Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Ron Wheeler]

A big +1 for the Head Start Design Patterns book.
A must read for anyone wanting to write clean functional code. Saves 
days of reinventing poorly crafted wheels.


Ron

Bob Wohl wrote:

This thread has been a good read. Over the years I've been tasked to write
multiple server languages and I've learned a great deal from that. PHP, ASP,
.NET, Java and now Grails. I haven't mastered any of them but I can
understand them, write them and do it correctly. I suppose my next language
after I master Grails should be C# since everyone says its pretty simple to
pick up.

I think the one language I've learned the most from is Java. The OOP lessons
I've learned have really accelerated my AS3 development and approach. I kind
of wish I would have read more Java related books when trying to learn AS3
as just going through the tutorials and reading design patterns (head start
book) have opened my eyes on so many concepts and methods for programming.
It really would have made learning OOP with AS3 so much easier.

The big thing I look for when choosing a language to learn/write is what
can it do for me.


On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote:

  

I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone
  

version


of Actionscript.
  

Really? AS3 is really just an environment-specific implementation of
the latest JS specifications, along with class libraries that make
sense in Flash Player. I don't think it really brings anything to the
table that I can't get in C# or Java in other environments.



Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3 as
  

a


primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an issue.
  

I think you've been spoiled by your CS background, where you learned
how to program before you learned how to solve domain-specific
problems.



I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn language
  

X


to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most definitely No.
  

I didn't interpret the original question the same way, but if I had,
I'd agree with you.



There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent languages
once the principle concepts are grasped with the first language. What is
  

a


mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same time and it
  

would


also be misleading to say that learning another language is a
  

prerequisite for


learning AS3.
  

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it can be useful to learn two
languages simultaneously, and see the separation between
language-specific syntax and algorithms, etc. But we can agree to
disagree on this.



You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address (I'm
sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread safe) and
  

we


both know that it will improve performance greatly in the player where
  

there


are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will also swell the posting on
flashcoders!
  

I mentioned concurrency as an example, but there are lots of other
examples I could have used instead.



Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for Flash
  

and


Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd rather see the
  

second


language being useful to allow people to complete their pipeline to the
server than be a language that may not suit that well. It's also
  

important


in these economic climes, that the effort put in suits the market demand
  

for


expertise. It's unfortunate in some ways that Adobe haven't pushed the
  

boat


a little further with a good server-side actionscript implementation to
  

make


that access to data even easier.
  

C# and Python are perfectly good languages for building web
applications, though. PHP, on the other hand, isn't good for building
anything but web applications. Plus, in my own opinion at least, C#
and Python have more internal consistency in their design than PHP
does - PHP is more a product of accretion than design, if you know
what I mean.

I'm not sure a server-side ActionScript implementation makes much
sense from a business perspective, with all the very capable, mature,
and commonly-used web application environments that already exist.



A lot of people want to learn Actionscript and I'd rather they didn't
  

think


that they had to learn another language to do so, or mistakenly attempt
  

to


take on two new languages as an entry to programming at the same time.
  

Well, that's all true if you want to learn ActionScript. But many
people presumably want to learn AS in order to build web applications,
which potentially involve all sorts of moving parts - AS, HTML and JS
on the client, some application server in the middle, SQL on the
database.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[John McCormack]

Thank you for that, it was very interesting.
It was certainly faster for those operations.

 opcodes which aren't available in AS3

It doesn't seem possible that those opcodes, for direct memory access, 
are not used by Adobe.

Why would that be?

John



Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

Joa Ebert's apparat can be found here:
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/As far as
Cannassa is concerned, he is best known for Haxe, which uses alchemy opcodes
here and
there(with his flash.memory implementation, but I'm no haxe expert), here is
the url:
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/virtual_memory_api

Offcourse it all still runs in the same Flash sandbox, I believe the
performance gains are basically due to
the fact that alchemy compiled code can do memory access faster by using
opcodes which arent
available in AS3 (don't ask me why). Anyway, I'm no expert, but a bit of it
is explained here:

http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:19 PM, John McCormack j...@easypeasy.co.ukwrote:

  

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas
Cannasse


  

Are their projects available to see?

 implementing some alchemy to speed things up.

  

As far as I understand it, the C++ code is still converted into Flash's
byte codes, so any performance gain must have been from the algorithms in
the C++ code.

How much difference did it make?

John



 On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:



  

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:





Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for
any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.





  

LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from my
assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than adequate
responsiveness with very little special care.

The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.

The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing
large
text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while keeping a
visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. It was
very much the rare exception.

I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated
clips
or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such applications
of
flash aren't the mainstream.

Paul

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Glen Pike]

sandbox?  Am guessing direct memory access maybe disallowed because 
people could try to exploit buffer overflows...


John McCormack wrote:

Thank you for that, it was very interesting.
It was certainly faster for those operations.

 opcodes which aren't available in AS3

It doesn't seem possible that those opcodes, for direct memory access, 
are not used by Adobe.

Why would that be?

John



Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

Joa Ebert's apparat can be found here:
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/As 
far as
Cannassa is concerned, he is best known for Haxe, which uses alchemy 
opcodes

here and
there(with his flash.memory implementation, but I'm no haxe expert), 
here is

the url:
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/virtual_memory_api

Offcourse it all still runs in the same Flash sandbox, I believe the
performance gains are basically due to
the fact that alchemy compiled code can do memory access faster by using
opcodes which arent
available in AS3 (don't ask me why). Anyway, I'm no expert, but a bit 
of it

is explained here:

http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:19 PM, John McCormack 
j...@easypeasy.co.ukwrote:


 

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

   

Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas
Cannasse


  

Are their projects available to see?

 implementing some alchemy to speed things up.
   
  

As far as I understand it, the C++ code is still converted into Flash's
byte codes, so any performance gain must have been from the 
algorithms in

the C++ code.

How much difference did it make?

John



 On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com 
wrote:
   


 

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



   
Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority 
list for

any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.





  
LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques 
from my
assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than 
adequate

responsiveness with very little special care.

The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the 
client
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding 
issue.


The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing
large
text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while 
keeping a
visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. 
It was

very much the rare exception.

I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated
clips
or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such 
applications

of
flash aren't the mainstream.

Paul

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--

Glen Pike
01326 218440
www.glenpike.co.uk http://www.glenpike.co.uk

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Henrik Andersson]

Glen Pike wrote:

sandbox?  Am guessing direct memory access maybe disallowed because
people could try to exploit buffer overflows...

You think that they honestly allows unbounded random memory access? They 
don't. It is restricted to the reservated memory area.

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[John McCormack]

It looks as if the memory is protected anyway, according to:
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy ...

As a reminder, the Alchemy pipeline is the following : .c file *-* 
LLVM intermediate bytecode *-* AVM2 bytecode
However, in general, doing so reduces a lot the performances. Especially 
since the abstraction level of the AVM2 bytecode is a lot higher than 
the one of the LLVM bytecode, it means that all arbitrary operations 
such as pointer and memory manipulation which are done in C must be 
/wrapped/ by using the memory-safe mechanisms which are available in 
AVM2, such as a |flash.utils.ByteArray| to represent the memory data.


If the AVM2 (Adobe ActionScript™ Virtual Machine 2) does allow 
unprotected access, then malicious code could get through via Alchemy or 
haXe.

I can't believe that to be true.
Anyway, why would Adobe build it in and not use it?
Strange.

John

Glen Pike wrote:
sandbox? Am guessing direct memory access maybe disallowed because 
people could try to exploit buffer overflows...


John McCormack wrote:

Thank you for that, it was very interesting.
It was certainly faster for those operations.

 opcodes which aren't available in AS3

It doesn't seem possible that those opcodes, for direct memory 
access, are not used by Adobe.

Why would that be?

John



Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

Joa Ebert's apparat can be found here:
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/As 
far as
Cannassa is concerned, he is best known for Haxe, which uses alchemy 
opcodes

here and
there(with his flash.memory implementation, but I'm no haxe expert), 
here is

the url:
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/virtual_memory_api

Offcourse it all still runs in the same Flash sandbox, I believe the
performance gains are basically due to
the fact that alchemy compiled code can do memory access faster by 
using

opcodes which arent
available in AS3 (don't ask me why). Anyway, I'm no expert, but a 
bit of it

is explained here:

http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:19 PM, John McCormack 
j...@easypeasy.co.ukwrote:




Meinte van't Kruis wrote:


Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas
Cannasse



Are their projects available to see?

implementing some alchemy to speed things up.
As far as I understand it, the C++ code is still converted into 
Flash's
byte codes, so any performance gain must have been from the 
algorithms in

the C++ code.

How much difference did it make?

John



On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com 
wrote:



Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority 
list for

any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.





LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques 
from my
assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than 
adequate

responsiveness with very little special care.

The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the 
client
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding 
issue.


The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been 
parsing

large
text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while 
keeping a
visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. 
It was

very much the rare exception.

I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of 
animated

clips
or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such 
applications

of
flash aren't the mainstream.

Paul

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Henrik Andersson]

John McCormack wrote:

It looks as if the memory is protected anyway, according to:
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy ...

As a reminder, the Alchemy pipeline is the following : .c file *-*
LLVM intermediate bytecode *-* AVM2 bytecode
However, in general, doing so reduces a lot the performances. Especially
since the abstraction level of the AVM2 bytecode is a lot higher than
the one of the LLVM bytecode, it means that all arbitrary operations
such as pointer and memory manipulation which are done in C must be
/wrapped/ by using the memory-safe mechanisms which are available in
AVM2, such as a |flash.utils.ByteArray| to represent the memory data.

If the AVM2 (Adobe ActionScript™ Virtual Machine 2) does allow
unprotected access, then malicious code could get through via Alchemy or
haXe.
I can't believe that to be true.
Anyway, why would Adobe build it in and not use it?
Strange.


This is what they allow:

function readByteAt(pos) {
if(pos0  pos  memSize) {
return globalmemptr[pos];
}
}

You can stop with the wild mass guessing now.
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[John McCormack]

So the performance gains will end up in AS3, sometime:

http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Alchemy:FAQ

Why can't the ActionScript compiler generate byte code that executes as 
quickly as Alchemy?


Compiling with LLVM tools (included as part of Alchemy) allows compile 
and link time optimizations to be applied that the ActionScript compiler 
does not use as yet. In addition, for operations involving ByteArrays 
there are opcodes that are optimized for performance, which the 
ActionScript compiler does not generate today.


The Alchemy team is working closely with the Flash Player and compiler 
teams, and Adobe expects that many if not all of the performance 
improvements from Alchemy will find their way into the shipping 
compilers and players.


John


Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

I was also thinking in the lines of alchemy, and the amazing stuff people
pull of using that.
Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas Cannasse
pulls off...

When reading about that, I think a bit of a c++ or even assembler knowledge
would've
helped a great deal, since I'm playing with alchemy a bit myself now as
well.

I realise that stuff isn't found in the average Flash project, allthough I
did work in a project
not too long ago where they are implementing some alchemy to speed things
up.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

  

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for
any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.



  

LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from my
assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than adequate
responsiveness with very little special care.

The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.

The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing large
text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while keeping a
visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. It was
very much the rare exception.

I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated clips
or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such applications of
flash aren't the mainstream.

Paul

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Meinte van't Kruis]

I was also thinking in the lines of alchemy, and the amazing stuff people
pull of using that.
Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas Cannasse
pulls off...

When reading about that, I think a bit of a c++ or even assembler knowledge
would've
helped a great deal, since I'm playing with alchemy a bit myself now as
well.

I realise that stuff isn't found in the average Flash project, allthough I
did work in a project
not too long ago where they are implementing some alchemy to speed things
up.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

 Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

 Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for
 any
 Flash developer.
 Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.



 LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from my
 assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than adequate
 responsiveness with very little special care.

 The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client
 happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.

 The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing large
 text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while keeping a
 visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. It was
 very much the rare exception.

 I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated clips
 or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such applications of
 flash aren't the mainstream.

 Paul

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-- 
Meinte van't Kruis

Freelance Flash Platform Dev (mxml,actionscript,flex,air)

malatze
http://www.malatze.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/meinte
mei...@malatze.com
0617459744
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Now there's something for flash to aspire to, yeah?
Becoming an assembly language and browser language in one.
Would help with the whole iphone thing wouldn't it? lol
Speed and performance wise i mean. Becoming a semi-native language.

if they do that and say AS4 becomes a assembly+ language,
couldn't you utilize that best with the air application and say a  
little flex?

Being that Air communicates with the destop and all.
Doesn't flex best with applications as well?

Just curious if that is possible or if I'm day dreaming..

Karl


On Jan 6, 2010, at 3:40 AM, Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

I was also thinking in the lines of alchemy, and the amazing stuff  
people

pull of using that.
Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas  
Cannasse

pulls off...

When reading about that, I think a bit of a c++ or even assembler  
knowledge

would've
helped a great deal, since I'm playing with alchemy a bit myself  
now as

well.

I realise that stuff isn't found in the average Flash project,  
allthough I

did work in a project
not too long ago where they are implementing some alchemy to speed  
things

up.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com  
wrote:



Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority  
list for

any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.



LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques  
from my
assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than  
adequate

responsiveness with very little special care.

The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the  
client
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding  
issue.


The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been  
parsing large
text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while  
keeping a
visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs.  
It was

very much the rare exception.

I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of  
animated clips
or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such  
applications of

flash aren't the mainstream.

Paul

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--
Meinte van't Kruis

Freelance Flash Platform Dev (mxml,actionscript,flex,air)

malatze
http://www.malatze.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/meinte
mei...@malatze.com
0617459744
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Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[John McCormack]

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas Cannasse
  

Are their projects available to see?

implementing some alchemy to speed things up.
  
As far as I understand it, the C++ code is still converted into Flash's 
byte codes, so any performance gain must have been from the algorithms 
in the C++ code.


How much difference did it make?

John



On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

  

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for
any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.



  

LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from my
assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than adequate
responsiveness with very little special care.

The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.

The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing large
text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while keeping a
visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. It was
very much the rare exception.

I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated clips
or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such applications of
flash aren't the mainstream.

Paul

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Meinte van't Kruis]

Joa Ebert's apparat can be found here:
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/
http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/As far as
Cannassa is concerned, he is best known for Haxe, which uses alchemy opcodes
here and
there(with his flash.memory implementation, but I'm no haxe expert), here is
the url:
http://ncannasse.fr/blog/virtual_memory_api

Offcourse it all still runs in the same Flash sandbox, I believe the
performance gains are basically due to
the fact that alchemy compiled code can do memory access faster by using
opcodes which arent
available in AS3 (don't ask me why). Anyway, I'm no expert, but a bit of it
is explained here:

http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:19 PM, John McCormack j...@easypeasy.co.ukwrote:

 Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

 Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas
 Cannasse


 Are their projects available to see?

  implementing some alchemy to speed things up.


 As far as I understand it, the C++ code is still converted into Flash's
 byte codes, so any performance gain must have been from the algorithms in
 the C++ code.

 How much difference did it make?

 John



  On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:



 Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



 Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for
 any
 Flash developer.
 Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.





 LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from my
 assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than adequate
 responsiveness with very little special care.

 The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client
 happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.

 The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing
 large
 text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while keeping a
 visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. It was
 very much the rare exception.

 I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated
 clips
 or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such applications
 of
 flash aren't the mainstream.

 Paul

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 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
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-- 
Meinte van't Kruis

Freelance Flash Platform Dev (mxml,actionscript,flex,air)

malatze
http://www.malatze.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/meinte
mei...@malatze.com
0617459744
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Meinte van't Kruis]

alchemy is only good if you don't need to pass information back and forth
from AS3 to C alot of times.
So for instance, you would want to keep processing as long as you can within
alchemy, before passing
it back to AS3. A good example is JPEG encoding (and decoding done by
ByteArray.org), where alot
of processing can be done by alchemy before passing the encoded data back to
flash, example:

http://segfaultlabs.com/blog/post/asynchronous-jpeg-encoding

here you can also compare the time it takes native code and alchemy.

but anyway.. getting a bit off-topic..

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Meinte van't Kruis mei...@gmail.com wrote:

 Joa Ebert's apparat can be found here:
 http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/
 http://blog.joa-ebert.com/2009/08/11/apparat-is-now-open-source/As far
 as Cannassa is concerned, he is best known for Haxe, which uses alchemy
 opcodes here and
 there(with his flash.memory implementation, but I'm no haxe expert), here
 is the url:
 http://ncannasse.fr/blog/virtual_memory_api

 Offcourse it all still runs in the same Flash sandbox, I believe the
 performance gains are basically due to
 the fact that alchemy compiled code can do memory access faster by using
 opcodes which arent
 available in AS3 (don't ask me why). Anyway, I'm no expert, but a bit of it
 is explained here:

 http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy

 On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:19 PM, John McCormack j...@easypeasy.co.ukwrote:

 Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

 Seeing the whole apparat project of Joa Ebert or the stuff Nicolas
 Cannasse


 Are their projects available to see?

  implementing some alchemy to speed things up.


 As far as I understand it, the C++ code is still converted into Flash's
 byte codes, so any performance gain must have been from the algorithms in
 the C++ code.

 How much difference did it make?

 John



  On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:



 Meinte van't Kruis wrote:



 Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for
 any
 Flash developer.
 Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.





 LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from
 my
 assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than adequate
 responsiveness with very little special care.

 The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client
 happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.

 The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing
 large
 text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while keeping
 a
 visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script time-outs. It was
 very much the rare exception.

 I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated
 clips
 or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such applications
 of
 flash aren't the mainstream.

 Paul

 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
 http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders










 ___
 Flashcoders mailing list
 Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
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 --
 Meinte van't Kruis

 Freelance Flash Platform Dev (mxml,actionscript,flex,air)

 malatze
 http://www.malatze.com/
 http://www.linkedin.com/in/meinte
 mei...@malatze.com
 0617459744




-- 
Meinte van't Kruis

Freelance Flash Platform Dev (mxml,actionscript,flex,air)

malatze
http://www.malatze.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/meinte
mei...@malatze.com
0617459744
___
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Paul Andrews]

Dave Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java and I
don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's outlook. I
think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.



AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.
  
I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone 
version of Actionscript.
  

Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm really
not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it supports just
about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's really
limiting at all.

Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.



Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.
  
Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3 as 
a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an issue.
  

I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good compliment to
AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.



Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
different parts of web applications.

But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
programming language, which isn't limited to building web
applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
great for other things.
  
I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn language 
X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most definitely No. 
There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent languages 
once the principle concepts are grasped with the first language. What is 
a mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same time and it 
would also be misleading to say that learning another language is a 
prerequisite for learning AS3.

As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
not an issue in that language.
  
I understand that view completely. I have a Computer Science degree and 
spent several years working on writing operating systems and low-level 
disk controllers. Many of the people I have worked with have grown up in 
a specific development environment and don't stray beyond it. They are 
sometimes rather surprised if I use a technique that is used in OS 
synchronisation.


You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address 
(I'm sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread safe) 
and we both know that it will improve performance greatly in the player 
where there are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will also swell 
the posting on flashcoders!


Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for Flash 
and Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd rather see the 
second language being useful to allow people to complete their pipeline 
to the server than be a language that may not suit that well. It's also 
important in these economic climes, that the effort put in suits the 
market demand for expertise. It's unfortunate in some ways that Adobe 
haven't pushed the boat a little further with a good server-side 
actionscript implementation to make that access to data even easier.


I used to develop in a proprietary environment with some similarities to 
Flash/Actionscript and used to write headless applications in it, 
replacing server-side scripting even though the language and environment 
was primarily designed to work with a GUI. The great thing was that 
other team members who had only learned to use that particular system 
could take on the subsequent development and maintenance of 

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Duly noted. I dont think I am so much worried that I should know C#  
in order to know or learn AS3, but more,
if I do take on C#, that I can incorporate my skills and be able to  
expand beyond the barriers so-to-speak
as a flash developer and programer. Also, because I am told that they  
are similar, will it may make it easier to learn

C# if I already know AS3?

Karl

On Jan 5, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:


Dave Watts wrote:
Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was  
THE
language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to  
Java and I
don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's  
outlook. I

think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.



AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build  
all

sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.

I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone  
version of Actionscript.


Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language,  
I'm really
not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it  
supports just
about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think  
it's really

limiting at all.

Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.



Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.

Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn  
AS3 as a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't  
such an issue.


I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good  
compliment to

AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.



Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
different parts of web applications.

But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
programming language, which isn't limited to building web
applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task,  
but
rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn  
new

languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to  
program

aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem,  
not so

great for other things.

I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn  
language X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most  
definitely No. There's no harm (and much to be gained) in  
learning subsequent languages once the principle concepts are  
grasped with the first language. What is a mistake is to try and  
learn two new languages at the same time and it would also be  
misleading to say that learning another language is a prerequisite  
for learning AS3.

As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
not an issue in that language.

I understand that view completely. I have a Computer Science degree  
and spent several years working on writing operating systems and  
low-level disk controllers. Many of the people I have worked with  
have grown up in a specific development environment and don't stray  
beyond it. They are sometimes rather surprised if I use a technique  
that is used in OS synchronisation.


You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to  
address (I'm sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure  
thread safe) and we both know that it will improve performance  
greatly in the player where there are multiple cores available. I'm  
sure it will also swell the posting on flashcoders!


Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for  
Flash and Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd  
rather see the second language being useful to allow people to  
complete their pipeline to the server than be a language that may  
not suit that well. It's also important in these economic climes,  
that the effort put in suits the market demand for expertise. It's  
unfortunate in some ways that Adobe haven't pushed the boat a  
little further with a good server-side actionscript implementation  

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Paul Andrews]

Karl DeSaulniers wrote:
Duly noted. I dont think I am so much worried that I should know C# in 
order to know or learn AS3, but more,
if I do take on C#, that I can incorporate my skills and be able to 
expand beyond the barriers so-to-speak
as a flash developer and programer. Also, because I am told that they 
are similar, will it may make it easier to learn

C# if I already know AS3?
Certainly. The first language is always the hardest, then most concepts 
will travel between languages even if there are differences in the way 
they are implemented.


Paul


Karl

On Jan 5, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:


Dave Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java 
and I
don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's 
outlook. I

think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.



AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.

I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone 
version of Actionscript.


Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, 
I'm really
not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it 
supports just
about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think 
it's really

limiting at all.

Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.



Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.

Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3 
as a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an 
issue.


I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good 
compliment to

AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.



Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
different parts of web applications.

But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
programming language, which isn't limited to building web
applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
great for other things.

I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn 
language X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most 
definitely No. There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning 
subsequent languages once the principle concepts are grasped with the 
first language. What is a mistake is to try and learn two new 
languages at the same time and it would also be misleading to say 
that learning another language is a prerequisite for learning AS3.

As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
not an issue in that language.

I understand that view completely. I have a Computer Science degree 
and spent several years working on writing operating systems and 
low-level disk controllers. Many of the people I have worked with 
have grown up in a specific development environment and don't stray 
beyond it. They are sometimes rather surprised if I use a technique 
that is used in OS synchronisation.


You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address 
(I'm sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread 
safe) and we both know that it will improve performance greatly in 
the player where there are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will 
also swell the posting on flashcoders!


Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for 
Flash and Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd rather 
see the second language being useful to allow people to complete 
their pipeline to the server than be a language that may not suit 
that well. It's also important in these economic climes, that the 
effort put in suits the market demand for 

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Meinte van't Kruis]

I'd say, learn a lower-level language. I've worked with some guys with an
assembly and c++ background, and they really knew how to squeeze the last
drops of performance out of a flash app.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

 Karl DeSaulniers wrote:

 Duly noted. I dont think I am so much worried that I should know C# in
 order to know or learn AS3, but more,
 if I do take on C#, that I can incorporate my skills and be able to expand
 beyond the barriers so-to-speak
 as a flash developer and programer. Also, because I am told that they are
 similar, will it may make it easier to learn
 C# if I already know AS3?

 Certainly. The first language is always the hardest, then most concepts
 will travel between languages even if there are differences in the way they
 are implemented.

 Paul


 Karl

 On Jan 5, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:

  Dave Watts wrote:

 Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
 language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java and
 I
 don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's outlook.
 I
 think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.


 AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
 Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
 sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
 build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
 examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
 You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.

  I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone
 version of Actionscript.


  Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm
 really
 not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it supports
 just
 about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's
 really
 limiting at all.

 Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
 implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.


 Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
 want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

 Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
 in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.

  Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3
 as a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an issue.


  I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good compliment
 to
 AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.


 Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
 different parts of web applications.

 But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
 programming language, which isn't limited to building web
 applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
 programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
 rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
 languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
 knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
 aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
 like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
 is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
 great for other things.

  I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn
 language X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most definitely
 No. There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent
 languages once the principle concepts are grasped with the first language.
 What is a mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same time and
 it would also be misleading to say that learning another language is a
 prerequisite for learning AS3.

 As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
 People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
 develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
 things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
 not an issue in that language.

  I understand that view completely. I have a Computer Science degree and
 spent several years working on writing operating systems and low-level disk
 controllers. Many of the people I have worked with have grown up in a
 specific development environment and don't stray beyond it. They are
 sometimes rather surprised if I use a technique that is used in OS
 synchronisation.

 You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address (I'm
 sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread safe) and we
 both know that it will improve performance greatly in the player where there
 are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will also swell the posting on
 flashcoders!

 Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for 

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[John McCormack]

Taka Kojima wrote:

it's not necessarily the language that makes a developer, it's the conceptual
understanding of everything else, design patterns, syntax, best practices,
  

I would agree with that.

What 2nd language to choose depends upon what you aim to do...

I program in C++ for my own desktop applications because of it's raw power.
Then I learnt AS3 because of some work that came along. The C++ gave me 
a head start with AS3.
After using AS3 I was able to go back and apply those ideas, especially 
event listeners, to my C++. That really helped my C++.

So the concepts travel, as long as the languages are similar.

My own journey was Electronics to Machine Code to Assembler to C to C++ 
to AS3.


AS3 is great for producing graphics quickly.
C++ is brilliant for power and Visual Studio is an amazing IDE, but it 
takes (me) forever to get anywhere - though what I produce is very FAST.

C# would be useful for Silverlight.
Ruby on Rails gets good reports, but I don't know anything about it.
JavaScript seems to be on the up.

So what to choose comes down to what you are aiming to do with it. 
Choosing a language with similar syntax makes a lot of sense.


Most of the software and operating systems we use were probably written 
with C++.
C++ is at the centre as far as I am concerned, even though Microsoft 
treat it as second class compared to C#.
However I really like AS3, especially because of what Papervision3D 
brings to the language.


John




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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Paul Andrews]

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

I'd say, learn a lower-level language. I've worked with some guys with an
assembly and c++ background, and they really knew how to squeeze the last
drops of performance out of a flash app.
  
That's far less of a concern for most Flash applications and faster 
processors and increased performance by the player help. Performance 
always will be a concern for some situations but I would never advise 
anyone to learn assembly language or C++ with that in mind for AS3. 
Better to learn from AS3 Gurus.


The people (like me) that have passed through the assembly and C++ route 
have done so not as a way to become better AS3 developers but because 
our situations required that we program assembler and C++. Those skills 
help us with AS3 but aren't an efficient route to take. Don't go there.


Paul

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

  

Karl DeSaulniers wrote:



Duly noted. I dont think I am so much worried that I should know C# in
order to know or learn AS3, but more,
if I do take on C#, that I can incorporate my skills and be able to expand
beyond the barriers so-to-speak
as a flash developer and programer. Also, because I am told that they are
similar, will it may make it easier to learn
C# if I already know AS3?

  

Certainly. The first language is always the hardest, then most concepts
will travel between languages even if there are differences in the way they
are implemented.

Paul




Karl

On Jan 5, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:

 Dave Watts wrote:
  

Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
  

language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java and
I
don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's outlook.
I
think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.




AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.

 I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone
  

version of Actionscript.



 Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm
  

really
not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it supports
just
about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's
really
limiting at all.

Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.




Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.

 Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3
  

as a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an issue.



 I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good compliment
  

to
AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.




Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
different parts of web applications.

But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
programming language, which isn't limited to building web
applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
great for other things.

 I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn
  

language X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most definitely
No. There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent
languages once the principle concepts are grasped with the first language.
What is a mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same time and
it would also be misleading to say that learning another language is a
prerequisite for learning AS3.



As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
not an issue in that language.

 I understand that 

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Glen Pike]

The people (like me) that have passed through the assembly and C++ 
route have done so not as a way to become better AS3 developers but 
because our situations required that we program assembler and C++. 
Those skills help us with AS3 but aren't an efficient route to take. 
Don't go there.


Like how many people do machine code in college vs how many people 
actually use it outside the classroom...  Machine code is not 
efficient.  C for me was possibly the most useful thing to learn because 
it's the basis for a lot of things and a happy medium between assembler 
- yuck and still having control  C++ was/is a bugger to learn 
because it was the first OOP language I had used.   The other problem 
was that trying to do stuff in Windows with C++ was a nightmare - so 
many API's to confuse the lone learner. 

With C / C++ you also don't have the safety of the garbage collector, 
virtual machine etc. to forgive your mistakes.  You do something wrong 
in C / C++ you could end up with a BSOD, or a broken CD Writer (ahem).


I got into Flash  ActionScript because it was the fastest and easiest 
way of getting something to show on the screen - I had tried with C, 
C++, Java and got varying degrees of results, but found that the 
knowledge gaps in Flash were very small - it was easy to get something 
you were proud of / satisfied with quickly.  Even with coding in the 
IDE...  AS3 might have shifted the ball game a bit, but it's probably 
still the easiest dev environment I have come across for visual 
applications.


I hated Visual Studio - especially trying to work out how to draw to the 
screen from an MFC based app (oops) - it took about 2 years of messing 
round and going through various books to finally get something half 
arsed going, then I encountered the pain of DirectX which was glossed 
over in the book. 
Compare that with Flash and Papervision, how quickly can you get stuff 
running, although we do have stuff like Open Frameworks, etc. now, it 
might be worth trying some C / C++ stuff again when the AS3 can't handle 
the performance requirements...


My reason for asking about C++ and AS3 together was because I wanted to 
see how many people in the marketplace might have those skills - I 
thought the response would be less, so that's promising.


Glen
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Ron Wheeler]

Dave Watts wrote:

So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash programers to
learn C#?
Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
I was wondering what the benefits would be.



AS3 and C# are very similar, yes.

I think it's advantageous for aspiring programmers to learn more than
one language, especially if one of the languages they're learning is
domain-specific, like AS3. I think C# would be a fine choice for an
alternate language to learn, although it might actually be better to
choose something that isn't so similar, like Python.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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You could also look at haXe which can produce output that juns on a 
number of Virtual machines including the FlashPlayer.

It can also use Flash objects.
It is strongly typed to encourage good programming practices.
www.haxe.org.
It has a strong user community that can be very helpful to people 
starting out.


Ron


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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Interesting. I have heard of haXe but never investigated.
Thanks,

Karl


On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:59 PM, Ron Wheeler wrote:


Dave Watts wrote:
So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash  
programers to

learn C#?
Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
I was wondering what the benefits would be.



AS3 and C# are very similar, yes.

I think it's advantageous for aspiring programmers to learn more than
one language, especially if one of the languages they're learning is
domain-specific, like AS3. I think C# would be a fine choice for an
alternate language to learn, although it might actually be better to
choose something that isn't so similar, like Python.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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You could also look at haXe which can produce output that juns on a  
number of Virtual machines including the FlashPlayer.

It can also use Flash objects.
It is strongly typed to encourage good programming practices.
www.haxe.org.
It has a strong user community that can be very helpful to people  
starting out.


Ron


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Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[John McCormack]

Glen Pike wrote:
  You do something wrong in C / C++ you could end up with a BSOD, or a 
broken CD Writer (ahem).

Sorry, the (ahem) made me laugh!
I got into Flash  ActionScript because it was the fastest and easiest 
way of getting something to show on the screen

Yep.

I hated Visual Studio
I think it's great - you can set breakpoints to capture almost any 
problem. You can see the memory and study bits and bytes.

But it took a while to get used to it. It provides easier ways into it now.
- especially trying to work out how to draw to the screen from an MFC 
based app
Agreed. I avoided MFC completely - it was convoluted, obfuscated, 
gobbledegook.


(oops) - it took about 2 years of messing round and going through 
various books to finally get something half arsed going, then I 
encountered the pain of DirectX which was glossed over in the book.

Same here.

it might be worth trying some C / C++ stuff again when the AS3 can't 
handle the performance requirements...

I hope so.
I have used a little bit of assembler to treble the speed on some bits.
My reason for asking about C++ and AS3 together was because I wanted 
to see how many people in the marketplace might have those skills - I 
thought the response would be less, so that's promising.

Promising for what reason?

John

Glen
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Ron Wheeler]

Paul Andrews wrote:

Dave Watts wrote:

Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java 
and I
don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's 
outlook. I

think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.



AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.
  
I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone 
version of Actionscript.
You can use MTASC http://www.mtasc.org/ if you want to write and compile 
Actionscript outside of the Adobe IDE.
If you move to haXe, you can code using several different IDEs(Eclipse 
is my choice) and run on a wide choice of VMs (FlashPlayer, JavaScript, 
PHP,  C++ and more).



 
Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, 
I'm really
not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it 
supports just
about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's 
really

limiting at all.

Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.



Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.
  
Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3 
as a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an 
issue.
 
I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good 
compliment to

AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.



Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
different parts of web applications.

But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
programming language, which isn't limited to building web
applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
great for other things.
  
I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn 
language X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most 
definitely No. There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning 
subsequent languages once the principle concepts are grasped with the 
first language. What is a mistake is to try and learn two new 
languages at the same time and it would also be misleading to say that 
learning another language is a prerequisite for learning AS3.

As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
not an issue in that language.
  
I understand that view completely. I have a Computer Science degree 
and spent several years working on writing operating systems and 
low-level disk controllers. Many of the people I have worked with have 
grown up in a specific development environment and don't stray beyond 
it. They are sometimes rather surprised if I use a technique that is 
used in OS synchronisation.


You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address 
(I'm sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread 
safe) and we both know that it will improve performance greatly in the 
player where there are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will also 
swell the posting on flashcoders!


Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for Flash 
and Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd rather see 
the second language being useful to allow people to complete their 
pipeline to the server than be a language that may not suit that well. 
It's also important in these economic climes, that the effort put in 
suits the market demand for expertise. It's unfortunate in some ways 
that Adobe haven't pushed the boat a little further with a good 
server-side actionscript implementation to make that access to data 
even easier.


I used to develop in a proprietary environment with some similarities 
to Flash/Actionscript and used to 

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Meinte van't Kruis]

Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

 Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

 I'd say, learn a lower-level language. I've worked with some guys with an
 assembly and c++ background, and they really knew how to squeeze the last
 drops of performance out of a flash app.


 That's far less of a concern for most Flash applications and faster
 processors and increased performance by the player help. Performance always
 will be a concern for some situations but I would never advise anyone to
 learn assembly language or C++ with that in mind for AS3. Better to learn
 from AS3 Gurus.

 The people (like me) that have passed through the assembly and C++ route
 have done so not as a way to become better AS3 developers but because our
 situations required that we program assembler and C++. Those skills help us
 with AS3 but aren't an efficient route to take. Don't go there.

 Paul

  On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:



 Karl DeSaulniers wrote:



 Duly noted. I dont think I am so much worried that I should know C# in
 order to know or learn AS3, but more,
 if I do take on C#, that I can incorporate my skills and be able to
 expand
 beyond the barriers so-to-speak
 as a flash developer and programer. Also, because I am told that they
 are
 similar, will it may make it easier to learn
 C# if I already know AS3?



 Certainly. The first language is always the hardest, then most concepts
 will travel between languages even if there are differences in the way
 they
 are implemented.

 Paul




 Karl

 On Jan 5, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Paul Andrews wrote:

  Dave Watts wrote:


 Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE


 language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java
 and
 I
 don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's
 outlook.
 I
 think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.




 AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
 Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
 sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
 build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
 examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
 You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.

  I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone


 version of Actionscript.



  Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm


 really
 not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it supports
 just
 about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's
 really
 limiting at all.

 Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
 implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.




 Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
 want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

 Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
 in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.

  Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3


 as a primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an
 issue.



  I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good
 compliment


 to
 AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.




 Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
 different parts of web applications.

 But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
 programming language, which isn't limited to building web
 applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
 programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
 rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
 languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
 knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
 aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
 like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
 is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
 great for other things.

  I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn


 language X to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most
 definitely
 No. There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent
 languages once the principle concepts are grasped with the first
 language.
 What is a mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same
 time and
 it would also be misleading to say that learning another language is a
 prerequisite for learning AS3.



 As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
 People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
 develop a tunnel 

Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Paul Andrews]

Meinte van't Kruis wrote:

Actually, I think performance should be on top of the priority list for any
Flash developer.
Unresponsive flash apps are the number one irritation imho.

  
LOL, I have yet to write one and I have yet to use any techniques from 
my assembler or C++ days. In most cases Flash provides more than 
adequate responsiveness with very little special care.


The top of the priority list is a user experience that makes the client 
happy and performance and responsiveness has yet to be a deciding issue.


The most challenging responsiveness issue I have had has been parsing 
large text files for data (several megabytes in size) using AS2 while 
keeping a visualisation animating smoothly and preventing script 
time-outs. It was very much the rare exception.


I realise that for some people manipulating large numbers of animated 
clips or sprites, performance could be an issue, but I think such 
applications of flash aren't the mainstream.


Paul
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone version
 of Actionscript.

Really? AS3 is really just an environment-specific implementation of
the latest JS specifications, along with class libraries that make
sense in Flash Player. I don't think it really brings anything to the
table that I can't get in C# or Java in other environments.

 Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3 as a
 primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an issue.

I think you've been spoiled by your CS background, where you learned
how to program before you learned how to solve domain-specific
problems.

 I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn language X
 to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most definitely No.

I didn't interpret the original question the same way, but if I had,
I'd agree with you.

 There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent languages
 once the principle concepts are grasped with the first language. What is a
 mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same time and it would
 also be misleading to say that learning another language is a prerequisite for
 learning AS3.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it can be useful to learn two
languages simultaneously, and see the separation between
language-specific syntax and algorithms, etc. But we can agree to
disagree on this.

 You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address (I'm
 sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread safe) and we
 both know that it will improve performance greatly in the player where there
 are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will also swell the posting on
 flashcoders!

I mentioned concurrency as an example, but there are lots of other
examples I could have used instead.

 Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for Flash and
 Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd rather see the second
 language being useful to allow people to complete their pipeline to the
 server than be a language that may not suit that well. It's also important
 in these economic climes, that the effort put in suits the market demand for
 expertise. It's unfortunate in some ways that Adobe haven't pushed the boat
 a little further with a good server-side actionscript implementation to make
 that access to data even easier.

C# and Python are perfectly good languages for building web
applications, though. PHP, on the other hand, isn't good for building
anything but web applications. Plus, in my own opinion at least, C#
and Python have more internal consistency in their design than PHP
does - PHP is more a product of accretion than design, if you know
what I mean.

I'm not sure a server-side ActionScript implementation makes much
sense from a business perspective, with all the very capable, mature,
and commonly-used web application environments that already exist.

 A lot of people want to learn Actionscript and I'd rather they didn't think
 that they had to learn another language to do so, or mistakenly attempt to
 take on two new languages as an entry to programming at the same time.

Well, that's all true if you want to learn ActionScript. But many
people presumably want to learn AS in order to build web applications,
which potentially involve all sorts of moving parts - AS, HTML and JS
on the client, some application server in the middle, SQL on the
database.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 Also, because I am told that they are similar, will it may make it easier to 
 learn
 C# if I already know AS3?

I found it easier to learn AS3, knowing some C# and Java - all three
are quite similar, although I think C# is a little more like AS3 than
Java is.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Bob Wohl]

This thread has been a good read. Over the years I've been tasked to write
multiple server languages and I've learned a great deal from that. PHP, ASP,
.NET, Java and now Grails. I haven't mastered any of them but I can
understand them, write them and do it correctly. I suppose my next language
after I master Grails should be C# since everyone says its pretty simple to
pick up.

I think the one language I've learned the most from is Java. The OOP lessons
I've learned have really accelerated my AS3 development and approach. I kind
of wish I would have read more Java related books when trying to learn AS3
as just going through the tutorials and reading design patterns (head start
book) have opened my eyes on so many concepts and methods for programming.
It really would have made learning OOP with AS3 so much easier.

The big thing I look for when choosing a language to learn/write is what
can it do for me.


On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:32 AM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote:

  I think Adobe is rather missing a trick in not having a stand-alone
 version
  of Actionscript.

 Really? AS3 is really just an environment-specific implementation of
 the latest JS specifications, along with class libraries that make
 sense in Flash Player. I don't think it really brings anything to the
 table that I can't get in C# or Java in other environments.

  Yes, you're right, but in the context of someone wanting to learn AS3 as
 a
  primary goal not general programming, such things aren't such an issue.

 I think you've been spoiled by your CS background, where you learned
 how to program before you learned how to solve domain-specific
 problems.

  I have interpreted the original question as Do I need to learn language
 X
  to become an AS3 programmer and the answer is most definitely No.

 I didn't interpret the original question the same way, but if I had,
 I'd agree with you.

  There's no harm (and much to be gained) in learning subsequent languages
  once the principle concepts are grasped with the first language. What is
 a
  mistake is to try and learn two new languages at the same time and it
 would
  also be misleading to say that learning another language is a
 prerequisite for
  learning AS3.

 I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it can be useful to learn two
 languages simultaneously, and see the separation between
 language-specific syntax and algorithms, etc. But we can agree to
 disagree on this.

  You mention concurrency and that is something Adobe needs to address (I'm
  sure it won't be easy to make the Flash infrastructure thread safe) and
 we
  both know that it will improve performance greatly in the player where
 there
  are multiple cores available. I'm sure it will also swell the posting on
  flashcoders!

 I mentioned concurrency as an example, but there are lots of other
 examples I could have used instead.

  Currently it's necessary for developers to know Actionscript for Flash
 and
  Flex plus something else for server interaction. I'd rather see the
 second
  language being useful to allow people to complete their pipeline to the
  server than be a language that may not suit that well. It's also
 important
  in these economic climes, that the effort put in suits the market demand
 for
  expertise. It's unfortunate in some ways that Adobe haven't pushed the
 boat
  a little further with a good server-side actionscript implementation to
 make
  that access to data even easier.

 C# and Python are perfectly good languages for building web
 applications, though. PHP, on the other hand, isn't good for building
 anything but web applications. Plus, in my own opinion at least, C#
 and Python have more internal consistency in their design than PHP
 does - PHP is more a product of accretion than design, if you know
 what I mean.

 I'm not sure a server-side ActionScript implementation makes much
 sense from a business perspective, with all the very capable, mature,
 and commonly-used web application environments that already exist.

  A lot of people want to learn Actionscript and I'd rather they didn't
 think
  that they had to learn another language to do so, or mistakenly attempt
 to
  take on two new languages as an entry to programming at the same time.

 Well, that's all true if you want to learn ActionScript. But many
 people presumably want to learn AS in order to build web applications,
 which potentially involve all sorts of moving parts - AS, HTML and JS
 on the client, some application server in the middle, SQL on the
 database.

 Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
 http://www.figleaf.com/

 Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
 instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
 Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
 Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Kerry Thompson]

Glen Pike wrote:

  Slightly OT, but how many guys here can do AS3  C++?

 The other interesting thing would be to find out if you did AS3 or C++
 first.  I am betting the older guys learnt C++ first, but again, I might be
 wrong.


I'm one of those older guys who learned C++ first. Well, actually, I
learned C first--no, Pascal came before C--but then there were the years
with Fortran, 6502 Assembler, and COBOL. Oh, yeah--there were several years
of Lingo in there someplace.

Lots of languages to cram into a short career (30 years). And my favorite?
AS3, hands down.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Karl DeSaulniers]

So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash  
programers to learn C#?

Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
I was wondering what the benefits would be.

Karl


On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:20 PM, Kerry Thompson wrote:


Glen Pike wrote:

  Slightly OT, but how many guys here can do AS3  C++?


The other interesting thing would be to find out if you did  
AS3 or C++
first.  I am betting the older guys learnt C++ first, but again, I  
might be

wrong.



I'm one of those older guys who learned C++ first. Well, actually, I
learned C first--no, Pascal came before C--but then there were the  
years
with Fortran, 6502 Assembler, and COBOL. Oh, yeah--there were  
several years

of Lingo in there someplace.

Lots of languages to cram into a short career (30 years). And my  
favorite?

AS3, hands down.

Cordially,

Kerry Thompson
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash programers to
 learn C#?
 Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
 I was wondering what the benefits would be.

AS3 and C# are very similar, yes.

I think it's advantageous for aspiring programmers to learn more than
one language, especially if one of the languages they're learning is
domain-specific, like AS3. I think C# would be a fine choice for an
alternate language to learn, although it might actually be better to
choose something that isn't so similar, like Python.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[percepticon]

I tend to agree..in fact I would learn Ruby/Ruby on Rails because imho ror + 
flex = the future of ria
Sent via BlackBerry by ATT

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 18:08:17 
To: Flash Coders Listflashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com
Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

 So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash programers to
 learn C#?
 Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
 I was wondering what the benefits would be.

AS3 and C# are very similar, yes.

I think it's advantageous for aspiring programmers to learn more than
one language, especially if one of the languages they're learning is
domain-specific, like AS3. I think C# would be a fine choice for an
alternate language to learn, although it might actually be better to
choose something that isn't so similar, like Python.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Taka Kojima]

Anybody I know that I consider good at programming in a certain language, is
proficient in at least 2 other languages as well... kinda goes without
saying, but most programmers do know more than one language. After all, it's
not necessarily the language that makes a developer, it's the conceptual
understanding of everything else, design patterns, syntax, best practices,
etc.

In my experience, anybody that only knows ActionScript, is not that great at
it and I would not consider them developers.

- Taka

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Dave Watts dwa...@figleaf.com wrote:

  So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash programers
 to
  learn C#?
  Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
  I was wondering what the benefits would be.

 AS3 and C# are very similar, yes.

 I think it's advantageous for aspiring programmers to learn more than
 one language, especially if one of the languages they're learning is
 domain-specific, like AS3. I think C# would be a fine choice for an
 alternate language to learn, although it might actually be better to
 choose something that isn't so similar, like Python.

 Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
 http://www.figleaf.com/

 Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
 instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
 Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
 Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Paul Andrews]

Dave Watts wrote:

So would you say it would be advantageous for aspiring Flash programers to
learn C#?
Or leave it alone, not needed? I hear they are very similar as well.
I was wondering what the benefits would be.

I would get comfortable with AS3 and programming in general before 
attempting to tackle a second language.


It's always useful to learn other languages, but choose something 
complimentary such a server-side scripting language - PHP, C# whatever.


I have coded in C++ many years ago and am more than happy to leave it 
behind.


Paul

AS3 and C# are very similar, yes.

I think it's advantageous for aspiring programmers to learn more than
one language, especially if one of the languages they're learning is
domain-specific, like AS3. I think C# would be a fine choice for an
alternate language to learn, although it might actually be better to
choose something that isn't so similar, like Python.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 I would get comfortable with AS3 and programming in general before
 attempting to tackle a second language.

I don't really agree with this. Learning a domain-specific language
like AS3 teaches a fairly narrow view of programming and how it works.

 It's always useful to learn other languages, but choose something
 complimentary such a server-side scripting language - PHP, C# whatever.

A general-purpose programming language (C#, Python) complements
anything. My problem with recommending PHP is that it's another
domain-specific language.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Karl DeSaulniers]

When you say domain specific, do you mean the difference between  
viewing on the web vs. viewing in an application?
I know C# is an application language. You can not use PHP in  
constructing an application? Is this what you mean by domain specific?


Karl


On Jan 4, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Dave Watts wrote:


I would get comfortable with AS3 and programming in general before
attempting to tackle a second language.


I don't really agree with this. Learning a domain-specific language
like AS3 teaches a fairly narrow view of programming and how it works.


It's always useful to learn other languages, but choose something
complimentary such a server-side scripting language - PHP, C#  
whatever.


A general-purpose programming language (C#, Python) complements
anything. My problem with recommending PHP is that it's another
domain-specific language.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 When you say domain specific, do you mean the difference between viewing on
 the web vs. viewing in an application?
 I know C# is an application language. You can not use PHP in constructing an
 application? Is this what you mean by domain specific?

I mean that a domain-specific programming language solves problems in
a single problem domain. You can't use AS3 to build console
applications, for example. You can't do anything with it except
building Flash applications. C#, on the other hand, can be used to
build desktop applications, console applications, web applications,
etc.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location.
Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information!
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Paul Andrews]

Dave Watts wrote:

I would get comfortable with AS3 and programming in general before
attempting to tackle a second language.



I don't really agree with this. Learning a domain-specific language
like AS3 teaches a fairly narrow view of programming and how it works.
  
Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE 
language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java and 
I don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's outlook. 
I think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.


Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm 
really not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it 
supports just about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't 
think it's really limiting at all.


Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily 
implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.
  

It's always useful to learn other languages, but choose something
complimentary such a server-side scripting language - PHP, C# whatever.



A general-purpose programming language (C#, Python) complements
anything. My problem with recommending PHP is that it's another
domain-specific language.
  
I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good compliment 
to AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.


Paul

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 but I got Colins book for Christmas :)) and a 12 yr. old Chivas Regal to sit
 down with ;)

Chivas and coding don't mix well! At least, not in my own experience.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Dave Watts]

 Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
 language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java and I
 don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's outlook. I
 think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.

AS3 is designed to do one thing: build Flash applications. Pascal and
Java are both general-purpose programming languages. You can build all
sorts of different programs in them, and more importantly, you can
build programs that are really nothing but wrappers for specific
examples, without a lot of extra infrastructure needed to run them.
You can write a single Java class and run it from a command prompt.

 Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm really
 not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it supports just
 about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's really
 limiting at all.

 Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
 implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.

Dealing with concurrency is a common programming problem. I wouldn't
want to demonstrate concurrency solutions in AS3.

Writing a simple, argument-driven hello world program is far easier
in Pascal or Java (or especially Python) than AS3.

 I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good compliment to
 AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.

Sure, PHP is a good complement to AS3, as both can be used to build
different parts of web applications.

But again, I submit that there is value in learning a general-purpose
programming language, which isn't limited to building web
applications. The point of learning a second (or third, or Nth)
programming language isn't necessarily to perform a specific task, but
rather to learn how to program. A competent programmer can learn new
languages for specific tasks as required, because he or she already
knows how to program. The best languages for learning how to program
aren't those, like PHP or AS3, designed to solve a specific problem,
like building web applications. Focusing on a specific problem domain
is great for learning how to solve that single kind of problem, not so
great for other things.

As a ColdFusion developer, I see the same sort of thing all the time.
People learn how to write ColdFusion, as it's very easy, but they
develop a tunnel vision of sorts, and they don't understand a lot of
things about programming in general (like concurrency) because it's
not an issue in that language.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Jamie S]

I started with ActionScript and learned some PHP along the way. I found PHP
pretty simple to learn but I always found it tedious to work with. I
eventually picked up Ruby and really fell in love with it. The concepts were
easy to learn coming from an AS background.

Recently I've started to learn Objective-C and found the learning curve a
little hard given what I was used to in AS but eventually it clicked.
ActionScript is still my favorite, I wish it weren't so tied in to Flash.

Jamie

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Paul Andrews p...@ipauland.com wrote:

 Dave Watts wrote:

 I would get comfortable with AS3 and programming in general before
 attempting to tackle a second language.



 I don't really agree with this. Learning a domain-specific language
 like AS3 teaches a fairly narrow view of programming and how it works.


 Perhaps you can explain how AS3 is narrow. For years Pascal was THE
 language to learn programming then eventually it migrated to Java and I
 don't consider AS3 to be a limited language or narrow in it's outlook. I
 think it's rather a good and accessible first language to learn.

 Your main point may be that AS3 is really a client side language, I'm
 really not sure what you perceive as a limitation. As a language it supports
 just about all the notions of a modern OO language, so I don't think it's
 really limiting at all.

 Most of the programming principles from Java and the like are easily
 implemented in AS3, so I have no idea where the problem is.



 It's always useful to learn other languages, but choose something
 complimentary such a server-side scripting language - PHP, C# whatever.



 A general-purpose programming language (C#, Python) complements
 anything. My problem with recommending PHP is that it's another
 domain-specific language.


 I would suggest PHP, not as an AS3 look-alike, but as a good compliment to
 AS3 - as good as C# as a companion to As3 in the real-world.

 Paul

  Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
 http://www.figleaf.com/

 Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
 instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
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Re: [Flashcoders] hen's teeth...

[Karl DeSaulniers]

I'm thinking your probably right though, the hangover may kill me.
Just make sure you sip it, right.

I just meant that it is going to be a long night when I do get started.

Karl

On Jan 4, 2010, at 6:41 PM, Dave Watts wrote:

but I got Colins book for Christmas :)) and a 12 yr. old Chivas  
Regal to sit

down with ;)


Chivas and coding don't mix well! At least, not in my own experience.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta,
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