Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Sunday 18 October 2009 10:41:19 am George Patterson wrote: On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 4:59 PM, syd adams wrote: Yup. Apparently there's no limit to the depths they will sink. But they keep bobbing to the surface. :-/ Speaking of prizes and sweepstakes: Can we nominate this for the most convoluted piece of prose in the Galaxy award? http://flightprosim.net/getting-free-flight-simulators/ Also, check out the independent review site that I got this link from: http://flightprosim.net/ (Not sure whether to close this message with :-) or :-( ) Cheers, Durk -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Yup. Apparently there's no limit to the depths they will sink. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Sunday 18 October 2009 07:19:41 am Tom P wrote: And what about the hyper-deceiving one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NGwlwPcsBQ An advertisement for Flight Pro Sim, which is based on the freely-available and open source FlightGear, using a video of Microsoft FlightSim X !! Tom Heiko Schulz wrote: Hi@ all, New copyright violations regadring FlightProSim... Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDTYPSW_P3wfeature=related This is my video, he used it without permission. He user other videos which seems to be stolen Mail to Youtube is under way... I'm angry! Hmm, yes, as you may have read in a previous post, I've been giving these guys the benefit of my doubts, but these two video's certainly don't bias my impression in a positive way. I will certainly investigate the possibility of writing http://www.flightgear.org; onto the splash screens in such a way that it will be relatively hard to remove cheers, Durk -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Just for your information: most of their screenshots were stolen from YouTube videos as well... I've just emailed FPS's host, asking to remove the images that are mine (and also those from flightgear.org and others from YouTube), as the guy himself didn't respond to my earlier personal request. Regards, Gijs Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:27:48 + From: aeitsch...@yahoo.de To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Hi@ all, New copyright violations regadring FlightProSim... Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDTYPSW_P3wfeature=related This is my video, he used it without permission. He user other videos which seems to be stolen Mail to Youtube is under way... I'm angry! HHs _ 25GB gratis online harde schijf http://skydrive.live.com-- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 4:59 PM, syd adams wrote: Yup. Apparently there's no limit to the depths they will sink. But they keep bobbing to the surface. :-/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hi@ all, New copyright violations regadring FlightProSim... Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDTYPSW_P3wfeature=related This is my video, he used it without permission. He user other videos which seems to be stolen Mail to Youtube is under way... I'm angry! HHs -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
And what about the hyper-deceiving one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NGwlwPcsBQ An advertisement for Flight Pro Sim, which is based on the freely-available and open source FlightGear, using a video of Microsoft FlightSim X !! Tom Heiko Schulz wrote: Hi@ all, New copyright violations regadring FlightProSim... Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDTYPSW_P3wfeature=related This is my video, he used it without permission. He user other videos which seems to be stolen Mail to Youtube is under way... I'm angry! HHs -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hi Heiko, On Tuesday 06 October 2009 08:16:11 am Heiko Schulz wrote: That's one the best article I found about ProFlightSim: http://ezinearticles.com/?Flight-Pro-Sim-is-the-Best-Simulatorid=2813712 Interesting, I actually decided to leave a comment behind, in response to this article, explaining that Flight Pro Sim is actually a repackaged version of FlightGear and that, while this is legal, we were actually hoping that our communication with the Flight Pro Sim team would be more open and less secretive on their part. I also stated being quite flattered by their praise regarding the accurate position of sun, moon, stars, and planets (since that was originally my code, except for the stars), :-). I think it turned out to be a relatively positive comment, and I'm really surprised that it still isn't posted there yet. All comments are moderated In actual fact, the above comment is quite the way I feel about this; I have no problem with somebody repackaging, re-branding and selling FlightGear, as long as the GPL is honored. Mainly, as long as the GPL is honored, I'm not too concerned about somebody making huge loads of cash behind our backs. Just to put it in perspective. I'm sometimes amazed at FlightGear's popularity. Yet the commercial re-branded versions are still extremely obscure. So, the majority will much sooner be drawn toward us than toward a competitor, and if a few copies are sold, the people buying them are completely free to distribute their copy, and eventually may find out about FlightGear itself. So, if the number of sales of a slightly improved FlightGear remains limited, I wouldn't have too many problems with that. Simply because the nature of the license and our popularity would correct the situation rather quickly. Basically, I'm assuming that you would have to live on another planet to get interested in Flight Simulation, buy Flight Pro Sim, and not eventually stumble upon one web page or another referring to FlightGear, or making the connection between FlightGear and Flight Pro Sim. IF, on the other hand, the GPL license would not be honored than it wouldn't matter with license we choose because the perpetrator wouldn't care anyhow. So, in essence, I believe that in our current situation the GPL is still our best option, guaranteeing our basic freedom. My impression is that the person/people behind the Flight Pro Sim product are reasonably genuine in what they are doing, but that they have chosen a business model that is rather unfortunate; not only for us, but also something that would hurt themselves in the long run. This might not not necessarily be deliberate, but might be something borne out of inexperience. Since it isn't clear from their website that their product is an adaptation of FlightGear, imagine the disappointment of a buyer who as just found out. Now, in contrast, consider that I would be interested in a product called FlightGear Pro, from a reseller who clearly mentions up front that this program is a commercial adaptation of FlightGear, but with the added bonus of having a nice shell around it connecting all the loose bells and whistles in addition to having a knowledgeable help desk. Now somebody knowingly buying a program like that would never be disappointed due to the link between the free open source FlightGear program, and the commercially repackaged FlightGear-pro. And, likewise, I don't think that any of us developers would have a problem with a commercial distribution that is adding so many bells and whistles and service to the program Cheers, Durk -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On 10/06/2009 03:14 PM, Curtis Olson wrote: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Tim Moore timo...@redhat.com mailto:timo...@redhat.com wrote: 3D panel does not mean that you need a 3D view of the cockpit to see the instruments. I guess I've never seen an example of anyone configuring an orthographic view in FlightGear, but I'm sure it's doable. Do we have configuration level support for this, or would it be a coding exercise? The other It's supported by the camera configuration code that also implements multiple cameras. There is some additional coding to make this fully practical for cockpit panels: an orthographic view is still a view of the entire scene. You can set the far clipping plane to avoid rendering the whole outside world, but that is still forcing the OSG culling code to do a lot of work. If there is a way to tag 3d geometry that is part of a panel, then it will be very easy to render only that geometry in the view. part is that the designer would need to carefully align the panel surface orthogonal to the view direction to assure there is no warping of the panel relative to the view plane, again, should be a relatively simple task, but would need to be done and need to be thought about. So it's definitely a solvable problem, but there are several extra steps, and I haven't seen an example to work from within FlightGear. And generally, if it's never been done before, the first person blazing the path will typically run into some unexpected surprises. True enough. Tim Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Monday 05 October 2009 22:34:01 Thomas Betka wrote: I really didn't hear many people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D! We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible to achieve it with 3D instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and more flexible. You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots. AJ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hi, To answer Jon S. Berndt here I like the idea of a competetion and I'm sure everyone else here too. Even there is only a TShirt to win... But I don't like when this competetion is made by a man who apparently try earn money with others work! If he would just say hey, this is Flightgear and I did some improvements- but he renamed it, and nothing on the named Homepage makes clear what's really inside. This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on the main page of their web site, there is this: This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project. Further information available in our Developers Area I wonder what would happen if I take JSBSim, rename it to HHSim, sell this and count me to the HHSim-Developer-Team using pics stolen from other userHow would the JSBSim-developers react? Trust me, I was the first one to write to this guy personally and ask him the same questions. I pointed out that if one is selling a commercial product, that company names (Boeing, in particular, but the others too) could not be used; that copyrighted pictures from the FlightGear web site could not be used, and that it was in very poor taste not to mention that this was FlightGear and mention those who worked so hard to put this together. There's also nothing stopping anyone from making a web page (or mentioning on the FlightGear main page) that some people are selling what you can download for free right there at flightgear.org. There's also nothing stopping the FlightGear team from packaging up a commercial package and selling it, is there? The question is, is FlightProSim a legal product? I suspect it is. I do think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would rather see someone come out and say plainly up front that the product IS FlightGear, and that it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added value in some way and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair cost and donating some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web site (or some other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear developers have donated their time for so long). Wishful thinking Jon -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote: On Monday 05 October 2009 22:34:01 Thomas Betka wrote: I really didn't hear many people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D! We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible to achieve it with 3D instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and more flexible. You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots. How about precise orthogonal placement and sizing of the instruments on the screen down to pixel level fine tuning so that you can draw them exactly in the right place to show through a panel cutout? http://www.atcflightsim.com/products/820/Link/810M_001.html With 3d instruments you have an infinite variety of head positions relative to instrument positions, etc. With a 2d panel you can adjust a number in the placement xml file and reload the panel on the fly. You can even do that over an ssh connection with remote eyes giving feedback over the phone. I actually don't see how the additional layer of complexity involved with passing all the geometry through an extra transform, combined with requiring the use of a 3d modeling tool makes 3d panels easier to use, easier to develop, and visually more precise than 2d panels. (There could be a discussion of capability differences, but so far the 2d panels have had all the capability I've needed for my own projects.) Best regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote: We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible to achieve it with 3D instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and more flexible. You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots. AJ Yes, now there you go AJ...typical response that makes some folks on this developer's list so much fun to work with. I am sorry that you feel I've apparently dismissed you as an uncomprehending idiot. Are you? I've never heard that, and certainly did not and *would not* make that assumption. But were you in the IRC channels so many times when I was asking about reconfiguring a panel, only to have to answer question after question as to why I was wasting my time making a 2D panel? Hey, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But as for a 3D cockpit, I don't believe that the FAA is going to approve a product that requires the pilot (user) to have to pan around the cockpit (or a panel) using a mouse, while in the act of simulated flight. Are you flying an aircraft, or using a mouse? So suboptimal or not, as far as I (and several industry folks I know) can tell, that's what the FAA will approve; certainly not for a PC-based Advanced Aircraft Training Device. Oh, by the way: ...it would be easier, quicker and more flexible? LOL! Now who is dismissing whom as an uncomprehending idiot? TB -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On 10/06/2009 01:51 PM, Curtis Olson wrote: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote: On Monday 05 October 2009 22:34:01 Thomas Betka wrote: I really didn't hear many people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D! We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible to achieve it with 3D instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and more flexible. You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots. How about precise orthogonal placement and sizing of the instruments on the screen down to pixel level fine tuning so that you can draw them exactly in the right place to show through a panel cutout? http://www.atcflightsim.com/products/820/Link/810M_001.html With 3d instruments you have an infinite variety of head positions relative to instrument positions, etc. That depends on the camera. You can certainly specify an orthographic camera that has a fixed view of the instruments... With a 2d panel you can adjust a number in the placement xml file and reload the panel on the fly. You can even do that over an ssh connection with remote eyes giving feedback over the phone. ... and supports positioning the instrument in an xml file down to the millimeter level (and beyond). I don't want to oversell the 3D panels as I haven't worked much with 2D or 3D panels and I don't know for sure that 3D panels support everything you want, but the things you mention here are non-issues. Tim I actually don't see how the additional layer of complexity involved with passing all the geometry through an extra transform, combined with requiring the use of a 3d modeling tool makes 3d panels easier to use, easier to develop, and visually more precise than 2d panels. (There could be a discussion of capability differences, but so far the 2d panels have had all the capability I've needed for my own projects.) Best regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On 10/06/2009 02:41 PM, Thomas Betka wrote: On Oct 6, 2009, at 3:19 AM, AJ MacLeod wrote: We understood and understand perfectly what you were trying to achieve, and having plenty of experience in the task knew that it was not only possible to achieve it with 3D instruments, but that it would be easier, quicker and more flexible. You're always welcome to ignore good advice and plod on doing things any sub-optimal way you please... but it's fairly bad manners to dismiss those who give that advice as uncomprehending idiots. AJ Yes, now there you go AJ...typical response that makes some folks on this developer's list so much fun to work with. In fact, AJ is fun to work with; I'm sorry that he's not around much anymore. ... But as for a 3D cockpit, I don't believe that the FAA is going to approve a product that requires the pilot (user) to have to pan around the cockpit (or a panel) using a mouse, while in the act of simulated flight. Are you flying an aircraft, or using a mouse? So suboptimal or not, as far as I (and several industry folks I know) can tell, that's what the FAA will approve; certainly not for a PC-based Advanced Aircraft Training Device. 3D panel does not mean that you need a 3D view of the cockpit to see the instruments. Oh, by the way: ...it would be easier, quicker and more flexible? LOL! Now who is dismissing whom as an uncomprehending idiot? Good question; I must be missing the joke that's causing you to LOL. Tim -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Tim Moore timo...@redhat.com wrote: 3D panel does not mean that you need a 3D view of the cockpit to see the instruments. I guess I've never seen an example of anyone configuring an orthographic view in FlightGear, but I'm sure it's doable. Do we have configuration level support for this, or would it be a coding exercise? The other part is that the designer would need to carefully align the panel surface orthogonal to the view direction to assure there is no warping of the panel relative to the view plane, again, should be a relatively simple task, but would need to be done and need to be thought about. So it's definitely a solvable problem, but there are several extra steps, and I haven't seen an example to work from within FlightGear. And generally, if it's never been done before, the first person blazing the path will typically run into some unexpected surprises. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hello, This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on the main page of their web site, there is this: This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project. Further information available in our Developers Area Link? I didn't found this... I do think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would rather see someone come out and say plainly up front that the product IS FlightGear, and that it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added value in some way and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair cost and donating some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web site (or some other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear developers have donated their time for so long). Wishful thinking Jon Agree -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 15:44 + schrieb Heiko Schulz: Hello, This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on the main page of their web site, there is this: This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project. Further information available in our Developers Area Link? I didn't found this... It is really there, but no sane person would spell FlightGear like this. I do think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would rather see someone come out and say plainly up front that the product IS FlightGear, and that it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added value in some way and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair cost and donating some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web site (or some other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear developers have donated their time for so long). Wishful thinking Jon Agree -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Detlef Faber http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 06:45 -0500 schrieb Jon S. Berndt: Hi, To answer Jon S. Berndt here I like the idea of a competetion and I'm sure everyone else here too. Even there is only a TShirt to win... But I don't like when this competetion is made by a man who apparently try earn money with others work! If he would just say hey, this is Flightgear and I did some improvements- but he renamed it, and nothing on the named Homepage makes clear what's really inside. This has been mentioned several times, but if you look on the main page of their web site, there is this: This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project. Further information available in our Developers Area I wonder what would happen if I take JSBSim, rename it to HHSim, sell this and count me to the HHSim-Developer-Team using pics stolen from other userHow would the JSBSim-developers react? Trust me, I was the first one to write to this guy personally and ask him the same questions. I pointed out that if one is selling a commercial product, that company names (Boeing, in particular, but the others too) could not be used; that copyrighted pictures from the FlightGear web site could not be used, and that it was in very poor taste not to mention that this was FlightGear and mention those who worked so hard to put this together. There's also nothing stopping anyone from making a web page (or mentioning on the FlightGear main page) that some people are selling what you can download for free right there at flightgear.org. The german section of Openoffice.org contains such a warning too. I would really appreciate this. And we could stop the advertising of this product on the FlightGear site. There's also nothing stopping the FlightGear team from packaging up a commercial package and selling it, is there? We're already selling Scenery DVDs. Might be the next step? The question is, is FlightProSim a legal product? I suspect it is. I do think that FlightProSim is a bit slimy, though. I would rather see someone come out and say plainly up front that the product IS FlightGear, and that it CAN be downloaded from [URL], but that they have added value in some way and packaged it for the masses, then offering it at a fair cost and donating some of it to help defray the costs of the FlightGear web site (or some other charity, in the same spirit that FlightGear developers have donated their time for so long). Wishful thinking Jon -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Detlef Faber http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Detlef Faber fa...@sol2500.net wrote: The german section of Openoffice.org contains such a warning too. I would really appreciate this. And we could stop the advertising of this product on the FlightGear site. I can look into it, but I'll say this purely from a humorous/hypothetical perspective: if anyone understands how adsense work, any time one of us clicks on his ad, it costs him money, but google has very sophisticated filters to catch this any many other kinds of abuse so a single person can't do much on that front. I can't bring myself to be this sleazy and it wouldn't reflect positively on the flightgear project (but it's fun to think about) :-) so what if I could add some text that says: if the ad in this box is from xyz.com, click on it as many times as possible, email all your contacts to also click on it, but make sure you don't buy anything. I shouldn't even think things like that, let alone post them ... ! Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Am Dienstag, den 06.10.2009, 13:58 -0500 schrieb Curtis Olson: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Detlef Faber fa...@sol2500.net wrote: The german section of Openoffice.org contains such a warning too. I would really appreciate this. And we could stop the advertising of this product on the FlightGear site. I can look into it, but I'll say this purely from a humorous/hypothetical perspective: if anyone understands how adsense work, any time one of us clicks on his ad, it costs him money, but google has very sophisticated filters to catch this any many other kinds of abuse so a single person can't do much on that front. Adsense offers the option to list websites of competitors that shall not appear on the own site. I can't bring myself to be this sleazy and it wouldn't reflect positively on the flightgear project (but it's fun to think about) :-) so what if I could add some text that says: if the ad in this box is from xyz.com, click on it as many times as possible, email all your contacts to also click on it, but make sure you don't buy anything. I shouldn't even think things like that, let alone post them ... ! This would clearly be a violation of Googles AdSense Rules. But I guess a note to Users of FlightProsim to let them know their rights (e.g to legally give a copy of this product to everyone who might want one) or spread where to get new versions for free would be perfectly legal. Greetings Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Detlef Faber http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Curt Olson:
{...} purely from a humorous/hypothetical perspective: if anyone understands
how adsense work, any time one of us clicks on his ad, it costs him
money, but google has very sophisticated filters to catch this any many
other kinds of abuse so a single person can't do much on that front.
I can't bring myself to be this sleazy and it wouldn't reflect
positively on the flightgear project (but it's fun to think about) :-)
so what if I could add some text that says: if the ad in this box is
from xyz.com,
click on it as many times as possible, email all your contacts to also
click on it, but make sure you don't buy anything. I shouldn't even
think things like that, let alone post them ... !
You shouldn't, but you did, and I probably shouldn't have laughed out loud in
an evil manner, yet I did! :-)
Robert M. Shearman, Jr.
Transit Operations Supervisor,
University of Maryland Department of Transportation
also known as rm...@umd.edu
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
With all due respect FPS, it would be better off if you were to submit any modified code you make back INTO FGFS. adhering to the GPL V2. and for the FG devs, if FG is under the v3, ether switch it to LGPL or the v2, as that way you have some control over your code. I really personally don't like the idea at all of selling FGFS as 99 no 69 no 49 dollars, as it feels to me like profiteering, especially when you won't specify in on your site exactly what you have changed other than changing the wrapper. If you want to regain any respect from people like me, specify EXACTLY what you have changed, and submit any changes you have made (except for the rebranding of course) back in to the FGFS CVS. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
I totally agree with Peter Clemenko, that it would be an error to accept any money from FPS. It is not an fair sponsor and the way the money will be divided will more create a divide between the developers than build it into a team of freely cooperating people. Greetings Arthur On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Peter Clemenko th3fly...@gmail.com wrote: With all due respect FPS, it would be better off if you were to submit any modified code you make back INTO FGFS… adhering to the GPL V2… and for the FG devs, if FG is under the v3, ether switch it to LGPL or the v2, as that way you have some control over your code… I really personally don’t like the idea at all of selling FGFS as 99 no 69 no 49 dollars, as it feels to me like profiteering, especially when you won’t specify in on your site exactly what you have changed other than changing the wrapper… If you want to regain any respect from people like me, specify EXACTLY what you have changed, and submit any changes you have made (except for the rebranding of course) back in to the FGFS CVS… -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- http://www.arthurx.org -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Before you guys have a knee-jerk response that poisons the atmosphere you need to take a deep breath, re-read the statement from FlightProSim, and make some constructive remarks - and it might not hurt to re-read the license under which we operate. First, the most recent email from FlightProSim states: as we can not code in house hopefully our contribution of money will help the project. Second, I'm sure a lot of open source projects would love to have this kind of support. I think it's an idea to be appreciated - don't make it more complicated than it is. It might be a way to appreciate your fellow developers, as well. There are obviously some details to work out, but surely those are minor issues compared to creating FlightGear in the first place, no? Jon From: ArthurX [mailto:arth...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 6:40 AM To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers I totally agree with Peter Clemenko, that it would be an error to accept any money from FPS. It is not an fair sponsor and the way the money will be divided will more create a divide between the developers than build it into a team of freely cooperating people. Greetings Arthur On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Peter Clemenko th3fly...@gmail.com wrote: With all due respect FPS, it would be better off if you were to submit any modified code you make back INTO FGFS. adhering to the GPL V2. and for the FG devs, if FG is under the v3, ether switch it to LGPL or the v2, as that way you have some control over your code. I really personally don't like the idea at all of selling FGFS as 99 no 69 no 49 dollars, as it feels to me like profiteering, especially when you won't specify in on your site exactly what you have changed other than changing the wrapper. If you want to regain any respect from people like me, specify EXACTLY what you have changed, and submit any changes you have made (except for the rebranding of course) back in to the FGFS CVS. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- http://www.arthurx.org -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hi Jon, Before you guys have a knee-jerk response that poisons the atmosphere you need to take a deep breath, re-read the statement from FlightProSim, and make some constructive remarks – and it might not hurt to re-read the license under which we operate. First, the most recent email from FlightProSim states: “as we can not code in house hopefully our contribution of money will help the project.” Second, I’m sure a lot of open source projects would love to have this kind of support. I think it’s an idea to be appreciated – don’t make it more complicated than it is. It might be a way to appreciate your fellow developers, as well. There are obviously some details to work out, but surely those are minor issues compared to creating FlightGear in the first place, no? Jon I really would like to admit your sentences. But - on their website I can't see any reference, hint or link to Project FlightGear. But I see that he earns money with our work. I do know that this allowed under or licence. But is this moral? I do understand that he sells this without any offical reference to FlightGear- if he woulden't no one would buy it beacuse it is donwloadble for free for anyone. I can see other big OpenSource Projects like Blender, which have have this kind of support- without beeing sold. If really both sides wants to win, then we should make a derivative work of FGFS like a FAA-licenced, one which is beeing sold then. That would really help this project to gain some more respect and even a lot of more seriousness to our project. Even now, as Microsoft ESP is stopped and Aerososft is coming with a replacement 2012. Just my thoughts, correct me If I'm wrong with some facts. HHS -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 7:28 AM, Heiko Schulz aeitsch...@yahoo.de wrote: I really would like to admit your sentences. But - on their website I can't see any reference, hint or link to Project FlightGear. But I see that he earns money with our work. I do know that this allowed under or licence. But is this moral? I do understand that he sells this without any offical reference to FlightGear- if he woulden't no one would buy it because it is downloadable for free for anyone. I can see other big OpenSource Projects like Blender, which have have this kind of support- without beeing sold. If really both sides wants to win, then we should make a derivative work of FGFS like a FAA-licenced, one which is beeing sold then. That would really help this project to gain some more respect and even a lot of more seriousness to our project. Even now, as Microsoft ESP is stopped and Aerososft is coming with a replacement 2012. Just my thoughts, correct me If I'm wrong with some facts. There is a PC-ATD certification, but if you read the spec, it requires certain things with control inputs that you cannot achieve with a $20 walmart joystick. We meet most of the spec, but there are a few gaps that go beyond just software. Take a look at http://www.sf.net/projects/fgatd/ However, the PC-ATD certification is very limited in terms of how many hours you can log with it. For more serious pilot / IFR training, the entry level is usually Advanced ATD certification, (or more historically Level 3 FTD certification.) However, these certifications are for the whole simulator, and not just a certification for a software application. In fact, the idea of getting FAA certification for a software application is really misleading because it's not something that they directly do. They certify a whole simulator which includes software, flight dynamics, physical controls (with correct size, placement, and control loading), and often a full enclosure, as well as a visual system. Interesting things that are required for Advanced ATD certification are a GPS and a Flight Director/Autopilot. If you read that X-Plane is FAA certified, they certainly mean that X-Plane was one component in an FAA certified simulator, not that the software itself is FAA certified, however they don't work very hard to make that distinction clear to their users. For the Official Record: FlightGear is also been a key software component in several FAA certified simulators, just like X-Plane. So we can make the same claims that they are able to make (if we want to be misleading.) I've been involved in the FAA certification process and my experience is that if you (a) meet the certification requirements that the FAA lays out (which is doable but a lot of work) and (b) you schedule an FAA inspector to come on sight and verify that you meet the requirements and sign off on it, then you too can have an FAA certified simulator. The inspectors I've dealt with have been very fair and generally look more towards ways to pass you instead of trying to find any little thing they can fail you on. Interestingly, for the Level 3 FTD certification, the FAA requires that each installation be individually certified. Even if you relocate the simulator, you need to have an FAA inspector come out and recertify the sim. It's my understanding that for an Advanced ATD certification (which allows you to log essentially the same things as Level 3 FTD) the FAA certifies a product and then you can replicate it and sell it and the FAA doesn't need to come out and sign off on each one. Fun stuff ... there's nothing here that FlightGear can't already do, it's just a matter of going through a sometimes an intense amount of work to pull all the pieces together and verify and document that the entire simulator as a whole meets all the requirements and there is a lot more to it than just software work. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hi Curtis, If you read that X-Plane is FAA certified, they certainly mean that X-Plane was one component in an FAA certified simulator, not that the software itself is FAA certified, however they don't work very hard to make that distinction clear to their users. To be more clear: Quote from http://www.x-plane.com/pg_levels.html In other words, the copy of X-Plane that can be purchased right here for under $50 has all the features required for FAA certification built in--you just have to buy USB keys (one per computer) to unlockthem all! Please note that using these keys makes X-Plane certifiable by the FAA; it does not automatically confer certified status. The FAA only certifies the combination of the hardware and the software used in a simulator, and users who want to certify their sim must do so through the FAA. Of course you still need some professional controlls, cockpits etc. to be fully FAA-certified at least. So does our last stable version 1.9.1 does have all features needed to be certifiable by the FAA ? Fun stuff ... there's nothing here that FlightGear can't already do, it's just a matter of going through a sometimes an intense amount of work to pull all the pieces together and verify and document that the entire simulator as a whole meets all the requirements and there is a lot more to it than just software work. Really? Let's pull the software pieces together and sell them for a cheaper price than X-Plane... Regards HHS -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Heiko Schulz aeitsch...@yahoo.de wrote: To be more clear: Quote from http://www.x-plane.com/pg_levels.html In other words, the copy of X-Plane that can be purchased right here for under $50 has all the features required for FAA certification built in--you just have to buy USB keys (one per computer) to unlockthem all! Please note that using these keys makes X-Plane certifiable by the FAA; it does not automatically confer certified status. The FAA only certifies the combination of the hardware and the software used in a simulator, and users who want to certify their sim must do so through the FAA. Ok, sounds like they've clarified their web page since I saw it. This sounds reasonably fair, except they don't say what specific FAA certification. I can fill in myself that it's probably Advanced ATD, but it would be helpful if they state that. Of course you still need some professional controlls, cockpits etc. to be fully FAA-certified at least. So does our last stable version 1.9.1 does have all features needed to be certifiable by the FAA ? I think we are pretty close. A GPS might be one outstanding item, but Dave Luff has done a tone of work on a KLN-89 emulator. It may very well be that it is already far enough along to satisfy FAA requirement Advanced ATD requirements, but I don't know for sure yet. I don't believe they require a GPS that is certified for instrument approaches, however, that's something that a lot of people want so it's a good thing to have. Really? Let's pull the software pieces together and sell them for a cheaper price than X-Plane... We we have the pieces, we have the price point. The problem is that building an FAA certifyable simulator is still a *lot* of work!!! That's why it often remains in the domain of for profit businesses because they have access to the resources and funds to engineer and build enclosures, physical flight controls, realistic instrument panels, do motion bases, wrap around visual systems, and pull all the pieces together into a solid, easy to use simulator that can be handed off to a non-technical person to use. That's still a very hard and very time consuming process, even if all the software components are ready to go. Ask anyone who's built a cockpit themselves ... it's a ton of work. But it's a great hobby and if anyone is thinking about trying, it will be a tremendous learning experience for you and if you are successful at many of the tasks that are needed, you will develop real, marketable skills. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
Hi, O.k. there was one misunderstood from my site regarding the pieces... I think we are pretty close. So it is just the GPS? Or still more? Pretty close does not mean in my eyes that we are FAA-certificable yet- But woulden't be that a nice goal to be? I think John Denker did already a big work to it, and if there are really people to have a competition, so that Mr. Taylor can sell his Flight Pro Sim, so to be fully certificable would be a nice goal. Cheers HHS -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Heiko Schulz aeitsch...@yahoo.de wrote: So it is just the GPS? Or still more? As with all things, it's maybe not that simple. We can already plug in a real gps and run with that. I've messed with a Garmin 295 and a Garmin 400 (which means we should be able to support a real G430/530 as well.) So it depends what gps you want and if you don't mind putting in a real one, or if you want a full software emulation, and if you want a software emulation, how far do you have to go? Is it just some basic features we need or do we need to mimic the entire thing down to the boot messages, and correct satellite positions for the date/time? Pretty close does not mean in my eyes that we are FAA-certificable yet- But woulden't be that a nice goal to be? Well again, I can sit here and say anything, but the reality is that no matter how much work we do in advance, when it comes down to putting *your* system together, you'll find things that are missing or not quite the way you want them and you will want to do extra work. A good instructor station is another items that is missing from the open-source world. The instructor station I've worked with in my FAA certification efforts has been a commercial product that talks to flightgear via it's network interfaces. What it boils down to, is that anyone who is going through the actual process to achieve FAA certification, is going to be doing it for business reasons (at some level.) So there's a careful dance that goes on to protect business interests at the same time as participating in and supporting open-source goals. It's easy to chit chat about these things and toss wishful thinking back and forth, but how many people have actually dug in and read the FAA certification specs? The people who have are probably the ones actually pushing forward with a FlightGear based certified simulator product. The reason FlightGear is currently being used as part of FAA certified simulators is that it's easily good enough for that purpose, and has many advantages in terms of openness, adaptability, interfaceability, extensibility, and cost. The reason we haven't pushed for some sort of blanket certification is that so far, the people going through the process have been working for their own business interests, contributing back the open-source changes to be sure, but also not giving away the complete store when they do something separate to achieve the final certification status. Even the lowly PC-ATD certification ... we have a project for that, but how many people have signed up to advance that forward? The people that want to get to FAA certification with FlightGear can do it already, but building an FAA certified simulator is very time consuming and costly and generally a significant distance beyond what a hobbiest would have time or motivation to achieve? What is FAA certification good for? Answer: so that you can log hours in the simulator and save money/time over practicing certain tasks in a real aircraft. It's no where near cost (or time) effective to build your own sim for your own personal training. The only way it makes any kind of financial sense is if you are a school and offering sim time to your students. In that case it's way more effiicent to buy something existing than build it yourself. FAA Certification == ability to sell hours in your sim. FAA certification == lots of cost and effort. There's not a lot of motivation within the hobby community to jump into that world, and if you do jump into that world, you might as well make a few bucks from all your time and effort. I see I'm going in circles here so it's time to stop. :-) Best regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers
The project my company is working on will use FG v1.9.1 (with additions) to seek FAA Certification. But there are several things lacking in the production release--the instructor's station is the main thing. I haven't read the FAA Advisory Circular that governs certification of these things (PC-ATD's) in awhile, but I do not recall seeing a requirement for a GPS. But as I said, they have just changed the requirements, and I am not sure just where that leaves our effort. But for the record, our project is really *not* selling FG; as much as it selling an IFR training platform built on FG. For example, we really only plan on a couple aircraft right now. But we do plan to release scenario-based training content, as this will be the logical representation of the training product. But Curt is right that it takes an enormous amount of work to get this to the point where the FAA will evaluate it, and the software really is just the beginning. However the requirements are indeed published and if you make sure that your product meets or exceed these, then certification is pretty straightforward, as Curt mentioned. I want the developer community to know that, while there is proprietary code involved with bringing our product to the market, there will also be ample code contributed back to the FG development community--although I am not sure how much most users will find useful, quite honestly. Much of it will be related to driving flight controls. And up until the last 6-9 months, I really didn't hear many people even mention the IFR training opportunity that is being missed with FG; shoot, most people I talked to 1-2 years ago (when I was trying to learn how to modify the 2D panel in the 172) couldn't understand why I was even wasting my time by not going 3D! I have said this many times over the past 3-4 years--I have flown just about every PC-based flight simulation package that's been on the market in the past 15-20 years, and Flight Gear flies as well as any of them. The issue is functionality, at least in terms of training student instrument pilots. Develop that, and FG will have absolutely no problems earning FAA certification. By the way, our proposed timeline to make that application is within the next 6-9 months...with any luck. TB -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw---
Hi All, To answer your questions; Jon, yes this is the intention to help build FG more, as we can not code in house hopefully our contribution of money will help the project. Martin Am, everything on the site is sold as per the conditions of the GPL, we go further by having a developers area with full details of flight gear. Also it is listed on the main page; All from the thriving Open Source Community, this software is forever changing, This is a commercial adaption of the world renown flight Gear project. Further information available in our Developers Area There is no requirement for this anywhere under the GPL, but we deemed it necessary to have a long term venture. This prize money is how we wish to contribute back to the community. Just to clear this up the GPL allows this kind of selling of the software. We offer a service that provides this sim to people who otherwise would not be using it. But if they have any issues with buyers remorse after purchasing it, they can get a full refund for 60 days. So it is not a grab the money and run scenario like many people selling Open Source software. Another way to think about it is; Have you ever bought fish, meat, rice etc at the supermarket? Have you ever bought petrol? Have you ever bought sports water? Have you ever bought a burger? Have you ever gone out for food at a restaurant? These are all service orientated businesses. The product is readily available to anyone for free if you know how to get it, or have time to make it. However, for some reason most people choose just to pay for it. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw---
Am Freitag, den 02.10.2009, 04:21 -0500 schrieb Jon S. Berndt: I like this idea! It’s a well-intentioned way to support the community. I would call it a well intention if they would clearly state that this is a conveniant re package of FlightGear. Instead, on all the public pages of flightprosim.com there is not a single mention of FlightGear or flightgear.org, nor a Note that the Software is GPL, or a link to the Sources Availability. They even sell an Air Craft Addon Pack with all CVS Aircraft. Jon From: FlightProSim.com [mailto:sa...@flightprosim.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:30 PM To: flightgear-de...@lists.sf.net Subject: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw--- Hi All, To further enhance the Flight Gear project we would like to begin a monthly developer’s competition. We are asking you to give ideas for what could get developed over the next month…. This must be attainable, measurable and worth getting created. A couple of rules: 1. All code to be released under GPL 2/3, or as public domain 2. Only one winner will be awarded the $250 USD prize 3. Prize money will be sent via paypal to the winners account 4. This s a monthly prize so all entries to be in by October 31 2009 5. The winner will be picked by the developers here for the best enhancement made!! Hopefully this will be ongoing monthly with an increase in prize money as more money becomes available. We want to help Flight Gear gain further momentum, new developers and make Flight Gear the flight sim of choice to the masses… Lets open this up for discussion and any questions you may have Charlie and the team at FPS -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw---
I like this idea! It's a well-intentioned way to support the community. Jon From: FlightProSim.com [mailto:sa...@flightprosim.com] Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:30 PM To: flightgear-de...@lists.sf.net Subject: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw--- Hi All, To further enhance the Flight Gear project we would like to begin a monthly developer's competition. We are asking you to give ideas for what could get developed over the next month.. This must be attainable, measurable and worth getting created. A couple of rules: 1. All code to be released under GPL 2/3, or as public domain 2. Only one winner will be awarded the $250 USD prize 3. Prize money will be sent via paypal to the winners account 4. This s a monthly prize so all entries to be in by October 31 2009 5. The winner will be picked by the developers here for the best enhancement made!! Hopefully this will be ongoing monthly with an increase in prize money as more money becomes available. We want to help Flight Gear gain further momentum, new developers and make Flight Gear the flight sim of choice to the masses. Lets open this up for discussion and any questions you may have Charlie and the team at FPS -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw---
Jon S. Berndt wrote: I like this idea! It's a well-intentioned way to support the community. How do you know that they're not just trying to lull people after their recent 'incidents' ? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] October $250 Flight Gear Developers Draw---
Hi All, To further enhance the Flight Gear project we would like to begin a monthly developer's competition. We are asking you to give ideas for what could get developed over the next month.. This must be attainable, measurable and worth getting created. A couple of rules: 1. All code to be released under GPL 2/3, or as public domain 2. Only one winner will be awarded the $250 USD prize 3. Prize money will be sent via paypal to the winners account 4. This s a monthly prize so all entries to be in by October 31 2009 5. The winner will be picked by the developers here for the best enhancement made!! Hopefully this will be ongoing monthly with an increase in prize money as more money becomes available. We want to help Flight Gear gain further momentum, new developers and make Flight Gear the flight sim of choice to the masses. Lets open this up for discussion and any questions you may have Charlie and the team at FPS -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
