Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
It sounds very heroic. I'll keep and eye out for further enlightenment. Is this forum a philosophical debate or a support list for a technology? Come on, Paul... bothered by Scott's presence? Come on, we're writing webapps, not planning federal monetary policy or surgical regimens. There are no ethical dilemmas at play. If Flash didn't have such a clear lead in the market (currently) I'd swear you were suffering from an inferiority complex over your technology loyalties. ;-) I used to work as a technology evangelist / field engineer. I certainly didn't have a *blind* loyalty to my company's technology and, as a pragmatic programmer, accepted and admitted that it was not the right fit for all users all the time (or even most of the users most of the time). We're not marketing borg, we're engineers, we're practitioners. All (most) of us are here on this list because we've got a job to get done, not because we're drinking Adobe (or MS) kool-aid. Troy.
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Troy, it's never been about stifling Flex users from knowing about or integrating silverlight. I've got the message I'm drumming to a different beat.. Paul - Original Message - From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? It sounds very heroic. I'll keep and eye out for further enlightenment. Is this forum a philosophical debate or a support list for a technology? Come on, Paul... bothered by Scott's presence? Come on, we're writing webapps, not planning federal monetary policy or surgical regimens. There are no ethical dilemmas at play. If Flash didn't have such a clear lead in the market (currently) I'd swear you were suffering from an inferiority complex over your technology loyalties. ;-) I used to work as a technology evangelist / field engineer. I certainly didn't have a *blind* loyalty to my company's technology and, as a pragmatic programmer, accepted and admitted that it was not the right fit for all users all the time (or even most of the users most of the time). We're not marketing borg, we're engineers, we're practitioners. All (most) of us are here on this list because we've got a job to get done, not because we're drinking Adobe (or MS) kool-aid. Troy. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
I thought of a number of replies to this thread, but I'm sure this is going nowhere? Suffice to say: ..You don't change the course of history by turning the faces of portraits to the wall.. I'd rather spend more of my time influencing our future, then trying to defend our past? As I had no input or control over the previous folks before me. I don't think the community is in such a fragile state to suddenly firewall itself away from the Microsoft brand. Reading the below it almost sounds as if my infomercial will in turn suddenly cause a mass exodus from Flex? People's technology adoption behaviour is a lot more complex than a product fact placement in a random list?. Protect your community yes, but don't blind them as their ability to see will be that much more diminished. Scott. Product Manager Microsoft. On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Scott, Wow . Well maybe. I'm trying to make my mind up about whether I should really be bothered about your presence or not. As I said in another post, I've seen similar things in another technical area and the helpful posts were more about promotion of the rival technology rather than really helping the community. In the case in question the helpful posts contained very valid information for the community, particularly at first, but gradually the posts had subtexts inferring the superiority of the rival product and even at one stage offers of discounting to encourage people to jump ship. Then, as here, the poster was an expert in using both technologies and had many personal friends on the forum: no mistake about it the guy was loved by the community he left and really he was exploiting the situation to grow users of his product. His interventions split the community badly and eventually he desisted. Anyway, that gives an idea of where I come from. That particular forum often has discussions about the merits of the two products involved and generally it's not provocative. I'm not saying that you are behaving as this guy did, but for me there's an echo of what happened elsewhere. Seeing your posts really unsettled me. Maybe I'm wrong. Given your position at Microsoft, it's inevitable that your aim must be to encourage users of rival technologies to adopt your technologies. If you don't have that aim Microsoft recruited the wrong person. As impartial as you may try to be in your posts they effectively are an infomercial. I have no idea if Adobe staff are regularly correcting misconceptions on Silverlight forums. If they are, as a silverlight user, I'd have similar feelings. Ultimately developers will cross over and mix technologies and I'm not bothered about that. It's when the actual parties get involved that I get nervous. I think I've made my point, as have you and others. I'm going to let things be. Just don't offer any discounts here for Silverlight for Flex developers.. ;-) Paul - Original Message - *From:* Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 6:04 AM *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? wow :) I only joined Microsoft in 2007 (prior to which I was on this list coding away in Flex since this list was born), I don't know what we did prior to 2007 nor do I really care (can't change the past, can only influence the future!), suffice to say while I'm on the job, the tactics and strategies aren't underhanded and the compete is kept clean (which we have been really good about). That being said, when I see assumptions or inaccurate information being presented in a forum (couldn't care as to what theme or where) i'll simply step forward, make sure our opinion is heard and step back. I don't draw battle lines, I don't buy into this is our gangs turf, go to your own mentality as to me it just is a waste of brain matter to think in that mode. Suffice to say, should you still think it's not appropriate, Adobe Staffers have done similar posts to this on Silverlight related forums? (which I welcome! as I'm sure folks in the .NET community aren't kind to Adobe messaging either). It doesn't bother me that folks dislike Silverlight or say negative things about it, if it's not for you, great, enjoy Flex and all the best. I'd rather you dislike us with an accurate amount of information vs reading a friend of a friends blog post or picked up some random text byte on a forum somewhere. I'd encourage all to interact with various communities (don't be restricted by just one technology, explore more), as you learn more about your approach by seeing how others complete theirs. All the best and have another glass of wine! :) (if it's good, keep the flow going!). Scott Barnes Product Manager Microsoft. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oops too much red wine. I was going to say I wouldn't have
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
It sounds very heroic. I'll keep and eye out for further enlightenment. Paul - Original Message - From: Scott Barnes To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? I thought of a number of replies to this thread, but I'm sure this is going nowhere? Suffice to say: ..You don't change the course of history by turning the faces of portraits to the wall.. I'd rather spend more of my time influencing our future, then trying to defend our past? As I had no input or control over the previous folks before me. I don't think the community is in such a fragile state to suddenly firewall itself away from the Microsoft brand. Reading the below it almost sounds as if my infomercial will in turn suddenly cause a mass exodus from Flex? People's technology adoption behaviour is a lot more complex than a product fact placement in a random list?. Protect your community yes, but don't blind them as their ability to see will be that much more diminished. Scott. Product Manager Microsoft. On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Scott, Wow . Well maybe. I'm trying to make my mind up about whether I should really be bothered about your presence or not. As I said in another post, I've seen similar things in another technical area and the helpful posts were more about promotion of the rival technology rather than really helping the community. In the case in question the helpful posts contained very valid information for the community, particularly at first, but gradually the posts had subtexts inferring the superiority of the rival product and even at one stage offers of discounting to encourage people to jump ship. Then, as here, the poster was an expert in using both technologies and had many personal friends on the forum: no mistake about it the guy was loved by the community he left and really he was exploiting the situation to grow users of his product. His interventions split the community badly and eventually he desisted. Anyway, that gives an idea of where I come from. That particular forum often has discussions about the merits of the two products involved and generally it's not provocative. I'm not saying that you are behaving as this guy did, but for me there's an echo of what happened elsewhere. Seeing your posts really unsettled me. Maybe I'm wrong. Given your position at Microsoft, it's inevitable that your aim must be to encourage users of rival technologies to adopt your technologies. If you don't have that aim Microsoft recruited the wrong person. As impartial as you may try to be in your posts they effectively are an infomercial. I have no idea if Adobe staff are regularly correcting misconceptions on Silverlight forums. If they are, as a silverlight user, I'd have similar feelings. Ultimately developers will cross over and mix technologies and I'm not bothered about that. It's when the actual parties get involved that I get nervous. I think I've made my point, as have you and others. I'm going to let things be. Just don't offer any discounts here for Silverlight for Flex developers.. ;-) Paul - Original Message - From: Scott Barnes To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? wow :) I only joined Microsoft in 2007 (prior to which I was on this list coding away in Flex since this list was born), I don't know what we did prior to 2007 nor do I really care (can't change the past, can only influence the future!), suffice to say while I'm on the job, the tactics and strategies aren't underhanded and the compete is kept clean (which we have been really good about). That being said, when I see assumptions or inaccurate information being presented in a forum (couldn't care as to what theme or where) i'll simply step forward, make sure our opinion is heard and step back. I don't draw battle lines, I don't buy into this is our gangs turf, go to your own mentality as to me it just is a waste of brain matter to think in that mode. Suffice to say, should you still think it's not appropriate, Adobe Staffers have done similar posts to this on Silverlight related forums? (which I welcome! as I'm sure folks in the .NET community aren't kind to Adobe messaging either). It doesn't bother me that folks dislike Silverlight or say negative things about it, if it's not for you, great, enjoy Flex and all the best. I'd rather you dislike us with an accurate amount of information vs reading a friend of a friends blog post or picked up some random text byte on a forum somewhere. I'd encourage all to interact with various communities (don't be restricted by just one technology
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
wow :) I only joined Microsoft in 2007 (prior to which I was on this list coding away in Flex since this list was born), I don't know what we did prior to 2007 nor do I really care (can't change the past, can only influence the future!), suffice to say while I'm on the job, the tactics and strategies aren't underhanded and the compete is kept clean (which we have been really good about). That being said, when I see assumptions or inaccurate information being presented in a forum (couldn't care as to what theme or where) i'll simply step forward, make sure our opinion is heard and step back. I don't draw battle lines, I don't buy into this is our gangs turf, go to your own mentality as to me it just is a waste of brain matter to think in that mode. Suffice to say, should you still think it's not appropriate, Adobe Staffers have done similar posts to this on Silverlight related forums? (which I welcome! as I'm sure folks in the .NET community aren't kind to Adobe messaging either). It doesn't bother me that folks dislike Silverlight or say negative things about it, if it's not for you, great, enjoy Flex and all the best. I'd rather you dislike us with an accurate amount of information vs reading a friend of a friends blog post or picked up some random text byte on a forum somewhere. I'd encourage all to interact with various communities (don't be restricted by just one technology, explore more), as you learn more about your approach by seeing how others complete theirs. All the best and have another glass of wine! :) (if it's good, keep the flow going!). Scott Barnes Product Manager Microsoft. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oops too much red wine. I was going to say I wouldn't have been been bothered if it had been anyone but a senior MS guy. Don't worry about resurrecting this argument, I'm crawling back under my stone on this one. Paul - Original Message - *From:* Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:23 AM *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? No. I just think that when it's the head of a rival technology company technology, it's different. Clearly, it's not the general view so there's no point in making more of it. I wouldn't have been been bothered. It seems I shouldn't be bothered anyway, it seems. Paul - Original Message - *From:* Jeffry Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:18 PM *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? One of my friends, a long time ColdFusion Developer has been doing a lot of work with Ruby lately. Are you saying it's wrong for him to talk to me about Ruby? I'm not grokking the basis of your argument. Paul Andrews wrote: I guess I'm the agressive one. I've seen other products where former practictioners of product A have moved to rival company B and return to their former haunts to help out company A's customers with their insight. -- Jeffry Houser Flex, ColdFusion, AIR AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- Adobe Community Expert http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/members/JeffryHouser.html http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/members/JeffryHouser.html My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com http://www.dot-com-it.com/ My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com http://www.theflexshow.com/ My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com http://www.jeffryhouser.com/
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Hi Scott, Wow . Well maybe. I'm trying to make my mind up about whether I should really be bothered about your presence or not. As I said in another post, I've seen similar things in another technical area and the helpful posts were more about promotion of the rival technology rather than really helping the community. In the case in question the helpful posts contained very valid information for the community, particularly at first, but gradually the posts had subtexts inferring the superiority of the rival product and even at one stage offers of discounting to encourage people to jump ship. Then, as here, the poster was an expert in using both technologies and had many personal friends on the forum: no mistake about it the guy was loved by the community he left and really he was exploiting the situation to grow users of his product. His interventions split the community badly and eventually he desisted. Anyway, that gives an idea of where I come from. That particular forum often has discussions about the merits of the two products involved and generally it's not provocative. I'm not saying that you are behaving as this guy did, but for me there's an echo of what happened elsewhere. Seeing your posts really unsettled me. Maybe I'm wrong. Given your position at Microsoft, it's inevitable that your aim must be to encourage users of rival technologies to adopt your technologies. If you don't have that aim Microsoft recruited the wrong person. As impartial as you may try to be in your posts they effectively are an infomercial. I have no idea if Adobe staff are regularly correcting misconceptions on Silverlight forums. If they are, as a silverlight user, I'd have similar feelings. Ultimately developers will cross over and mix technologies and I'm not bothered about that. It's when the actual parties get involved that I get nervous. I think I've made my point, as have you and others. I'm going to let things be. Just don't offer any discounts here for Silverlight for Flex developers.. ;-) Paul - Original Message - From: Scott Barnes To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? wow :) I only joined Microsoft in 2007 (prior to which I was on this list coding away in Flex since this list was born), I don't know what we did prior to 2007 nor do I really care (can't change the past, can only influence the future!), suffice to say while I'm on the job, the tactics and strategies aren't underhanded and the compete is kept clean (which we have been really good about). That being said, when I see assumptions or inaccurate information being presented in a forum (couldn't care as to what theme or where) i'll simply step forward, make sure our opinion is heard and step back. I don't draw battle lines, I don't buy into this is our gangs turf, go to your own mentality as to me it just is a waste of brain matter to think in that mode. Suffice to say, should you still think it's not appropriate, Adobe Staffers have done similar posts to this on Silverlight related forums? (which I welcome! as I'm sure folks in the .NET community aren't kind to Adobe messaging either). It doesn't bother me that folks dislike Silverlight or say negative things about it, if it's not for you, great, enjoy Flex and all the best. I'd rather you dislike us with an accurate amount of information vs reading a friend of a friends blog post or picked up some random text byte on a forum somewhere. I'd encourage all to interact with various communities (don't be restricted by just one technology, explore more), as you learn more about your approach by seeing how others complete theirs. All the best and have another glass of wine! :) (if it's good, keep the flow going!). Scott Barnes Product Manager Microsoft. On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: oops too much red wine. I was going to say I wouldn't have been been bothered if it had been anyone but a senior MS guy. Don't worry about resurrecting this argument, I'm crawling back under my stone on this one. Paul - Original Message - From: Paul Andrews To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? No. I just think that when it's the head of a rival technology company technology, it's different. Clearly, it's not the general view so there's no point in making more of it. I wouldn't have been been bothered. It seems I shouldn't be bothered anyway, it seems. Paul - Original Message - From: Jeffry Houser To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Microsoft could always avoid mistakes by licencing Flash and Flex technology from Adobe.. ;-) Scott, I won't beat the drum, since I'm probably alone in thinking this: It's difficullt to see posts by a Microsoft Product Manager as being intended to help the flex community. Silverlite and whatever else people may choose to use - fine, but effectively promoting product while 'informing' the flex community, I find problematic. At least put your full title on your posts - don't be shy about being the WPF/Silverlight Product Manager. I know that you have stated that you are no longer a product Evangelist. I think the only thing that has happened is that the evangelising has become more subtle. Ironically, as a Flex developer I have a feeling I'm about to get beat up for this post. Paul (I'd also add that if I were sitting on a Microsoft forum (shudder), I'd feel equally peeved if Adobe bods were sticking their nose in there) - Original Message - From: Scott Barnes To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? heh, that would be an assumption. I use this forum to see what the average joe is having trouble with so that I can ensure we don't repeat the same mistakes, think of this as a great ear to the grown forum. I gave up my Flex days in 2007 ... Anyway.. just setting the record straght around some misconceptions around our products, do what you will with that. On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm always nice and MS marketing never sleeps. It's good to see that even Microsoft management are coding in Flex these days.. ;-) Have a good weekend. Paul - Original Message - From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail was little to non-existent. Troy. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Wow! I'm amazed to see the meandering (and aggressiveness of some folks) within this thread Paul - Scott offered a simple straight forward answer to a question (i.e. a informational and meaningful post). Sobecause someone works for Microsoft you choose to lambast their writings and viewpoints? Damn, that's down right silly... From: Paul Andrews Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:06 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Microsoft could always avoid mistakes by licencing Flash and Flex technology from Adobe.. ;-) Scott, I won't beat the drum, since I'm probably alone in thinking this: It's difficullt to see posts by a Microsoft Product Manager as being intended to help the flex community. Silverlite and whatever else people may choose to use - fine, but effectively promoting product while 'informing' the flex community, I find problematic. At least put your full title on your posts - don't be shy about being the WPF/Silverlight Product Manager. I know that you have stated that you are no longer a product Evangelist. I think the only thing that has happened is that the evangelising has become more subtle. Ironically, as a Flex developer I have a feeling I'm about to get beat up for this post. Paul (I'd also add that if I were sitting on a Microsoft forum (shudder), I'd feel equally peeved if Adobe bods were sticking their nose in there) - Original Message - From: Scott Barnes To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? heh, that would be an assumption. I use this forum to see what the average joe is having trouble with so that I can ensure we don't repeat the same mistakes, think of this as a great ear to the grown forum. I gave up my Flex days in 2007 ... Anyway.. just setting the record straght around some misconceptions around our products, do what you will with that. On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm always nice and MS marketing never sleeps. It's good to see that even Microsoft management are coding in Flex these days.. ;-) Have a good weekend. Paul - Original Message - From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail was little to non-existent. Troy. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Overreacting maybe, but not silly. Microsoft has many years of playing nicely ahead of them before they get benefit of the doubt. -J On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 10:20 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow! I'm amazed to see the meandering (and aggressiveness of some folks) within this thread Paul - Scott offered a simple straight forward answer to a question (i.e. a informational and meaningful post). Sobecause someone works for Microsoft you choose to lambast their writings and viewpoints? Damn, that's down right silly... *From:* Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:06 AM *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Microsoft could always avoid mistakes by licencing Flash and Flex technology from Adobe.. ;-) Scott, I won't beat the drum, since I'm probably alone in thinking this: It's difficullt to see posts by a Microsoft Product Manager as being intended to help the flex community. Silverlite and whatever else people may choose to use - fine, but effectively promoting product while 'informing' the flex community, I find problematic. At least put your full title on your posts - don't be shy about being the WPF/Silverlight Product Manager. I know that you have stated that you are no longer a product Evangelist. I think the only thing that has happened is that the evangelising has become more subtle. Ironically, as a Flex developer I have a feeling I'm about to get beat up for this post. Paul ** (I'd also add that if I were sitting on a Microsoft forum (shudder), I'd feel equally peeved if Adobe bods were sticking their nose in there) ** - Original Message - *From:* Scott Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* flexcoders@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Friday, May 30, 2008 8:18 PM *Subject:* Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? heh, that would be an assumption. I use this forum to see what the average joe is having trouble with so that I can ensure we don't repeat the same mistakes, think of this as a great ear to the grown forum. I gave up my Flex days in 2007 ... Anyway.. just setting the record straght around some misconceptions around our products, do what you will with that. On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm always nice and MS marketing never sleeps. It's good to see that even Microsoft management are coding in Flex these days.. ;-) Have a good weekend. Paul - Original Message - From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] troy.gilbert%40gmail.com To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail was little to non-existent. Troy. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com -- Therefore, send not to know For whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee. :: Josh 'G-Funk' McDonald :: 0437 221 380 :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
I guess I'm the agressive one. I've seen other products where former
practictioners of product A have moved to rival company B and return to their
former haunts to help out company A's customers with their insight.
You would have to be naive to consider that the product manager for
WPF/Silverlight is only interested in answering technical questions when the
future of his technology depends on dragging Flex developers screaming and
shouting towards his product set.
I'm sure Scott is a great guy, but while he has that big desk at Microsoft, his
life has to be oriented towards pushing his technology, however subtly he
choses to do it. I don't think this is particularly subtle, even if others see
no harm in it.
If some flex user has some issues with silverlight integration and someone who
knows about it chips in great. When that's the product manager for a competing
product, well I'm not so happy. I've seen it done before.
Paul
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3
Profesional?
Wow!
I'm amazed to see the meandering (and aggressiveness of some folks) within
this thread
Paul - Scott offered a simple straight forward answer to a question (i.e. a
informational and meaningful post). Sobecause someone works for Microsoft
you choose to lambast their writings and viewpoints? Damn, that's down right
silly...
From: Paul Andrews
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:06 AM
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3
Profesional?
Microsoft could always avoid mistakes by licencing Flash and Flex technology
from Adobe.. ;-)
Scott, I won't beat the drum, since I'm probably alone in thinking this: It's
difficullt to see posts by a Microsoft Product Manager as being intended to
help the flex community. Silverlite and whatever else people may choose to use
- fine, but effectively promoting product while 'informing' the flex community,
I find problematic.
At least put your full title on your posts - don't be shy about being the
WPF/Silverlight Product Manager.
I know that you have stated that you are no longer a product Evangelist. I
think the only thing that has happened is that the evangelising has become more
subtle.
Ironically, as a Flex developer I have a feeling I'm about to get beat up for
this post.
Paul
(I'd also add that if I were sitting on a Microsoft forum (shudder), I'd feel
equally peeved if Adobe bods were sticking their nose in there)
- Original Message -
From: Scott Barnes
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3
Profesional?
heh, that would be an assumption. I use this forum to see what the average
joe is having trouble with so that I can ensure we don't repeat the same
mistakes, think of this as a great ear to the grown forum. I gave up my Flex
days in 2007 ...
Anyway.. just setting the record straght around some misconceptions around
our products, do what you will with that.
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm always nice and MS marketing never sleeps.
It's good to see that even Microsoft management are coding in Flex these
days.. ;-)
Have a good weekend.
Paul
- Original Message -
From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex
3
Profesional?
Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than
an
extension of the MS marketing effort..
Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of
whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the
same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to
provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was
suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to
purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail
was little to non-existent.
Troy.
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Regards,
Scott Barnes
http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Overreacting maybe, but not silly. Microsoft has many years of playing nicely ahead of them before they get benefit of the doubt. We don't have to give MS the benefit of the doubt... just Scott. And over the last year or so, I've not seen anything from Scott that would suggest we should give him anything *but* the benefit-of-the-doubt. Looking over the thread what I see is Flex developers stating facts about Silverlight that weren't true, the Silverlight PM correcting those errors, and then multiple Flex developers accusing the PM of marketing as well as directly insulting his employer and product. Sorry to tell you guys, but MS is looking classy here, and Flex (developers) is looking slummy. We're better than that. Let's drop it. Troy.
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
One of my friends, a long time ColdFusion Developer has been doing a lot of work with Ruby lately. Are you saying it's wrong for him to talk to me about Ruby? I'm not grokking the basis of your argument. Paul Andrews wrote: I guess I'm the agressive one. I've seen other products where former practictioners of product A have moved to rival company B and return to their former haunts to help out company A's customers with their insight. -- Jeffry Houser Flex, ColdFusion, AIR AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- Adobe Community Expert http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/members/JeffryHouser.html My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
No. I just think that when it's the head of a rival technology company technology, it's different. Clearly, it's not the general view so there's no point in making more of it. I wouldn't have been been bothered. It seems I shouldn't be bothered anyway, it seems. Paul - Original Message - From: Jeffry Houser To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? One of my friends, a long time ColdFusion Developer has been doing a lot of work with Ruby lately. Are you saying it's wrong for him to talk to me about Ruby? I'm not grokking the basis of your argument. Paul Andrews wrote: I guess I'm the agressive one. I've seen other products where former practictioners of product A have moved to rival company B and return to their former haunts to help out company A's customers with their insight. -- Jeffry Houser Flex, ColdFusion, AIR AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- Adobe Community Expert http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/members/JeffryHouser.html My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
oops too much red wine. I was going to say I wouldn't have been been bothered if it had been anyone but a senior MS guy. Don't worry about resurrecting this argument, I'm crawling back under my stone on this one. Paul - Original Message - From: Paul Andrews To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? No. I just think that when it's the head of a rival technology company technology, it's different. Clearly, it's not the general view so there's no point in making more of it. I wouldn't have been been bothered. It seems I shouldn't be bothered anyway, it seems. Paul - Original Message - From: Jeffry Houser To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? One of my friends, a long time ColdFusion Developer has been doing a lot of work with Ruby lately. Are you saying it's wrong for him to talk to me about Ruby? I'm not grokking the basis of your argument. Paul Andrews wrote: I guess I'm the agressive one. I've seen other products where former practictioners of product A have moved to rival company B and return to their former haunts to help out company A's customers with their insight. -- Jeffry Houser Flex, ColdFusion, AIR AIM: Reboog711 | Phone: 1-203-379-0773 -- Adobe Community Expert http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/members/JeffryHouser.html My Company: http://www.dot-com-it.com My Podcast: http://www.theflexshow.com My Blog: http://www.jeffryhouser.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
On Friday 30 May 2008, Scott Barnes wrote: FYI: If you wanted to build Silverlight with nothing but Notepad, here's how: http://weblogs.asp.net/mschwarz/archive/2007/06/05/how-to-create-silverligh t-applications-with-notepad.aspx I was hoping for nothing but vi, but there's still no sign of Linux runtime* either... good effort though. -- Tom Chiverton *Yes, I know of Mono/Moonlight. Giving your test case source to a project does not a runtime make. This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. - Original Message - From: Scott Barnes To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? No offence taken. FYI: If you wanted to build Silverlight with nothing but Notepad, here's how: http://weblogs.asp.net/mschwarz/archive/2007/06/05/how-to-create-silverlight-applications-with-notepad.aspx Also keep in mind should .NET not be your cup of tea, we've also shipped Silverlight to include the DLR as well as the CLR (ie if you wish to carry the Smalltalk torch forward into the RIA space, go for it! choose your own language and compile!) All the best. - Scott Barnes Product Manager Microsoft. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:54 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 29 May 2008, Scott Barnes wrote: Expression Studio is not required to write Silverlight (It's obviously recommended though). That being said it's kind of like saying Flex Builder is/isn't required to write Flex? :) shrug No offence to Scott, but I just don't trust Microsoft the same way I do Adobe. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail was little to non-existent. Troy.
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
I'm always nice and MS marketing never sleeps. It's good to see that even Microsoft management are coding in Flex these days.. ;-) Have a good weekend. Paul - Original Message - From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail was little to non-existent. Troy. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
heh, that would be an assumption. I use this forum to see what the average joe is having trouble with so that I can ensure we don't repeat the same mistakes, think of this as a great ear to the grown forum. I gave up my Flex days in 2007 ... Anyway.. just setting the record straght around some misconceptions around our products, do what you will with that. On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm always nice and MS marketing never sleeps. It's good to see that even Microsoft management are coding in Flex these days.. ;-) Have a good weekend. Paul - Original Message - From: Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] troy.gilbert%40gmail.com To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional? Just for a moment I thought this was the flex coders forum rather than an extension of the MS marketing effort.. Okay, be nice, it's on-topic... the thread had lead to a question of whether it was possible to develop in Silverlight for free (in the same way its possible to develop in Flex for free). Scott was able to provide an authoritative answer on that, which is good, because it was suggested that it was not an option and that one would have to purchase Expression. I think the marketing effort in Scott's e-mail was little to non-existent. Troy. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
On Thursday 29 May 2008, Scott Barnes wrote: Expression Studio is not required to write Silverlight (It's obviously recommended though). That being said it's kind of like saying Flex Builder is/isn't required to write Flex? :) shrug No offence to Scott, but I just don't trust Microsoft the same way I do Adobe. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
No offence taken. FYI: If you wanted to build Silverlight with nothing but Notepad, here's how: http://weblogs.asp.net/mschwarz/archive/2007/06/05/how-to-create-silverlight-applications-with-notepad.aspx Also keep in mind should .NET not be your cup of tea, we've also shipped Silverlight to include the DLR as well as the CLR (ie if you wish to carry the Smalltalk torch forward into the RIA space, go for it! choose your own language and compile!) All the best. - Scott Barnes Product Manager Microsoft. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:54 AM, Tom Chiverton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 29 May 2008, Scott Barnes wrote: Expression Studio is not required to write Silverlight (It's obviously recommended though). That being said it's kind of like saying Flex Builder is/isn't required to write Flex? :) shrug No offence to Scott, but I just don't trust Microsoft the same way I do Adobe. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
On Tuesday 27 May 2008, Troy Gilbert wrote: you're talking about)? The .NET SDK is free to use without VS.NET, and I believe it has a 'non compete' clause, but we're not looking to use a single platform solution regardless of cost. the runtime is freely available. Hell, MS even provides a free version of VS.NET (or has at various times for the cost of SH). Isn't 'Expression studio' required for Silverlight, at some cost ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at Halliwells LLP, 3 Hardman Square, Spinningfields, Manchester, M3 3EB. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by The Solicitors Regulation Authority. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 2500. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. -- Flexcoders Mailing List FAQ: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt Search Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
I believe it has a 'non compete' clause, but we're not looking to use a single platform solution regardless of cost. It may, it may not. Doesn't really matter, though. If you made a product that competes with an MS product then realistically you can afford to pay $150 to purchase a commercial version of the compiler. Isn't 'Expression studio' required for Silverlight, at some cost ? I wasn't thinking specifically Silverlight (just .NET), and don't know if Expression Studio is required. I'd doubt it, as that would slow adoption down incredibly which would be counter to MS's goals. But I was only speaking to .NET... Troy.
Re: [flexcoders] The different between generial Flex 3 and Flex 3 Profesional?
Expression Studio is not required to write Silverlight (It's obviously recommended though). That being said it's kind of like saying Flex Builder is/isn't required to write Flex? :) - Scott Barnes Product Manager Microsoft. On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Troy Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe it has a 'non compete' clause, but we're not looking to use a single platform solution regardless of cost. It may, it may not. Doesn't really matter, though. If you made a product that competes with an MS product then realistically you can afford to pay $150 to purchase a commercial version of the compiler. Isn't 'Expression studio' required for Silverlight, at some cost ? I wasn't thinking specifically Silverlight (just .NET), and don't know if Expression Studio is required. I'd doubt it, as that would slow adoption down incredibly which would be counter to MS's goals. But I was only speaking to .NET... Troy. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com
