Re: Code Of Conduct
On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...] If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is. If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term Open Source and call the operating system Linux, instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the minority groups in question. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code Of Conduct
quote who=Yavor Doganov If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that many developers use the term Open Source and call the operating system Linux, instead of GNU or GNU/Linux. Some of them were even excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining non-free. If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people, particularly the minority groups in question. Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate* about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not* have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for *anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda. - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ (Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback). - Bastien Nocera ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code Of Conduct
ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman: On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by us stating that you now are part of a community with a code of conduct. Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so be it. IMHO. I don't agree. Every community has a code of conduct, implied or explicit, IMO. Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I don't see this as a realistic concern. ANY change or statement with a policy feel carries the risk of alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is better. I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in Copenhagen. My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS. I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic. Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. Besides I find that it is not clever not to be able to accept the normal way of defining a well functioning democracy for all. Social rules and ethics will definitely be a competition parameter also for peoples personal choice of software now and in the future. As an aside, I think the gender issue is important, and probably does reflect some cultural issues within our community (GNOME and the FOSS community in general). Members of a community rarely understand the aspects of their culture that cause others to be alienated or disinterested, even if they understand why they themselves feel included and motivated. I fully agree with Bill and others here and I think we have to establish a gender action plan within GNOME, Ubuntu etc. We have got the opportunity to start this good trend! I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhetmenu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) One of the purposes is to get more women in to research and teaching. Changing the mono culture is a vital goal. But to summon up what has happened in this debate: Most of the persons who has expressed themselves in this tread are positive to Murrays suggestion. So I think we should go for it. We might call it GNOME Ethics if rules has a disturbing ring to it. Anne ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Anne wrote: [snip] I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhetmenu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the Flosspolls report: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg1.html At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do this. Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne wrote: [snip] I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhetmenu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code Of Conduct
On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote: Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400 From: Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: foundation-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code), women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe they consider open source more as working than as a hobby or a way social networking or even as a way to educate oneself. Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an open source activity. That term excludes the idealism of free software, and invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms -- which is what these women then do. Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for everyone. If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say _Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to come up with different terminology? -- Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Hi, Luis Villa wrote: Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? Cheers, Dave. -- David Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles. Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly. For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low. IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying Be nice to each other with rhetoric. On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: On 6/1/06, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Luis Villa wrote: Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 16:27 +0300, skrev Baris Cicek: Actually, it should be someone who is able to detect possible obstacles that put Asians or Women out of GNOME (or in general Free Software). I doubt that anyone have any emprical study about that. But is it harsh and rude behavior of developers or the community? Or technical limits? Or even communication problems? (ie. English knowledge or something). First thing is to come up with a reasonable problems that new comers would come across. And later people should follow a pathway to get rid of these obstacles. Actually Code of Conduct may only be successful for new comers if we detect those problems correctly. For that reason, ideas of the fresh community members is more important. If you're experienced then either you did not have any problem or you might even forgot those problems you'd encountered in past. Though, you might still remember old days, but chances are low. IMHO, Code Of Conduct (or GNOME Ethics) should be written for that very reason. Experienced members of the community might and would forget the problems for newcomers. Something should remind them. But still first thing to do is to detect obstacles first. Else, outcome of this work, won't get further than saying Be nice to each other with rhetoric. I agree. A question is when do you feel you belong to the GNOME community? When there is a critical mass that is just like you and when you feel comfortable that a larger group share your way of thinking and ways of communicating? Anne On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 09:05 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: On 6/1/06, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Luis Villa wrote: Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek? A female geek? Luis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 08:13 -0400, skrev Luis Villa: On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne wrote: [snip] I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make some cultural changes. I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan: http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhetmenu=org I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish into a language you understand.) [snip] Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you with it, but you need to create it and drive it. Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*- which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by someone with such experience. The FLOSSPOLS report was so eyeopening because it was written by a man who had to learn about these matters first and had a professional scientific experience and tool case to use. I will work with the whole of the women in FLOSS community as well as with the persons who wrote the FLOSSPOLS reports and others who have written scientific reports and with those of you who are interested. Just because you can't cover the whole spectrum personally does not mean that I am not entitled to have an opinion. I have experience in gender issues on a professional basis in the Nordic Countries, EU, and UN which might help. I attended the UN conference in Beijing representing the Nordic Council. Besides Luis I have manufactured a FLOSS nerd many years ago so I have access to free in house expertise on the technical matters. Have you by the way had time to read the FLOSSPOLS report yourself? Anne ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code Of Conduct
Ar Tue, May 30, 2006 at 01:04:43PM +0200, ysgrifennodd Murray Cumming: I don't think we need a whole organisation to police it. At the least, it should just be how we expect people to behave on mailing lists and IRC and it could be up to the administrator of that list or channel to decide whether somone's conduct is unacceptable. But maybe some people would be reassured by the existence of some group that they could go to in extreme circumstances. Here's a simple start: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct What do you think? What else would you like to see there? I think this is a long-overdue thing to do. I also think that there is no fun being part of a community which is actually arguing the toss on whether we think people should be courteous to each other within this community is a good thing or not. Telsa ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Code Of Conduct
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 13:23 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. I don't think its has hardened as much as grown older. Going back 5 years we where 'all' in our early/mid twenties or late teens with a lot extra energy and exploring a new frontier. Today a lot of the same people are around, getting close to or having passed thirty. Hair is thinning, greying or receding, bellies growing and the long term effect of a coke and pizza diet is taking its toll on both mind and body. These people have grown wise with age, but also their patience and energy to help newbie number 1000 who asks a less informed question have fallen. So answers tend either to not be forthcoming or being short often feeling a bit curt, maybe just a 'sorry WONTFIX'. The regrowth of younger developers, who might have the energy to devote to helping the lost noobs, tend to want to defer answering questions to the old wizards in the fear of saying something wrong as things have also grown more complicated since those early days. I don't think we can solve this apart from enforcing retirement from the community once passed 30 to keep our average young and energetic :) Christian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the women in GNOME issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Running around shouting pants off is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. Also if Code of Conduct is too strong then Expected Behaviour perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with Code of Conduct in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. It isn't too much to ask for people to keep other stuff elsewhere, or to engage in other incompatible activities from a non-gnome email address or on a different irc network. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: On Iau, 2006-06-01 at 14:33 +0200, Murray Cumming wrote: Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who most most obviously wants this should be the person trying to make it happen. I'd be wary of pursuing just the women in GNOME issue, because many of the same things put off far more than just women. Yes. Yes, that's why the gender issue is only one (possible) part of the code of conduct, though it's the reason that I got around to finally pushing it. But Anne is asking specifically for a gender policy/plan, apparently separate to that. I'd just like her to make a suggestion. I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. Running around shouting pants off is not, for example, very compatible with the Japanese cultural expectations. I don't expect it either. Also if Code of Conduct is too strong then Expected Behaviour perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with Code of Conduct in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Anne ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 22:21 +0200, Anne Østergaard wrote: tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: On Thu, 2006-06-01 at 14:57 +0100, Alan Cox wrote: [...] Also if Code of Conduct is too strong then Expected Behaviour perhaps. Personally I don't see a problem with Code of Conduct in that it deals with acting for, speaking for, representing or being part of Gnome, or when using its facilities. I fully agree. Some part of this already exists for a long time ago. But, at the moment it is only applied to mail aliases: http://developer.gnome.org/doc/policies/accounts/mail.html The proposal is a kind of extension of that policy, but in the other way (saying what is good). -- Germán Poó-Caamaño http://www.ubiobio.cl/~gpoo/ Concepción - Chile ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
Hi, Anne Østergaard wrote: tor, 01 06 2006 kl. 18:57 +0200, skrev Murray Cumming: I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- What I've seen shows that women are not participating in the community - this is not necessarily the same thing as being excluded (which implies some kind of conscious decision on the part of the community). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lyon, France ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)
I think it is a natural step to take after the EU and FLOSSPOLS report has shown that women are being excluded from the community.- This rubs me the wrong way. It's not like we're actively working to exclude women, Asians, or Martians from GNOME. Nor are we actively trying to make GNOME a boys-only club. Simply put, there's no conscious, malicious intent behind the disproportionate male/female ratio, or Western/Asian ratio. And I think that this matters... If we want to se some change in attitudes and behavior in GNOME and FLOSS, and se more women involved in the future in all parts and capacities of our projects, we need to find out why only a little more than 1% of are women. ... because I don't believe that actively pursuing diversity for its own sake is a valid goal. I may sound myopic here, but I don't see what the goal of recruiting women qua women or Asians qua Asians gains us as a community. I refuse to measure diversity based on one's genitals or skin color. [However, (for example) recruiting Asians as an attempt to understand their needs, skills, and mentality in order to acquire a greater Asian market share, however, could be ok. Asians are the means. A rockin' version of GNOME on lots of Asian computers is the end.] Instituting open-door policies, non-discriminatory policies/codes of conduct, and the like are worthwhile goals in-and-of themselves. They advertise what the core tenets of our community are, and this is something we should become better at. But one should not necessarily abandon established (nay, endearing) traits of our community just to grow it larger. You'd give up something concretely cool about the community for some undefined, possibly non-existant benefit. And that ain't diversity, it's its opposite. I'd rather see us resolve to do a better job of marketing how open, cool, and charismatic we are as a community, and let the chips fall where they will. Get the word out to as many people as practicable, welcome everyone, and let the diversity come to us as an organic result of our general openness and coolness. Where we have some specific goal in mind, change as necessary to meet that goal. But don't change for change's sake alone. Recruit interesting people. Recruit smart, talented people. Recruit people useful for your ends. Welcome all people. But don't recruit genitals and skin colors. They're neither interesting nor useful for free software's purposes. Justice is blind, and so should we be. Best, Dom -- Counting bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drums. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Isn't and Wasn't Rules [Was: Code Of Conduct]
quote who=Jeff Waugh
I think a fun way to deal with this criticism ('cos it's valid and
expected) is to actually make it a Very GNOMEy Code of Conduct. Let's not
beat around the bush - first point: Be Excellent to Each Other.
*guitar lick*
(added this point to the wiki page)
- Jeff
--
linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/
I don't want the world, I just want your half. - They Might Be
Giants, Ana Ng
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