Re: [Flightgear-devel] Calculating free stick position and forces

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Jon S. Berndt wrote:

> Actually, Alan is correct, as Ron also mentioned in the JSBSim-devel list,
> where this topic is cross-posted. I think it is quite possible that we can
> already do this using  definitions in the  section
> of an aircraft spec. file. There is no perceptible performance hit to using
>  definitions. The functions are implemented in C++, are fairly
> efficient, and calculations are cached per-frame. I'd prefer not to see
> possibly type-specific hard-coded calculations going into the codebase - I
> think we can implement this in the current codebase using existing
> capabilities.
>
> Jon
>
>
I agree, there are already enough tools in the config file for defining the
stick force. But how can we trim the stick force? Would it be possible to
use the autopilot functions? or a new trim "mode" is needed in the code?

Fabián
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Improving the elevator modeling

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:05 AM,  wrote:

> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>...
> >>
> >> The only parts lacking in the JSBSim as best as I can determine are some
> >> numbers to define the elevator aero coefficents, hinge moments as a
> >> function of tail alpha and deflection, and changes in the aspect ratio
> >> of the wing as a function of flap deflections that will be used to
> >> calculate the downwash for a specific wing configuration and flight
> > condition
> >>
> >> Any comments??
> >>
> >> John
> >
> > John,
> >
> > You might try posting this on the JSBSim developer list. I know that
> > Agostino De Marco has done some modeling of hinge moments using JSBSim. I
> > seem to recall that he wrote an AIAA paper that included hinge moment
> > modeling, etc.
> >
> > Downwash can probably be calculated as a function (perhaps as a function
> > of
> > lift force generated), and a "local" alpha for the elevator can be
> > calculated that accounts for the downwash angle.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> I can do that ;-)  Does Agostino follow/post to the JSBSim list?  Would
> like to exchange ideas with him.  Any particular reason why his work has
> not migrated into the JSBSim code?
>
> John
>
>

The elevator hinge moment (say, elev_hinge) can be modeled with the JSBSim
functions in the config file (or better in a separate "system" file. Then a
new trim mode should be coded, which would trim not only the aircraft but
also the elevator hinge moment (using the defined elev_hinge parameter). I
don't see right now any other way to do this, but I hope there is an easier
one. Agostino's work could bring some light.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] NASA 3D Models

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

What a coincidence! I discovered those models just yesterday!

I managed to open the Shuttle model in Blender, so I guess it would be
possible to have them exported to Flightgear.

BTW, here's the link to the site:
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/3d_resources/models.html

Regards,
Fabián

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Jon S. Berndt wrote:

> Can these be converted to the format that FlightGear uses - particularly
> the
> crawler, the VAB, and the launch complex - as well as the launch vehicle
> models?
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] Optimal desktop processor/graphic card

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

Hi,
I'm planning to buy a new desktop PC and I want to be sure I will be able to
run FG smoothly (I may also be doing some video editing, but that's for
another forum).
Which processor/graphic card will be the optimal combination, without
braking my bank account? I was thinking on an Intel i5 (dual core or quad
core?) Do I need the i7 series? For the graphics I'm thinking about the ATI
Radeon HD 5670 or 5770; the 5770 is $100 more expensive, do I really need
it? Are cheaper cards enough?

Thank you.

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[Flightgear-devel] Operating System

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

Hi,
I'm planning to buy a new PC with operating system.
Is there any OS that is not supported by FlightGear? I want to be sure I'll
be able to compile and run FlightGear. Is Windows 7 64-bit supported? Or
should I better stay with Windows 7 32-bit.

Please Linux people don't laugh at me :(

Thank you!

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Airliners and Auto Pitch-Trim

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

Hi,

I have no experience in FGFS capabilities in terms of autopilot and
trimming, but I do have some in JSBSim, so I will refer only to that FDM,
and I hope this will be relevant to this discussion.

First, I think it would be good to have this in mind: there are two types of
trim: 1. Aircraft pitching moment trim, which refers to making the aircraft
pitching moment zero, and 2. stick force trim, which, obviously, refers to
zeroing the pilot stick forces.

As Heiko has already pointed, airliners and most business jets use the
stabilizer for pitching moment trim. In JSBSim this CAN be modeled as
follows:


:
:

fcs/pitch-trim-cmd-norm   

-1
 1


:
:

This will yield a fcs/stabilizer-trim-sum that can be mapped into a
fcs/stabilizer-pos-deg (using an aerosurface_scale) which can be then used
to calculate the tail angle of attack (alpha+stab-downwash) and from there
the tail lift and/or pitching moment (of course this aerodynamic data is not
always easy to achieve).

Regarding the second type of trim (stick force), as far as I know JSBSim
does not have the capability for this yet, although it may be possible to
build that on the base of existing trimming options). For manually operated
elevators, the elevator angle for zero force will depend on hinge moments
(affected by alpha_tail, dynamic pressure, etc.), and will normally will be
different from 0 degrees. For powered elevators (as in modern or high
performance aircraft) zero elevator deflection will give zero stick force
(by means of an "artificial feeling" system).

For how all said above can be applied in FGFS...well, somebody familiar with
that part would need to jump in.

I hope this was not more confusing than helpful...

Fabian


On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Innis Cunningham  wrote:

>  Hi Guys
> I think you will find on all Boeing aircraft if the elevator is out of
> neutral
> for a set amount of time the horizontal stabilizer runs to return the
> elevator to
> the null position.Hence retriming the aircraft.Hence the name stabilizer
> trim
> I think also you will find that the tab on the elevator is not
> a trim tab but moves in the opposite direction to the elevator movement.
> So until we get a working FDM for the horizontal stabilizer in FG anything
> else will be a hack.
>
> Cheers
> Innis
>
>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I just tried with the SenceaII and both Ti and elevator filter influence
> this.
> >
> > Great, thanks to all for the help!
> >
> > Cheers
> > Heiko
> >
> > > If you have a pid-simple-controller,
> > > try increasing Ti, it slows down
> > > the action.
> > > > Hi Torsten,
> > > >
> > > > That sounds like it could be done without nasal just
> > > in the autopilot file. I guess the speed of the
> > > trim-pitch-channel can be changed with the filter? (The
> > > 737-300 has a speed-trim at certain situations)
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards
> > > > Heiko
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Heiko,
> > > > >
> > > > > the auto-pitch-trim channel moves the elevator
> > > trim to
> > > > > return the
> > > > > elevator into the neutral position while the
> > > pitch-channel
> > > > > moves the
> > > > > elevator to change attitude.
> > > > > Or a bit more technical:
> > > > > The auto-pitch-trim-channel compares the
> > > elevator-pos-norm
> > > > > to a
> > > > > reference of zero and adjusts elevator-trim
> > > > > The pitch-channel compares e.g. current pitch
> > > with a
> > > > > reference of some
> > > > > calculated target pitch and adjusts elevator-pos
> > > > > Usually the pitch-trim channel is much slower
> > > than the
> > > > > elevator channel.
> > > > > HTH, Torsten
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Flightgear in industry use

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:50:14 -0500, Curtis wrote in message
> :
>
> > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 5:46 AM, Leonardo Fabian Grodek wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Looking for information on autopilots I've found this:
> > >
> > > http://www.cloudcaptech.com/piccolo_II.shtm#software
> > > In the list of downloadable software you can see Flightgear listed,
> > > with credits.
> > > I've also found this:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/Piccolo%20Documentation/Version%202.1.1%20Docs/Software/Piccolo%20Simulator.pdf
> > >
> > > Those more active than me in FG development (almost everybody but me
> > > indeed...) could feel proud of their work by seeing FG recommended
> > > by industry leaders.
> > >
> > >
> > I got to see a Cloudcap Piccolo flying on big UAV earlier this fall
> > (16' wing span, 150 lbs beast of an airplane).  This was an older
> > piccolo.  I hear v2 is even better.  Good stuff!  (of course the uav
> > stuff I'm working will be much better once it is finished.) :-)
> >
> > Curt.
>
> ..aye.  One problem, they provide FG binaries, but no source???
> http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/FlightGear/
>
> --


Well, under Piccolo Systems --> Downloads --> Piccolo Setup and User Guides,
there's a link to this Piccolo Simulator document:
http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/Piccolo%20Documentation/Version%202.1.1%20Docs/Software/Piccolo%20Simulator.pdf

In the Introduction of this document they mention the "open source
Flightgear simulator". Then, on page 40 they explain how to install
Flightgear, and on page 42 they finally "discover" one of Flightgear's
how-to pages. From here the user could get to all Flightgear information and
sources.

I agree they could have mentioned Flightgear's link for the sources in a
more otstanding way; nevertheless, it seems they are not trying to hide the
"openeness" of the simulator; they may have overseen something in the GPL
rules, and by presenting to them this issue they would include a link to the
Download Source Code page.

Fabian
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[Flightgear-devel] Flightgear in industry use

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

Hi,
Looking for information on autopilots I've found this:

http://www.cloudcaptech.com/piccolo_II.shtm#software
In the list of downloadable software you can see Flightgear listed, with
credits.
I've also found this:

http://www.cloudcaptech.com/download/Piccolo/Piccolo%20Documentation/Version%202.1.1%20Docs/Software/Piccolo%20Simulator.pdf

Those more active than me in FG development (almost everybody but me
indeed...) could feel proud of their work by seeing FG recommended by
industry leaders.

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another person selling FlightGear on ebay

[Leonardo Fabian Grodek]

On 10/21/09, Jon S. Berndt  wrote:
>
> Maybe there ought to be a continuous listing on eBay for FlightGear that we
> put there, that mentions all the other "rebrands", and prominently displays
> the web site, that it can be downloaded freely. The idea behind the listing
> wouldn't be to make money, just to set the facts straight.
>
> Or something like that ...
>
> Jon



Excellent idea.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Another FlightGear Package for Sale: Illegal?

[Fabian Grodek]

Interesting, if you look at the very bottom of their home page (
www.flightprosim.com) you can click on Developers; this brings you to a page
where you can join the "Flight Pro Sim" developers !!
I did not try to join yet, but would be interesting to see WHO are those
developers...

Fabian



On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Martin Spott wrote:

> "Alan Teeder" wrote:
>
> > How about naming and shaming all of these profiteers on the main website,
> > warning newcomers that they can get an up to date version for free (and
> > contribute should they wish).
>
> This idea is to my liking  :-)
>
>Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation

[Fabian Grodek]

I use Windows XP to (try to) compile FlightGear. Sorry, but no Linux at the
moment on my PC ...
Now I can imagine most of you nodding ... :)

Fabian
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:44 PM, francesco wrote:

> Fabian Grodek ha scritto:
> > Well, that seems to be the point: I'm using the released version of FG
> > (1.9.0) since I had trouble in compiling from [CVS] source. I may need
> > to make a new effort to be able to compile CVS versions indeed.
> > Thank you.
> What O.S. do you use to compile FlightGear ?
> >
> > Fabian
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation

[Fabian Grodek]

Well, that seems to be the point: I'm using the released version of FG
(1.9.0) since I had trouble in compiling from [CVS] source. I may need to
make a new effort to be able to compile CVS versions indeed.
Thank you.

Fabian

On 6/7/09, Victhor  wrote:
>
> It is avaliable in all aircraft. Maybe you don't use CVS version?
> > That's very interesting to know John.Coping with the windmilling drag
> > would be the next step. But first I want to be able to cut the engine.
> >
> > Thanks Victhor and Ron.
> >
> > Victhor, I've tried Method 3 but I cannot find any MTBF for the
> > engines; maybe this is only available for a specific aircraft model?
> > which one? In methods 1 or 2, do you refer to cockpit toggles?
> >
> > Ron, do you mean setting /engines/engine[*]/running to 0 in the
> > jsbsim-set file?
> >
> > Fabian
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 11:22 PM, John Wojnaroski
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > We've implemented that capability in our version of FG
> > supplied to
> > NASA/Ames as part of the 737NG project; however that requires
> > a totally
> > different approach to modeling the engine, fuel tanks, and
> > engine feed
> > systems.  The code is licensed under the GPL and there is a
> > 1.9.1 version.
> >
> > Plus a lot depends on the type or mode of engine failure you
> > wish to
> > simlate and, of course, a BIG difference between losing a
> > piston engine
> > with a windmilling prop versus a turbine engine.
> >
> > JW
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation

[Fabian Grodek]

That's very interesting to know John.Coping with the windmilling drag would
be the next step. But first I want to be able to cut the engine.

Thanks Victhor and Ron.

Victhor, I've tried Method 3 but I cannot find any MTBF for the engines;
maybe this is only available for a specific aircraft model? which one? In
methods 1 or 2, do you refer to cockpit toggles?

Ron, do you mean setting /engines/engine[*]/running to 0 in the jsbsim-set
file?

Fabian



On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 11:22 PM, John Wojnaroski wrote:

>
> >
> We've implemented that capability in our version of FG supplied to
> NASA/Ames as part of the 737NG project; however that requires a totally
> different approach to modeling the engine, fuel tanks, and engine feed
> systems.  The code is licensed under the GPL and there is a 1.9.1 version.
>
> Plus a lot depends on the type or mode of engine failure you wish to
> simlate and, of course, a BIG difference between losing a piston engine
> with a windmilling prop versus a turbine engine.
>
> JW
>
>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] Single engine takeoff simulation

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,

Is it possible to simulate an engine failure during takeoff (or at any
flight stage) in Flightgear? If the answer is positive, is there an aircraft
model (with two or more engines, of course) ready to do that?

I've tried to set "set-running" property to false or 0 in the property
browser while in flight, but this is ignored, the property retaining its
"true" value.

Fabian.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] northern hemisphere vs southern hemisphere

[Fabian Grodek]

Interesting. But, why the objects do not "fall" TO the sky in the southern
hemisphere? And, what happens when you cross the Ecuator flying? Maybe it's
only something related to the way the blades' bending is modelled?

Fabian


On 2/21/09, BARANGER Emmanuel  wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> After some tests, I just discovered something amusing in FG.
>
> In fact, you do not know can be, but the gravity is reversed between the
> northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere. Finally it is the impression
> that it was ;)
>
> Look the Bo105 in northen hemisphere : http://helijah.free.fr/LFKJ2.png
> the same in southern hemisphere : http://helijah.free.fr/FACT2.png
>
> Or the Aircrane (blades longer) in northen hemisphere :
> http://helijah.free.fr/LFKJ.png
> and in southern hemisphere : http://helijah.free.fr/FACT.png
>
> Although this will not interfere with many of us. Many of us live in the
> northern hemisphere. But what should we say to those who live in the
> southern hemisphere ?
>
> Funny is not it ?
>
> Best regards. Emmanuel
>
> --
> BARANGER Emmanuel
> http://helijah.free.frhttp://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/hangar.htmhttp://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/H4-Hercules.htmhttp://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/flightgear.htmhttp://www.jamendo.com/fr/album/27163
>
>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] Atlas download

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
Does anybody know what happened to the Atlas website (atlas.sourceforge.net)?
All links (including the "downloads") one have been inactive for a few days.

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] screenshots for v1.9

[Fabian Grodek]

On 12/23/08, Heiko Schulz  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here are some of my screenies for the gallery! Feel free to take one or
> more of them.
>
> http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie/FGFS1.9.0/index.htm
>
>
> Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all!
> HHS


Really stunning pics!
I think the pic of the 777 over the airport must be in the screenshots list.
Beautifull airplane in excellent lighting.
Merry Cristmas and happy new year to you all !

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Simgear Build - pthread.h, and alut.h

[Fabian Grodek]

Never mind, your tip to google for the libraries helped me a lot, and should
help me in the future for almost anything I'll need  :) I should have
thought about it before.
I'll change the path for the alut fil, which I already have in the OpenAl
package.
Thank you very much.
Fabian

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:32 PM, Yon Uriarte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>  omg, im getting senile, my apologies. Alut is from the OpenAL package. I
> compile it from the OpenAL SVN repos and have
> yet to hear a single sound from fg. But it compiles and runs. I use
> pthreads-2-8-0, precompiled.
>
> hth,
>  yon
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Yon Uriarte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>  google for pthreads-win32 and freealut (iirc).
>>
>> HTH, regards,
>>  yon
>>
>>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] Simgear Build - pthread.h, and alut.h

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
Here's a noobie question about Simgear build (in VC++ 2005 Express Edition)
I get messages that the files pthread.h and alut.h cannot be found.
These files are called by #include statements in sgthread.hxx (v1.9) and
sample_openal.cxx (v1.32) and .hxx (v1.23).
Where could I find these files (pthread.h and alut.h)? A search in my whole
system found nothing.

Thank you.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OpenSceneGraph

[Fabian Grodek]

On 12/8/08, Martin Spott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Fabian Grodek" wrote:
>
> > Is there any location other than
> > http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Downloads
> >
> > to get the OpenSceneGraph libraries? The link above is not working.
>
> As a last resort you might try:
>
> ftp://ftp.ihg.uni-duisburg.de/FlightGear/OSG/
>
>   to get a source tree that works with FlightGear - even though it
> doesn't carry the entire development history (2.7.3 works fine),
>
>Martin.
> --


Thank you. The ftp worked.
Fabian
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[Flightgear-devel] OpenSceneGraph

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
Is there any location other than
http://www.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/wiki/Downloads

to get the OpenSceneGraph libraries? The link above is not working.
Thank you.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tarball of bleeding edge CVS snapshot

[Fabian Grodek]

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Alex Buzin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Fabian Grodek wrote:
> > I'm using Tortoise.
> > Can somebody tell me what should be the command line? Something like:
> > :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear..
> > Thank you.
> > Fabian
>
> Look at the http://www.flightgear.org/cvs/anoncvs.html
>
> Thank you Alex. I was confused by the directory name as appears on those
instructions. I thought it was the previous 0-9 version; now I know I was
wrong.
Ah, and I finally succeeded in checking out !
Thank you again.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download

[Fabian Grodek]

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:11 PM, gerard robin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  On vendredi 05 décembre 2008, you wrote:
> > the usual process is
> > cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9
> login
> > answering guest  to pasword request
> > and
> > cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 co
> > source to get source
> >
> > Did you do  something  else ?
>
> Though.. now it would be more "modern"  to have an other Folder id
> ===>FlightGear-1.9<=
>
> :)
>
> --
> Gérard
>
That was going to be exactly my next question ! I was wondering why the path
is to version 0.9.
I understand now that it brings me to the most up-to-date source, despite
the folder name. Right?

BTW, your help was great. For the first time after a few weeks trying I
succeeded in checking out the code !!
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
I've been trying to checkout FlightGear source code from the CVS Repository
but I always get the message:

Logging in to :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:2401:/var/cvs/FlightGear

cvs [login aborted]: /var/cvs/FlightGear: no such repository

A similar message I get also with Tortise client.

Can anybody be so kind as to tell me what am I doing wrong?

Thank you very much.

Fabian




On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Fabian Grodek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
>
>  On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Martin Spott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> "Fabian Grodek" wrote:
>>
>> > I've been trying to download scenery from flightgear.org since
>> yesterday
>> > without success. Is there any problem with the server?
>>
>> If you're familiar with FlightGear CVS, then you might want to build
>> the new 'terrasync' tool and download your Scenery from the pre-defined
>> SVN service.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>Martin.
>> --
>>
>
>
> Well, I'm not really familiar with FlighGear CVS, but I think I'll get into
> that soon. I see it's well worth.
> Thank you.
> Fabian
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tarball of bleeding edge CVS snapshot

[Fabian Grodek]

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Frederic Bouvier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> - "Csaba Halász" a écrit :
> > On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Fabian Grodek
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > I've been unable to open the link to the tarball of the bleeding
> > edge CVS
> > > snapshot found in the Download Souce page:
> > >
> >
> http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewvc/viewvc.cgi/source.tar.gz?view=tar
> > >
> > > Is something wrong with that page?
> >
> > Tarball has been disabled for some time, maybe just an omission and
> > not intentional. Would be nice to have it back. Curt?
>
> Anyway, the link is wrong. Now cvs is at
> http://cvs.flightgear.org/viewvc/
>
> -Fred
>
>

Thanks for all the answers. Unfortunatelly I still cannot download
Flightgear current source from the repository.
I'm using Tortoise.
Can somebody tell me what should be the command line? Something like:
:pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear..

Thank you.

Fabian
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[Flightgear-devel] Tarball of bleeding edge CVS snapshot

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
I've been unable to open the link to the tarball of the bleeding edge CVS
snapshot found in the Download Souce page:
http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewvc/viewvc.cgi/source.tar.gz?view=tar

Is something wrong with that page?

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Constant property in a JSBSim model

[Fabian Grodek]

On 11/29/08, gerard robin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> BTW: If you don't want FG with OSG (and Boost) you could try with the cvs
> preosg which had been kindly updated by Eric with the JSBSim last version.
>
> cvs -d :pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/cvs/FlightGear-0.9 co -r
> PRE_OSG_PLIB_20061029 source


Thank you very much Gerard. That will help a lot.

Nevertheless, I'd like to be able to get the most up-to-date source code,
but I'm having trouble connecting to the CVS repository (I use Tortoise, as
I do with JSBSim without problems). And if I try through FG web page by
clicking:
Developers --> Source code --> Download a tarball of the latest Bleeding
Edge CVS snapshot (
http://cvs.flightgear.org/cgi-bin/viewvc/viewvc.cgi/source.tar.gz?view=tar)
I get that the page cannot be found.

What's wrong?

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Constant property in a JSBSim model

[Fabian Grodek]

Jon, you're right, again.The FG version I'm running does not support initial
values in properties. Indeed, I do not get the console messages as Gérard
points, and a look at the codes reveals the reason.
Now I see there are more than one good motivation for me to start building
my own FG binaries out of the most up-to-date FG source code.

Fabian.

On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 1:28 AM, gerard robin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  On vendredi 28 novembre 2008, Jon S. Berndt wrote:
> > Is this again a factor of using an older version of JSBSim? Check the
> file,
> > FGFCS.cpp, compared between the latest JSBSim release and the code you
> are
> > using in FlightGear.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you are using the same code, this should work.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jon
> >
>


>
>
> And, you should get with FG cvs on your console, during the moading of
> JSBSim,
> for instance the following messages
>
>
>Declared properties
>
>  systems/hook/tailhook-cmd-norm (initial value: 0)
>  systems/hook/tailhook-length-ft (initial value: 4)
>  systems/hook/tailhook-pos-min-deg (initial value: -5)
>  systems/hook/tailhook-pos-max-deg (initial value: 50)
>  systems/hook/tailhook-offset-x-in (initial value: 210.17)
>  systems/hook/tailhook-offset-y-in (initial value: 0)
>  systems/hook/tailhook-offset-z-in (initial value: -31.57)
>
>Channel Hook
>
>
>
> --
> Gérard
>
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[Flightgear-devel] Constant property in a JSBSim model

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
I have a JSBSim aircraft model in which, at the beginning of the
flight_control block, I defined a constant property as follows:

fcs/KSelev

I need this constant to factor a number of coefficients in the aerodynamics
section.

Although this seems to work in standalone JSBSim simulations, in FlightGear
this property gets the value of 0.0.

What is the correct way of defining a constant? (seems a very stupid
question, so I accept similar kind of answers :)   )

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download

[Fabian Grodek]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Martin Spott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> "Fabian Grodek" wrote:
>
> > I've been trying to download scenery from flightgear.org since yesterday
> > without success. Is there any problem with the server?
>
> If you're familiar with FlightGear CVS, then you might want to build
> the new 'terrasync' tool and download your Scenery from the pre-defined
> SVN service.
>
> Cheers,
>Martin.
> --
>


Well, I'm not really familiar with FlighGear CVS, but I think I'll get into
that soon. I see it's well worth.
Thank you.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery download

[Fabian Grodek]

On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Ron Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> The main scenery server is often too busy and won't talk to anyone else.
> Try a mirror, like this one:
> http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/flightgear/ftp/Scenery-1.0.1/
>
>
> Ron
>
Thank you Ron, the link is talking to me !
Fabian
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[Flightgear-devel] Scenery download

[Fabian Grodek]

I've been trying to download scenery from flightgear.org since yesterday
without success. Is there any problem with the server?
With the aircraft there is no problem.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes

[Fabian Grodek]

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 11:54 PM, Erik Hofman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >
> > I also see that (I'm only looking at the speedbrakes effects).
> > Two things are unclear for me:
> > 1. The values of alpha in f16.xml are exactly half those in NASA's
> > TP1538 report.
> > 2. The values of the coefficients are close to each other, but not
> > exactly the same.
> >
> > For CmDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 58 (PDF page 64)
> > For CLDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 65 (PDF page 71)
>
> Off course you need to transform the data from body axes to wind axes
> first..
>
> Erik
>
>
Sorry I've mixed the page numbers on TP1538 paper in my former message.
Erik,
1. Transformation from body to wind axes would modify the coefficient values
much more than the differences I see; moreover, I see difefrences even at
alpha=0 (for CmDsb, -0.0036 in f16.xml instead of -0.0038 in TP1538).
2. The alpha values are still HALF those on TP1538.

No matters what our conclusion will be on these issues, I really value the
great job you've done in this model, making it a great source for learning
JSBSim. Thanks.

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes

[Fabian Grodek]

On 9/4/08, Alex Romosan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Erik Hofman writes:
>
> > Alex Romosan wrote:
> >> can you give me a pointer as to where i could get this data? thanks.
> >>
> > Search for NASA Technical Paper 1538
>
> i've been looking at it but i can't figure out the relationship
> between the number in the report and the numbers in the flightgear
> model. if somebody could explain the "magic" involved i would really
> appreciate it. thanks.
>
> --alex--


I also see that (I'm only looking at the speedbrakes effects).
Two things are unclear for me:
1. The values of alpha in f16.xml are exactly half those in NASA's TP1538
report.
2. The values of the coefficients are close to each other, but not exactly
the same.

For CmDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 58 (PDF page 64)
For CLDsb I'm looking on TP1538 page 65 (PDF page 71)

Ron?

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes

[Fabian Grodek]

On 8/30/08, Erik Hofman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > ... But I don't see any pitching moment effect; from
> > what I see in NASA TP 1538  I
> > understand there is a pitch-down effect from the speedbrakes.
> >
> It looks like you don't have the latest version of the configuration
> file, it's defined under CmDsb


I see. The current f16.xml version in JSBSim repository is 1.82, which
indeed has the CmDsb effect.
Nevertheless, the current f16.xml version in FlighGear is 1.44, which does
not contain the CmDsb component. Since this is a FlightGear mailing list, I
was looking only at the file on FG repository.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] f16 speedbrakes

[Fabian Grodek]

On 8/29/08, Erik Hofman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> What happens (with regard to the fly-by-wire system) is this:
>
> Speedbrake deflection causes a pitching moment which the FCS
> automatically compensates because there is no pitching moment requested
> by the pilot.
>
> Erik


Erik,
In the F16 aero config file I see there's indeed an increase in lift for
certain speedbrakes deflection, accompanied by the expected huge increase in
drag. But I don't see any pitching moment effect; from what I see in NASA TP
1538  I understand there is a pitch-down
effect from the speedbrakes.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tutorial: adding "Ambient Occlusion" layer to aircraft textures

[Fabian Grodek]

On 8/12/08, Anders Gidenstam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008, Fabian Grodek wrote:
>
> > Very interesting and instructive. Thank you for that, really.
> > But now that I know how to make that nice effect, I'd like to be able to
> > create the aircraft model first! I'm still quite far from that stage of
> > aircraft modelling. Is there any newbies tutorial on how to build a
> simple
> > aircraft from scratch in Blender?
> > Fabian
>
> There is a very good one in French by Emmanuel Baranger:
>
> http://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/Creation/Creation-fr.htm
>
> An (auto? :) translation to English:
> http://helijah.free.fr/flightgear/Creation/Creation-en.htm
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anders


Thank you! It looks very instructive too. I'll try that.
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Tutorial: adding "Ambient Occlusion" layer to aircraft textures

[Fabian Grodek]

On 8/11/08, Melchior FRANZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just wrote this tutorial. Maybe some modelers have use for it:
>
>
> http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php/Howto:_Add_smooth_(%22Ambient_Occlusion%22)_shadows_in_Blender
>
> Note that it's not linked to from the Developer Portal ... for the
> simple reason that I couldn't manage to do it. Would be nice if a
> wiki expert can link it in.  :-)
>
> m.


Very interesting and instructive. Thank you for that, really.
But now that I know how to make that nice effect, I'd like to be able to
create the aircraft model first! I'm still quite far from that stage of
aircraft modelling. Is there any newbies tutorial on how to build a simple
aircraft from scratch in Blender?
Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: AN2 in real life at Klaipeda/Lithuania

[Fabian Grodek]

Unusual sight! Very nice. Thanks for sharing!
Fabian


On 7/25/08, Torsten Dreyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi
> Here comes one more summer goodie for pleasure.
>
> I just flew into Klaipeda airfield (EYKL) where I found a precious line up
> of
> Antonov 2 aircraft. Once again, I only had my mobile phone with me to take
> some pictures but I think they are worth sharing with you.
> http://www.t3r.de/flightpics/klaipeda/
>
> See the airport on Google Maps here:
> http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=55.71,21.242778&spn=0.02,0.02
>
> Enjoy, Torsten
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] [OT] How can I start up in air?

[Fabian Grodek]

On 6/13/08, Holger Wirtz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> sorry, this is perhaps a little bit off topic but I haven't found any
> answers the last days:
>
> How can I start up at a specific position in air?
> I found some hints at
> http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php/Starting_in_the_Air but if I use
> the SenecaII I have the problem that the magnetos are off, the nose of
> the plane is turned down to earth and the simulation is in running
> state. I tried the following:
>
> fgfs \
>--altitude=5000 \
>--heading=270 \
>--vc=110 \
>--vor=OAK \
>--offset-distance=5 \
>--offset-azimuth=270 \
>--aircraft=SenecaII-jsbsim \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine/throttle=0.8 \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine/magneto=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine/magneto[0]=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine[0]/magneto=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine[1]/magneto=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine[0]/magneto[0]=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine[1]/magneto[0]=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine[0]/starter=true \
>--prop:/controls/engines/engine[1]/starter=true \
>--enable-freeze \
>--geometry=170x100
>
> I need this for learning landings and ILS approaches towards an airport.
> For this it would be nice when the simulations starts at a well trimmed
> point...
>
> Has anyone an idea how to get this running?
>
> Thanks, Holger



Holger,
There have been some problems with the mailing list during the last days, so
I guess that's why you had no answers.
You should also add:
--in-air
so as the simulation starts with the aircraft trimmed in the air at the
conditions you defined.
I hope this helps.
Fabian
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[Flightgear-devel] Nasal and FGMultiplayMgr errors

[Fabian Grodek]

Hello,
I've built an aerodynamic model (JSBSim) of an aircraft and in order to test
it I took the Honda Jet and changed its native FDM with my model.
When I select my aircraft and try to run it in Flightgear v1.0.0, I get the
following errors:

1) Nasal runtime error: No such member: runways
at glide_slope_tunnel.nas line 96,
called from glide_slope_tunnel.nas line 123,
called from globals.nas, line 79

and then:
2) FGMultiplayMgr::MP_ProcessData: Domain error

and FG halts in a loop.

The first error can be worked around by flying first the original HondaJet
and turning glide slope off, but I would like to understand why is this
happening.

The main difference between both aero models is that in my model the PITCH
axis consist of a wing-body-vertical-tail + isolated horizontal tail
contributions, while the native HondaJet model has a
wing-body-vertical-horizontal block. In my FCS I put the
fcs/pitch-trim-cmd-norm input in the stabilizer aerosurface (which I defined
at the beginning of the FCS block).

The original HondaJet run and flies nicelly from the same airport.
Any hint on what could be wrong?

Thank you.
Fabian

PS: The HondaJet model is a really good work of Tatsuhiro Nishioka (FDM) and
Emmanuel BARANGER. I recommend flying it!
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] LH A320 near crash during crosswind and heavy gust

[Fabian Grodek]

On 3/3/08, Arnt Karlsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 00:18:15 +0100, Georg wrote in message
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Heiko Schulz schrieb:
> > > Here is a pic of the incident:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887&filename=phpOltUWB.jpg
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > HHS
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Thank you.
> > This is clear proof how much chance had a hand in this - beside
> > pilot's skills.
> > Georg
>
> ..aye.  Which main leg trips the lift dumpers on the A320?


Nice picture!
This incident is a clear example of rolling moment due to beta, AKA
"dihedral effect".
In the video (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185) it can be seen
that the trouble started when the pilot decrabbed the aircraft to align it
to the runway, after being flying into the wind. This decrab puts the
aircraft in a sideslip (airflow comming from the side, in this case from the
right side). Due to the wing diehdral and (I think) due to the sweep back,
this creates a rolling moment to the left. Normally, the ailerons and roll
spoilers should allow to counter-act this, but in the picture (
http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887&filename=phpOltUWB.jpg) I
see those controls are only partially deflected. Strange.

Fabian
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Aircraft downloads page update

[Fabian Grodek]

The download page contains other aircrafts with no 3D models:
1. F-15 (NOT F-15C)
2. Marchetti
3. X-24B
4. Shuttle
Their FDM are present.
I particularly like to have the FDM of these aircraft available, but, at
least for the JSBSim models (X24B and Shuttle), they can be (and indeed
are) are available from JSBSim CVS, which is a natural place to look for
them.
This would probably be a new discussion: whether to include or not aircraft
without 3D models in the aircraft download page. I vote for NO.

Fabian

On 12/17/07, Maik Justus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Curt,
>
> could you please delete the as350 and the bell206 from the download
> page? Both have no 3D-model and a very poor FDM.
>
> The hornet and the fk9mk2 are done by Emmanuel Baranger (3D) and me (FDM).
>
> Melchior: Whats about changing the bo105 status from beta to production?
>
> Best regards,
> Maik
>
> Curtis Olson schrieb am 17.12.2007 21:25:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have updated the aircraft downloads page with all the lastest
> > versions of the available (CVS) aircraft.  Many of the new ones do not
> > have a thumbnail image for the web page, and a few of them have been
> > copied from other aircraft and are incorrect.  It would be great if
> > people could grab a quick preview image and submit/commit it for the
> > aircraft that don't yet have one.
> >
> > http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Curt.
> > --
> > Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
> > 
> > Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
> > 
> >
> >
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Aircraft selection summary

[Fabian Grodek]

In general I agree with Durk.
The only issue is that if we drop the Citation we would end-up with no
bussiness jet class aircraft, which are high performance machines (compared
to props), easier to fly than an airliner (787), and with its
own limitations (as compared to fighters - F16). Also a Very Light Jet would
be popular nowadays, but I guess there is still no simulation model
available yet.
Fabian

On 12/6/07, Durk Talsma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I wasn't able to jump in yesterday, but I've been following the aircraft
> selection disscussion closely. Below is a first attempt at compiling a new
> list based on the various suggestion made by everybody, and weighted by me
> based on my general impression of consensus.
>
> 737-300 -> 787
>
> I think Jon Berndt suggested keeping the 737, but a few people suggested
> replacing it by the 787, which seems to be our most complete jetliner. I
> like
> to follow that suggestion.
>
> A-10
>
> As far as I can see, nobody suggested replacing this aircraft. So I guess
> we
> keep it.
>
> bf109 -> A6M2 (Zero)
> Suggested by Melchior, for ease of operations use. I think this is a good
> point. The release will be the first FlightGear hands-on experience for
> many
> people and we want to make sure that that first experience is as positive
> as
> possible by providing aircraft that have reasonably easy handling
> characteristics. Not including the bf109 for that reason is by no means a
> quality judgment of the aircraft itself.
>
> bo105
> c172
> c172p
>
> Everybody seems to agree we keep these ones.
>
> c310 -> SenecaII
> c310u3a -> Beaver
>
> I haven't been able to check whether the c310 and c310u3a are really two
> separate aircraft, or just two different directories with shared
> components.
> Anyhow, we unanimously agree that the c310 should be replaced by the
> Seneca.
> The suggested replacement above seems to satisfy a few additional requests
> to
> have the Beaver included as well.
>
> Citation-Bravo -> B1900D
>
> This seems a reasonable replacement, in particular since the author of the
> Citation has indicated preferring that is is not part of the base aircraft
> selection. One minor concern is the ease-of-use issue. IIRC, the B1900D is
> fired up in "cold" configuration, and has quite a complicated start-up
> procedure (things may have changed since I last checked). Complex
> procedures
> like these may intimidate first time users.
>
> f16 -> Lightning
>
> Melchior reported that the f16 is broken. I haven't been able to test
> recently, but seem to recall similar problems about a year ago. Jon Berndt
> reported finding a possible cause, so chances are the reported problems
> might
> get fixed in time. Still, I would like to replace the F16 for other
> reasons:
> We need at least an AAR ready aircraft in the base package, and a carrier
> ready aircraft (these are two very prominent new AI features in this
> release
> that we want to showcase). So, how about replacing the f16 with the
> Ligntning
> (for AAR scenarios)?
>
> j3cub
>
> A few people have a suggested dropping the cub, but given its various
> qualities, I'd like to keep it.
>
> Hunter -> SeaHawk
>
> As a few people suggested, we probably need a carrier ready aircraft, and
> the
> seahawk is advertised by the wiki carrier HOWTO as the easiest to master
> (and
> I can confirm that its doable. :-) ).
>
> p51d -> ()
>
> We already have one other WWII fighter. Do we really want to have two, or
> do
> we want to have some other category of aircraft represented?
>
> pa28-161 -> pa24-250
>
> A few people have suggested replacing the pa28-161 with the pa24-250. I
> haven't tried any of those recently, but would be open to the suggestion.
>
> Rascal -> Bochian (or another glider)
>
> Many people have suggested dropping the Rascal, for being too specific,
> and
> suggested we add a glider.
>
> T38 -> Concorde ()
>
> Even though the T38 is probably a category of its own, my general
> impression
> is that the broader class this aircraft belongs to (let's say: small
> high-powered jet powered and highy manouvreable) is a bit overrepresented
> (with the A10, [f16/lightning], and [Hunter/SeaHawk] being present.
>
> Gerard Robin suggested adding the concorde, and there are some aspects of
> this
> proposal I like, asit is an altogether different category. However, when
> trying the condorde yesterday, I saw some performance issues (need to
> check
> again), and also found the 3D cockpit instruments to be a bit
> cartoonesque.
> This is probably a good candidate for future inclusion, but not quite
> there
> yet.
>
> ufo
>
> Keep as a general exploration tool. Its fun as such. I think everybody
> agrees. :-)
>
> wrightFlyer1903 -> Osprey/ DragonFly/maybe another historic aircraft.
>
> Most people suggested dropping the wright flyer. A few people suggested
> adding
> an ultralight. it would be nice to have a historic aircraft (as in a
> really
> old one). During the version number discussion, somebody su

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Seneca II tutorials - Torsten

[Fabian Grodek]

Where can I find the tutorial?
Fabian


On 12/1/07, Georg Vollnhals <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Torsten,
>
> very nice you created a lot of tutorials which really increases the
> value of your Seneca II as more and more interested people can learn
> "how to do it right".
>
> I just want to inform you that I recognized a technical problem with
> your engine-start(???) tutorial. It is asked to put the mixture and
> propeller levers at max. position (and I think the throttle, too). I use
> two knobs (axis) on my Saitek X45 joystick for propeller rpm and mixture
> and although the stick is calibrated the tutorial does not recognize
> these MAX positions. If I use the assigned keyboard-keys to "assist" to
> get the wished value all is ok and the tutorial proceeds.
> Visually the levers are at their maximal position (upwards)after using
> the joystick knobs and do not move further when I press the keys but
> somehow it seems that the used joystick axis (knobs at the joystick) do
> not indicate the asked maximal value to the tutorial.
> As I think that this might not only be a local problem here I would
> suggest that the tutorial should be a little more tolerant and uses a
> little reduced "maximal" value to fit the variations of different
> controller systems.
>
> Just an idea to think about.
> Regards
> Georg EDDW
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] FG-to-Matlab/Simulink transmission

[Fabian Grodek]

Jon,
Yes, I am running on Windows, so I would appreciate it very much if
you can send to me that stripchart application. I would like to try
that.

Anyway, I am willing to try the Windows app you mentioned also, so I
would have the chance to choose the most suitable option. (indeed, I
am not too much familiar with Simulink).



On 8/16/07, Jon S. Berndt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > My idea is to define an aircraft using JSBSim FDM and fly it in
> > FlightGear, while having the output data plotted (realtime) in Matlab.
> > Asking too much?
>
> Fabian:
>
> If you are running on Windows, I could possibly send you a stripchart
> application that I wrote, which accepts data from JSBSim over a socket.
> Matlab/Simulink is a good approach, but if you can't get any satisfaction
> from that route, and want to try a Windows app, let me know and I'll see
> what I can do about getting that to you. It's not open source, but I can
> make it available.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] FG-to-Matlab/Simulink transmission

[Fabian Grodek]

I've read some correspondence about this in FlightGear forums but I
have not found any clear answer:
What's the best way to send data (velocities, aero parameters, forces,
moments, aircraft position) to Matlab/Simulink in realtime?

My idea is to define an aircraft using JSBSim FDM and fly it in
FlightGear, while having the output data plotted (realtime) in Matlab.
Asking too much?

I know Simulink's Aerospace Blokset has only a "...unidirectional
transmission link from Simulink to FlightGear using FlightGear's
published net_fdm binary data exchange protocol." (from Simulink help
files), but I want transmission in the oposite direction (FG to
Matlab).

Fabian

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions

[Fabian Grodek]

>
> > I would need:
> > CLtail = f(alpha_tail, delta_elevator)
> >
> > where alpha_tail = alpha_aircraft + horizontal_stab_angle - Epsilon
>
>
> src/jsbsim --aircraft=c172x --catalog
>
> The --catalog option will give you a list of all the properties that JSBSim
> defines and knows about. That is separate from FlightGear-specific
> properties that are part of the *interface* between FlightGear and JSBSim.
> JSBSim does have its own elevator deflection property. I don't understand
> the issue with the 747 model, and (unfortunately) I don't have time to look
> into it at the moment.
>
> Jon
>

I am not talking about the elevator property, but about the horizontal
stabilizer (HS)property, which seems to be missing in JSBSim. In most
airliners and bussiness jets there is an all-moving HS, together with
the elevator (and maybe also a trim-tab). Then I would need to refer
to the HS current deflection (which the pilot changes in order to trim
the aircraft pitching moment) in order to calculate the tail angle of
attack : alpha_ac + HS - Epsilon.

Here is the relevant part of the 747.xml as defined in the aircraft
subdirectory that ships with JSBSim package.
1. Note that:  Lift_due_to_stabilizer_deflection
2. But: fcs/speedbrake-pos-rad
3. My question is: why it uses "speedbrake"?


1. See here --->  Lift_due_to_stabilizer_deflection

aero/qbar-psf
metrics/Sw-sqft
2. and here ---> fcs/speedbrake-pos-rad
  
  velocities/mach
  
  0.0.8190
  0.20000.7850
  0.65000.7390
  0.90000.8590
  
  




Fabian

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions

[Fabian Grodek]

>
> No assumptions are made for the horizontal stabilizer, whether it is
> all-moving, or is fixed with a movable surface. There is only a deflection
> associated with the surface, and that is used to index into an aero table. I
> am not quite sure what you need, or what you are referring to here. Using
> properties, one could define just about anything they want to. Can you be
> more descriptive about exactly what you want?

I would need:
CLtail = f(alpha_tail, delta_elevator)

where alpha_tail = alpha_aircraft + horizontal_stab_angle - Epsilon

Some time ago I've been told that this can be done using the
speedbrake property (indeed this is the way it is done in the 747
example) as if it were the stabilizer (only a matter of names); that's
OK, but I only wonder whay there is no stabilizer property, or is it?
I hope this time I was more descriptive.
Thanks.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions

[Fabian Grodek]

>
> We could probably use the existing code to do that interpolation between two
> or more tables. It would just be really ugly. In the case of DATOM+ output,
> I'd have to generate that ugly code automatically.

Well, it may be ugly and inaccurate, but for some cases the phisics
could probably be quite close to a linear interpolation. Other than
this, if we are not concerned with the transition between flaps,there
is no problem with having many 2-D tables.


>
> > What is needed is just the
> > thrust effect, without having to worry about flaps or slats.
>
> I don't think that we can do that. Think about the twin-prop aircraft, flaps
> down versus flaps up, idle power versus full power. Prop blast (and epsilon)
> on the tail is going to be different for those case.

Well, I was thinking of a citation type aircraft, where the airflow
arriving at the tail may have been affected by the flaps, slats, etc.,
but how much it is deflected now
by the "jet" at the tail can be taken independently. But even for a
twin prop, it may be possible to take a similar approach: to evaluate
how much the prop blast deflects the downwash, relative to the
no-thrust case. The only issue may be that with full flaps down, the
prop blast may be different than with flaps up (due to the flaps
obstruction), and then, the thrust effect delta would be a number of
2-D tables:
dEps_Thrust (flaps 0) = f (alpha, thrust coeff)
dEps_Thrust (flaps 20) = f (alpha, thrust coeff)

Fabian

p.s.: where do they pay by the word? :)

> Bill
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions

[Fabian Grodek]

See my comment after quotation...

> 2. I think what you are saying is:
>
>epsilon = f( alpha, flap, slat )
>
> I don't think that you were advocating using two 2-D table
>
>epsilon(slat=0)  = f ( alpha, flap )
>epsilon(slat=20) = f ( alpha, flap )
>
> If you were, there would have to be an interpolation done between these two
> tables in order to get the effects during transitions. Yes, that is
> important, because the dynamics of the aircraft during a surface change like
> that is examined by the FAA during qualification. I'm just guessing that we
> could cobble something together in the existing JSBSim structure to do an
> interpolation between these two tables.
>

Indeed, I was talking about two  2-D tables, "wrongly" guessing that
JSBSim would interpolate the data in case, let's say, the current slat
position is not any of the specific slat for which the tables are
defined. Such an interpolation would be quite accurate, being better
the more 2-D tables we define. This would be a very useful feature,
and although I am not a programmer, I guess (hopefully right this
time...) that it wouldn't be hard to implement (Jon?).
You are right with the failure cases of the flaps/slats logics; that
complicate things, but maybe interpolations could still help.

> Now, if you add in thrust effects, you end up with:
>
>epsilon = f( alpha, flap, slat, thrust )
>
> We are now at a 4-D table.

In this example, the thrust effects on downwash could be evaluated in
DATCOM+ for a clean configuration, once with zero thrust, then with an
array of thrust coefficients, and finally calculating the difference
relative to the zero thrust downwash. A table of delta_epsilon vs.
Thrust_coeff could then be built. What is needed is just the thrust
effect, without having to worry about flaps or slats. This difference
in Epsilon should be added to the overall epsilon. I understand this
can be done in JSBSim by using "Functions" (although I am still not
sure I already know how to do it); is that right?

Jon, if you are still here...regarding the horizontal
stabilizer property I was indeed talking about JSBSim. I know there is
a property for elevator deflection, but in many cases also the
stabilizer moves to different angles for trimming the aircraft.

Well, meanwhile I see there are two new replies in this thread, I hope
my long story is still relevant... :)

Fabian





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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions

[Fabian Grodek]

First, thank you all for the direct answers to my question.

Now, regarding the 737 sample case, it should be checked which
flaps-slats combinations are normally possible; it may be the case
where let's say flaps 20 cannot come with retracted slats (if there is
a problem with the slats deployment you are allowed to use only flaps
0).

Regarding the tables with infinite numbers of dimensions; I do not
understand why this should be needed. The buildup concept used in
JSBSim lets you specify delta of each coefficient for every
aerodynamic surface (flaps, elevator, stabilizer, etc.) independently;
JSBSim adds all that together. For the downwash, DATCOM could be
executed first for the clean configuration, obtain Epsilon vs. alpha,
then for certain airfoil representing one slat-flap combination,
obtain the new Epsilon vs. alpha, and finally we can build a 2D table
for deltaEpsilon vs. alpha vs. flaps. If the slat is another input,
then 3D tables (with tableData breakpoints) are already applicable in
JSBSim. We can then have one 2D table for slats 0, then another for
slats 20, etc. The elevator sweeps could be done with flaps up, and
then, this elevator effects included as another contribution in the
aero buildup.
One important issue in generating the independent contribution of each
aero surface is that sometimes there are interferences between them;
this can be significant for example between flaps and airbrakes.

Finally, one short question: why there is no dedicated horizontal
stabilizer property available in JSBSim, and we need to use for this
the speedbrake property? Just curious...

Fabian

> A couple problems that I've been addressing lately is that Datcom doesn't
> produce downwash angles when you drop flaps. Also, the elevator sweeps are a
> function of free-stream angle of attack (i.e., AOA at the wing, not the
> elevator). Another important omission from Datcom is that you can't drop
> flaps then do elevator sweeps.
>
> To me, these are important factors, since most of the crashes happen near
> the ground, when you have flaps and gear down. The FAA testing is heavy on
> near-ground performance, because that is where you get into the most
> trouble, such as losing an engine during take-off or landing.
>
> One approach that I've been considering is to calculate what the airfoil
> looks like when you lower the flaps, and input THAT as the airfoil, then do
> all of the normal calculations. For something like a 737 where you have
> leading and trailing edge flaps, you could easily get into 20 cases, with
> each case generating all of the coefficient tables (Cd, CL, CM, etc.). For a
> twin-prop aircraft, you just have trailing edge flaps, but you really need
> to run power effects at each flap setting, and you really should split the
> aircraft in half, since you could be flying on one engine. Engine thrust
> should be run at several settings, such as off, idle, cruise, and max, as a
> minimum. Interpolation between those power settings should be fairly
> accurate.
>
> Let me give you a good example. Twin engine prop aircraft, drop the flaps
> fully, you lose the right  engine, and push the left one to max in order to
> climb. On the right side, you just have freestream airflow over the right
> wing, flap, rudder and elevator. On the left side, you have a prop blast
> hitting the wing, part of the flap, left side of the rudder, and most of the
> elevator. Ignoring the engine torque issue, you are going to experience
> different lift (higher on the left side) which creates a rolling moment. You
> will also experience different elevator control effectiveness right versus
> left. Rudder dynamic pressure might actually be different left versus right,
> creating a yawing moment, which is in addition to the thrust different left
> versus right.
>
> Now, is this a little overkill? Maybe, since most trainers that I've seen
> don't go into such details. It is possible to generate data for these cases,
> and I think it would yield higher fidelity trainers than anything seen
> before, simply because that kind of data hasn't been available before. The
> question I'm wrestling with is whether it is worth all the headaches. After
> all, we could end up with 60-80 times more data than what we currently deal
> with now.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
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[Flightgear-devel] Epsilon, alpha_tail and independent tail contributions

[Fabian Grodek]

Curerntly, as far as I understand, JSBSim does not support the buildup of
the aerodynamic characteristics by taking the wing-body alone and adding the
tail contribution. This is essential for example in investigating an
aircraft behaviour during ice contaminated tailplane stall, a "hot" subject
nowadays.

For example, the total pitching moment would be: CM_wing-body + CLtail *
tail_volume.

Of course, the aero model should then need to include the downwash (Epsilon)
at the tail (as a function of alpha, flaps, etc.) and CLtail vs. alpha_tail.



My questions therefore are:

1. Is it possible to introduce Epsilon tables in the aircraft properties
file?

2. Is it possible to have an option to evaluate alpha_tail (alpha_aircraft +
horizontal_stab – Epsilon + dynamic components) whenever an Epsilon table is
present in the properties file? This would be essential to calculate the
tail lift and its contribution to the overall pitching moment.



Regards,

Fabián
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