Re: [Fink-devel] fink-created user problem on macosxhints
At 15:43 Uhr -0700 01.05.2002, Ben Hines wrote: At 11:35 PM +0200 5/1/02, Max Horn wrote: At 3:37 Uhr -0700 30.04.2002, Ben Hines wrote: At 10:25 AM +0200 4/30/02, Bernd Kuemmerlen wrote: As this has been discussed on this list last week, maybe someone with a little bit more insight on this issue might comment on this on macosxhints? Maybe a hint on how to update passwd before 0.4.1 is out? Sigh.. I said we should have done a .4.0a just to fix this. sarcasm Oops, sorry I completely missed you volunteered to do all the release work, cool. Go ahead and release 0.4.0a, please. I am glad you have enough time to cope with all the details involved etc. Thanks for volunteering, I am eager to see 0.4.0a! When can we expect you to announce the release? /sarcasm Let me first point out that I am not really interested in a flame war, it serves no purpose. That's also why I marked what I said for what it was (pure sarcasm). And I am not feeling guilty for it, either, it's simply a way to vent stacked up frustration, and is certainly not meant personal against you, Ben. If I wanted to get personal I'd get myself a big trout and thwap you with it 8-) Max, i am happy to help. Glad to hear! This bug is probably about the worst case scenario for any possible bug fink could have. Slightly worse being if we rm -rfed the entire disk. I have a different view, let me tell you how I perceived this bug so far (and please read it fully before bashing at me): A pretty nasty bug, but I have yet to hear a single direct report of it affecting anybody. I know it did happen, but I never met anybody to whom it happend. Hence in my eyes it's a problem with very serious consequences, but which luckily isn't very likely to happen. Still something that should be fixed of course Now you might disagree, but mind you, that's how I perceived it based on the input I got. If nobody points out problems strongly enough to me, I can't judge them correctly. But of course, Fink is a *group effort*. So I think problems should not always require me to look at them (and luckily they usually don't). In this case it sadly took an extremly long time for the passwd package to be fixed (note that I do not intend to attack Finlay with this now, I know he was busy; I am just try to recount things as I see them). Also maybe the problem was underestimated, but based on the input we got on it, it didn't look like that. The next bad thing that happend (or rather did not happen) was that passwd never was fixed in stable! That's pretty stupid of course, and I still don't quite understand how it could end up like this. Maybe if we had a QA team that would check this sort of things full time in a properly organized fashion, this wouldn't happen. Alas, we don't have this, nor does it look to me we really will have on anytime soon (but volunteers are always welcome :-). It simply isn't sufficient to check this sort of problems a couple of days before a release, you never catch them all. If any product of mine had such a bug I would have released an update immediately. (back in october, i believe, when the bug first appeared) For the records, the first time I heard about this was with this bug report from the end of January: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=508902group_id=17203atid=117203 Also note that the passwd in the bindist is the new (fixed) one, and has been so since the release of the bindist. At least a file release or news item of ONLY passwd. (you don't have to release an entire fink update!) But nothing was posted. No news. No Warning to fink users. Yes, there probably should have been some warnings. A pity nobody thought of it, or suggested it. :-( No partial file release. No nothing. Updated in stable-cvs, and updated in bindist is not nothing. Just short statements that smart users won't delete users with system preferences. I agree that's a stupid statement to make (I don't recall it was made, nor by whom, but that's really unimportant now). Why the hostility towards the users? The only clue that the fink devs know anything about this bug has been on this mailing list. Woa woa, that's a heavy accusation, claiming we are hostile to end users, and in my eyes extremly unfair. I think we have proven often enough we are not. Look at the heaps of mails dedicated members of the Fink community write every day to help answers dozens of support requests (of which a non-to-small percentage are not even directly fink releated), providing for a free help of high quality. We are only humans not machines, and not even paid for this. Maybe your expectations are to high? I didnt even mention you in the damn message, Max. I did NOT say Max should have done a new release. Well, since I am the one in charge of releases, the responsible guy, there wasn't much room to interpret it, was there? Of course I don't think you meant it personal, but that doesn't
Re: [Fink-devel] fink-created user problem on macosxhints
At 1:22 PM +0200 5/2/02, Max Horn wrote: At least a file release or news item of ONLY passwd. (you don't have to release an entire fink update!) But nothing was posted. No news. No Warning to fink users. Yes, there probably should have been some warnings. A pity nobody thought of it, or suggested it. :-( Hmm, ok it wasn't october, but i suggested this on 2002-03-04 in the bug report. https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=508902group_id=17203atid=117203 Just short statements that smart users won't delete users with system preferences. I agree that's a stupid statement to make (I don't recall it was made, nor by whom, but that's really unimportant now). http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=17203atid=117203func=detailaid=543311 almost verbatim. Why the hostility towards the users? The only clue that the fink devs know anything about this bug has been on this mailing list. Woa woa, that's a heavy accusation, claiming we are hostile to end users, and in my eyes extremly unfair. I think we have proven often enough we are not. Look at the heaps of mails dedicated members of the Fink community write every day to help http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=17203atid=117203func=detailaid=543311 almost verbatim. -Ben -- http://homepage.mac.com/bhines/ ___ Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] fink-created user problem on macosxhints
At 3:37 Uhr -0700 30.04.2002, Ben Hines wrote: At 10:25 AM +0200 4/30/02, Bernd Kuemmerlen wrote: As this has been discussed on this list last week, maybe someone with a little bit more insight on this issue might comment on this on macosxhints? Maybe a hint on how to update passwd before 0.4.1 is out? Sigh.. I said we should have done a .4.0a just to fix this. sarcasm Oops, sorry I completely missed you volunteered to do all the release work, cool. Go ahead and release 0.4.0a, please. I am glad you have enough time to cope with all the details involved etc. Thanks for volunteering, I am eager to see 0.4.0a! When can we expect you to announce the release? /sarcasm Seriously, I am not a machine! And I have no time to make yet another release so soon. It's not a thing you just do quickly, a full relase (even a minor one like this) takes a lot of time, it has to be done with great care and various factors have to be considered (like for example stable changed a lot since then. Which changes should be incorporated, which not?). No way that I make a new Fink release, even a minor one in the next few weeks. But I do realize that it's risky if we depend too much on me for making releases. Not only is it a problem should I leave Fink (very well possible), but it's also a problem now since it taxes me a lot. Less so compared to when Chrisp left us, since I sat down and wrote some docs (based on instructions Christoph mailed me, and based on my own findings) for the dist tools. Dunno if anybody ever read them, so maybe they are crap, but since I never got feedback on them, there's nothing I can do about it... So, I'd appreciate if some people would work together with me on the next release. I'd be willing to teach what I know about the release process. E.g. they could follow me doing the 0.4.1 release, and learn from this how to do it. Any such watcher could also try to augment the docs I wrote based on his learnings, filling its gaps. Note that you must be willing to be around for 1-2 days. FYI, you must distinguish between preparation of the release (includes testing all sorts of things), the actual release, and the bindist update, which are really three different things, the first of them taking the most resources. I figured at least one more user would hose their install. And yep. I put a note on there saying how to get the new passwd from fink. Thanks for this. Max -- --- Max Horn Software Developer email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: (+49) 6151-494890 ___ Have big pipes? SourceForge.net is looking for download mirrors. We supply the hardware. You get the recognition. Email Us: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] fink-created user problem on macosxhints
At 10:25 AM +0200 4/30/02, Bernd Kuemmerlen wrote: As this has been discussed on this list last week, maybe someone with a little bit more insight on this issue might comment on this on macosxhints? Maybe a hint on how to update passwd before 0.4.1 is out? Sigh.. I said we should have done a .4.0a just to fix this. I figured at least one more user would hose their install. And yep. I put a note on there saying how to get the new passwd from fink. -Ben -- http://homepage.mac.com/bhines/ ___ Fink-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
