Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 13, 2018, at 3:12 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> I have found is that forum
> and ticket traffic far exceeds the amount of source code.

I just exported my local 6-year archive of the SQLite mailing list traffic to 
an mbox file, then gzipped it, yielding a 31 MB file.  The current 
sqlite.fossil file is 51 MB.

If we do a linear projection back to the start of the mailing list — August 
2002, according to MARC — then we’d expect the full ML archive to be roughly 
100 MB, not counting the -dev list and such.

That estimate includes the peak in traffic many years ago:

https://imgur.com/a/UdQ5ziH

That chart shows that the SQLite-Users mailing list is “dying,” in that its 
message volume is currently lower than near the mailing list’s beginning, 
despite the much greater popularity of the library these days.  I ascribe that 
to an increasing percentage of questions having web-searchable answers now, 
plus a decreasing willingness to put up with mailing lists.

(I just corrected a funny autocorrect: malign lists. :) )

My gzipped mbox test is worse than a Fossil-based solution, which:

1. would not have all of those redundant RFC 822 mail header labels;

2. would not need many of the message header lines at all (e.g. X-Abuse-Info or 
List-Unsubscribe); and 

3. would not store many of the fields in inefficient plain text forms within 
the SQLite DB.   (e.g. Delivery-Date might be a time_t stored in an INTEGER 
column rather than the verbose text RFC 822 format, and if not, then it would 
probably be the more compact ISO 8601 format so as to make the SQLite date/time 
routines happy.)

There would be no extra disk space cost on sqlite.org, since I assume you’re 
already keeping a mailing list archive there.

The extra space on the wire during cloning can be solved in the same way /uv is 
handled today, if need be.

> this kind of traffic does not lend itself well to delta compression.

In fact, delta compression would benefit two use cases of the Fossil Forum 
Feature:

1. The post editing case, just as with Fossil wiki articles today.

2. Quotations in replies.

Granted, a forum feature would lower the current /stat compression ratios, but 
we’re not really after high compression ratios for their own sake, are we?  
We’re using compression to solve problems: inter-version redundancy, the low 
information density of prose and high-level language code, etc.

Forum posts would be highly compressible by zlib.  The uncompressed mbox file 
in the tests above is about 5x the size of the gzipped version.

> extraneous and noisy forum traffic.

One man’s noise is another man’s signal.

It would be very nice to be able to search the mailing list from within Fossil 
UI, getting only one copy of each matching message, not one from 
mail-archive.com, one from MARC, one from Nabble, one from …

I happen know where we can get a pretty good FTS implementation. ;)

This feature would be even more useful on private projects, where we cannot 
rely on the likes of mail-archive.com to gather and index our discussions.

> This is especially true if attachments are
> allowed on forum posts

You can fob that off on third-party services like Imgur, for the most part, 
just as Stack Exchange does.

If a post really really needs a repo-embedded attachment, it can use an 
embedded doc link, just as you’d do for a Fossil wiki article today.

>> 3. Forum posts can show up in the timeline.
> 
> Yikes.  I think I would certainly want that to be turned off by default.

The timeline search type field defaults to “Check-ins”, does it not?  You’d 
only see forum posts with “Any Type” selected or with a new “Forum Posts” 
filter selected.

Even then, it should be quite manageable.  With the default 100 event search 
window size, you’d still be seeing several days of activity with the current 
level of SQLite mailing list traffic, most of the time.  SQLite’s mailing list 
traffic must be somewhere over the 90th percentile in terms of daily traffic, 
so most Fossil-hosted software projects would show even more days of activity 
in that 100 event window.

To clarify, I don’t mean that the whole forum post would show up in the 
Timeline, just a brief summary, as currently happens with tickets and wiki 
article events.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 13, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Steve Schow  wrote:
> 
> Yea I agree, this is nice stuff to have, but in my view is not compelling for 
> fossil which sets itself apart by being lightweight and simple.

Yes, and I would expect this Fossil Forum Feature to be lightweight and simple, 
in the same way that Fossil doesn’t try to compete feature-for-feature with 
MediaWiki or Jira.  It provides enough wiki and enough ticket tracking for most 
projects.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Stéphane Aulery]

Le 13/06/2018 à 15:41, Svyatoslav Mishyn a écrit :


(Wed, 13 Jun 09:10) Richard Hipp:

Other issues with GNU MailMan:


...

(3) GNU MailMan is a pile of Python, spread out across many
directories in magical places all over the filesystem.  It is sparsely
documented (that I have been able to find) and difficult to work on.




An other with good maintenance :

https://www.sympa.org/

--
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Stéphane Aulery]

Le 13/06/2018 à 21:57, Florian Weimer a écrit :

* Codebykevin:


Does Mailman support old school subscription over email?


It does.  It's possible to run it without any web frontend at all, and
it's still useful.  Of course, there's no browsable web archive, but
an external service can handle that.
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Yet the LKML (http://vger.kernel.org/) use only Majordomo [1], without 
web interface. OpenBSD had a majordomo web interface [2] for management, 
but use MARC for archiving.


You can keep mailmain, give information to subscribe by email, and 
archive on https://www.mail-archive.com.


A forum is just a mailing list in less good.

But drh could do a trinity of lightweight softwares : SQLite, Fossil and 
..., a new and revolutionary mailing list manager and archiver in one 
small and efficient binary.


[1] http://vger.kernel.org/
[2] http://old.greatcircle.com/majordomo/
[3] http://www.siliconexus.com/MajorCool/

--
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Scott Doctor]

Just my 2 cents. I do not think including a forum module in 
fossil is a good idea. Forum software is an entire project by 
itself. Over the years I tried various open source forum 
software for my various project websites. Simple Machines Forum 
(SMF) is the go-to one that I use. It has various anti-spam 
modules and add-ons that work well and is easy to setup, 
administer, and moderate. Plenty of options to configure with as 
little or as much protection as desired.


https://www.simplemachines.org/

I think a forum is a better way to go. Easy to search and browse 
topics. Have just a few boards. SQLite, Fossil, FAQ, maybe a 
couple of others. I find forums that use too many boards 
annoying and difficult to decide which board I should post a 
specific question. Email addresses can be hidden so the issue of 
scrapping goes away.


SMF (and most other forum software) allows private messaging. So 
it is never necessary for anyone to have a specific persons 
email thereby solving the main issue.


-
Scott Doctor
sc...@scottdoctor.com
-


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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Warren Young  wrote:
>> Indeed, there are many advantages to just tacking a forum capability
>> onto Fossil.
>
> Let’s list them:
>
> 2. Everyone who clones a Fossil project repository would henceforth also get
> a clone of the project’s message traffic.

This is not necessarily an advantage.  We I have found is that forum
and ticket traffic far exceeds the amount of source code.  Furthermore
this kind of traffic does not lend itself well to delta compression.
And so what you would likely encounter is that clones would swell
uncontrollably with most of the extra space going to extraneous and
noisy forum traffic.  This is especially true if attachments are
allowed on forum posts, because what I have found is that you will
quickly accumulate many multi-megabyte incompressible screenshot
attachments.  It doesn't take too many people attaching screenshots
off of their hi-res "retinue" screen to give you 1GB clone bandwidth
even for a smaller project.

>
> 3. Forum posts can show up in the timeline.

Yikes.  I think I would certainly want that to be turned off by default.

>
> 4. Forum posts will be able to ink to Fossil artifacts in the same way that
> checkin comments, wiki articles, and such can today.
>
> 5. Vice versa: a checkin comment can say “Closes issue raised in forum post
> [abcd1234]” and get an automatic *and durable* link to the post.  (How many
> web mail archives have gone away or broken their link structure since the
> SQLite ML was started?)
>
> 6. Trivially-implemented delayed offline replies: sync the project repo
> before you go off-network, write your forum message replies on the airplane,
> in the tent, etc. then sync when you get back into the warm wifi bath to
> push all your replies out.
>

These last three are nice ideas.  But they depend on (2) which comes
with associated bandwidth and storage overhead.

My current design does not automatically sync forum content.  I might
add the ability to sync forum traffic separately, using a separate
command, just as one can now optionally sync unversioned content using
the "fossil uv sync" command.  But that will come later, if at all.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Svyatoslav Mishyn  wrote:
>
> Another alternative would be nimforum:
> https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum
>

It does not appear to have email notification.  Unless I overlooked something.
-- 
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d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Steve Schow]

Yea I agree, this is nice stuff to have, but in my view is not compelling for 
fossil which sets itself apart by being lightweight and simple.  There are 
numerous collaborative development platforms out there already.  I’ve messed 
around with a few of them and they are definitely cool and if I had a larger 
team working on stuff I’d definitely consider them over fossil for exactly the 
reasons you lay out.  However, I do not feel that Fossil is in the same space 
as them, it sets itself apart by being lightweight and simple and addresses the 
core needs of SCM, with a "good enough" ticketing system for a few people to 
collaborate on”.  There are actually many things about the ticketing and SCM in 
fossil which are bare bones compared to what I am used to in the workplace and 
have caused me to wish for something more elaborate in terms of peer review 
workflow, etc…but at the end of the day, the real strength of fossil its is 
simplicity and lightweight nature..so those kinds of advanced features will 
probably never get there and that’s fine.  I think fossil is great for what it 
is.  What you’re hoping for would be a very large development effort to obtain 
in fossil, and then it would cease to r itself from the other large offerings 
that are already out there, as the simple lightweight solution.


> On Jun 13, 2018, at 1:12 PM, Warren Young  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Collaboration such as what we see on GitHub, etc..would be cool, don’t get 
>> me wrong, but in my opinion would greatly add to complexity in fossil.  I 
>> would be using one of those solutions already if I wanted a big complicated 
>> collaborative platform like that.
> 
> Any software project with more than one remote member needs such a thing.  
> For such projects, a discussion forum is probably more important than a wiki 
> or ticket tracker.
> 
> I think it’s fair to consider some kind of discussion forum an essential tool 
> for software development collaboration, which puts it right in Fossil’s space.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Florian Weimer]

* Codebykevin:

> Does Mailman support old school subscription over email?

It does.  It's possible to run it without any web frontend at all, and
it's still useful.  Of course, there's no browsable web archive, but
an external service can handle that.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Florian Weimer]

* Richard Hipp:

> I have not.  On the other hand, that patch has apparently been
> available for 4 years and has not yet be folded into the official GNU
> MailMan.  Is Mailman still supported?

It is, but it's a GNU project, so they are reluctant to download
proprietary Javascript for execution by their users.

> (2) We keep having problems with evil subscribers harvesting the email
> addresses of innocent posters and send them porn-spam via private
> email.  Since the porn-spam contain the subject line of the original
> posting, it often makes it through spam filters.  MailMan has not
> effective solution to this.

What would be an effective solution against *that*?  Isn't it caused
by some subscribers having malware on their system?
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Svyatoslav Mishyn]

(Wed, 13 Jun 14:59) Richard Hipp:
> Cross-posted to the fossil-users mailing list since www.fossil-scm.org
> and www.sqlite.org are the same machine and both mailing lists are
> impacted by the current problem.
> 
> On 6/13/18, Luiz Américo  wrote:
> > How about using https://www.discourse.org/ ?
> >
> > Open source projects can use for free
> 
> Thanks for the pointer, Luiz.
> 
> Discourse is moving the right direction, I think.  To install it, one
> downloads a docker container and runs it on some Linux VM someplace.
> (They recommend Digital Ocean, which is where I www3.sqlite.org is
> hosted already.)  It's a self-contained package with minimal
> dependencies that just works.  And it uses SQLite!  My kind of
> software!

Another alternative would be nimforum:
https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum

From its description:
NimForum is a light-weight forum implementation with many similarities
to Discourse. It is implemented in the Nim programming language and uses
SQLite for its database.


Haven't tried to use it myself, just suggesting.


-- 
https://www.juef.space/
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 13, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Steve Schow  wrote:
> 
> There are other deep solutions such as redmine and others which provide deep 
> collaboration capabilities…which is where that kind of feature would lead to.

That makes me like the idea even more. :)

It would be nice, for instance, to be able to reply to a checkin.  A 
coworker/collaborator often checks something in that you want to discuss, so 
you reply to the checkin, creating a discussion thread from it.

That would also be a step on the path towards a code review feature.  In the 
initial version, simply being able to attach an “Approved” or “Merge it” reply 
to the latest checkin on an experimental feature branch would be useful.

You can sorta do this today with tech notes, but the message target may miss 
seeing it, just monitoring the timeline.  Adding in email notification solves 
that, since the email comes from a trusted source, and is thus easy to filter, 
tag, sort, and escort past the anti-spam filters.

This also allows a platform for CI/CD tools: the tool can “reply” to the 
checkin with the status of the build, tests, etc.  That in turn allows Fossil 
to display build and test status badges in the default Home wiki article.

> Collaboration such as what we see on GitHub, etc..would be cool, don’t get me 
> wrong, but in my opinion would greatly add to complexity in fossil.  I would 
> be using one of those solutions already if I wanted a big complicated 
> collaborative platform like that.

Any software project with more than one remote member needs such a thing.  For 
such projects, a discussion forum is probably more important than a wiki or 
ticket tracker.

I think it’s fair to consider some kind of discussion forum an essential tool 
for software development collaboration, which puts it right in Fossil’s space.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Codebykevin]

Does Mailman support old school subscription over email?

> On Jun 13, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Marcelo  wrote:
> 
>> El mié., 13 jun. 2018 a las 15:39, Andy Bradford 
>> () escribió:
> 
>> Thus said Richard Hipp on Wed, 13 Jun 2018 07:28:02 -0400:
>> 
>> > The most recent  problem is that robots are  visiting the subscription
>> > page and entering innocent user's email addresses and names.
>> 
>> What about  simply disabling web-based subscriptions  and require people
>> to subscribe via email?
>> 
> 
> ​+1. Subscription and responses via email are a plus for me, not a con. There 
> are too many forums online trying to improve what a thread-enabled mail 
> client has been doing well for years, to start thinking in adding another.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Marcelo]

El mié., 13 jun. 2018 a las 15:39, Andy Bradford ()
escribió:

> Thus said Richard Hipp on Wed, 13 Jun 2018 07:28:02 -0400:
>
> > The most recent  problem is that robots are  visiting the subscription
> > page and entering innocent user's email addresses and names.
>
> What about  simply disabling web-based subscriptions  and require people
> to subscribe via email?
>
>
​+1. Subscription and responses via email are a plus for me, not a con.
There are too many forums online trying to improve what a thread-enabled
mail client has been doing well for years, to start thinking in adding
another.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Steve Schow]

Here are some forum solutions that have been around a long time and a lot of 
people using them.  both work with sqlite:


https://www.phpbb.com 
https://mybb.com 


more info about many more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Internet_forum_software 



> On Jun 13, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Steve Schow  wrote:
> 
> As a certified forum junkie…I’ll add my two cents…
> 
> While it would be cool to have a forum type of capability built into fossil, 
> I do think that would end up being a very deep rabbit hole and one of the 
> things i love about fossil is the simplicity of it.  There are other deep 
> solutions such as redmine and others which provide deep collaboration 
> capabilities…which is where that kind of feature would lead to.  Otherwise, 
> in my mind, there is not much purpose of building it into fossil itself.  
> Collaboration such as what we see on GitHub, etc..would be cool, don’t get me 
> wrong, but in my opinion would greatly add to complexity in fossil.  I would 
> be using one of those solutions already if I wanted a big complicated 
> collaborative platform like that.
> 
> In terms of writing your own mail list software, I don’t know if that makes 
> that much sense either.  You might as well just move us to yahoo groups or 
> google groups or something like that and be done with it.  email is 
> fundamentally insecure and prone to spamming there is not much way around 
> that.
> 
> In terms of converting this list to a forum, an idea I whole heartedly 
> support, there are numerous open source solutions out there for rolling out 
> your own forum, but yes, it does mean having a machine decked out usually 
> with MySQL, but not always…and possibly apache, but not always.  There are a 
> few solutions that are commonly in use and basically use the same kind of 
> markdown and most people are pretty comfortable with BBCode, for example, by 
> now.  There are a few others.  There are some other new frameworks still in 
> early stages, that are more elaborate, but in my mind its mostly eye candy, 
> with LIKE buttons and stuff like that which is kind of overkill as a 
> replacement for mailman.  One of the old standby’s that are in use all over 
> the internet are probably the way to go here.
> 
> Some advantages of a web based forum are that old threads can live for years 
> and be revisited at any time by anyone, very easily, with searching, etc..  
> Moderation and membership can be controlled perhaps more easily. 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 13, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>> 
>> On 6/13/18, Warren Young  wrote:
>>> If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to
>>> provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article
>>> changes, and other Fossil events.
>> 
>> Indeed, there are many advantages to just tacking a forum capability
>> onto Fossil.  But there are also disadvantages.  The biggest problem I
>> see is that one does not necessarily want the standard Fossil page
>> header and footer to appear on the forum pages.  People looking for
>> help with an SQLite question do not need to see "Timeline", "Files",
>> "Branches", "Tags", and "Tickets" menu items across the top of the
>> page.  (ex: https://www.sqlite.org/src/doc/trunk/README.md)
>> 
>> -- 
>> D. Richard Hipp
>> d...@sqlite.org
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> 
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Steve Schow]

As a certified forum junkie…I’ll add my two cents…

While it would be cool to have a forum type of capability built into fossil, I 
do think that would end up being a very deep rabbit hole and one of the things 
i love about fossil is the simplicity of it.  There are other deep solutions 
such as redmine and others which provide deep collaboration capabilities…which 
is where that kind of feature would lead to.  Otherwise, in my mind, there is 
not much purpose of building it into fossil itself.  Collaboration such as what 
we see on GitHub, etc..would be cool, don’t get me wrong, but in my opinion 
would greatly add to complexity in fossil.  I would be using one of those 
solutions already if I wanted a big complicated collaborative platform like 
that.

In terms of writing your own mail list software, I don’t know if that makes 
that much sense either.  You might as well just move us to yahoo groups or 
google groups or something like that and be done with it.  email is 
fundamentally insecure and prone to spamming there is not much way around that.

In terms of converting this list to a forum, an idea I whole heartedly support, 
there are numerous open source solutions out there for rolling out your own 
forum, but yes, it does mean having a machine decked out usually with MySQL, 
but not always…and possibly apache, but not always.  There are a few solutions 
that are commonly in use and basically use the same kind of markdown and most 
people are pretty comfortable with BBCode, for example, by now.  There are a 
few others.  There are some other new frameworks still in early stages, that 
are more elaborate, but in my mind its mostly eye candy, with LIKE buttons and 
stuff like that which is kind of overkill as a replacement for mailman.  One of 
the old standby’s that are in use all over the internet are probably the way to 
go here.

Some advantages of a web based forum are that old threads can live for years 
and be revisited at any time by anyone, very easily, with searching, etc..  
Moderation and membership can be controlled perhaps more easily. 


> On Jun 13, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 6/13/18, Warren Young  wrote:
>> If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to
>> provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article
>> changes, and other Fossil events.
> 
> Indeed, there are many advantages to just tacking a forum capability
> onto Fossil.  But there are also disadvantages.  The biggest problem I
> see is that one does not necessarily want the standard Fossil page
> header and footer to appear on the forum pages.  People looking for
> help with an SQLite question do not need to see "Timeline", "Files",
> "Branches", "Tags", and "Tickets" menu items across the top of the
> page.  (ex: https://www.sqlite.org/src/doc/trunk/README.md)
> 
> -- 
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said Richard Hipp on Wed, 13 Jun 2018 07:28:02 -0400:

> The most recent  problem is that robots are  visiting the subscription
> page and entering innocent user's email addresses and names.

What about  simply disabling web-based subscriptions  and require people
to subscribe via email?

Thanks,

Andy
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[jungle Boogie]

On 13 June 2018 at 08:11, Warren Young  wrote:
> On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>>
>> My current tthinking is to use a hybrid approach where subscribers get
>> emails just like ordinary mailing lists, but posting and replying is
>> via web-form only.
>
> If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to 
> provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article 
> changes, and other Fossil events.


DRH at least had this concept in mind:
http://www2.alt-mail.net/index.html/doc/trunk/README.md
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Re: [fossil-users] "remember this password (Y/n)?" and `isatty()`

[Warren Young]

On Jun 8, 2018, at 5:08 PM, Eduard  wrote:
> 
> The '--interactive' switch is only for the sqlite shell I think. It is not 
> accepted for the remote-url command.

So reflect the same feature into main() within src/main.c.  Then test the 
global variable stdin_is_interactive wherever isatty(stdin) is currently used.
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Re: [fossil-users] Export to SVN?

[Stéphane Aulery]

Hello,

Le 13/06/2018 à 16:16, Thomas Burdick a écrit :


I’m interested in experimenting with Fossil as a replacement for svn for 
a large-ish project I work on. I saw that import can import a dumped svn 
repository, but there’s no export option for svn. Would adding one be a 
lot of work?


Maybe you can do Fossil > Git > SVN

Fossil > Git is explained here [1]

Git > SVN is here [2ab] [3] [4] [5]

Git > SVN seems painfull.

[1] https://fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/trunk/www/inout.wiki
[2a] https://git-scm.com/book/en/v1/Git-and-Other-Systems-Git-and-Subversion
[2b] https://gist.github.com/stefanfoulis/909746
[3] 
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/907913/there-is-any-way-to-synchronize-git-and-subversion-repositories

[4] https://github.com/iteman/svn2git/tree/master
[5] http://repo.or.cz/w/git2svn.git

Regards,

--
Stéphane Aulery
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:30 AM, JH  wrote:
> 
> Recently, I started working on that using my smtp.h and smtp.c:

I haven’t looked into your implementation, but I suspect you’re missing a whole 
lot:


http://sqlite.1065341.n5.nabble.com/Many-ML-emails-going-to-GMail-s-SPAM-td98685i20.html#a98722

If Fossil gets an email output path, I’d expect it to be implemented by calling 
out to an existing MTA, rather than use an internal one, at least to start 
with.   Otherwise, large parts of the email world will be unreachable due to 
not implementing all of the necessary standards.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Ron Aaron]

  
  
Excellent! You might take a look as well at the very lightweight
  "tlse" project (I use it in 8th): 
  https://github.com/eduardsui/tlse -- it is a small replacement for
  OpenSSL


On 13/06/2018 19:30, JH wrote:

On
  06/13/2018 08:11 AM, Warren Young wrote:
  
  On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Richard Hipp
 wrote:

My current tthinking is to use a hybrid
  approach where subscribers get
  
  emails just like ordinary mailing lists, but posting and
  replying is
  
  via web-form only.
  

If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from
being able to provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications
on checkins, wiki article changes, and other Fossil events.

  
  One way to implement that is to incorporate SMTP into Fossil
  directly. Recently, I started working on that using my smtp.h and
  smtp.c:
  
  
  https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client/artifact/f820e6e88d9c3948
  
  https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client/artifact/12ee754f88640cb1
  
  https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client
  
  
  Git has a 'git-send-email' command so I add a 'fossil email'
  command as a starting point.
  
  
  https://git-scm.com/docs/git-send-email
  
  
  I can also add an 'Email Settings' link in the fossil admin
  settings menu which would allow the admin to set the mail server
  settings. I can provide diff for that later this week, if the
  fossil devs think this is heading in the right direction.
  
  
  Does this sound like a good idea for Fossil?
  
  
  -James
  
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  Ron Aaron | 
   CTO  Aaron High-Tech, Ltd |
  +1 516.373.0794 / +972 52.652.5543 |
  
GnuPG Key: 91F92EB8


  

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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[JH]

On 06/13/2018 08:11 AM, Warren Young wrote:

On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

My current tthinking is to use a hybrid approach where subscribers get
emails just like ordinary mailing lists, but posting and replying is
via web-form only.

If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to 
provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article 
changes, and other Fossil events.
One way to implement that is to incorporate SMTP into Fossil directly. 
Recently, I started working on that using my smtp.h and smtp.c:


https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client/artifact/f820e6e88d9c3948
https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client/artifact/12ee754f88640cb1
https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client

Git has a 'git-send-email' command so I add a 'fossil email' command as 
a starting point.


https://git-scm.com/docs/git-send-email

I can also add an 'Email Settings' link in the fossil admin settings 
menu which would allow the admin to set the mail server settings. I can 
provide diff for that later this week, if the fossil devs think this is 
heading in the right direction.


Does this sound like a good idea for Fossil?

-James
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 13, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 6/13/18, Warren Young  wrote:
>> If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to
>> provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article
>> changes, and other Fossil events.
> 
> Indeed, there are many advantages to just tacking a forum capability
> onto Fossil.

Let’s list them:

1. Lots of “free” infrastructure: user management, role-based access control, 
web framework, wiki and Markdown to HTML formatters, durable and efficient 
message storage with deltas, pre-designed shunning mechanism.

2. Everyone who clones a Fossil project repository would henceforth also get a 
clone of the project’s message traffic.

3. Forum posts can show up in the timeline.

4. Forum posts will be able to ink to Fossil artifacts in the same way that 
checkin comments, wiki articles, and such can today.

5. Vice versa: a checkin comment can say “Closes issue raised in forum post 
[abcd1234]” and get an automatic *and durable* link to the post.  (How many web 
mail archives have gone away or broken their link structure since the SQLite ML 
was started?)

6. Trivially-implemented delayed offline replies: sync the project repo before 
you go off-network, write your forum message replies on the airplane, in the 
tent, etc. then sync when you get back into the warm wifi bath to push all your 
replies out.

> But there are also disadvantages.  The biggest problem I
> see is that one does not necessarily want the standard Fossil page
> header and footer to appear on the forum pages.

That’s a small cost, and arguably not a cost at all.  If you’re at the SQLite 
project web site and are posting a message, you might well want to make use of 
other Fossil services while you’re there.

The forum feature may well have a sub-header, but that doesn’t argue against 
having a top-level header linking to other site services.

Hacker News, Stack Exchange, Slashdot and other forum sites offer services 
other than messaging in their top-level site headers.

> People looking for
> help with an SQLite question do not need to see "Timeline", "Files",
> "Branches", "Tags", and "Tickets" menu items across the top of the
> page.  (ex: https://www.sqlite.org/src/doc/trunk/README.md)

Some may, and those that don’t need it can ignore it.
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Re: [fossil-users] Bug in /finfo not showing Deleted anymore.

[Stephan Beal]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Stephan Beal  wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>
>> On 6/13/18, Svyatoslav Mishyn  wrote:
>> > (Wed, 13 Jun 08:49) Andy Bradford:
>> >> I haven't  had the time to  investigate further, but it  seems that
>> with
>> >> this  commit, the  /finfo  timeline no  longer shows  when  a file
>> gets
>> >> Deleted:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5
>> >
>> > I've reported it before:
>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.o
>> rg/msg27146.html
>>
>> I'm tied up with a mailing-list infrastructure issue, so if you can
>> suggest a patch, that would be helpful.
>>
>
> This is very possibly closely related to the recent json patch which
> restored missing files in its timeline:
>
> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/cd55efe7754dd7e5
> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5
>
> Notice how the current UUID is SELECTed in each (previous and current
> versions: that section of code in the 2 links above is essentially
> mirrored).
>

Now i'm not so sure: the finfo change removes the subselect (which is
working on /json/timeline/checkin) into part of the join, which looks
correct to me. The json change switched the join to a left join, though, to
pick up the deleted files.

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [fossil-users] Bug in /finfo not showing Deleted anymore.

[Stephan Beal]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 5:12 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 6/13/18, Svyatoslav Mishyn  wrote:
> > (Wed, 13 Jun 08:49) Andy Bradford:
> >> I haven't  had the time to  investigate further, but it  seems that with
> >> this  commit, the  /finfo  timeline no  longer shows  when  a file  gets
> >> Deleted:
> >>
> >> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5
> >
> > I've reported it before:
> > https://www.mail-archive.com/fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.
> org/msg27146.html
>
> I'm tied up with a mailing-list infrastructure issue, so if you can
> suggest a patch, that would be helpful.
>

This is very possibly closely related to the recent json patch which
restored missing files in its timeline:

http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/cd55efe7754dd7e5
http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5

Notice how the current UUID is SELECTed in each (previous and current
versions: that section of code in the 2 links above is essentially
mirrored).

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Warren Young  wrote:
> If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to
> provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article
> changes, and other Fossil events.

Indeed, there are many advantages to just tacking a forum capability
onto Fossil.  But there are also disadvantages.  The biggest problem I
see is that one does not necessarily want the standard Fossil page
header and footer to appear on the forum pages.  People looking for
help with an SQLite question do not need to see "Timeline", "Files",
"Branches", "Tags", and "Tickets" menu items across the top of the
page.  (ex: https://www.sqlite.org/src/doc/trunk/README.md)

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Bug in /finfo not showing Deleted anymore.

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Svyatoslav Mishyn  wrote:
> (Wed, 13 Jun 08:49) Andy Bradford:
>> I haven't  had the time to  investigate further, but it  seems that with
>> this  commit, the  /finfo  timeline no  longer shows  when  a file  gets
>> Deleted:
>>
>> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5
>
> I've reported it before:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org/msg27146.html

I'm tied up with a mailing-list infrastructure issue, so if you can
suggest a patch, that would be helpful.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> My current tthinking is to use a hybrid approach where subscribers get
> emails just like ordinary mailing lists, but posting and replying is
> via web-form only.

If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able to 
provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki article 
changes, and other Fossil events.

> Web-form only post and reply makes it much easier to control spam.

Consider allowing editing as well.  I’ve found that I’ve become accustomed to 
pushing “submit” earlier than I would have in the past, due to Stack Exchange, 
Hacker News, VCSes, etc. because you can later correct typos, grammar errors, 
and clarity problems; but with email, once it’s sent, it’s unchangeable.  
Hence, I’ve been making increasing numbers of spelling, grammar, and clarity 
errors in mailing list posts.

This would be easy to build atop Fossil, being only a slight tweak on its 
normal use case.

> I would like to provide users the option to send messages formatted
> using Markdown.  Are there Markdown libraries available in TCL that I
> can use, that you know of?

This is another thing you’d get for free by building it atop Fossil.

Is there anything wrong with making this web/email feature set dependent on 
linking Fossil with the platform Tcl, so that you have access to the full Tcl 
ecosystem, as opposed to Jim Tcl?

That in turn would open the door to Tcl hooks.
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Re: [fossil-users] Bug in /finfo not showing Deleted anymore.

[Svyatoslav Mishyn]

(Wed, 13 Jun 08:49) Andy Bradford:
> I haven't  had the time to  investigate further, but it  seems that with
> this  commit, the  /finfo  timeline no  longer shows  when  a file  gets
> Deleted:
> 
> http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5

I've reported it before:
https://www.mail-archive.com/fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org/msg27146.html


-- 
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[fossil-users] Bug in /finfo not showing Deleted anymore.

[Andy Bradford]

Hello,

I haven't  had the time to  investigate further, but it  seems that with
this  commit, the  /finfo  timeline no  longer shows  when  a file  gets
Deleted:

http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/4c268999d5

Thanks,

Andy
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[fossil-users] Export to SVN?

[Thomas Burdick]

Hello,

I’m interested in experimenting with Fossil as a replacement for svn for a 
large-ish project I work on. I saw that import can import a dumped svn 
repository, but there’s no export option for svn. Would adding one be a lot of 
work?

(Seems I have interesting timing with my subscription to the list, but I made 
it in under the gun)

Thanks for any pointers,
Thomas
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Svyatoslav Mishyn]

(Wed, 13 Jun 10:05) Richard Hipp:
> I would like to provide users the option to send messages formatted
> using Markdown.  Are there Markdown libraries available in TCL that I
> can use, that you know of?

Written in pure Tcl?
Or is it OK to use Tcl bindings to existing C Markdown libraries?

http://wiki.tcl.tk/28965#pagetoca6cf0b79


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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas Burdick]

Le 13/06/2018 16:05, « fossil-users au nom de Richard Hipp » 
 a écrit :

I would like to provide users the option to send messages formatted
using Markdown.  Are there Markdown libraries available in TCL that I
can use, that you know of?

There is, and it's MIT licensed, too.
https://core.tcl.tk/tcllib/doc/trunk/embedded/www/tcllib/files/modules/markdown/markdown.html
https://core.tcl.tk/tcllib/artifact/cf491fc7741e1a23
 

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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Peter Vonča  wrote:
> If you're going to write your own, are you going to use wapp? Sounds like a
> good use case to me.

Maybe.

My current tthinking is to use a hybrid approach where subscribers get
emails just like ordinary mailing lists, but posting and replying is
via web-form only.  In other words, you cannot send email back to the
mailing list.  Web-form only post and reply makes it much easier to
control spam.

I would like to provide users the option to send messages formatted
using Markdown.  Are there Markdown libraries available in TCL that I
can use, that you know of?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Svyatoslav Mishyn  wrote:
>
> Have you considered/tried mlmmj - http://mlmmj.org/ ?
>
> At least it's written in C.

A am not familiar with mlmmj.  But a quick glance at the README shows
that it seems to be using a pile-of-files style database.  In order to
create a new mailing list, you run a script that creates a bunch of
directories under /var/spool/mlmmj/mlmmj-LISTNAME.  I'd really like to
move away from pile-of-files databases and hard-coded magic
directories.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 09:10:48AM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> Other issues with GNU MailMan:
> 
> (1) Only works with Apache.  Or, at least, I have only been able to
> get it to work with apache.  That means I have to run a separate
> apache server just to operation MailMan, whereas the rest of SQLite
> and Fossil uses a non-apache solution.

I never used it with Apache. All my past installations where done with
FastCGI.

> (2) We keep having problems with evil subscribers harvesting the email
> addresses of innocent posters and send them porn-spam via private
> email.  Since the porn-spam contain the subject line of the original
> posting, it often makes it through spam filters.  MailMan has not
> effective solution to this.

This is nothing mailman can do anything about though. The same issue
exist with any other mailing list.

> (3) GNU MailMan is a pile of Python, spread out across many
> directories in magical places all over the filesystem.  It is sparsely
> documented (that I have been able to find) and difficult to work on.

Is it? At least the pkgsrc version is fully contained under lib/mailman.
I don't comment on the source quality.

> For all of the above reasons, I think the time has come to abandon GNU
> MailMan for something better - something that I have more control
> over.

From past experience, I would generally recomment against rewriting mail
handling software. It tends to just not be worth the trouble.

That said, which version are you currently using -- the latest? I can
try to spend some time on checking how much work the captcha patch
needs in terms of updating.

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Svyatoslav Mishyn]

Hello,

(Wed, 13 Jun 09:10) Richard Hipp:
> Other issues with GNU MailMan:
> 
...
> (3) GNU MailMan is a pile of Python, spread out across many
> directories in magical places all over the filesystem.  It is sparsely
> documented (that I have been able to find) and difficult to work on.

Have you considered/tried mlmmj - http://mlmmj.org/ ?

At least it's written in C.


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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Peter Vonča]

If you're going to write your own, are you going to use wapp? Sounds like a
good use case to me.

You could use some open source forum software, plenty around and some of
them even support sqlite as a backend, on the other hand it's all written
in PHP ...
There's also Slack and Discord if you like that sort of thing.



On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 1:10 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 6/13/18, Joerg Sonnenberger  wrote:
> >
> > Does the patch from
> > https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-
> support-to-mailman/
> > work?
> >
>
> I have not.  On the other hand, that patch has apparently been
> available for 4 years and has not yet be folded into the official GNU
> MailMan.  Is Mailman still supported?
>
> I've been a subscriber to the GNU MailMan mailing list for a long
> while.  Traffic is very light.  One gets the idea that it is not
> actively maintained.
>
> Other issues with GNU MailMan:
>
> (1) Only works with Apache.  Or, at least, I have only been able to
> get it to work with apache.  That means I have to run a separate
> apache server just to operation MailMan, whereas the rest of SQLite
> and Fossil uses a non-apache solution.
>
> (2) We keep having problems with evil subscribers harvesting the email
> addresses of innocent posters and send them porn-spam via private
> email.  Since the porn-spam contain the subject line of the original
> posting, it often makes it through spam filters.  MailMan has not
> effective solution to this.
>
> (3) GNU MailMan is a pile of Python, spread out across many
> directories in magical places all over the filesystem.  It is sparsely
> documented (that I have been able to find) and difficult to work on.
>
> For all of the above reasons, I think the time has come to abandon GNU
> MailMan for something better - something that I have more control
> over.
>
> I'm currently writing my own.  But I am open to suggestions.
>
> If anyone reading this wants to call my on skype and talk me through
> patching GNU MailMan to get it working again, I am open to that idea
> too.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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> http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
>
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Joerg Sonnenberger  wrote:
>
> Does the patch from
> https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/
> work?
>

I have not.  On the other hand, that patch has apparently been
available for 4 years and has not yet be folded into the official GNU
MailMan.  Is Mailman still supported?

I've been a subscriber to the GNU MailMan mailing list for a long
while.  Traffic is very light.  One gets the idea that it is not
actively maintained.

Other issues with GNU MailMan:

(1) Only works with Apache.  Or, at least, I have only been able to
get it to work with apache.  That means I have to run a separate
apache server just to operation MailMan, whereas the rest of SQLite
and Fossil uses a non-apache solution.

(2) We keep having problems with evil subscribers harvesting the email
addresses of innocent posters and send them porn-spam via private
email.  Since the porn-spam contain the subject line of the original
posting, it often makes it through spam filters.  MailMan has not
effective solution to this.

(3) GNU MailMan is a pile of Python, spread out across many
directories in magical places all over the filesystem.  It is sparsely
documented (that I have been able to find) and difficult to work on.

For all of the above reasons, I think the time has come to abandon GNU
MailMan for something better - something that I have more control
over.

I'm currently writing my own.  But I am open to suggestions.

If anyone reading this wants to call my on skype and talk me through
patching GNU MailMan to get it working again, I am open to that idea
too.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 07:28:02AM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> Unfortunately, I'm going to need to shut down this mailing list due to
> robot harassment.  I am working to come up with a fix or an
> alternative now.  Your suggestions are welcomed.

Does the patch from
https://www.dragonsreach.it/2014/05/03/adding-recaptcha-support-to-mailman/
work?

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Martin Gagnon]

Just brainstorming here: May be a kind of  "mailing list" and/or "forum"
feature could be added to Fossil itself ?

Fossil would become even more an alternative to github+git.

Of course this would be a long-term work.

This is just a random thought, it might be a bad idea, I’m not sure what to
think about it.

  (Sorry for top posting and brevity, on mobile)

—
Martin G.

Le mer. 13 juin 2018 à 07:28, Richard Hipp  a écrit :

> Unfortunately, I'm going to need to shut down this mailing list due to
> robot harassment.  I am working to come up with a fix or an
> alternative now.  Your suggestions are welcomed.
>
> This mailing list has operated for many years using GNU MailMan.
> Unfortunately, that software is not able to cope with modern robot
> spammers, even with the latest updates.  And the source code for
> MailMan is sufficiently opaque that I am unable to work on it.
>
> The most recent problem is that robots are visiting the subscription
> page and entering innocent user's email addresses and names.  This
> causes a confirmation email to be sent to that user.  If it were just
> single confirmation email that the user could ignore, that would be
> fine.  But apparently MailMan sends one email for each subscription
> request.  The robots have figured this out and are putting in hundreds
> of subscription requests for the same individual, apparently to harass
> them.
>
> I have already suspended new subscriptions.  Existing subscribers will
> be able to continue using this list until I come up with a replacement
> (or a fix to the current problem) but no new subscribers will be
> accepted.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
> ___
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> http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
>
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Sean Woods]

> Your suggestions are welcomed.

Call me crazy, but what about a simple discussion board system built into 
Fossil itself?  That way all the existing Fossil security code could be 
utilized.  It could be distributed and you could push/pull conversation threads 
as artifacts.  It could send out email notifications much as a mailing list 
does, but you'd need to log into the Fossil UI to post.  Or if you wanted to 
post via email perhaps one could attach some kind of key to prove authenticity 
(or maybe use GPG mail or something?)

This way you could use the same code for SQLite as you do for Fossil to host 
the SQLite list.

There could be full-text searching with the FTS5 plugin.

etc.
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[fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

Unfortunately, I'm going to need to shut down this mailing list due to
robot harassment.  I am working to come up with a fix or an
alternative now.  Your suggestions are welcomed.

This mailing list has operated for many years using GNU MailMan.
Unfortunately, that software is not able to cope with modern robot
spammers, even with the latest updates.  And the source code for
MailMan is sufficiently opaque that I am unable to work on it.

The most recent problem is that robots are visiting the subscription
page and entering innocent user's email addresses and names.  This
causes a confirmation email to be sent to that user.  If it were just
single confirmation email that the user could ignore, that would be
fine.  But apparently MailMan sends one email for each subscription
request.  The robots have figured this out and are putting in hundreds
of subscription requests for the same individual, apparently to harass
them.

I have already suspended new subscriptions.  Existing subscribers will
be able to continue using this list until I come up with a replacement
(or a fix to the current problem) but no new subscribers will be
accepted.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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[fossil-users] Fossil ignoring directories starting with _

[Riza Dindir]

Hi All,

I am using fossil. Wanted to create a directory that starts with _. But
when i use extras, it does not list the directory and the files in it. And
addremove does not add the directory and its contents to the repository.

How can i solve this problem?

Here is my ignore-glob

*dist*
*DIST*
*cvs*
*CVS*
*~
*.bak
__pychache__

Kind Regards,
Riza Dindir
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