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra
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Re: [Finale] div wind parts

[Raymond Horton]

We see wind parts on one line fairly often.  We don't like them in new 
music, especially if there is complexity involved and Finale skills 
could have fixed it, but we deal with it and play it.  But, if it's EASY 
to read and saves a page turn - no real problem, I would say.  

The only time we would not play a piece was a new symphony that had four 
part divisis in all the strings - with crossing glissandi, etc., all in 
one staff.  Totally unreadable.  We told the composer, his only response 
was to come back the next day with enlarged pages!  We omitted the 
offending two middle movements and premiered the two outer movements.  
The composer (a college prof returning to his hometown - had a bunch of 
family there and all) seemed crushed.   It was a shame, because a few 
hours work at the computer keyboard could have saved the premiere for him. 

If you ever combine a part (I've only left some combined when I've had 
to race to get the music on the stands before the second hand hits the 
start of rehearsal time, which is, perhaps, not the optimal situation) 
make sure you combine in standard pairs. I always have a chuckle 
whenever we get a part with 2nd and 3rd trb on one line (usually some 
old march,  polka or something on a pops concert).  Try as he might, our 
2nd trombonist can't seem to remember to play the top part - he's so 
used to playing the bottom part on a combined 1st and 2nd trb part.  
Invariably, he'll start playing the lower part.  The easiest thing for 
me to do is to just play 2nd and not say anything about it.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
At 10:34 AM 5/2/05 -0400, John Howell wrote:
 

If they're essentially homophonic, one staff should work.  If they 
have independent rhythms, two staves is much safer.
   

I just got my wrist slapped over this from the conductor of a professional
orchestra who said they never read wind parts from a single staff -- always
separate parts. Strings, fine. Anyone else, no. So they had to be done
completely over.
Lesson learned, at least for me, considering how much trouble it is to
create parts!
Dennis
 

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Re: [Finale] TAN: treble clef in 18th century cello parts

[Raymond Horton]

David W. Fenton wrote:
I take it there's no tradition whatsoever in which the cb bass clef
is played 8ba and the cb treble clef 16ba? That means that the
recording I have is just fulla beans, eh? ...


Andrew Stiller wrote:
Use of the treble clef in any cb part of that era is so very rare that 
one can hardly speak of a tradition of any kind, and I would imagine 
each case has to be treated as unique. I would agree with you, then, 
that the meaning of the notation must be determined by examining the 
musical results produced by various interpretations.

Unfortunately, it is a rare performer indeed who thinks that way.

I will disagree with that statement, especially with the doublebass 
players that I know.  (My son is a college doublebass student, so I have 
had more than a fair share of contact with serious doublebass players, 
and trombonists often seem to hang with bass players  anyway.)  They 
take the instrument, the notation, and, especially, an older unique 
situation such as you describe very seriously and would consider 
carefully the context before deciding in  which octave a controversial 
passage should be played.  Also, if a conductor is involved, his or her 
decision is often considered final, but the educated player will often 
advise.)  

I apologize that I wasn't paying close attention when the original 
example was described, but it does seem logical that, if it was in a day 
when cellists routinely saw treble clef 8ba, doublebass players may have 
seen it intended to sound 15ba.  But I can't weigh in more heavily 
without knowing more.  Certainly by the time some of the modern school 
of bass player/composers came along, the treble would have changed to 
only 8ba, but I don't know in whose day that would be: Dragonetti, 
Bottesini, or Koussevitzky?  (Quick!  Just where did I put all those 
rare bass MSS?) 

The day when cellists saw the assumed 8ba treble clef was not so 
ancient, BTW.  I have seen scores of Tchaikovsky's Overture _Romeo and 
Juliet_ (1869-80) that use that clef for the celli.  (I believe the 
modern published parts changed it to tenor clef). 

(Signing off to try GPO with the new DIMS (now up to 2 Gig total) that 
just arrived on my doorstep.  I'm so excited!)

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra
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Re: [Finale] TAN: treble clef in 18th century cello part

[Raymond Horton]

Sure, send both.  I'll give you my email privately.  My son is quite 
accomplished, although not really a history buff on the instrument, but 
I see knowledgeable bass players daily who may know the work.  Please 
give the full context again, as i was dozing the first time around. 

Once, as a high school sophomore, when following a score and listening 
to a recording of a Russian orchestra playing Shostakovitch's suite from 
_The Golden Age_,  I just about dropped my jaw when the baritone horn 
player on the record took the high concert D down an octave (a note even 
I could play at the time).  That taught me that you may hear anything on 
a recording.

On another recording I heard a lot around the same time, my sister's 
favorite record of the same composers Fifth symphony (NY Phil, Lennie 
B.), I liked the effect the composer got in the first movement - as the 
tutti is building on the climactic open fifth whole notes before the end 
of the movement, the trombones would crash in on a quarter note, then 
rest before entering in the next bar for good.  Later, when I got a 
score, I was quite surprised to see that they were merely coming in a 
bar early and trying to suck the note back in to their horns!  Like I 
said - you're liable to hear anything on a recording. 

RBH
David W. Fenton wrote:
Is there anyone on the list who plays contrabass and is familiar with 
Per questa bella mano? I could certain scan some of the score and put 
it up for people to look at, if they need to see it (also maybe an 
MP3 of the recording).

 

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Re: [Finale] Treble clef in Cb part

[Raymond Horton]

David W. Fenton wrote:

If the 15ba performance is forced on modern players by the notes 
available to them, then I really think they oughtn't play the damned 
thing! It really does sound that bad!

 

I seriously doubt this.  Modern bass players can play things that bass 
players 200 years ago would never have dreamt of.  Even now you can read 
in recent publications that thumb positions are impossible on bass, yet 
modern players are perfecting that technique as we speak.  I still don't 
know the passage to which we are referring, but I can't imagine the 
situation being one of a limit in modern bass technique. 

RBH
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Re: [Finale] OT: HYMNS vs PRAISE CHORUSES, PART 2

[Raymond Horton]

Phil Daley wrote:
An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended the big city 
church.  He cam home and his wife asked him how it was.  "Well," said 
the farmer, "It was good. They did something different, however.  They 
sang praise choruses instead of hymns."

This one is best if you demonstrate while counting it out on your fingers:
_Definition of a Praise and Worship Chorus_
ONE word,
sung to TWO notes,
in THREE different keys,
for FOUR minutes,
with a HIGH FIVE at the end. 


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Re: [Finale] Where is GPO Studio?

[Raymond Horton]

I just reinstalled GPO on my Windows XP PC after a hard disk reformat.  
I have four disks in my GPO pack, which I bought in early fall of 2004, 
but I have never used the 4th disk, which is marked "Extra Programs."  
GPO Studio installs from the first 3 three disks along with everything 
else, all in one continuous install.   I chose the option to install 
everything when given the choice, early in the installation procedure. 


Perhaps Garritan is now selling GPO without the "Extra Programs" disk?

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
(occasional arranger, composer)
Louisville Orchestra

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Hiro,

Did you get a 4th disk?  GPO Studio if I recall correctly is on that 
disk!  I'll check when I get to my studio.  Also, you have to go back 
to the installer on the first disk and do a custom install where you 
check the VST host only and re-install just that...


I'm going from memory and it has been awhile but again, I'll be in my 
studio in a couple of hours and I'll check then.


Best,

Karen


Eric Dannewitz / 2005/06/13 / 12:47 PM wrote:


What? Installer worked fine, and the thing runs great under Tiger. What
do you mean the GPO Studio is nowhere on the 3 CDs? If you run the
installer, and it goes through all 3 CDs, it puts a standalone in
Applications, and the virtual instruments appear in Digital 
Performer to

be used. I haven't tried it yet with Finale



According to the manual, you need GPO Studio, which is a VST host, is
needed to use with Finale.
According to the manual, I am supposed to find GPO Studio.dmg on the
disk, but it's not there.

- Hiro

Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
<http://a-no-ne.com> <http://anonemusic.com>



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[Finale] half rests in 6/4?

[Raymond Horton]

I know that it is generally felt that one should not, in the best of 
company, use half rests in 3/4 time.  How about 6/4?


Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, occasional arranger and composer
Louisville Orchestra
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Re: [Finale] half rests in 6/4? - back to the original question, please!

[Raymond Horton]

My, we've really explored many sides of the 6/4 meter issue since I 
posted my question late last night! 

I think we've settled that: in general, 6/4 should divide in the middle, 
3/2 should divide in threes, just as 6/8 and 3/4 do.  There are 
exceptions, but the general rule should hold.  The arguments seem to be 
just how much exception one allows.  Fair enough. 

My problem is, I've got the editor from my publisher waiting on me to 
proof his engraving of an arrangement of mine, and I need to tell him, 
like tonight or tomorrow, whether or not to change some of our mutually 
inconsistent rests.  And, so far, my question hasn't been answered with 
any degree of consensus by the experts on this fine list during this 
gentle mayhem that has ensued from the original question. 



The work in question is most definitely in two groups of 3 beats each 
(although it often hemiolas into 3/2 temporarily). 

I just wasn't certain, in 6/4, whether five beats rest should generally 
be a dotted half plus two quarters or a dotted half plus a half.  The 
latter is easy to read, but I suspect that Johannes is indeed on target 
with his asstertion that the former is most correct?


Also, for another example: two beats rest, followed by a quarter note, 
quarter note, half note.  Should the rest(s) be two quarter rests, or 
will a half suffice?


My principal composition teacher, the late Nelson Keyes, was always 
quite irked when he would see a half rest in 3/4 in a published work, 
but it is a rule that is often broken.  I don't know if this is the same 
type of situation.


Please don't let me down this time, folks!

Raymond Horton


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Re: [Finale] half rests in 6/4?

[Raymond Horton]

Chuck Israels wrote:



On Jun 29, 2005, at 6:45 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:


(the "I want to live in America" effect



I don't remember how Bernstein wrote this, but I'd write it with one 
combined time signature 6/8 and 3/4 and think that that was pretty 
clear.  It seems cluttered to change time signatures every measure for 
something as consistent as this example.  I'd trust musicians to 
understand that in a flash.


Chuck



In all the versions I've seen it's 6/8 all the way through.  I've seen 
it conducted both all in two and alternating twos and threes.  Saw 
Bernstein on TV, in a special on PBS many years ago, conducting his 
"Dream Session" recordings - alternating twos and threes. 


RBH

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Re: [Finale] half rests in 6/4? - back to the original question, please!

[Raymond Horton]

You are correct that the question was answered, once, but I was hoping 
for a consensus.  Thanks for the summary. 


RBH

Darcy James Argue wrote:


On 29 Jun 2005, at 9:28 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:

 And, so far, my question hasn't been answered with any degree of 
consensus by the experts on this fine list during this gentle mayhem 
that has ensued from the original question.



Actually, way back at the beginning, Johannes answered your original 
question -- "In such a use of 6/4 I would not consider it correct to 
use half rests" -- and I concurred.  I don't believe anyone else has 
disagreed with this, despite the tangent the thread took.


The work in question is most definitely in two groups of 3 beats each 
(although it often hemiolas into 3/2 temporarily).



In those measures, you can (and should) use half rests where appropriate.

I just wasn't certain, in 6/4, whether five beats rest should 
generally be a dotted half plus two quarters



Yes.


or a dotted half plus a half.



No.


 The latter is easy to read,



Debatable.

 but I suspect that Johannes is indeed on target with his asstertion 
that the former is most correct?



Yes.

Also, for another example: two beats rest, followed by a quarter 
note, quarter note, half note.  Should the rest(s) be two quarter rests,



Yes.


or will a half suffice?



Not unless this is one of the temporary 3x2/4 situations.

My principal composition teacher, the late Nelson Keyes, was always 
quite irked when he would see a half rest in 3/4 in a published work, 
but it is a rule that is often broken.  I don't know if this is the 
same type of situation.



Yes, it is.


Please don't let me down this time, folks!



I think most people assumed, as I did, that the question had already 
been answered to your satisfaction.


- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


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Re: [Finale] half rests in 6/4?

[Raymond Horton]

It is quite proper to use a 3/2 bar in the middle of a 4/4 work, using a 
quarter note pulse, with the intention of keeping the quarter note pulse 
but the 3/2 divided 2+2+2.  This is done quite correctly and frequently, 
not constantly. 

But that does not keep it from being very confusing to the uninitiated. 

When I was a young 8th grader, my band director was leading my high 
school band through a reading of one of the greatest of all concert band 
works, Percy Grainger's folk song-inspired _Lincolnshire Posy_.  (For 
anyone unfamiliar with the work, I HIGHLY reccomend that you seek out a 
recording and, if possible, a score, for this gorgeous and original 
work.)  The director, otherwise a quite accomplished musician, came to a 
4/4 - 3/2 metric sequence and started rushing through the 3/2 bars at 
double tempo.  He stopped and said "If this is not what the composer 
wants at this point, then he has notated this passage INCORRECTLY!"  I 
though it odd, and have made a mental note of such metric passages ever 
since.  (He hadn't had any trouble with the 2/2 - 2/4 bars in the 
Overture to _Candide_, oddly enough.)


Another time, many years later, I was helping my wife as she was 
directing a volunteer church choir.  An anthem had a similar 4/4 - 3/2 
metric passage, and a tenor (of course) would simply not HEAR of a meter 
with a THREE at the top and a TWO at the bottom being beat in SIX, and 
the QUARTER NOTE getting the beat.  HE HAD LEARNED about time 
signatures, and that SIMPLY WAS NOT THE WAY THAT THEY WORKED, and he 
didn't care WHAT KIND OF COLLEGE DEGREES the both of us had, BECAUSE IF 
WE HADN"T LEARNED ABOUT TIME SIGNATURES, TOO, etc. etc. etc.


(a little knowledge is  a dangerous thing, and the littler the knowledge 
...) 


RBH
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Re: [Finale] Hey! What's wrong with Creston's 12/12?

[Raymond Horton]

I'm with you, Richard.

The Louisville Orchestra has played as much or more new music as any 
other orchestra anywhere in the 34 years of which I have been a member.  
Any type of tuplet gets instant recognition.  Any type of "12th note" 
would meet with confusion and consternation, and would require total 
explanation from conductor or composer (or ms) before any player 
comprehension could begin. 


(Man, I sound like a curmudgeon!)

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
occasional composer and arranger,
Louisville Orchestra


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


A sincere thank you for the resposes to my question.

My humble opinion still stands, that using an esoteric meter such as /12 will return an uncertain performance.  


Richard

PS - What is the notation for a twelth note ?  If an 8th is a single flag and a 16th is double flag, is a 12th note a flag and a half ?   

PPS - These are sincere questions, not sarcasm as they might seem in the printed word.  
 



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Re: [Finale] [Tan] Take it down!

[Raymond Horton]

Darcy James Argue wrote:


On 12 Jul 2005, at 12:47 PM, Owain Sutton wrote:


Andrew Stiller wrote:


Dennis Bathory-Kitsz:
I'm looking for consensus from the group before I send a formal
takedown notice to their web hosts.


You'll get no such agreement from me. If copyright  subsists in 
these  postings, then it should not. Have you all gone nuts?

Andrew Stiller


I second Andrew's comment.  Of all the copyright issues to be worried 
about, this has to rank way down the bottom.  What next, objecting to 
people remembering what you say in the pub?!


Thirded.  This is like objecting to internet search engines.  
Searchable online list archives benefit everyone.


If you're *that* concerned about copyright, then don't post here.

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY


Fourthed.  Much ado about not too much.
- Raymond Horton


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Re: [Finale] Finale 2006 upgrade price

[Raymond Horton]

Please excuse me for barging in with a Finale question,  but:

For a sucker, err, "early adopter" like myself, who just can't bear to 
have a new version of Finale come out without exploring the new features 
for himself (plus, I have an excuse in that Cimarron Music always 
upgrades right away, so there would be the loss of a yearly 
double-figure income in brass arrangement royalties RIGHT THERE) - is 
the upgrade price of $99 the lowest I can get?  Are there any promo 
codes in the mailings that I should look for, or any thing else that 
could save me a few bucks on this upgrade?


Thanks for any help.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
occasional arranger and composer,
Louisville Orchestra
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Re: [Finale] Dare I?? O.T.

[Raymond Horton]

Joel Sears wrote:

  In a jazz context, "That band really sucks" means a band that's so bad
it can't blow. No other meaning.

Joel Sears


On Jul 14, 2005, at 6:15 AM, dhbailey wrote:
  
  
Okay, what's the term for words which are originally antonyms but 
which in certain situations mean the same thing?

Example:  Cool, HotThat's really cool!  That's really hot!  (both 
meaning essentially "that's really phat!")  ;-)

  
  
Or, "That band really sucks!" "That band really blows!"

(But only in a rock/pop context. In a jazz context, "That band really 
blows" means it improvises with extraordinary creativity and group 
sensitivity.)

8-)

Christopher
  

In the original, non-musical meaning of the two words, suck and blow
mean the same thing, and neither is a really accurate description of
the act, but at least the former implies the correct direction. 

RBH (going to wash his typing fingers out with soap before his mother
finds out.)




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Re: [Finale] Blowing O.T.

[Raymond Horton]

Christopher Smith wrote:


Hmm, OK. Time for some slang etymology here.

...
Maybe fifteen years ago I first heard "blows" meaning bad. It was 
around the time that the expression "blowing chunks" (for throwing up) 
gained popularity, and often the two were interchanged. "That team 
blows chunks!" would be freely interchanged with "That team blows!" Of 
course, now it just means "bad." Note there is no connection with 
"sucks" that is immediately apparent to today's generation, just as 
there is no connection between "phat" and "fat".


Sorry, but a quick check of Internet slang dictionaries do not agree 
with you that the slang "blow" is only short for "blow chunks." It seems 
to be as a verb most often connected with oral sex, as a noun with 
cocaine.  Only farther down the lists do the chunkier definitions 
appear.   


(From a man who knows how to blow when he needs to)
Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra





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Re: [Finale] Finale Sondfont and GPO, but not at the same time? (was "Makemusic's reply to my

[Raymond Horton]

Why wouldn't one be able to?   I can use GPO and the Finale sound font 
simultaneously on WinFin2005, although the Finale sound font will not 
record into the GPO recorder (which makes sense, I suppose). 

After all the complaining about WHAT! - NO SAXOPHONES,  I just was 
playing with adding some Finale Sound Font saxes to GPO, with mixed 
results.  In ensemble writing I think I would prefer a combination of 
GPO bassoons and other WWs.  Fut for exposed sax sections it could work 
if one holds his nose a bit, at least until Gary Garritan actually 
releases some sax sounds and people pressure Finale into including a few 
into it's GPO Lite.   

If one were to make a habit of mixing GPO and the Finale Sound Font, one 
would need to start looking for a simple way to record a WAV file from 
Finale again - any suggestions, anyone?


RBH

Colin Broom wrote:

Am I understanding the conversation between Darcy and David 
correctly?  Is it the case that in the upcoming version of Finale that 
the soundfont and GPO sounds can't be used at the same time?  I was 
assuming that GPO would work as simply another of the devices in 
Finale, and one would be able to set them up as for example the first 
MIDI device (channels 1-16) and the soundfont as the next (17-32).


If they can't be used together, then I have to say that's really 
disappointing.  (I don't use the default soundfont but replace it with 
my own much better sounding one).  Would there be a way to get them to 
work together, for example using Gigastudio or something?


C.



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Re: [Finale] GPO and string harmonics

[Raymond Horton]

David Froom wrote:


I am a longtime Finale user and a relatively new GPO user.

Does any one have any ideas about a good way to get string harmonics sounds
in GPO?  I am writing something for flute and string orchestra and need a
decent string harmonic sound.

Thanks in advance,
David Froom
 



Hi David,

I have a few harmonics in a GPO demo of a piece I just finished.  I did 
a fairly nice fabrication of it by using the violin patch (at the 
correct playing pitch) and doubling it softly with a piccolo patch at 
unison. I used hidden layers to not print.


I assume the upcoming Advanced GPO will include string harmonics.  On 
the website, it looks like the "Garritan Orchestral Strings" does not, 
though.  Does anyone know?


Raymond Horton
Louisville Orchestra
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Re: [Finale] Blowing O.T.

[Raymond Horton]

Crystal, even though I still think your name is most certainly Phat (I 
believe I gushed about it once before), I really doubt that derivation.  
I'd be willing to bet cold cash that the word came first.


RBH

Crystal Premo wrote:

I'm quite sure that the "pretty hot and tempting" explanation is not a 
fantasy.  Both my teenagers consider it common knowledge.  They rolled 
their eyes at me with impatience when I asked just now.




Crystal Premo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: OFFLIST [Finale] GPO and string harmonics

[Raymond Horton]

Darcy James Argue wrote:

Oh, oops.  I guess that wasn't offlist after all...  Sorry, MakeMusic 
people...


- Darcy


Well, the whole cat should be out of the bag soon, right?  It sounds 
exciting.  (BTW, David Froom was the one who asked the question, but 
thanks for the info anyway!). 


RBH
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Re: [Finale] Blowing O.T.

[Raymond Horton]

 In the USAF band in the late '50s, one's instrument was referred to 
as one's "axe" for no discernable reason,



It was (still is?) widespread jazz terminology--like "gig."


Still is.

RBH
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Re: [Finale] Blowing O.T.

[Raymond Horton]

Perhaps, but that might be supposing too much.  I would think it's just 
a term for a tool of the trade.  (Personally, I heard "axe" years before 
I ever heard of "woodshedding.")


RBH

dhbailey wrote:


Raymond Horton wrote:



 In the USAF band in the late '50s, one's instrument was referred 
to as one's "axe" for no discernable reason,





It was (still is?) widespread jazz terminology--like "gig."





The use of the term "axe" goes along with the term "woodshedding" -- 
what other tool would you use in a wood shed besides an axe?





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Re: [Finale] Blowing O.T. - now "axe" and "chops"

[Raymond Horton]

I know a percussionist who talks about "keeping  his chops in shape."

RBH



 >>>  Not a clue as to the origins of 'ax' in any case.
 >>
 >> Well, is "chops" a clue?
 >
 >
 >Maybe... but then what happens when you're talking about sax players?
 >;)

Are you saying sax players don't have chops?? 



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Re: [Finale] OT: Countertenor barred from Texas All-State Choir- damaging the instrument?

[Raymond Horton]

John Bell wrote:


On 22 Jul 2005, at 01:50, Chuck Israels wrote:


"Association spokeswoman Amy Lear said the group
enacted the rule two years ago because of concerns
that girls auditioning for tenor parts were hurting
their voices by singing too low.



If these old wives tales were true, more of us would be blind :-)



Many years ago, a schoolteacher caught me and my trombonist friend 
playing jazz using the school's prized Steinway. He seriously thought 
we might have damaged the sensitive instrument by exposing it to such 
vulgar music.


John


In graduate school, when my friend and I, both composition majors, were 
trying to schedule the main recital hall for our composition recitals, 
the secretary in charge, trying to protect the noble Steinway from the 
dreaded curse of 'modern music', said "No banging?".  We both nodded and 
replied, with all appropriate seriousness "No banging."   



RBH
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Re: [Finale] OT: Countertenor barred from Texas All-State Choir

[Raymond Horton]

... Eustazio was also a castrato originally.  (I think the part is cut 
altogether in later edition.)


mdl


Ouch! 


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Re: [Finale] Countertenor barred... OT (and long)

[Raymond Horton]

Perhaps, but about 1966 or 67 I remember that the NY Phil still had but 
one female non-harpist (a bass player). 


Raymond Horton
Louisville Orchestra

John Howell wrote:


At 6:02 PM -0400 7/23/05, David W. Fenton wrote:


I remember reading somewhere recently about the change in orchestras
where someone entirely attributed the increasing hiring of women
entirely to the institution of blind auditions 10 or 15 years ago.



That may be correct in terms of the top tier orchestras, although I'd 
be inclined to place it more like 20-25 years ago.  But while I can't 
speak for European orchestras, the process in North America started 
during World War II when so many younger (and not so young) players 
were drafted into military service.  My father would have gone if not 
for a congenital heart defect (although he was a music educator and 
not an orchestral player.)  And just as Rosie the Riveter went to work 
in factories that had never hired women except as secretaries, 
orchestras started discovering women players who were perfectly 
competent.  True, it wasn't as dramatic a sociological change as on 
the assembly lines, since older refugees from Europe, many of them 
Jewish and escaping Nazi Germany, filled in quite a few orchestral 
chairs, but I would say that this set the scene for the use of blind 
auditions.


John




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Re: [Finale] Fin2006 first impressions

[Raymond Horton]

I bought Finale, many years ago, to engrave.  The playback was useful to 
me almost entirely for checking notes.


However, the improvement in playback in the last three versions, with HP 
and GPO, has been amazing.  The improved playback is now extremely 
useful to me.  I can now make high-quality demo cds of my scores to give 
conductors that surpass the quality I ever dreamed of.   I love it.  
More playback improvements?   Bring them on!


(I never spent time learning sequencers, and never wanted to.  Notation 
is what I know, and what I work with.  I always found sequencers 
frustrating, and was always grateful to get back to Finale.)


Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
arranger, composer
Louisville Orchestra

Dan Carno wrote:


At 12:02 PM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

Of course, if you don't care about playback, then these features may 
not be of interest, but most users do care about playback




Hi all,

I have never cared much about playback, aside from a preliminary 
proof-read for simple engraving projects.  Are there actual stats to 
show the veracity of the above statement?


If this is the direction that Finale is going to take (to the 
exclusion of engraving issues), then perhaps it is time for me to bail.


On the other hand, if this is not true, I would hate to see the 
programmers at MM getting the wrong impression about their subscriber 
base.


Dan Carno


Daniel Carno
Music Engraving Services
Quality work in Sibelius, Finale, and Score
4514 Makyes Road
Syracuse, New York 13215
(315) 492-2987
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Finale] Click Tracks with GPO

[Raymond Horton]

There is certainly something to what you say.  Several years ago I gave 
my daughter my PC I got in 1997 with a Turtle Beach Pinnacle card.  That 
card had some great sounds - really fine piano, some very good wws, 
etc.  The next several years were a real step backward, and I never 
understood why.   I still visit the old machine (err, and my daughter, 
too, of course), and the pieces I wrote on that machine sound better on 
it that any other setup.   But I'd have to say that, overall, GPO has 
passed it in quality by mile. 


Raymond Horton

David W. Fenton wrote:


...

And let me say this: I'm skeptical of software-based sound synthesis 
to begin with. It makes no sense to me to burden the CPU with this 
kind of specialized processing. It's one thing to have soundfonts 
that can be loaded into your sound card, but it's entirely another to 
have it done entirely in software.


My Turtle Beach sound card is 6 or 7 years old and some of its GM 
sounds are better than the GPO sounds (though it doesn't have all the 
capabilities and options). Using it does not in any way burden my 
CPU. That sounds *good* to me. 
 


...

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Re: [Finale] FinMac2006/GPO : How the hell do I....?

[Raymond Horton]

Andrew Stiller wrote:



So what happens if I've got a part that goes down to Bb (as some do)? 
What if I have one of those 1830s scores that take the fl. down to G? 
I sense some big problems here, if not for flute, than for some other 
instruments, because for every one of them there is, below the lowest 
normal note, a whole bunch of abnormal low notes that composers, in 
their perversity, do in fact write from time to time.


Case in point: finger the bottom D of the piccolo while covering the 
far end of the instrument w. your R 5th finger. The result is the D an 
octave lower. This effect has been written in actual music. What does 
GPO do in this case?


Remember that GPO is sample-based.  If the flute player that GG sampled 
didn't play a low Bb, the sample doesn't have one.  The one that boggles 
my brain the most is Bass Trombone 1 Solo, which has a much better sound 
than Bass Trombone 1 Solo, but which only extends up to the G - top 
space of bass clef!  Try finding a bass trombone part anywhere that 
doesn't extend above that note!  Bass Trombone 2 Solo, while having a 
much rougher sound, is a real hot-dog, range-wise, extending from a high 
C (an octave and a 5th higher than Bass Trombone 1 Solo) down to a 
double pedal Bb, a step lower than any of the tuba samples (I used it 
for that missing tuba note in one score.).  I just, today, noticed that 
the piccolo trumpet samples extend no higher than the solo trumpet 
samples (high F in both cases, which would be OK for "Penny Lane" but 
would lack a note for the F Major Brandenburg Concerto).


But, to your questions, there are often workarounds that are not 
difficult.  For a flute passage extending to low G, simply load an alto 
flute sample into another layer and put that passage into that layer.  
For that odd low picc note, load a flute patch into another layer and do 
the same.  (For that one you may have to hide a layer, transpose it 
8ba,  and label it for playback, while preserving a notation-only layer 
in the written octave.  I'm not sure if this is necessary with GPO - 
I've done this in the pre-GPO past for putting a flute double in a 
piccolo staff. )


Hope this helps!

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
occasional arranger, composer
Louisville Orchestra


Darcy wrote:

In GPO Full, these keyswitches are always in the octave immediately 
below the lowest playable note on the instrument, so that they can be 
triggered in real time.  For instance, the lowest note on the GPO Full 
KS flute is B3.  The keyswitch to trigger ordinary playing is a major 
seventh below that (i.e., C3). D3 triggers non vib playing. E3 
triggers fluttertongue playing.



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Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?

[Raymond Horton]

I'm a big GPO fan, and I bit back in May or June and ordered the 
upgrade.  I've been looking forward to all the improvements. 

I know MM is holding back the discs because of the Mac install prob, but 
I'm a Win user (although I do prefer the disc be usable on both - just 
in case a Mac comes walking through the door for some strange reason). 

Anyone have an idea when I might receive it? 


Raymond Horton
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Re: [Finale] OT Euphonium Players On List

[Raymond Horton]

I began on euphonium, age 11, still play most days - play outside of the 
house whenever someone lets me.  Took up trombone to make a living 
(sorry!).  Have two great old horns, both, coincidentally, vintage 1960: 
a silver 4-valve Conn 24-I bell-up and a compensating  Besson with 11 
inch bell.



Raymond Horton,
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra


Jonathan Smith wrote:


Keeping up the 'Beautiful sound' I'm sure!

I know Tyler Turner plays Euph and Peter Wilson who used to post to 
the list a while back.


Just for interest, any other Euphonium players out there?

And while we're on the subject,  anyone found a decent sound sample of 
a Euph, preferably one that sounds like Trevor Groom?


Jonathan (also euphonium player) Smith

On 3 Aug 2005, at 03:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



NOTE: There are two Jim Williamses here as well as a Jim Williamson.

I am not the Jim Williams who was talking about DVD drives, etc.

I talk about the euphonium.


Jim (euphonium player) Williams



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Re: [Finale] Is upgrading worth it?

[Raymond Horton]

I'm a big GPO fan, and I bit back in May or June and ordered the 
upgrade.  I've been looking forward to all the improvements.
I know MM is holding back the discs because of the Mac install prob, 
but I'm a Win user (although I do prefer the disc be usable on both - 
just in case a Mac comes walking through the door for some strange 
reason).

Anyone have an idea when I might receive it?
Raymond Horton

For everyone on the edge of their chair (you're out there, right?) I 
found out the answer to my own question.  For some reason or another, my 
on-line order had not gone through, and MM had no record of it.  I 
entered another order and should get it in 7 days.


Damn.

RBH

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Re: [Finale] OT Euphonium Players On List

[Raymond Horton]

Hi Dean,

Is that the compensating one with four front action valves?  I was 
investigating that one for a handicapped student I had, who couldn't use 
his left hand. 


Ray

Dean M. Estabrook wrote:

Yes, I have a lovely Wilson (sp?)  Canadian Brass model,  but I don't  
play it nearly enough. Mea Culpa.


Dean



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Re: [Finale] OT Euphonium Players On List

[Raymond Horton]

My appologies - thought I sent this as private.


Hi Dean,

Is that the compensating one with four front action valves? ... 



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Re: [Finale] TAN: orchestra piece

[Raymond Horton]

Andrew Stiller wrote:

A couple of questions for the list, both about the same 19th-c. orchl. 
work that I'm editing.


1) Can any of you think of any example of a musical self-portrait 
(especially orchestral) from the 19th c.? 18th c.?


R. Strauss: _Ein Heldenleben_ (A Hero's Life) 1898, seems to pop into 
mind first. 

If you can delve into the early 20th century, check out it's parody by 
Charles Converse, _Flivver Ten Million_ (1924) which is a heroic 
narrative of the life of a Model T.   The first recording of this clever 
work by my own Louisville Orchestra may still be  available on CD on 
Albany TROY 030-2, (and is certainly in libraries) and there is another 
recording out there as well.


2) This composer habitually puts his first violins onto two staves, 
labeled Vn.Ia and Vn. Ib. How should the string parts for such a piece 
be distributed:



Depends on the work.  Does it look like equal division, or 1st divided?


6.6.12.10.8.6?


An orchestra always has more firsts than seconds, so even if the firsts 
were divided in half this would not be the case.


I've seen the ideal string section of 60 described as 16.14.12.10.8.  
Your smaller section would be more like 14.11.9.8.6, and would divide 
violins, in this case, more like 8.6.11



8.8.8.10.8.6?

If the three parts in your piece are equal (like the three violin parts 
in the third movement of the Shostakovich 5th) it would be played more 
like 10.8.6;  maybe 9.8.7.   (The 60 strings would divide more like 12.10.8)


Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra

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Re: [Finale] US copyright question

[Raymond Horton]

Thanks to David for bringing in the name Schirmer.  I assumed, but 
wasn't sure.  Yellow I got, but the green threw me.  (more later)


David W. Fenton wrote:


...
And many of those Schirmer editions, ...

Now, if you want a publisher who is dishonest, try the one with the 
PINK covers. . .


 

Now, for the benefit of anyone besides myself on the list who is 
color-blind, does a third party want to link a name, unofficially of 
course, to this part of the discussion? 

There are a lot of us males, and more than a few females, who have 
various color deficiencies, and FAR more things in the world are 
color-coded than need to be. 


RBH
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Re: [Finale] US copyright question - now OT color-coding unfairness

[Raymond Horton]

David W. Fenton wrote:


That would be Kalmus, of course.

 



Ray adds:

Thanks for the first part of that sentence, David.  The "of course" was 
not appropriate in this instance, of course!


I have played as many or more bad Kalmus editions as any one else on 
this list.  Take a look at the bass trombone part to the Shostakovitch 
1st for a real crime - whole passeges left out, and others written in 
the wrong octave by someone who couldn't figure out how to convert alto 
clef into bass.  Why he/she didn't leave the passage in alto, I don't 
know.  I never associated with Kalmus the color pink.   My color-OK 
family members in the other room say they see other colors on the covers 
they have - green, etc. 

Well, I don't think there was any purpose served in color-encoding 
the references to publishers -- I was just following the practice 
already established, for humor's sake.


 

Yes, I realized that.  I really did not mean to sound like I was 
criticizing you in this instance, as the pink reference was very much in 
context (more in context if it was corrrect, I suppose, but, whatever...).


It just that there are too many things in the world that are color-coded 
that don't have to be.


A number of years ago, when my orchestra would do some rehearsals at the 
local large university (U. of Louisville) they would give us these 
parking passes that would have one shade of a color, supposedly green, 
on them.  I would drive around until and hold the parking pass up next 
to sign until I found one that looked the same color, as far as I could 
tell.  Then I would come back and find a ticket on my car because that 
wasn't green, it was brown or something.  The supposedly green signs 
looked NOTHING like the shade of green on the parking pass they'd given 
me.  I'd go to the parking office and complain until they would excuse 
the ticket.  The problem was, they'd say, the parking passes and the 
signs are printed by two different companies and they're color greens 
don't match.  I suggested that they paint their colors on the sign and 
the parking pass if they want, but right in the middle put a box with 
the word "GREEN."   They said they'd think about it - and did nothing.


The next year - same damn thing happened. (I tried my best, believe 
me.)  This time I went to the parking office and screamed louder, making 
the same suggestion. They said they'd think about it - and did it!  I 
don't know if I'm the only one who had the problem (I doubt it) or the 
only one who made the suggestion, but it gives me tremendous 
satisfaction to see those signs there with all the different shades of 
green and  brown on them, but with GREEN and BROWN spelled out in the 
middle for the 20 or 25% percent of males who are color-deficient. 

Of course, Kalmus has actually changed its ways and is engraving its 
own editions, some of them actually respectable new editions and not 
stolen from anyone else. This has been the case for about the last 10 
years, at least.
 



Yes, the Master Music catalog has put out some nice, low-cost,  quality 
editions of works that were formerely available only from high priced 
foreign sources.  One dealer told me it was Kalmus's  son, and he was 
interested in input as to what pieces to bring out.  That was several 
years back, though. 
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Re: [Finale] US copyright question - now OT color-coding unfairness

[Raymond Horton]

Raymond Horton wrote:

... it gives me tremendous satisfaction to see those signs there with 
all the different shades of green and  brown on them, but with GREEN 
and BROWN spelled out in the middle for the 20 or 25% percent of males 
who are color-deficient.


I meant to check that figure before I shot off the send button, because 
it sounded high even though it was the one rattling around in my head.   
In a quick Google the figure seems to hover at around 7% of men, ranging 
from a low of 5% to a high of 10%, but the 7% came from what looked like 
a more accurate source in a quick glance.  


I suddenly feel more lonely.

RBH
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Re: [Finale] US copyright question - now OT color-coding unfairness

[Raymond Horton]

David W. Fenton wrote:

The quality of some Kalmus editions is quite high, because until the 
last decade or so, they were all reprints of someone else's edition, 
most public domain, but sometimes including foreign editions that are 
arguably still copyrighted. ...


Kalmus never did that kind of thing -- they just did photographic 
reprints.


 



I was told by a teacher of mine, who was old enough to know ( whether he 
had any other qualifications I don't know), that Kalmus got his start by 
picking up huge quantities of music amid the destruction of WWII.  He 
never engraved, only photographed.  This was great, and terrible.  It 
made huge libraries of great music available  at low cost to us Yanks, 
but which was often  reproduced at such small size, and at poor quality, 
with pencil markings left in for permanant posterity, etc. .   The old, 
traditional Kalmus editions are looked on as one of those problems that 
orchestral players have to deal with. 



The only parts they dislike more are the old french parts with the 
backward quarter rests for eighth rests and other difficulties.




. . . Take a look at the bass trombone part to the Shostakovitch
1st for a real crime - whole passeges left out, and others written in
the wrong octave by someone who couldn't figure out how to convert
alto clef into bass.  Why he/she didn't leave the passage in alto, I
don't know.  ...

Well, that's not so much Kalmus's fault as the fault of the editors 
of whatever edition Kalmus reproduced. My guess it that Kalmus 
probably reprinted a Soviet edition, because for years Soviet 
copyrights were not respected in the West... 
 



In this case, I believe it WAS Kalmus's fault.  It appeared to me that 
K. had only snatched up the score and had the parts badly hand-copied on 
this side of the pond. (This would be an EXCELLENT candidate for Masters 
to issue.)



But the normal Kalmus edition did have pink covers, just as 
Peters/Hinrichsen has green covers and Schirmer the yellow covers 
with dark green ink.
 




David, you may realize at this point I don't really give a flying F what 
color the covers are.  It doesn't help ID them for millions of us. 


Kalmus used pink covers, unquestionably. What's incorrect about it?

 



I confuse pink with some other colors, but not green, and brown, which 
are some of the Kalmus scores I have in my possesion.  I think that, and 
the fact that I already stated that two out of two musician members of 
my family said they have no recollection of pink being a dominant color 
of Kalmus scores, might start to add up.  But have it your way, it if 
makes you happier - pink for Kalmus.  My point is that calling out a 
color for a publisher wasn't an efficient way of ID'ing it, IMHO, 
especially if it isn't universal, and especially if millions of people 
wouldn't recognize the color, even if it was!



It just that there are too many things in the world that are
color-coded that don't have to be.
   



As a computer programmer, I find color encoding extremely useful as a 
shorthand method for conveying useful information. I've never had any 
color-blind clients, so have never had any objections.
 



Bully for you.

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Re: [Finale] US copyright question - now OT color-coding unfairness

[Raymond Horton]

David W. Fenton wrote:

I had forgotten about the green Kalmus covers -- I never owned any of 
those myself, but did use many of them from teachers. Then there are 
the newer eggshell green glossy covers (the orchestral score series), 
and I'd forgotten about those. I have no memory of brown Kalmus 
scores.


I couldn't say if there are any.  Dark green looks like brown to me, 
while light brown looks like green, so I often guess wrong.   I  have 
brown in my memory, but my  wife and daughter said  Kalmus was mostly 
green in their minds, so we are almost certainly thinking of the same 
covers. 


...

But you're right -- Kalmus was not limited to to one color of cover. 
I just associate pink with Kalmus (although there's some German 
publisher that uses it, too).
 



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Re: [Finale] US copyright question - now editions

[Raymond Horton]

Ray Horton wrote:

The only parts they dislike more are the old french parts with the 
backward quarter rests for eighth rests and other difficulties.





John Howell wrote:
Actually it's backward eight rests for quarter rests.  We ran into 
that with the Saint-Saëns A Minor Cello Concerto last spring.  


Ray:
You are correct, of course!  My mistake.  We mainly read them by the 
spacing.  If the spacing is off, we put tails on them. 

And in point of fact, the French rests are more true to the original 
Franconian rests from the 13th century (which is still no excuse!!).


Very interesting, and no excuse whatsoever! 


RBH

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Re: [Finale] ties/accidentals over system breaks

[Raymond Horton]

Darcy James Argue écrit:


I had the opposite instinct -- that a parenthesized courtesy
accidental on a tied note at the beginning of a measure would not
carry through the measure



But what if you don't use parentheses? Then it would carry through. 
One more reason for not having them...


Dennis

Some 19th Century composers, most prominently Berlioz and Verdi, 
followed this norm in their music.  They normally repeated the tied 
accidental on the downbeat, which then carried through the bar.  I have 
observed it in instrumental music of these composers many, many times.

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Re: [Finale] The "lesser-Known Corners"

[Raymond Horton]

On 16 Sep 2005 at 8:56, Williams, Jim wrote:


This exchange leads me to pose the following questions: DO WE HANG OUT
ON ANY OF FINALE'S "LESSER-KNOWN CORNERS? IF SO, HOW MUCH?

Please consider:

1. The ossia tool
   

Gave up on it with the first version I owned, Win 3.7 when, IIRC, it 
would not keep slurs and other elements.  I am contemplating trying it 
again in an upcoming project to see if it has improved.



2. The mirror tool
   

Have never used it, accept by accident. Maybe I should try it sometime. 


3. The tempo tool
   


I only use q = n and expressions to set tempo.


4. The MIDI tool
   

Use this all the time.  I play back most of what I print to check.  I 
make demos using GPO for conductors and others.  I would hate to have to 
export to a sequencer or other program - changes would be a royal 
nuisance.  I prefer to make the playback adjustments needed for a good 
performance in Finale so I can do it with notation and not sequencer 
gibberish.  Since I got an M-Box and ProTools LTE, I have been using 
that for some post-Finale production work on the WAV file, though.




5. The rhyming dictionary
   

I do write some lyrics on occasion and have used this a few times.   


6. The Band-in-a-Box harmonizer.
   

Haven't used it, although I do have an old version of BIAB and have used 
it a handful of times - (when I needed to come up with an ad-lib solo at 
my orchestra job and made a quick rhythm track to practice with). 


David Fenton mentioned a few other tools:

To me, the other strange areas are the chord tool and tab notation, 
 

I have used chord tool quite a lot, back when I wrote charts for my 
church rock band, and at various other times.  I'm sure a lot of folks 
use it. 

I have never used TAB anything - I am a very bad guitarist myself, so I 
wouldn't presume to tell another gutarist where to put his/her fingers 
on the guitar or anywhere else.  I imagine it is useful if it is 
flexible.  ( I write in more decimal point trombone positions [ex. 3.7] 
than would the average guitarist.)


Also, Simple Entry is completely useless, in my opinion, though if 
 



Used Simple Entry when my first Finale machine, with two sound cards, 
had a midi conflict for a while and keyboard entry wouldn't work 
(learned every copy and transpose function quickly as a result) but once 
that was resolved I never went back to it.  I gather that some folks 
prefer it - I can drop it off my menu, so where's the harm?


I also gave up on the transcription tool after several attempts back 
 

I occasionally use the transcription tool for entering simple quarter 
two-eighths types of rhythms.  It can be a little faster, and it can 
also be a change of pace to keep one from getting bored when entering 
notes. 


I also hardly ever use any of the plugins, most of which don't do anything I 
need.
 

I use several of the plugins quite regularly. 


Anybody ever use MicNotator?

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist,
Louisville Orchestra
composer, arranger
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Re: [Finale] Staff Paper?

[Raymond Horton]

Carlberg Jones wrote:


Greetings -

Without going into it myself, will someone please tell me if Finale can
print just staff paper, no clefs, bar lines, etc., to user defined
specifications?

Thanks very much for answering this mundane question.

Regards,

Carlberg
 


Absolutely!

Do you need instructions?

RBH
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Re: [Finale] Staff Paper?

[Raymond Horton]

dhbailey wrote:



Actually, I was wondering what sound lemmings make...



The sound lemmings make is:
"I vote for Roberts for Chief Justice of the Supreme Court."



No, that's the sound of a can of worms being opened...
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Re: [Finale] Working with lyrics - now OT: Cleveland

[Raymond Horton]

I never lived there, but I second that emotion - Cleveland is a great 
town. 



Ray Horton.


David W. Fenton wrote:


On 6 Oct 2005 at 8:13, Chuck Israels wrote:

 

OT: I lived in Cleveland Heights from 1946 to 1952, and I like  
Cleveland too.
   



Here's another former Clevelander checking in: I lived in Northern 
Ohio for 8 years, 4 at Oberlin, and 4 after graduating in Cleveland.


Cleveland is one of the most livable and cultured cities in the 
country. And the summers are really remarkably beautiful -- I believe 
at one point the Cleveland tourist bureau was running an ad that said 
that Cleveland had more sunny days than Tampa, FL, which seems 
unbelievable, but I can't imagine how they could claim it if it 
weren't true. In the summers, Cleveland really is quite beautiful and 
sunny with low humidity and nice breezes off the lake.


And the people of Cleveland are fabulous, as well.

If I ever end up leaving NYC, I'd definitely strongly considering 
moving "home" to Cleveland.


 



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Re: [Finale] Scary bug! loose a file? or lose a file?

[Raymond Horton]

Hey folks,

Please forgive me.  I hesitate to do this, because I am certainly not 
the best speller here, nor anywhere else -and I don't have the world's 
best vocabulary, either, but I am going to point out a very common word 
mistake that I see more and more, (and not just on this forum, to be 
certain).  But I have have seen several times in the last day or so, in 
this discussion of file problems - sometimes in messages from users for 
whom English is a second language, to be sure, but, also, sometimes from 
native speakers.  And that is:


One can not "loose" a file.  One can "lose" a file. 

One could loosen a tie, so it is then loose.  One could then take the 
tie off, and then lose it. 

It's been bothering me all over the Internet, and I'm thinking that this 
is the only place where people are smart enough that they won't mind the 
correction.


RBH
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Re: [Finale] Scary bug! loose a file? or lose a file?

[Raymond Horton]

John Howell wrote:


At 12:35 AM -0400 10/20/05, Raymond Horton wrote:


Hey folks,

One can not "loose" a file.  One can "lose" a file.



Well, one can, of course, "loose" a file containing a virus or trojan 
horse, meaning to turn it loose to do its thing.  But of course you 
are correct.  The two words allow us greater precision in writing 
although the difference might not always be audible in speech.  BOY am 
I glad I didn't have to learn English as a second language!!!


John

You are correct, of course, about loose as a verb, and I concur with 
your latter observation 100%.

RBH
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Re: [Finale] RE: bass clarinet [going TAN]

[Raymond Horton]

Very useful advice, Keith!


Most advanced clarinet players learn to read from concert pitch at some 
point in their careers, so if they can also manage to learn bass clef 
this is a logical next step for bass clarinet.  It's very practical for 
them to get that in early. 



I try to teach high school trombone and euphonium players to read all 
clefs and as many transpositions as practical, too.  For example - F 
horn transposition can be very useful for a euphonium or trombone 
player.  If one goes around to community groups waiting for a part 
labeled and transposed just for their instrument before they can play, 
they will often be left out.  (One can also save a gig for those first 
hectic minutes when another guy's car has broken down somewhere. etc...)



Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist
Louisville Orchestra


keith helgesen wrote:


Some years ago, as a high school band teacher, I required my two bass clari
players to read transposed Bass Clari parts (up 9th) and *concert pitch*
bass clef. Neither was impressed at the time!

However, both have contacted me several times now they are adults, thanking
me for this.
One does Musical Theatre shows all the time- and as she says, can cover
bassoon, cello, trombone, bass or even read the bottom stave of a piano
part. Very useful to a small community theatre group. Covers a multitude of
non-available players!

The other plays in one of the many small town community concert bands here
in Oz, and is always being asked to cover, or bump-up bassoons, troms, euphs
etc.
He is never short of a part to play if there's no bass clari part- unlike
most who end up playing tenor sax parts- usually totally wrong register!

It may not be standard practice, but I have yet to find a downside to it!

Cheers Keith in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Director of Music, Canberra City Band.
Ph: (02) 62910787. Band Mob. 0439-620587
Private Mob 0417-042171



 



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Re: [Finale] changing clefs in bass clarinet

[Raymond Horton]

John Bell wrote:



There are a number of grey (or gray) areas in the field of 
instrumental transpositions. For instance, when I write a harmonic for 
double bass, I notate it at actual pitch in the treble clef. For all I 
know, this may be an out-of-date convention and I should be damned 
like Stravinsky. But I'm only too willing to change this practice if 
someone tells me it's wrong.




Yes, this is correct, but with doublebass you still have to be 
absolutely precise -: is it actual pitch _octave lower_?  Even though 
that is the accepted way, their may still be questions from the players 
unless you specify:


"real sound (sounding 8ba)". 



I suppose the alternative would be "real sound (non 8ba)" but this is 
not standard. 



RBH
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Re: [Finale] changing clefs in bass clarinet

[Raymond Horton]

Lon Price wrote:



As a woodwind player, the only practical reason that I can see for  
writing the bass clef for bass clar. is the avoidance of a lot of  
ledger lines.  As a clarinet player, I'm used to seeing 3 ledger  
lines below the staff, and 4 above.  With the modern bass clar.'s  
ability to play as low as written C 4 ledger lines and a space below  
the treble staff, I can understand why one might want to write  
passages this low in bass clef.  I would think that an even more  
practical approach would be to write the passage an octave higher and  
mark it 8ba., but still in treble clef.  Although I'm capable of  
doing it, I don't like to read anything in bass clef, because I have  
to consciously tell my fingers where to go.  When I read treble clef  
parts, my fingers go to the right keys automatically.  I guess that  
comes from playing sax, clar. and flute for 50 years, all of which  
are written in treble clef.  I can certainly see the practicality of  
training oneself to read bass clef, for the reasons stated by others,  
though.


As a copyist-engraver, I might question the client on writing bass  
clef for bass clar., but ultimately, if that's what he wants, that's  
what I'll give him.


Growing up in concert bands, I'm totally used to thinking of bass 
clarinet in treble clef, and never use bass clef for it, but I'll tell 
you a reason bass clef would be an advantage.  I tend to write a lot of 
low bass lines for bass clarinet and contrabassoon in octaves, and often 
write the bassoons on other lines that put them above the staff.  With 
the bass clarinet way below the treble clef, and the bassoons ranging 
from the middle to well above the bass clef, it really reeks havoc with 
the score spacing.  Also, dynamic placement for those three lines is a 
constant nuisance, since they often share dynamics but not vertical 
spacing.  Tenor clef for the bassoons occasionally helps, but bass clef 
for the bass clarinet would really fix it.  But it causes more problems 
than it fixes, so I don't go there.


RBH
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Re: [Finale] homophones (was changing clefs) now TAN grammar again

[Raymond Horton]

Thanks.  I remember thinking that was probably wrong when I typed it, 
but left it, counting on my spell checker to help me out.  It left me hi 
and drei, of course, since "reek" is correctly spelled - merely the 
wrong word.  



(I obviously need to watch my P's and Q's on this list after my earlier 
post  - I don't want to loose face.) 



RBH.


Christopher Smith wrote:



On Oct 22, 2005, at 1:33 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:


it really reeks havoc with the score spacing.



Since I know from your recent posts that you are the kind of guy who 
hates to use the wrong homophone, I'm sure you won't take it badly 
when I point out that you probably meant to say "wreaks."


Other substitutions I see all the time are "affect" and "effect", as 
in "he effected a change that affected everyone,"  and "wet" for 
"whet", as in "we can whet our appetites with a bite of cheese, and 
then we can wet our fingers in the fingerbowls."


This subject makes me very unpopular at dinner parties. 8-(

Christopher


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Re: [Finale] Right-left page annoyance

[Raymond Horton]

Actually, on Win-Finale printing 2-page 11x17 parts is quite easy.
And I prefer page numbers the traditional way - left-even, right-odd.
  Otherwise, if you have page numbers printed they are both on the
inside and that is tacky (they can be moved, but, I guess I am just a
traditionalist.)

For works in which the parts are 2 page, I routinely insert a a title
page, and also insert a page 4 with page number and the usual title
and part info at the top.  Then I print all the parts front and back
on 11x17.  This is very quick to set up for all parts (the inserted
title page for the parts does not have to show up on the score), keeps
the pagination correct, and it avoids a common problem - stay with me,
now:

If a player has a 2-page, 11x17 part folded in his folder with page
one facing him, he often pulls it out and starts playing, and
sometimes does not notice that it needs to be unfolded until too late.
 In some folders that have seen the rounds one will see "OPEN OUT"
scrawled across the top by a previous player.  The added title page
requires the player to open up the two page part before starting.
(Yes, I understand that this could be a problem for quick segues, but
if I'm writing for quick segues I plan those as well.  I don't usually
do single charts for pops, etc, so YMMV.)

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:25 PM, John Howell  wrote:
> At 2:51 PM -0400 10/21/11, Aaron Sherber wrote:
>>Finale always assumes that
>>the first page is RH, regardless of the number. This makes sense for
>>printing as well.
>
> So does Sibelius.  This makes sense ONLY if you
> are going to print as a booklet.  For that, it's
> standard.  It makes NO sense if your parts are
> going to be 2-page, printed side-by-side on
> 11"x17" paper.  And neither Finale nor Sibelius
> makes it easy to set that up, so the default
> behavior puts the page number on the inside of
> page 2 rather than the outside.
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> School of Performing Arts & Cinema
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
>
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> (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms
>
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Re: [Finale] Right-left page annoyance

[Raymond Horton]

Of course it is easy to change.  (The only lister who implied it was not
hasn't actually used Finale since sometime in the late 50s.)  I still
prefer, as a general rule, odd pages on the right, etc.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:57 PM, David H. Bailey <
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com> wrote:

> On 10/23/2011 9:49 AM, Robert Patterson wrote:
> > I'm really confused by this thread. Setting up page numbers on whichever
> > side you want them is trivially easy, so what's all the grousing about?
> > Someone explain to me exactly what they want and I'll tell you how to do
> it.
> >
>
> You mean actually editing the page number assignments so that the even
> numbers are on the left corner of the page and not the right?  And the
> same for the odd page numbers being on the right corner of the page?
> That's easy?  C'mon, it must take at least, what, 2 or 3 clicks!  Double
> that to get both even and odd pages and you've got 4 or 6 mouse clicks!
>  A person might get arthritis with all that mouse clicking!  ;-)
>
>
> --
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> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Page turns for parts

[Raymond Horton]

Requiring a trombonist to turning the page while playing in 3rd or 4th
position is asking for those notes to be very badly sustained - really
impossible to play in tune.  I suggest this for the circus band trombonist
only.

A good general rule for arrangements and compositions alike is - if you
cannot find a place for a page turn on a brass part, chances are quite high
that you are writing too much for the brass.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 11:18 PM, John Howell  wrote:

> One other thought.  A trombone does NOT have to
> be in 1st position.  It can be in 3rd, or sort of
> in 4th, where the fingers of the right hand can
> grab the bell for a short time.  Awkward, but
> do-able.  A trumpet can have any valve
> combination down, not just open, although a 1-3
> or 1-2-3 note might be sharp played with one
> hand.  The problem with horn (and in some cases
> with tuba or euphonium) is that there are times
> when both hands are in use.
>
> The obvious answer, of course, would be to put
> the music on iPads, with a foot pedal to turn
> pages.  Only about a $100,000 option!!!  I know
> WE won't be buying them soon!
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> School of Performing Arts & Cinema
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
>
> "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
> (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms
>
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Re: [Finale] Page turns for parts

[Raymond Horton]

Let me expand on what I said earlier - that if one has page turn problems
for the brass, one has likely written too much for the brass.  This is
true, to a less full extent, for all instruments, and it is true not just
because of likely player fatigue but likely listener fatigue as well.

And I agree 100% about Hal Leonard and small stave size - really a problem.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:27 PM, John Howell  wrote:

> That's true, BUT I would urge caution.  It has
> always been so easy to shrink the staves in
> Finale to get more on a page that there are a
> great many publications--including a lot of them
> from Hal Leonard--which are VERY hard to read for
> those of us with older eyes.  The folks at MOLA
> recommend staves between 7 and 8 mm, because
> that's what their orchestra members tell them
> they want to see.  Back when I was using Mosaic I
> used 20 or 22 points for parts.  Of course it's
> also possible to have the staves TOO large, and I
> ran into one like that only this Fall!  I can't
> help thinking that some engravers are not
> actually working musicians who have to READ these
> things.
>
> John
>
>
> At 8:22 PM + 11/5/11, Steve Parker wrote:
> >In line with what John is saying, sometimes
> >reducing the system size by a couple of percent
> >will get you out of trouble.
> >
> >Steve P.
> >
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[Finale] {Fraud?} {Disarmed} Re: Page turns for parts

[Raymond Horton]

My very first pro orchestra gig, as an 18-year old sub, had a harmon + left
hand wah-wah passage with one low Db in the middle of several non-valve
notes.  Fortunately I remembered false tones and faked it in 6th.  It's on
a recording that was just re-released on Itunes.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:33 PM, dershem  wrote:

> On 11/5/2011 12:17 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
> > Yeah  I find playing the Bass Bone, any way, that grabbing the
> > bell with the R.H. to free up the L.H. for turning, is real
> > difficult  and assumes the L.H. can even reach the page  to turn
> > it, which is usually on the right side of the desk.
> >
> > Dean
>
> I was playing a piece the other day where all four of the trombone parts
> were on plunger.  And the bass bone parts were all trigger parts.
>
> You'd think that Sammy, being a trombonist himself, would know better!
>
> cd
> --
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> http://projectselene.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Finale] Since it has been quiet I have a question...

[Raymond Horton]

I beg the list's pardon, since this has been addressed often in the
past, but I don't use it much so I don't pay attention.  I could check
archives, but since it HAS been quiet here:

What is the best way to indicate a time signature of 6/8 followed by
3/4 in parenthesis?  My daughter has written a very nice choral piece,
and asked me how to do this tonight, and I was so ashamed at, for like
the first time, not being the family Finale expert.  Playback and note
groupings are no problem.

I've been trying to construct one in the expression tool using text,
superscript, line spacing and cussing with only C to C- results.
There must be a better way!

Thanks

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Lawrence Yates  wrote:
> Has the list been very quiet or am I just not receiving?
>
> I'm about to upgrade from WinFin2006 to 2012 and hoped there might be some
> discussion going on (now as opposed to in the archives)
>
> --
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Re: [Finale] Since it has been quiet I have a question...

[Raymond Horton]

Thanks, Mark.

Sorry to be slow in acknowledging your response - usually there are
more than one, and I acknowledge/discuss them all at once.

Your method is better than what I was doing, but can I trust those two
items will stay together in proper position?

Raymond Horton



On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 3:00 AM, Mark D Lew  wrote:
> On Nov 8, 2011, at 8:19 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> What is the best way to indicate a time signature of 6/8 followed by
>> 3/4 in parenthesis?
>
> My default plan would be:
>
> 1. Check "use a different time signature for display".
>
> 2. Pick "composite" for the display time sig, and set it up as 6/8 + 3/4.
>
> 3. Under Document Options > Time Signature change the plus character to a 
> fixed space. (I use opt-space on Mac, gives better spacing than an ordinary 
> space; it shows as 202 on Finale's character chart.)
>
> 4. Then set up the parentheses as a text expression.
>
> This work in most cases, though it can cause spacing difficulties if one 
> falls at the end of the system.  It's also a problem if you need a real 
> composite time signature with a plus elsewhere in the piece.
>
> mdl
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Re: [Finale] rehearsal letters not showing

[Raymond Horton]

Or simply check "top staff" for parts, then you won't have to concern
yourself with it again.
On Nov 13, 2011 7:26 AM, "Haroldo Mauro Jr"  wrote:

> Of course! The new instruments had to be added to the score list. Thank
> you!
> Harold
>
>
>
> At 12:18 +0100 13/11/11, Jari Williamsson wrote:
> >On 2011-11-13 10:40, Haroldo Mauro Jr wrote:
> >> On a finished score, I added two new parts: flute and tenor sax.
> >> The linked parts created for these instruments do not show
> >> rehearsal letters, as all the others do. I tried "unlink" and
> >> then "relink" to parts one of the letters (text expression)
> >> in the score. No use. Any suggestions? Thank you.
> >
> >Double-check the score list for the category that the rehearsal marks
> >are connected to.
> >
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Jari Williamsson
> >
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Re: [Finale] measufre number panic

[Raymond Horton]

To create page numbers:
Click on the text tool.  Click on the approximate place you want a page
number, then click on "Text / Inserts / Page number."  The page number will
appear.  Highlight it and under the same "text" menu you can "edit page
offset" if the page numbers you want to display is different then the
actual page number, change "justification" or "alignment" to whatever you
want, and, especially, use "Frame attributes" to determine which pages (to
blank page one) and to position them right and left (using "right page
positioning").


Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:35 PM, Chuck Israels  wrote:

> Hi Linda,
>
> Have you tried deleting and re-creating the entire number range in the
> measure tool menu?  I would try that.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2011, at 3:17 PM, Linda Worsley wrote:
>
> > I accidentally deleted a page number on a TERRIBLY HARD score, and all
> the
> > page numbers disappeared.  Agghh.  And I can't find a way to get them
> > back.
> >
> > Mac - Finale 2010 - HELP!
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Linda Worsley
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>
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>
> 
> 
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Re: [Finale] Click Assignment

[Raymond Horton]

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Richard Huggins wrote:

>
> ..  A fast key combo would make SUCH a difference!
> Along with that, the ability to use arrow keys and a key combo to
> cause the next word to be entered, thus eliminating mouse positioning,
> would be glorious. Lastly would someone
> please create a word-dividing app, putting the hyphens in the right
> place in one fell swoop? !
>
> RH
>

I second those motions, heartily!
   RH
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Re: [Finale] Click Assignment

[Raymond Horton]

I've wanted this for years!  Thank you so much!

Raymond Horton

>
> For hyphenation, I use this website:
>
> http://juiciobrennan.com/hyphenator/
>
> You have to check the results, as it doesn't always return what you think is 
> right ("bless-ed" instead of "blessed": "pleas-ed" instead of "pleased", for 
> example) and it doesn't seem to know contractions ("hadn't" comes back 
> undivided), and it doesn't know slang ("gonna" and "havin'" stump it) as well 
> as many proper names don't get divided. But it's great!
>
> Christopher
>
>

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Re: [Finale] Click Assignment

[Raymond Horton]

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 12:40 PM, John Howell  wrote:

> I've been writing vocal charts for upwards of 60
> years, and I strongly advise using normal,
> dictionary hyphenation in ALMOST every case.  It
> comes under "better the devil you know ..."
>
>  John
>


Excellent advice - I agree 100%.

And every time I think I know the rules I am surprised by some exception.
 I try to find authoritative sources whenever possible.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
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Re: [Finale] Click Assignment

[Raymond Horton]

Ok, it is very simple, then.  I am enough of an authority in harmony to
trust my own judgement.  The same is NOT true when it comes to language, so
I look for other authority.  If I find disagreement among such authorities
on hyphenation, I'll do what I like.

But your parallel is not an equal one.  If an informed composer chooses to
break the rules of harmony, the sound will be readily apparent.  If he/she
breaks the rules of hyphenation, the sound will be apparent only if it is
for some clear and obvious purpose - but the choir director or singer may
easily ignore odd divisions and sing it normally - not so with harmony.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 8:03 PM, Mark D Lew  wrote:

> On Dec 4, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
> > And every time I think I know the rules I am surprised by some exception.
> > I try to find authoritative sources whenever possible.
>
> Maybe it's because this is close to my specialty, but I think I would
> dissent from this.
>
> The authoritative sources do, in fact, get it right.  But I think we
> should strive to understand why words are hyphenated the way they are so
> that we too can come up with the best answer, rather than simply appeal to
> authority.  Otherwise, how do you know which sources are authoritative?
>
> It's the same idea as "rules" of harmony. The rules are not arbitrary.
> They were written for good reason. They stand as guidelines and reminders
> to us of what that good reason is. But when you follow those rules, you do
> so because they work and help you achieve the results you want, not just
> because the book said so.
>
> mdl
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Re: [Finale] Click Assignment

[Raymond Horton]

Much better!

The Poulenc Sonata for Horn, Trumpet, and Trombone is full of jokes,
obvious and not so, in the outer movements.  These include a few in
the notation, of which my favorite are a couple of examples of
syncopated rests.  Once I told an audience to be sure and listen for
them.

I was so saddened to see a new engraving of it that eliminated them,
as well as a few other features-not-bugs.


Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Mark D Lew  wrote:
> On Dec 4, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> But your parallel is not an equal one.  If an informed composer chooses to
>> break the rules of harmony, the sound will be readily apparent.  If he/she
>> breaks the rules of hyphenation, the sound will be apparent only if it is
>> for some clear and obvious purpose - but the choir director or singer may
>> easily ignore odd divisions and sing it normally - not so with harmony.
>
>
> Good point.  I suppose a better comparison would be the typographic rules of 
> engraving, which I will generally follow but would not hesitate to break for 
> the sake of better clarity and communication.
>
> mdl
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Re: [Finale] Printing the size of a stamp

[Raymond Horton]

It hits me, very occasionally and at random, in Finale Windows 2011.  I can
rarely find a cause, and it nearly always goes away when I print again.

Two days ago, very late at night I printed, punched and bound a 14
page letter-sized orchestra score.  When I leafed through it to check - I
yelped out loud as I saw that the odd pages 3 through 15 were
postage-stamps and I had not noticed.  I printed those pages again - no
problem until odd pages 11 through 15.  Third time was the charm. I made no
change to the file.  That was the first time I had seen the bug in months,

Some have said it has something to do with multi-measure rests, but I think
I have had it hit in files with none.   Not sure what the solution there
was - just breaking them and re-creating them, perhaps?

In FinWin 2007 that bug was nearly disabling, (for me, but almost no one
else experienced it) - once it hit a file I could not get it to go away.
 The only solution then was to print to a PDF file using CutePDF.

What version and platform are you?

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:07 PM, Barbara Touburg  wrote:

> I knew the solution once, but alas, senior moment...
> Finale prints the contents of a page at the size of a stamp in the top
> left corner. Can someone remind me what the solution was again? Thanks!
>
> Barbara
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Re: [Finale] Printing the size of a stamp

[Raymond Horton]

Quite odd.  For me, I believe the bug went away completely when I upgraded
to 2008 (and no longer affected the files that always were afflicted by it
in 2007) and only occasionally returned with either 2010 or 11.  And very
few other people beside yourself and I have ever reported it.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Barbara Touburg  wrote:

> Raymond Horton wrote:
>
> ...
> >
> > Some have said it has something to do with multi-measure rests, but I
> think
> > I have had it hit in files with none.   Not sure what the solution there
> > was - just breaking them and re-creating them, perhaps?
>
> I think I remember faking those rests.
> >
> > In FinWin 2007 that bug was nearly disabling, (for me, but almost no one
> > else experienced it) - once it hit a file I could not get it to go away.
> >  The only solution then was to print to a PDF file using CutePDF.
>
> I'll try thet tomorrow (23:51 over here).
> >
> > What version and platform are you?
>
> FinWin 2008, XP, SP3.
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Re: [Finale] Printing the size of a stamp

[Raymond Horton]

Yeah, like I said, It hits me, very occasionally and at random, in Finale
Windows 2011.  I can rarely find a cause, and it nearly always goes away
when I print again.

To clarify how it hit me two days ago: this was a 16 page file,
letter-sized, front and back.  I had already printed 1 & 2 to card stock,
and then printed pages 3 through 16, left (even) pages only - it printed
pages 4,6,8, etc, no problem.  Then, when I turned the stack over and
commanded the magic box to print pages 3 through 16, right (odd) pages
only, it printed a good page 3 on the back of page 4, but the rest of the
pages were postage size, in the  top left corner.

After I discovered the problem, I reprinted pages 5 through 16, left
(even) pages only - it printed pages 6,8, etc, no problem.  I turned them
over, started to print right (odd) pages only, it printed good pages 5,7,9,
and postage stamp sized 11, 13, 15.   The third attempt for those last
several pages, printed back to back, worked fine.  At no time did I change
any printer settings or anything in the Finale file.

In the previous times this has hit I ruled out printer settings, also.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Dalvin Boone wrote:

> My suggestion would be to review ALL the choices you've made in the "Page
> Setup" and "Print" dialogue boxes, and then in the Print box click on
> "setup" or whatever it is in 2008, which will take you to your printer's
> setup (and check all the choices there).  You've probably already done this
> several times, but it wouldn't hurt to review these again, and maybe even
> "experiment" a little.
>
> Are you printing one page of music to one letter size sheet of paper - or
> something else?
>
> Dalvin Boone
>
> -Original Message-
> From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf
> Of
> Barbara Touburg
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 5:52 PM
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] Printing the size of a stamp
>
> Raymond Horton wrote:
>
> ...
> >
> > Some have said it has something to do with multi-measure rests, but I
> think
> > I have had it hit in files with none.   Not sure what the solution there
> > was - just breaking them and re-creating them, perhaps?
>
> I think I remember faking those rests.
> >
> > In FinWin 2007 that bug was nearly disabling, (for me, but almost no one
> > else experienced it) - once it hit a file I could not get it to go away.
> >  The only solution then was to print to a PDF file using CutePDF.
>
> I'll try thet tomorrow (23:51 over here).
> >
> > What version and platform are you?
>
> FinWin 2008, XP, SP3.
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Re: [Finale] Staff attributes question

[Raymond Horton]

An easy fix would be a "New Staff (with Setup Wizard)."  Then copy everything.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Barbara Levy  wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Hi, all I'm in the process of copying a clarinet with piano 
> accompaniment work and am running into a problem... The notation for the 
> clarinet part is in F major; the piano part is in Eb.  OK, so far, so good.  
> I've set the transposition attributes for the clarinet part to  "(Bb) Up M2, 
> Add 2 Sharps" which should allow playback at concert pitch.   For some 
> reason, I cannot get this setting to stick!  Finale keeps resetting to "(Bb 
> treble clef) Up M9, add 2 Sharps" which causes the playback to be an octave 
> too low.  I've changed the staff to "clarinet" within the instrument list. 
> What am I missing or doing wrong?  Help, please!!!  I need to have this done 
> by Monday! Barb levybarb...@msn.com
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Re: [Finale] Removing horizontal adjustments in spacing

[Raymond Horton]

Another way:

Go to

Document. / Document Options / Music Spacing

by Manual Positioning, select "clear."

Then, with Selection Tool, select the area you want, or Ctrl-A for the
whole document, and re-space with Ctrl-4 or  Ctrl-5, ..


Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 4:24 PM, dc  wrote:

> Le 16/01/2012 21:52, Fiskum, Steve écrit :
> > Robert Patterson's Plug-in "Mass Copy"
> > Select "Note Position Adjustments" and click on the "Clear" button at the
> > top.
>
> Thanks, Steve. This works perfectly. But I'm almost sure I did it some
> other way (TGT?).
>
> I need to make notes of these things!
>
> Dennis
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Re: [Finale] spacing bug?

[Raymond Horton]

WinFin 2011.r2

It behaves exactly as you describe.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Ryan  wrote:
> Finale 2012a
> MacOS 10.5.8
>
> Can anyone else recreate this?
>
> In 3/2, 6/4, or 12/8 time, put in a dotted whole note. In another layer,
> force a whole rest (speedy entry 7).
> Space the measure.
> I get extra space added to the front of the measure. If I remove the forced
> whole rest, it is spaced normally. If I change the dotted whole note to any
> other note value and/or rhythmic combination, it is spaced normally. If I
> change the forced whole rest to other rest values, it is spaced normally.
> I get this bad spacing no matter which layer the notes are entered in.
> This seems to only happen when there's a dotted whole note on the first
> beat in conjunction with a forced whole rest. If you use a whole rest and
> fill the rest of the measure with rests, it doesn't happen. But, filling
> the other voice with more than a whole rest isn't standard, so I'd like to
> avoid it.
>
> (I get this in larger time signatures like 9/4, 12/4, etc.)
>
> Finale Tech support claims not to get this bug. They recommended I trash
> preferences and restart. The same behavior still happens.
>
> This also happens in my version of 2010 and 2008.
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