Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Jason Van Cleave]

A huge portion of getting a decent job or freelance work is getting your
name out there and building experience by finishing projects.

College was a great place for me to meet people with connections in the
field. I dropped out when one of the adjunct professors hired me, that lead
to a job at an agency, more freelance work, relevant experience, etc. I
eventually finished the degree years later (mostly just to do it).

So yeah, send out the portfolios and see what happens. People should let you
know what they are looking for. Often it takes time so I wouldn't drop out
without having something concrete to go on.

On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Anthony Pace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how difficult is
> it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?
>
> I need a a stable job ASAP; yet, I have two more years to go before I
> complete my degree in computer science; thus, I am wondering how difficult
> it would be to find a programming related job without a degree?  Do all I
> need is a portfolio, or does the piece of paper really make the difference
> at an entry level?
>
> I also have a background in fine art if that helps.
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony Pace
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[chas warn]

The tool you've got in front of you will tell you everything you need to
know.  Give or take.

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 1:40 AM, allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com) <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> so here's a question - if you have spent any amount of time doing the job,
> would you consider going back and getting degree?
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Helmut Granda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
>
> > Right, and that is why I partially agree with the post I was referring
> to,
> > specially because life without a college is not for everyone.
> > Going back to my main point I still believe that not having a degree does
> > not necessary mean that you are not motivated.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Kerry Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Helmut Granda wrote:
> > >
> > > > But i still feel that not having a degree shows that you are not
> > > motivated.
> > >
> > > That's a good rule of thumb, and words to live by (and study by). Of
> > > course,
> > > we can point to the exceptions--Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, I
> > > believe
> > > it was--but the odds are heavily in your favor with a degree. From time
> > to
> > > time I see reports of studies that show lifetime earnings, and, without
> > > exception, average lifetime earnings with a degree are hundreds of
> > > thousands
> > > of dollars more than without.
> > >
> > > Cordially,
> > >
> > > Kerry Thompson
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Flashcoders mailing list
> > > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ...helmut
> > ___
> > Flashcoders mailing list
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Hans Wichman]

HI,

ok formal cs university degree here... would I recommend it? Erm depends on
the work you have to do. I don't believe it's the best education/background
for this kind of work. It has helped me to do the work I have to do, but
it's not helping me getting the work I want to do :). And then again it's
been so long ago, I'm probably led by experience 99% of the time anyway and
not by what I 'learned' in school.
When the kids grow a little bit older I'll be sure to pickup some kind of
education again, but it will probably be art or music (or psychology always
a favorite as well). I don't see myself doing CS university stuff again to
see what's new in the field, I'd rather do some selfstudy then.
One of the biggest issues I always had with this kind of education is that,
although you learn to stick through something hard etc etc, almost none of
the teachers could give me a valid reason why I had to learn what they were
teaching. Instead of "well if you are building this cool rpg game you'll be
needing a*", it was more like "well because I was told to teach you this
stuff". That's why it's theorical cs, you know a lot, and you can't do
[EMAIL PROTECTED] if you don't get some work experience :)

regards,
JC

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 7:26 PM, Kerry Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> John Winkelman wrote:
>
> > Well, I got my degree in Russian Studies, which means I can read all of
> my
> > spam.
>
> LOL. It must be Friday.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Kerry Thompson
>
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Kerry Thompson]

John Winkelman wrote:

> Well, I got my degree in Russian Studies, which means I can read all of my
> spam. 

LOL. It must be Friday.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)]

lol

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:22 PM, John Winkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, I got my degree in Russian Studies, which means I can read all of my
> spam. I guess that counts for something.
>
>
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.eccesignum.org
>
>
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[John Winkelman]

Well, I got my degree in Russian Studies, which means I can read all of my
spam. I guess that counts for something.



-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.eccesignum.org


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Helmut Granda]

I do have a degree and going back to college for a second degree is part of
my TODO list.

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 3:40 AM, allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com) <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> so here's a question - if you have spent any amount of time doing the job,
> would you consider going back and getting degree?
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Helmut Granda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
>
> > Right, and that is why I partially agree with the post I was referring
> to,
> > specially because life without a college is not for everyone.
> > Going back to my main point I still believe that not having a degree does
> > not necessary mean that you are not motivated.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Kerry Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Helmut Granda wrote:
> > >
> > > > But i still feel that not having a degree shows that you are not
> > > motivated.
> > >
> > > That's a good rule of thumb, and words to live by (and study by). Of
> > > course,
> > > we can point to the exceptions--Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, I
> > > believe
> > > it was--but the odds are heavily in your favor with a degree. From time
> > to
> > > time I see reports of studies that show lifetime earnings, and, without
> > > exception, average lifetime earnings with a degree are hundreds of
> > > thousands
> > > of dollars more than without.
> > >
> > > Cordially,
> > >
> > > Kerry Thompson
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Flashcoders mailing list
> > > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ...helmut
> > ___
> > Flashcoders mailing list
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>



-- 
...helmut
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Kerry Thompson]

allandt bik-elliott wrote:

> so here's a question - if you have spent any amount of time doing the job,
> would you consider going back and getting degree?

Well, I have a degree--two of them, in fact, though neither in the field of
computer science.

When I was younger, I thought of going back for my CS degree, but there was
always a well-paying job that took precedence. Now, at the age of 58, I will
wait until I retire to get that other degree, probably in linguistics.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)]

so here's a question - if you have spent any amount of time doing the job,
would you consider going back and getting degree?

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Helmut Granda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Right, and that is why I partially agree with the post I was referring to,
> specially because life without a college is not for everyone.
> Going back to my main point I still believe that not having a degree does
> not necessary mean that you are not motivated.
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Kerry Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >wrote:
>
> > Helmut Granda wrote:
> >
> > > But i still feel that not having a degree shows that you are not
> > motivated.
> >
> > That's a good rule of thumb, and words to live by (and study by). Of
> > course,
> > we can point to the exceptions--Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, I
> > believe
> > it was--but the odds are heavily in your favor with a degree. From time
> to
> > time I see reports of studies that show lifetime earnings, and, without
> > exception, average lifetime earnings with a degree are hundreds of
> > thousands
> > of dollars more than without.
> >
> > Cordially,
> >
> > Kerry Thompson
> >
> > ___
> > Flashcoders mailing list
> > Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> > http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ...helmut
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Helmut Granda]

Right, and that is why I partially agree with the post I was referring to,
specially because life without a college is not for everyone.
Going back to my main point I still believe that not having a degree does
not necessary mean that you are not motivated.

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Kerry Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Helmut Granda wrote:
>
> > But i still feel that not having a degree shows that you are not
> motivated.
>
> That's a good rule of thumb, and words to live by (and study by). Of
> course,
> we can point to the exceptions--Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, I
> believe
> it was--but the odds are heavily in your favor with a degree. From time to
> time I see reports of studies that show lifetime earnings, and, without
> exception, average lifetime earnings with a degree are hundreds of
> thousands
> of dollars more than without.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Kerry Thompson
>
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>



-- 
...helmut
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Kerry Thompson]

Helmut Granda wrote:

> But i still feel that not having a degree shows that you are not
motivated.

That's a good rule of thumb, and words to live by (and study by). Of course,
we can point to the exceptions--Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, I believe
it was--but the odds are heavily in your favor with a degree. From time to
time I see reports of studies that show lifetime earnings, and, without
exception, average lifetime earnings with a degree are hundreds of thousands
of dollars more than without.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[chas warn]

Good points Kerry.

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Kerry Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Chas Warn wrote:
>
> > One guy may write a function in a few lines - another may take pages of
> code
> > to do the exact same thing. Who has the more logical brain? Who is the
> > better programmer?
>
> I'm not sure that's a good criterion. I'm more interested in how well the
> code performs, how well it is documented, and how easy it is to maintain.
> Sometimes shorter code == more obscure code. Not always, of course--often
> shorter code == a more elegant solution.
>
> There used to be contests to see who could cram the most C code into one
> line. I have serious doubts about the value of that contest. Code should be
> readable, documented, and maintainable.
>
> Also, sometimes more code == faster code. Consider looping through an
> array--if you use an extra line to store the count, a for loop should run
> faster than if you use something like myArray.count as an argument in the
> for loop.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Kerry Thompson
>
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Helmut Granda]

>
>
> I've been a hiring manager for companies such as Sony and Disney, and the
> first thing I look at is experience, then a degree--any degree. Though a
> degree in a relevant field is nice, the fact that you have a degree shows
> that you're motivated, and can stick with something and see it through to
> the end.
>

I partially agree with this point. There are many factors and circumstances
that can push some one toward not acquiring a degree while building
a career. While this may not be all the time if you notice some older people
(by that I mean 60+) never had a formal education, yet their drive allowed
them to make a name for themselves.

Let me give you an illustration so that I can make my point clear in case my
words are not able to explain precisely what I am talking about. I know some
one that had it "made" one day his parents flew overseas for vacation and
during the trip they died. He had a choice, stay in school or take a job and
help his brothers to finish their school. He gave up school and all his
brothers and sisters graduated from college, yet he did not finish school.
Today he is the owner of his own company and you may never see him come over
to your desk to ask you for a job. But i still feel that not having a degree
shows that you are not motivated.

my 1 cent :)
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Kerry Thompson]

Chas Warn wrote:

> One guy may write a function in a few lines - another may take pages of
code
> to do the exact same thing. Who has the more logical brain? Who is the
> better programmer? 

I'm not sure that's a good criterion. I'm more interested in how well the
code performs, how well it is documented, and how easy it is to maintain.
Sometimes shorter code == more obscure code. Not always, of course--often
shorter code == a more elegant solution.

There used to be contests to see who could cram the most C code into one
line. I have serious doubts about the value of that contest. Code should be
readable, documented, and maintainable. 

Also, sometimes more code == faster code. Consider looping through an
array--if you use an extra line to store the count, a for loop should run
faster than if you use something like myArray.count as an argument in the
for loop.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[chas warn]

One guy may write a function in a few lines - another may take pages of code
to do the exact same thing. Who has the more logical brain? Who is the
better programmer? My degree and background is in business and accounting.
That fundamental knowledge is key to understanding a business system and to
writing an effective accounting program - you gotta know the subject first.
A lot of guys with cs degrees are so caught up in theory they can't see the
forest through the trees. But obviously - some are pretty darn good.

On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Anthony Pace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how difficult is
> it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?
>
> I need a a stable job ASAP; yet, I have two more years to go before I
> complete my degree in computer science; thus, I am wondering how difficult
> it would be to find a programming related job without a degree?  Do all I
> need is a portfolio, or does the piece of paper really make the difference
> at an entry level?
>
> I also have a background in fine art if that helps.
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony Pace
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Merrill, Jason]

Amen!

Jason Merrill 
Bank of America 
Enterprise Technology & Global Risk L&LD 
Instructional Technology & Media

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community 

Are you a Bank of America associate interested in innovative learning
ideas and technologies?
Check out our internal  Innovative Learning Blog & subscribe. 

 

>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
>>Of Kerry Thompson
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:02 PM
>>To: 'Flash Coders List'
>>Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have 
>>a degree related to computer science?
>>
>>Jason Merrill wrote:
>>
>>> Nothing can be[at] experience and self-motivated learning, but an
>>education
>>> can certainly help a career.
>>
>>Truer words were never spoken.
>>
>>I've been a hiring manager for companies such as Sony and 
>>Disney, and the first thing I look at is experience, then a 
>>degree--any degree. Though a degree in a relevant field is 
>>nice, the fact that you have a degree shows that you're 
>>motivated, and can stick with something and see it through to the end.
>>
>>If I'm hiring for a junior position, a degree in a relevant 
>>field is most helpful. But, if you have a music degree, and 
>>can show me that you have been programming since you were 14, 
>>I'll probe to see if you really understand computers and 
>>programming. If you do, a 3.5 GPA (out of 4) in music trumps a
>>2.5 GPA in computer science.
>>
>>If I'm hiring for the long term, I look more at a person's 
>>overall experience and success than at specific experience. 
>>If you're a good programmer, you can pick up a new language 
>>and OS, and in 6 months you will be better than a mediocre 
>>programmer who happens to have experience specific to the 
>>job. For a contractor or other short-term gig, I look more at 
>>specific experience.
>>
>>Cordially,
>>
>>Kerry Thompson
>>
>>___
>>Flashcoders mailing list
>>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Kerry Thompson]

Jason Merrill wrote:

> Nothing can be[at] experience and self-motivated learning, but an
education
> can certainly help a career.

Truer words were never spoken.

I've been a hiring manager for companies such as Sony and Disney, and the
first thing I look at is experience, then a degree--any degree. Though a
degree in a relevant field is nice, the fact that you have a degree shows
that you're motivated, and can stick with something and see it through to
the end.

If I'm hiring for a junior position, a degree in a relevant field is most
helpful. But, if you have a music degree, and can show me that you have been
programming since you were 14, I'll probe to see if you really understand
computers and programming. If you do, a 3.5 GPA (out of 4) in music trumps a
2.5 GPA in computer science.

If I'm hiring for the long term, I look more at a person's overall
experience and success than at specific experience. If you're a good
programmer, you can pick up a new language and OS, and in 6 months you will
be better than a mediocre programmer who happens to have experience specific
to the job. For a contractor or other short-term gig, I look more at
specific experience.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Merrill, Jason]

Nothing can be experience and self-motivated learning, but an education
can certainly help a career.

Jason Merrill 
Bank of America 
Enterprise Technology & Global Risk L&LD 
Instructional Technology & Media

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community 

Are you a Bank of America associate interested in innovative learning
ideas and technologies?
Check out our internal  Innovative Learning Blog & subscribe. 

 

>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
>>Of allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 12:13 PM
>>To: Flash Coders List
>>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have 
>>a degree related to computer science?
>>
>>i would say that there are lorry-sized holes in my knowledge 
>>that someone with a programming based degree would not have - 
>>a lot of higher level trig and physics for instance but i've 
>>been blessed with just the right contracts to learn while 
>>doing so it doesn't seem to have slowed me down
>>
>>On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 5:09 PM, allandt bik-elliott 
>>(thefieldcomic.com) < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> no degree but i'm freelance, self-taught and lucky so it's 
>>less of an 
>>> issue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Merrill, Jason < 
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a Master's in Instructional Technology, which was 
>>focused on 
>>>> multimedia design and development for training and learning, and 
>>>> while a lot of people in the multimedia field will say you 
>>don't need 
>>>> a degree to be sucessful, that may be true, but it 
>>certainly does and 
>>>> can help
>>>> with:  gaining BROAD fundamental knowledge that is hard to get on 
>>>> your own, opportunities to command a higher salary (if two resumes 
>>>> side by side are by all means equal and the same in 
>>experience, but 
>>>> one guy has a degree and the other doesn't - who do you think they 
>>>> are going to pick?), oppotunities to teach at higher institutions, 
>>>> you look more impressive on paper when you are bidding on 
>>contracts 
>>>> or whatever.  I also had a job during my college days developing 
>>>> multimedia, and that experience was invaluable.
>>>>
>>>> A lot of people in this field will say don't waste your 
>>time with a 
>>>> degree, and a lot of people find sucess without them, but 
>>to me, it's 
>>>> been worth every penny (and with my higher salary, I was 
>>able to pay 
>>>> of my student loans! :) .  I also have the opportunity to 
>>persue a PhD
>>>> someday, which I have considered.   Finally, I have the 
>>piece of mind
>>>> that when a potential employer compares my resume with another 
>>>> equally experienced person but without a degree, I have the upper 
>>>> hand.  Yes, the number one thing employers want is someone 
>>who can do 
>>>> the job, but the second thing they would want is someone 
>>who has hit 
>>>> the books to get the general knowledge that comes from a 
>>degree, and 
>>>> also looks good on paper.
>>>>
>>>> Jason Merrill
>>>> Bank of America
>>>> Enterprise Technology & Global Risk L&LD Instructional 
>>Technology & 
>>>> Media
>>>>
>>>> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community
>>>>
>>>> Are you a Bank of America associate interested in 
>>innovative learning 
>>>> ideas and technologies?
>>>> Check out our internal  Innovative Learning Blog & subscribe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>-Original Message-
>>>> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
>>Behalf Of Jon 
>>>> >>Bradley
>>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:02 AM
>>>> >>To: Flash Coders List
>>>> >>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a 
>>>> >>degree related to computer science?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>On Aug 19, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Anthony Pace wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how 
>>>&

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)]

i would say that there are lorry-sized holes in my knowledge that someone
with a programming based degree would not have - a lot of higher level trig
and physics for instance but i've been blessed with just the right contracts
to learn while doing so it doesn't seem to have slowed me down

On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 5:09 PM, allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com) <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> no degree but i'm freelance, self-taught and lucky so it's less of an issue
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Merrill, Jason <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I have a Master's in Instructional Technology, which was focused on
>> multimedia design and development for training and learning, and while a
>> lot of people in the multimedia field will say you don't need a degree
>> to be sucessful, that may be true, but it certainly does and can help
>> with:  gaining BROAD fundamental knowledge that is hard to get on your
>> own, opportunities to command a higher salary (if two resumes side by
>> side are by all means equal and the same in experience, but one guy has
>> a degree and the other doesn't - who do you think they are going to
>> pick?), oppotunities to teach at higher institutions, you look more
>> impressive on paper when you are bidding on contracts or whatever.  I
>> also had a job during my college days developing multimedia, and that
>> experience was invaluable.
>>
>> A lot of people in this field will say don't waste your time with a
>> degree, and a lot of people find sucess without them, but to me, it's
>> been worth every penny (and with my higher salary, I was able to pay of
>> my student loans! :) .  I also have the opportunity to persue a PhD
>> someday, which I have considered.   Finally, I have the piece of mind
>> that when a potential employer compares my resume with another equally
>> experienced person but without a degree, I have the upper hand.  Yes,
>> the number one thing employers want is someone who can do the job, but
>> the second thing they would want is someone who has hit the books to get
>> the general knowledge that comes from a degree, and also looks good on
>> paper.
>>
>> Jason Merrill
>> Bank of America
>> Enterprise Technology & Global Risk L&LD
>> Instructional Technology & Media
>>
>> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community
>>
>> Are you a Bank of America associate interested in innovative learning
>> ideas and technologies?
>> Check out our internal  Innovative Learning Blog & subscribe.
>>
>>
>>
>> >>-Original Message-
>> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
>> >>Of Jon Bradley
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:02 AM
>> >>To: Flash Coders List
>> >>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have
>> >>a degree related to computer science?
>> >>
>> >>On Aug 19, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Anthony Pace wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how
>> >>> difficult is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?
>> >>
>> >>I think comp sci is much more geared toward software and
>> >>computer engineering, as opposed to programming for rich media.
>> >>
>> >>Personally, I went to school for optical engineering and
>> >>physics. I dropped out senior year, second semester, to start
>> >>my own interactive/ web company. Ten years later and I'm now
>> >>a 3d vfx artist - certainly a difference from where I started.
>> >>
>> >>I definitely believe that my education has had a profound
>> >>effect in my career choice and overall skill level in my
>> >>niche. I do wish I completed my degree, at the very least for
>> >>the feel-good aspect.
>> >>
>> >>A degree in some field of new media study and course work
>> >>that has a fair amount of interactive (programming and design
>> >>included) may get you further than a comp sci degree.
>> >>
>> >>Actionscript development is not just programming. It requires
>> >>both sides of the brain to do well because much of what you
>> >>do when programming in Flash has a direct visual effect.
>> >>
>> >>just my 0.02.
>> >>
>> >>good luck!
>> >>
>> >>-jon
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>___
>> >>Flashcoders mailing list
>> >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>> >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>> >>
>> ___
>> Flashcoders mailing list
>> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>>
>
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[allandt bik-elliott (thefieldcomic.com)]

no degree but i'm freelance, self-taught and lucky so it's less of an issue



On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Merrill, Jason <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have a Master's in Instructional Technology, which was focused on
> multimedia design and development for training and learning, and while a
> lot of people in the multimedia field will say you don't need a degree
> to be sucessful, that may be true, but it certainly does and can help
> with:  gaining BROAD fundamental knowledge that is hard to get on your
> own, opportunities to command a higher salary (if two resumes side by
> side are by all means equal and the same in experience, but one guy has
> a degree and the other doesn't - who do you think they are going to
> pick?), oppotunities to teach at higher institutions, you look more
> impressive on paper when you are bidding on contracts or whatever.  I
> also had a job during my college days developing multimedia, and that
> experience was invaluable.
>
> A lot of people in this field will say don't waste your time with a
> degree, and a lot of people find sucess without them, but to me, it's
> been worth every penny (and with my higher salary, I was able to pay of
> my student loans! :) .  I also have the opportunity to persue a PhD
> someday, which I have considered.   Finally, I have the piece of mind
> that when a potential employer compares my resume with another equally
> experienced person but without a degree, I have the upper hand.  Yes,
> the number one thing employers want is someone who can do the job, but
> the second thing they would want is someone who has hit the books to get
> the general knowledge that comes from a degree, and also looks good on
> paper.
>
> Jason Merrill
> Bank of America
> Enterprise Technology & Global Risk L&LD
> Instructional Technology & Media
>
> Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community
>
> Are you a Bank of America associate interested in innovative learning
> ideas and technologies?
> Check out our internal  Innovative Learning Blog & subscribe.
>
>
>
> >>-Original Message-----
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> >>Of Jon Bradley
> >>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:02 AM
> >>To: Flash Coders List
> >>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have
> >>a degree related to computer science?
> >>
> >>On Aug 19, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Anthony Pace wrote:
> >>
> >>> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how
> >>> difficult is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?
> >>
> >>I think comp sci is much more geared toward software and
> >>computer engineering, as opposed to programming for rich media.
> >>
> >>Personally, I went to school for optical engineering and
> >>physics. I dropped out senior year, second semester, to start
> >>my own interactive/ web company. Ten years later and I'm now
> >>a 3d vfx artist - certainly a difference from where I started.
> >>
> >>I definitely believe that my education has had a profound
> >>effect in my career choice and overall skill level in my
> >>niche. I do wish I completed my degree, at the very least for
> >>the feel-good aspect.
> >>
> >>A degree in some field of new media study and course work
> >>that has a fair amount of interactive (programming and design
> >>included) may get you further than a comp sci degree.
> >>
> >>Actionscript development is not just programming. It requires
> >>both sides of the brain to do well because much of what you
> >>do when programming in Flash has a direct visual effect.
> >>
> >>just my 0.02.
> >>
> >>good luck!
> >>
> >>-jon
> >>
> >>
> >>___
> >>Flashcoders mailing list
> >>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> >>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
> >>
> ___
> Flashcoders mailing list
> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Merrill, Jason]

I have a Master's in Instructional Technology, which was focused on
multimedia design and development for training and learning, and while a
lot of people in the multimedia field will say you don't need a degree
to be sucessful, that may be true, but it certainly does and can help
with:  gaining BROAD fundamental knowledge that is hard to get on your
own, opportunities to command a higher salary (if two resumes side by
side are by all means equal and the same in experience, but one guy has
a degree and the other doesn't - who do you think they are going to
pick?), oppotunities to teach at higher institutions, you look more
impressive on paper when you are bidding on contracts or whatever.  I
also had a job during my college days developing multimedia, and that
experience was invaluable.

A lot of people in this field will say don't waste your time with a
degree, and a lot of people find sucess without them, but to me, it's
been worth every penny (and with my higher salary, I was able to pay of
my student loans! :) .  I also have the opportunity to persue a PhD
someday, which I have considered.   Finally, I have the piece of mind
that when a potential employer compares my resume with another equally
experienced person but without a degree, I have the upper hand.  Yes,
the number one thing employers want is someone who can do the job, but
the second thing they would want is someone who has hit the books to get
the general knowledge that comes from a degree, and also looks good on
paper.  

Jason Merrill 
Bank of America 
Enterprise Technology & Global Risk L&LD 
Instructional Technology & Media

Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community 

Are you a Bank of America associate interested in innovative learning
ideas and technologies?
Check out our internal  Innovative Learning Blog & subscribe. 

 

>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
>>Of Jon Bradley
>>Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:02 AM
>>To: Flash Coders List
>>Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have 
>>a degree related to computer science?
>>
>>On Aug 19, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Anthony Pace wrote:
>>
>>> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how 
>>> difficult is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?
>>
>>I think comp sci is much more geared toward software and 
>>computer engineering, as opposed to programming for rich media.
>>
>>Personally, I went to school for optical engineering and 
>>physics. I dropped out senior year, second semester, to start 
>>my own interactive/ web company. Ten years later and I'm now 
>>a 3d vfx artist - certainly a difference from where I started.
>>
>>I definitely believe that my education has had a profound 
>>effect in my career choice and overall skill level in my 
>>niche. I do wish I completed my degree, at the very least for 
>>the feel-good aspect.
>>
>>A degree in some field of new media study and course work 
>>that has a fair amount of interactive (programming and design 
>>included) may get you further than a comp sci degree.
>>
>>Actionscript development is not just programming. It requires 
>>both sides of the brain to do well because much of what you 
>>do when programming in Flash has a direct visual effect.
>>
>>just my 0.02.
>>
>>good luck!
>>
>>-jon
>>
>>
>>___
>>Flashcoders mailing list
>>Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
>>http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
>>
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Jon Bradley]

On Aug 19, 2008, at 5:25 PM, Anthony Pace wrote:

Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how  
difficult is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?


I think comp sci is much more geared toward software and computer  
engineering, as opposed to programming for rich media.


Personally, I went to school for optical engineering and physics. I  
dropped out senior year, second semester, to start my own interactive/ 
web company. Ten years later and I'm now a 3d vfx artist - certainly  
a difference from where I started.


I definitely believe that my education has had a profound effect in  
my career choice and overall skill level in my niche. I do wish I  
completed my degree, at the very least for the feel-good aspect.


A degree in some field of new media study and course work that has a  
fair amount of interactive (programming and design included) may get  
you further than a comp sci degree.


Actionscript development is not just programming. It requires both  
sides of the brain to do well because much of what you do when  
programming in Flash has a direct visual effect.


just my 0.02.

good luck!

-jon


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Glen Pike]

Hi,

   I have a degree in Electronics, Music & Media Technology, which had 
some programming, but mainly assembler & C related to electronic stuff.  
I did lots of maths & electronics too with some cool stuff like music, 
video, etc.  The year behind me started using Flash, but we never got to 
play, so I started playing myself during a year out.


   I would say that a degree is good because it teaches you discipline 
- if you want a good result, you have to work to get it and work hard, 
etc.  Even though my course was sometimes rubbish and the University 
pretty abysmal, I got a result and learnt a few things more life related 
along the way.  I think that is the thing that a lot of employers look 
for.  If you can show them these skills without the degree, then they 
may be inclined to hire you.  My year out was invaluable too - I got a 
years work experience which counted for an awful lot in the market I was 
aiming at.


   If you want to get into Flash/AS3 after your course, start working 
on stuff now, experiments, projects, etc.  If that's your "dream" and 
college will let you submit all AS3 related work, then push that, but I 
think it is also good to get grounding in other languages, or at least 
see what stuff is out there - I am more of an engineer, so I want to see 
how everything works rather than delving too deeply into one thing.  
When you have tried a few languages, picking up others is usually fairly 
easy unless it is Visual Basic or some Monadic language when you are 
used to 'C', etc.
  
   Having a background in fine art could help your visual side - 
explore everything, that's why I love Flash, because I can do all the 
stuff I wanted to do on my degree.  I am now doing part time work 
programming Flash interfaces and eyes for a robot, but I have to also 
know about a million other things to do with the robot, like Linux, 3D 
modelling, audio & video editing - pretty much my dream job (websites 
can suck at the end of the day when most clients are involved) :)


   So IMHO, stick the degree out until the end, get the result you 
want, but use it to learn Flash / AS3 by setting yourself projects to 
achieve that.  Also feed off the community element you get from your 
course mates - a group of you "geeking out" & competing is a great way 
to push yourself further.


   Glen

Anthony Pace wrote:
Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how 
difficult is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?


I need a a stable job ASAP; yet, I have two more years to go before I 
complete my degree in computer science; thus, I am wondering how 
difficult it would be to find a programming related job without a 
degree?  Do all I need is a portfolio, or does the piece of paper 
really make the difference at an entry level?


I also have a background in fine art if that helps.

Thanks,
Anthony Pace
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders




--

Glen Pike
01326 218440
www.glenpike.co.uk 

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[sebastian]

let me also add though that having a degree may open up other avenues 
unrelated to short-term work related ones including:


* higher salary [over decades this can amount to a big difference]
* opportunities to emigrate to other countries, most countries prefer 
immigrants with degrees over one's without
* opportunities at universities, institutions, research fascilities and 
government positions that would be impossible without a degree
* opportunities to later study another field at master's level [in 
computer science or in something totally different]
* sense of accomplishment, which sets a good pattern for completing 
other projects/goals in life instead of leaving ends untied


sebastian wrote:
depends where in the world you are, and what kind of work you are doing 
and for who.


if you can freelance and/or if you are talented and you also have a good 
portfolio... then in the USA, UK and NL you can find work without a 
degree in flash/flex/AS just fine. But try that in France and you won't 
ever get past the resume pile.


Anthony Pace wrote:
Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how 
difficult is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?


I need a a stable job ASAP; yet, I have two more years to go before I 
complete my degree in computer science; thus, I am wondering how 
difficult it would be to find a programming related job without a 
degree?  Do all I need is a portfolio, or does the piece of paper 
really make the difference at an entry level?


I also have a background in fine art if that helps.

Thanks,
Anthony Pace
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders




___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

Re: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[sebastian]

depends where in the world you are, and what kind of work you are doing 
and for who.


if you can freelance and/or if you are talented and you also have a good 
portfolio... then in the USA, UK and NL you can find work without a 
degree in flash/flex/AS just fine. But try that in France and you won't 
ever get past the resume pile.


Anthony Pace wrote:
Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how difficult 
is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?


I need a a stable job ASAP; yet, I have two more years to go before I 
complete my degree in computer science; thus, I am wondering how 
difficult it would be to find a programming related job without a 
degree?  Do all I need is a portfolio, or does the piece of paper really 
make the difference at an entry level?


I also have a background in fine art if that helps.

Thanks,
Anthony Pace
___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders


___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders

RE: [Flashcoders] how many coders here actually have a degree related to computer science?

[Kerry Thompson]

Anthony Pace wrote:

> Do you have a degree related to computer science? if not, how difficult
> is it getting jobs programming AS3 without one?

I have a Master's degree in music, and I have no problems getting AS3 jobs.

It's not quite that simple, though. When I first started out, I took about
20 hours of computer science classes--at the time, that included Fortran,
COBOL, RPG, and IBM 301 assembler, plus some trig and calculus.

Getting the first job is the trick. A lot of people recognize the link
between music and programming (there are a LOT of us), so that has been to
my advantage. But, my first programming job came when I was working as a
typist for a temp agency (yes, a typist, not a Word Processor). On one of my
assignments, they found that I knew how to program, and they asked me to do
a small program on their Apple II. They liked what I did, and hired me full
time.

Once you have some experience, and a portfolio, it's fairly easy to get
programming gigs. I've never had a problem since that first job, 25 years
ago. If you know AS3, you are going to be in demand anyway--there aren't
enough of us to fill the demand.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson

___
Flashcoders mailing list
Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders