Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO). Maybe Neve Shalom ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Shalom_%E2%80%93_W%C4%81%C4%A7at_as-Sal%C4%81m) could be a good (and peaceful) experience. I don't know Haifa, but maybe also there there are groups\location\associations worth a visit. Personally, I like very much the idea of a Wikimania explicitely aimed to a ''peaceful message'' (whatever this could mean). But still I don't want to force the WM Israel team to change the program, if this was not what they defined. Aubrey ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 14/08/10 11:33, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO). Yes, that was the point, but when I read up on Harel's suggestion of Bethlehem, I realised that it would fit the bill well enough. It has a recent history of violence: the IDF invaded it in 2002, in Operation Defensive Shield. Part of the town was annexed to Israel by the construction of the West Bank barrier. On the south side of the town is one of the West Bank's many long-term refugee camps, established in 1949. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Andrea Zanni wrote: I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO). Maybe Neve Shalom ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Shalom_%E2%80%93_W%C4%81%C4%A7at_as-Sal%C4%81m) could be a good (and peaceful) experience. I don't know Haifa, but maybe also there there are groups\location\associations worth a visit. Personally, I like very much the idea of a Wikimania explicitely aimed to a ''peaceful message'' (whatever this could mean). But still I don't want to force the WM Israel team to change the program, if this was not what they defined. If you need to say whatever this could mean about the peaceful message it's better to not make that an explicit message. It would likely be seen by many as a peaceful message from an Israeli perspective, and that could too easily be seen as taking sides even if it isn't. Any peaceful message should come from our actions, and not from some stated policy. Ray ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Haifa, too, has a history of violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_restaurant_suicide_bombing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing and others), the years of the Second Intifada in the first half of this decade left few places unscathed by terror and grief, for both people. But really, folks, this is so much outside of what the conference is all about. It is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and we shouldn't (IMHO mustn't) make it into a political/ideological tour of the conflict. If someone wants to use their visit of the region for that purpose, they're welcome to do it before or after the conference. Harel On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 14/08/10 11:33, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO). Yes, that was the point, but when I read up on Harel's suggestion of Bethlehem, I realised that it would fit the bill well enough. It has a recent history of violence: the IDF invaded it in 2002, in Operation Defensive Shield. Part of the town was annexed to Israel by the construction of the West Bank barrier. On the south side of the town is one of the West Bank's many long-term refugee camps, established in 1949. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Slightly OT, in some parts, sorry in advance, On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Mariano Cecowski marianocecow...@yahoo.com.ar wrote: Osama, I'm afraid your view is very self-centric. We Southamericans have a really hard time getting into USA; and I'm sure many couldn't go to that Wikimania because of visa problems. As many couldn't go to Thailand because because of economic reasons. And some didn't go to Egypt because of religious issues. There is always something that will prevent some people to assist to a Wikimania; that's why we rotate the host! I'd like to join Mariano and Brianna; that's why we rotate host cities and should. I'm personally concern with visa availability, since I've seen our potential good speakers hindered to attend in the last minutes, but also I think it should remain one of considerations, not the sole. Every country should have a chance to host which would make the local attendance easier. I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea). Uh-oh, i think it depends. At least in Japan, it wouldn't go so easy nor fast and it costs much higher. I suppose that if people complain, they would have good reasons and that not every thing goes in a same way in different countries. Please, let's concentrate on making life easier for those with problems who *do* want to assist to Wikimania 2011; the rest is just wining, and trying to take political advantage of the current situation. MarianoC.- --- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org escribió: De: Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org Asunto: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Para: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fecha: jueves, 12 de agosto de 2010, 8:17 On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy. Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European, Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this anyway? And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles. That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic, but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again, that many, many people won't be able to come. Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration. It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Harel Cain, 12/08/2010 07:13: Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference. The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still, the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution. We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local inhabitants and the conflict. This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO). Nemo ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:49:15PM -0400, Nathan wrote: Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will have issues in being there; ar.*.org id.*.org fa.*.org ms.*.org sw.*.org (not all users, but many of them) We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Why not? It's as serious as the legal one. (I mean people think Israel is doing very nasty things to innocent people e.g. preventing food and medicines and killing thousands of citizens every now and then , and for them to go there is to recognize the legitimacy of what it does, and it may not be the best thing one can do!) People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets you think, come judge for yourself. Harel, you are missing the point. It isn't about how Muslims/Arabs within Israel get along. It's about the possibility of the rest of the strategic region to be there. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 12 August 2010 11:10, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will have issues in being there; So are you suggesting we cancel it? This is staggeringly unlikely to happen. Or are you suggesting something else? - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict visa policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is referring to could so easily get in - this remains to be seen. Travel from Egypt or Jordan into Israel is cheap - how does that compare with flying to Taiwan? As I have already written perhaps a dozen times on three different mailing lists, we have good connections to Israeli authorities and will do our utmost to ease the entry of whoever wishes to attend. Governments can make exceptions under special circumstances (for example, Druze people from the Golan heights routinely cross the Israeli-Syrian border). Reaching out to the Middle East is very high on our priorities. We cannot do anything, however, against such things as travel to Israel being socially unacceptable or punishable in one's home country, or against people calling for the boycott of the conference, except for expressing our regret at these phenomena. Really, please refer to my previous answers on wikimania-l and on this list. I feel that there's nothing much more to add, this is becoming repetitive. Osama, if you are serious about this, please help us form the connections and the working relations with institutions and individuals in Arab countries who are sincerely interested in attending Wikimania 2011. That help would be invaluable. Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:20 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 August 2010 11:10, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will have issues in being there; So are you suggesting we cancel it? This is staggeringly unlikely to happen. Or are you suggesting something else? - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:20:05AM +0100, David Gerard wrote: So are you suggesting we cancel it? This is staggeringly unlikely to happen. Or are you suggesting something else? I'm not. I'm saying that we need to recognize that it wasn't a good choice, and we should consider the social and political aspects of a particular host and we need to make sure that never happens again. I don't have any solution in mind for people who won't be able to attend. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. I can see why the Wikimedia Foundation may not be so interested in taking one side in any political/ethical debate outside its main mission. That's reasonable and understandable. But in my opinion the whole thing is about picking a place that is a 'good' host. I sincerely amdmit that I agree with this view: very likely, a bid for Teheran, Ramallah or even Beijing would have had lots of critics, and reasonable ones. Nevertheless, alea iacta est, and I really appreciate the willingness of the Wikimedia Israel team to help partecipation of Arab\Muslim citizens. Somebody said that is better to focus on real people interested in going to Haifa, and Harel too is right when he says that a ''bridge'' (as you, Osama) to potential participants could be very helpful. We have one year still to arrange initiatives (as a enhanced streaming\virtual coverage of the event, with chats, skype calls and so on) and succeed difficulties, so is better to try. Aubrey ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 01:31:46PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote: Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict visa policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is referring to could so easily get in - this remains to be seen. In Saudi Arabia it's pretty much about the time needed to get a visa from the US, but the United States is generally 'more welcoming' than Europe (e.g. they usually give multiple, three-year visa, AFAIK). -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
--- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org escribió: Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy. And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles. Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration. If anything, it should be taken as an integrating experience, such as it was for so many Wikimedians to be in Egypt, Taiwan, the Americas or Europe, getting to know people from around the globe. Cheers, MarianoC.- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Well I want to attend Wikimania in Israel, but in all likelihood might not be able to even after not coming from the middle-east specifically. I like many others travel frequently to UAE and Saudi Arabia(rarely), as important as Wikimania might be the idea of not travelling there for work, family etc. would be a big problem. I like many others would need a visa, my country has good diplomatic relations and a good standing with israel, but having that visa on my passport regardless of the stamp might create a problem for future travel to not just me but anyone else. This would affect not just me but Europeans and Americans if they want to go to the say Dubai for example, they might have trouble with the same issues. I am also concerned about being harassed or questioned unnecessarily for maybe previously travelling to these places as well. I am interested in attend wikimania but the cost might be too much for me or others like me. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 01:31:46PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote: Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict visa policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is referring to could so easily get in - this remains to be seen. In Saudi Arabia it's pretty much about the time needed to get a visa from the US, but the United States is generally 'more welcoming' than Europe (e.g. they usually give multiple, three-year visa, AFAIK). -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy. Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European, Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this anyway? And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles. That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic, but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again, that many, many people won't be able to come. Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration. It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
People are raising there worries about Wikimania being hosted in Israel (me included), but one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to raise their voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams with whatever questions that we may have in mind. Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:17:37 +0300 From: osa...@gnu.org To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy. Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European, Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this anyway? And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles. That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic, but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again, that many, many people won't be able to come. Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration. It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I like many others would need a visa, my country has good diplomatic relations and a good standing with israel, but having that visa on my passport regardless of the stamp might create a problem for future travel to not just me but anyone else. This would affect not just me but Europeans and Americans if they want to go to the say Dubai for example, they might have trouble with the same issues. I am also concerned about being harassed or questioned unnecessarily for maybe previously travelling to these places as well. I am interested in attend wikimania but the cost might be too much for me or others like me. UAE is no problem. For travelling to Saudi Arabia, just get a new passport upon your return home. I would be much more concerned with the heat. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Osama, I'm afraid your view is very self-centric. We Southamericans have a really hard time getting into USA; and I'm sure many couldn't go to that Wikimania because of visa problems. As many couldn't go to Thailand because because of economic reasons. And some didn't go to Egypt because of religious issues. There is always something that will prevent some people to assist to a Wikimania; that's why we rotate the host! I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea). Please, let's concentrate on making life easier for those with problems who *do* want to assist to Wikimania 2011; the rest is just wining, and trying to take political advantage of the current situation. MarianoC.- --- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org escribió: De: Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org Asunto: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Para: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Fecha: jueves, 12 de agosto de 2010, 8:17 On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy. Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European, Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this anyway? And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles. That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic, but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again, that many, many people won't be able to come. Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration. It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:40:37AM +, Abbas Mahmoud wrote: one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to raise their voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams with whatever questions that we may have in mind. True. That was a valid point I agreed with when I talked to some people at Wikimania Poland about this issue. I wonder if we can do more to publicize the process and to get more opinions involved. The only thing I'm trying to do is to explain why Israel is not a good choice, why I cannot get involved and how we can avoid such a conversation in the coming Wikimanias. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Osama: exactly. Be sure to raise any issues early. Although it's still too early, i'm already keeping my eye on the Wikimania 2012 meta page and some bids have been made from Sydney, Stanford, and Barcelona/Andorra;-) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:46:33 +0300 From: osa...@gnu.org To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:40:37AM +, Abbas Mahmoud wrote: one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to raise their voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams with whatever questions that we may have in mind. True. That was a valid point I agreed with when I talked to some people at Wikimania Poland about this issue. I wonder if we can do more to publicize the process and to get more opinions involved. The only thing I'm trying to do is to explain why Israel is not a good choice, why I cannot get involved and how we can avoid such a conversation in the coming Wikimanias. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:43:13AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote: Osama, I'm afraid your view is very self-centric. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it's also what the people at ar (and probably at fa/id/ms) think. We Southamericans have a really hard time getting into USA; and I'm sure many couldn't go to that Wikimania because of visa problems. Good to know, but it isn't about the US here and I don't think we should be discussing this right now right here. many couldn't go to Thailand because because of economic reasons. For that there is a scholarship. The economic reason isn't something to take too seriously for one host because, as far I know, many of us won't be able to go anywhere outside their country without the scholarship. And some didn't go to Egypt because of religious issues. Refusing to visit a place for religious reasons is personal-dependent. There is always something that will prevent some people to assist to a Wikimania; that's why we rotate the host! Right, but it's only an issue if that's true for so many people for meaningful reasons. When it was in Egypt I was told that half of the attendees were Arabs. They *want* to come so they shouldn't be ignored. I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea). I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
-Original Message- From: Osama Khalid Date: 2010. augusztus 12. 14:02 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea). I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport. If you can travel to Israel but then you are afraid of problems getting into a third country (that is not your home country and not Israel) than getting a new passport after you get back home is the obvious solution. (Obviously you have to calculate in the cost of the new passport – which is usually higher with lost passports than with expired ones – into your travel budget, but the fact that you can do this will boil this issue down to one of personal choice and financial standing. Travelling to third countries is also a personal choice, so obviously this extra cost shouldn't be seen as the organizers' or the Wikimania jury's fault in any way.) On an other note I believe this thread is fastly losing its merit: Wikimania will happen in Israel in 2011 and it will happen in some other part of the world in 2012. Let's stop bemoaning the decision and start gathering the people who want to go to Haifa (a beautiful city, indeed) – I am sure the organizers will do their utmost to solve any and all travel difficulties of the people who actually want to participate in the conference. The conference will only get better if we help achieve their goal of a diverse audience, instead of discouraging potential attendees by complaining even before any problems do surface. Best regards, Bence ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I'd just like to repeat the fact that Israel willingly stamps a separate insert page on request, so passports are not stamped if the passport bearer's doesn't want it. In that case you have no reason to lose it. Same should hold for a visa (visitors from US, EU and other countries don't require a visa), we're checking this out. Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote: -Original Message- From: Osama Khalid Date: 2010. augusztus 12. 14:02 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea). I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport. If you can travel to Israel but then you are afraid of problems getting into a third country (that is not your home country and not Israel) than getting a new passport after you get back home is the obvious solution. (Obviously you have to calculate in the cost of the new passport – which is usually higher with lost passports than with expired ones – into your travel budget, but the fact that you can do this will boil this issue down to one of personal choice and financial standing. Travelling to third countries is also a personal choice, so obviously this extra cost shouldn't be seen as the organizers' or the Wikimania jury's fault in any way.) On an other note I believe this thread is fastly losing its merit: Wikimania will happen in Israel in 2011 and it will happen in some other part of the world in 2012. Let's stop bemoaning the decision and start gathering the people who want to go to Haifa (a beautiful city, indeed) – I am sure the organizers will do their utmost to solve any and all travel difficulties of the people who actually want to participate in the conference. The conference will only get better if we help achieve their goal of a diverse audience, instead of discouraging potential attendees by complaining even before any problems do surface. Best regards, Bence ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. Aubrey ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100 From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team will still make every effort to include as many people as possible, just in case you aren't 100% correct. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100 From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). Image by FlamingText.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300 From: moushi...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100 From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni zanni.andre...@gmail.com wrote: DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-) I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants), but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011. I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( ) about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere? Thank you in advance. I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the issue certainly isn't being ignored. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Hi all, Thanks for bringing this up - although I think this belongs on wikimania-l and not necessarily here. I believe we'll be posting a FAQ dedicated to these issues quite soon on our website, http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org, as this matter has been brought up a number of times already. I'll try to sum it up quickly for now: * We will be delighted to have as high a participation as possible from the entire Middle East. This is really, really important to us, more than everything else. You can visit our website and see that most of it has already been translated into Arabic. * Unfortunately, ME politics is often plagued by tactics such as banning and boycotting. No matter how good our intentions, I'm sorry to say there will be people there who will still abstain from coming to the conference for their own reasons, and there's not too much we can do about it. If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality. * Wikimedia is not about politics, Wikimedia Israel doesn't represent the Israeli government (or any other political entity), and we're trying to focus this on free knowledge and a way for people to meet and interact, not on politics. * Wikimania 2011 will be held in Haifa, a city which is home to both Jews and Arabs. We'll be promoting it (also) using bilingual posters and brochures, and will try to reach the very large population of Israeli-Arab students in Haifa's academic institutions. * Israeli Arabs can (of course!!) reach the conference like any other Israeli - they just need to get to the venue, on foot, by car, by train or by bus. * Palestinians living in the West Bank enter Israel by the thousands every day. Yes, they need a permit for that. Obtaining that permit is a routine operation. Yes, some difficulties might come up there, we'll use our contacts within Israeli authorities to try to facilitate this as much as possible, including issuing letters of invitation and contacting the authorities well in advance. In fact, Israel might be one of the easier destination for Palestinians to reach. * Palestinians living in Gaza will have a harder time entering Israel. We're looking at various possibilities to make this possible, should there be any real demand for this. One possibility is for them to enter Egypt via the border crossing in Rafah (which Egypt usually closes) and to reach Israel via Egypt. * Having said that, we know of *no* Palestinian (or Israeli-Arab) Wikimedians, despite repeated attempts over the years to locate some. If someone knows any, please let us know! * Citizens of other countries can fly into Israel or enter Israel through the open border crossings with Jordan and Egypt. Israel of course recognizes the passports of countries with which it has diplomatic relations, even only partial relations, such as Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers and others. Please refer to http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas. * For some countries which do not recognize Israel like Syria, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, entry will be more difficult, but there have been sporadic entries from these countries in the past, and should any participant from these countries wish to attend Wikimania, we will do our utmost to assist. We have a letter of support from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and exceptions can always be made at border crossings if approved from on-high. I'd be happy to keep this discussion constructive and not let it deteriorate into a flame war. Of course if anyone has further questions, we'll be happy to answer them. Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry and exit, for any visitor that requests it (Westerners who work/travel to countries like Iran will not want an Israeli stamp on their passport). As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies, or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within the organizing team's sphere of influence. The only thing we can do about it is hand out Don't photograph me labels or anonymous name tags to participants who want them, much like happened in WM2007 in Taipei (for some visitors from the PR of China). Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300 From: moushirah at gmail.com To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Thanks Harel for your email.. On 8/11/10, Harel Cain harel.c...@gmail.com wrote: Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry and exit, for any visitor that requests it A confirmation for the possibility of getting the stamp on a separate paper will be helpful for people who might have fear of losing their jobs in UAE or other gulf countries or of being banned from religious rituals in Saudi Arabia. As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies, or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within the organizing team's sphere of influence. As I put it before it is a complex and complicated situation which I believe is better discussed without any judgments on politics, governments or social reactions. For participants who might have any conservations on going to Israel, attending Wikimania will have its own cons and pros which will remain up to the personal evaluation of the attendant, after all. Good luck with all.. M Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300 From: moushirah at gmail.com To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident of an Arab or Muslim nation. I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make it Haifa or not. M -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. Hey, isn't this already progress when they acknowledge the soil to be Israeli? :) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). At least some states are offering secondary passports to their citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps. Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I think Moushira is right: as much as there are external threats (which are being curbed in one way or another), it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person wants to go. Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:45:44 +0200 From: mathias.schind...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel). At least some states are offering secondary passports to their citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps. Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I absolutely agree that this is a complicated matter and would differ from country to country. the thing is the foundations goal of expanding in the global south does place some priority on the middle east, it would be rather unfortunate that most of the people might not be able to make it to the conference. I also understand that the organizers are making a great effort to be as inclusive as possible, but I think we have to realize its going to be what its going to be. Many people might not be able to attend this year. Its not only an issue for the resident but also for people who travel or work in countries which might discriminate against an Israeli stamp on their passport. I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? Regards Theo On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Nathan wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil. That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team will still make every effort to include as many people as possible, just in case you aren't 100% correct. Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 8/11/10, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: I believe the difficulty of getting a visa varies from one country to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and ethical levels. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure about Irak for instance): Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen, Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution. There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and Indonesia. You are right about the need to check on the list update. For instance as far as I know, Bahrain has no problem with Israeli stamped passport or nationals. (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper without restrictions?). thanks M ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy moushi...@gmail.com wrote: (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper without restrictions?). They do have this page on Wikimania2011wiki already: http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Passport_stamping -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Again the thing is the difference between the two according to the visa stamping info on the website, most of these countries- actually a lot of countries are going to need a visa to enter israel regardless of their relations. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going to be there. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM, theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ruwrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400 From: pute...@mccme.ru Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
You are leading this into an ideological debate whoever you are, this is for people interested in attending wikimania getting to attend wikimania-thats it. whatever your beliefs are this is not the forum for it. Troll elsewhere. On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:57 PM, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Not to mention that the visa itself has to be on the passport and remain there, no matter where the stamp goes. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.comwrote: Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400 From: pute...@mccme.ru Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about two separate things? In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry. It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new passport or a return certificate. To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:34:12 +, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? I am not sure about your scenario. If X does not recognize Israel obviously you can not fly from X to Israel. If Emirates do recognize Israel, you can fly from Dubai to Tel-Aviv (Haifa does not have the airport) and back. Having two Emirates stamps and nothing in between is a serious problem as far as X is concerned, and I believe it can only be solved by losing a passport in Dubai prior to traveling to X. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:37:43 +0400 From: pute...@mccme.ru Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:34:12 +, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Assess the following scenario: If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? I am not sure about your scenario. If X does not recognize Israel obviously you can not fly from X to Israel. If Emirates do recognize Israel, you can fly from Dubai to Tel-Aviv (Haifa does not have the airport) and back. Having two Emirates stamps and nothing in between is a serious problem as far as X is concerned, and I believe it can only be solved by losing a passport in Dubai prior to traveling to X. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
--- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: From: wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 1:27 PM Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: Isn't there supposed to be a boycott? http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation ___ This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? There seem to regularly be similar issues. Boston there was people from some countries who could not get visas - People have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not everyone would be allowed to enter Taipei there were diffculties for some PRC residents. Alexandria there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of LBGT Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country where LBGT folks are persecuted These issues are not really good arguments for never having Wikimania in certain countries. They are good arguments for rotating Wikimania amoung a large variety of different sorts of countries. Birgitte SB ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:54:00 +, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? No, I do not think this is a problem. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 11 August 2010 19:54, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Why would the embassy give someone a visa in a way they couldn't actually use? It would be pointless. Since embassies do hand out visas in that manner, we can safely assume airlines accept them. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live in a country with no Israeli embassies. Further to that, there are actually a lot of prominent countries from which no visa is needed to enter Israel: http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IsraelVisaPolicy.PNG I really think that theoretical discussions on contrived scenarios on how to enter Israel are rather inane and do not further the conference in any way. We can and will offer specific assistance to people with specific, concrete difficulties, working with Israeli authorities to achieve the special exemptions needed for people who actually want to attend the conference but live in a place that makes it difficult for them to do so. Millions of tourists from dozens of counties enter Israel every year safely and smoothly. Flying to Israel is even considered especially safe, because of effective security procedures (as opposed to security theater). See y'all in Haifa! Harel Cain Wikimania 2011 team On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 11 August 2010 19:54, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Why would the embassy give someone a visa in a way they couldn't actually use? It would be pointless. Since embassies do hand out visas in that manner, we can safely assume airlines accept them. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Birgitte SB wrote: --- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? There seem to regularly be similar issues. Boston there was people from some countries who could not get visas - People have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not everyone would be allowed to enter Taipei there were diffculties for some PRC residents. Alexandria there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of LBGT Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country where LBGT folks are persecuted As I said one has to decide where you stand on issues of persecution. Which I guess comes down to whether or not you consider the persecution to be such that one ought to deny oneself a bit of pleasure. It is a difficult decision for sure, one that I agonize over whenever I have to forgo an After Eight Mint: http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the 2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government and their laws and regulations? Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 11 August 2010 19:27, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? I suggest ignoring the troll henceforth - this poster has only ever joined threads on this list in order to try to derail them. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 8/12/10, Mathias Schindler mathias.schind...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud abbas...@hotmail.com wrote: Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper. Since the country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper? Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the 2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government and their laws and regulations? This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. The issue is quite complicated, complex and extremely relative. Accusing some governments of being oppressive opens the door to counter accusation against Israel and we will end up in an unpleasant loop. Even within Arab nations who have direct flights to Israel, the decision to attend has its own considerations, which makes this issue a complete relative and personal decision. Thanks for understanding. M ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy moushi...@gmail.com wrote: This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. Agreed, we can leave that up to someone else. So back to the issue: a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't? b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as humanly possible? Mathias ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
David Gerard wrote: On 11 August 2010 19:27, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote: One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not? I suggest ignoring the troll henceforth - this poster has only ever joined threads on this list in order to try to derail them. Ticket booked? Now if I were trolling I'd be advising Ahmadinejad or Assad to have a bunch of people applying for visas and turning up at the airport or at the Jordanian border. When is the date again? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Mathias Schindler, 11/08/2010 23:39: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy moushi...@gmail.com wrote: This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. Agreed, we can leave that up to someone else. So back to the issue: a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't? b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as humanly possible? A centralnotice to ar wikis and other wikis to selected IPs? (Does GeoIP work?) Nemo ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. I can see why the Wikimedia Foundation may not be so interested in taking one side in any political/ethical debate outside its main mission. That's reasonable and understandable. But in my opinion the whole thing is about picking a place that is a 'good' host. Whether we can do something to solve the major issues of Wikimania 2011 or not, we should seriously think of adding a standard for Wikimania hosts: that they need to be generally easily reachable for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community. Poland was great. I loved it. I mean I really loved having meetings in such 'peaceful' countries without such debates. Why not? There are many of them. [Historically, the part below was written before the one that's above, something you may feel and notice! :)] This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent? That does not make any sense. Many people cannot, legally and socially, go to Israel and that's a fact not merely an opinion or a (legitimate and reasonable) choice. Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I would need to check. I dunno about Turkey, but no, it's impossible for people from the other countries to visit Israel for social reasons and these reasons cannot be ignored. it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person wants to go. Sure, it *is* your personal decision to make yourself at risk of serious consequences. Read below. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going to be there. That, simply, changes everything. As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live in a country with no Israeli embassies. The page doesn't say anything about Visas on a blank paper, but only the stamps. Also Passport stamping talks about those countries may also search for Jordanian/Egyptian exit stamps from land borders with Israel. -- Osama Khalid English-to-Arabic translator and programmer. http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote: If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality. I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.com wrote: Mathias Schindler, 11/08/2010 23:39: a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't? b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as humanly possible? A centralnotice to ar wikis and other wikis to selected IPs? (Does GeoIP work?) Not at the moment, but Tomasz and Ryan at the Foundation are working on getting this working. :-) -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Hm, Nathan, this is a vast mis-characterization and comparison of other countries' political circumstances and Israel/Muslim issues. Taiwan might come slightly close but its political/socio-economic ramifications are different. I would hardly characterize the predicament both Jews and Muslims are in as a social consideration. That's like comparing gay marriage to wearing a hat indoors :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a natural matter, really. People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets you think, come judge for yourself. Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid osa...@gnu.org wrote: My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous for so many people. Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies. Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc. shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes, some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an inescapable fact. We shouldn't let social considerations (i.e. the decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed organizers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Hm, Nathan, this is a vast mis-characterization and comparison of other countries' political circumstances and Israel/Muslim issues. Taiwan might come slightly close but its political/socio-economic ramifications are different. I would hardly characterize the predicament both Jews and Muslims are in as a social consideration. That's like comparing gay marriage to wearing a hat indoors :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Harel Cain harel.c...@gmail.com wrote: In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a natural matter, really. People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets you think, come judge for yourself. Harel Oh, I know you're absolutely right, Harel. I come from the American South, and other Americans blur the racism line in their perception of reality here. I am certain that at the root of it everyone will be nice and welcoming. We're discussing the relevant, non-native socio-political concerns. These shouldn't exist, anyone should be able to go to Haifa. Unfortunately, real life doesn't recognize circumstance :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference. The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still, the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution. We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem... Harel On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote: If someone doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come here and change their minds about Israeli reality. I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website. Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem... Harel I have visited Bethlehem on my own on a couple of occasions, and I agree that this is an interesting tourist destination, but as far as I understand Israeli citizens are not allowed in (Zone A or smth), which may make the things messy. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
