Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Paul Findon]

On 5 Dec 2005, at 19:03, Joe Malin wrote:


They would be bigger than JPG.

Are you suggesting that GIF or JPG are *not* used by publishing
professionals?


No, I'm just saying that pro print publishers generally prefer EPS and 
TIFF because of their heritage and foolproof output on PostScript 
output devices. EPS files being nuggets of PostScript (format developed 
by Adobe, Aldus, and Altsys); LZW decompression for TIFF files (format 
developed by Aldus and, surprisingly, Microsoft) was wired into 
PostScript Level 2 and later versions.


Obviously, other formats work, too, but I don't like last-minute 
surprises, and try to avoid miles of film going in the trash because a 
naughty file tripped up our PostScript imagesetter. I learned the hard 
way 15 years ago with some home-brewed PostScript graphics...


This may not be so relevant if you output to PDF, but since Distiller 
is essentially a soft PostScript RIP, I always feed it EPS and TIFF 
instead of lossy formats.


Old habits die hard, I guess. And, no. I don't use TrueType fonts ;-)

Paul

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RE: FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Joe Malin]

This is good to know! I have worked many times with graphics designers,
but I haven't ever had to print a book myself. At my previous position,
we published HTML and PDF, and I will probably do the same here. For web
images, I use GIF for illustrations and JPG for photos. 

Joe


 Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: Paul Findon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:54 AM
To: Joe Malin
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)

On 5 Dec 2005, at 19:03, Joe Malin wrote:

 They would be bigger than JPG.

 Are you suggesting that GIF or JPG are *not* used by publishing 
 professionals?

No, I'm just saying that pro print publishers generally prefer EPS and
TIFF because of their heritage and foolproof output on PostScript output
devices. EPS files being nuggets of PostScript (format developed by
Adobe, Aldus, and Altsys); LZW decompression for TIFF files (format
developed by Aldus and, surprisingly, Microsoft) was wired into
PostScript Level 2 and later versions.

Obviously, other formats work, too, but I don't like last-minute
surprises, and try to avoid miles of film going in the trash because a
naughty file tripped up our PostScript imagesetter. I learned the hard
way 15 years ago with some home-brewed PostScript graphics...

This may not be so relevant if you output to PDF, but since Distiller is
essentially a soft PostScript RIP, I always feed it EPS and TIFF instead
of lossy formats.

Old habits die hard, I guess. And, no. I don't use TrueType fonts ;-)

Paul

___


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FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Paul Findon]

On 5 Dec 2005, at 19:03, Joe Malin wrote:

> They would be bigger than JPG.
>
> Are you suggesting that GIF or JPG are *not* used by publishing
> professionals?

No, I'm just saying that pro print publishers generally prefer EPS and 
TIFF because of their heritage and foolproof output on PostScript 
output devices. EPS files being nuggets of PostScript (format developed 
by Adobe, Aldus, and Altsys); LZW decompression for TIFF files (format 
developed by Aldus and, surprisingly, Microsoft) was wired into 
PostScript Level 2 and later versions.

Obviously, other formats work, too, but I don't like last-minute 
surprises, and try to avoid miles of film going in the trash because a 
naughty file tripped up our PostScript imagesetter. I learned the hard 
way 15 years ago with some home-brewed PostScript graphics...

This may not be so relevant if you output to PDF, but since Distiller 
is essentially a soft PostScript RIP, I always feed it EPS and TIFF 
instead of lossy formats.

Old habits die hard, I guess. And, no. I don't use TrueType fonts ;-)

Paul

FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Joe Malin]

This is good to know! I have worked many times with graphics designers,
but I haven't ever had to print a book myself. At my previous position,
we published HTML and PDF, and I will probably do the same here. For web
images, I use GIF for illustrations and JPG for photos. 

Joe


 Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
jmalin at tuvox.com 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: Paul Findon [mailto:pfin...@infopage.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:54 AM
To: Joe Malin
Cc: rinnie1 at yahoo.com; framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)

On 5 Dec 2005, at 19:03, Joe Malin wrote:

> They would be bigger than JPG.
>
> Are you suggesting that GIF or JPG are *not* used by publishing 
> professionals?

No, I'm just saying that pro print publishers generally prefer EPS and
TIFF because of their heritage and foolproof output on PostScript output
devices. EPS files being nuggets of PostScript (format developed by
Adobe, Aldus, and Altsys); LZW decompression for TIFF files (format
developed by Aldus and, surprisingly, Microsoft) was wired into
PostScript Level 2 and later versions.

Obviously, other formats work, too, but I don't like last-minute
surprises, and try to avoid miles of film going in the trash because a
naughty file tripped up our PostScript imagesetter. I learned the hard
way 15 years ago with some home-brewed PostScript graphics...

This may not be so relevant if you output to PDF, but since Distiller is
essentially a soft PostScript RIP, I always feed it EPS and TIFF instead
of lossy formats.

Old habits die hard, I guess. And, no. I don't use TrueType fonts ;-)

Paul

FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Dov Isaacs]

To clear up some misconceptions:

(1) EPS (Encapsulated PostScript) is a file format developed by Adobe,
not by Aldus 
or Altsys. It may contain almost any combination of PostScript graphic
objects including
text, vector, and raster.

(2) PostScript Level 2 fully supports JPEG compression. An EPS file can
readily 
contain JPEG-compressed images and compliant PostScript Level 2 (and
PostScript 3)
RIPs must fully support decoding of same. This has been part of the
PostScript standard
for nearly 15 years now! Note that EPS from Photoshop can include
JPEG-compressed
raster images in PostScript. Thus, if you have a RIP that cannot handle
JPEG-
compressed images, you really do have a very out-of-spec, defective RIP.
(For what
it is worth, we have no record of any problems with Adobe
PostScript-based RIPs
handling JPEG-compressed images in PostScript Level 2 or PostScript 3!)

(3) With most layout programs, for raster images other than those that
"come in" via
EPS, it is irrelevant whether the initial format is JPEG, GIF,
ZIP-compressed TIFF,
LZW-compressed TIFF, etc. The layout program typically decompresses the
image
and then outputs the resultant raster in a common format either through
directly or
driver-generated PostScript. This is indeed true for FrameMaker!

(4) The primary issue against use of GIF or JPEG formats is that of
lossiness,
either of detail or of color, and of imaging artifacts. For photographic
images at
reasonably high resolution, use of JPEG compression at maximum quality
is
typically not a problem. JPEG compression is a problem when trying to
use
it to present text or vector artwork as a compressed raster.

(5) The TrueType issue has been discussed ad nauseum. There is no good
technical reason to avoid properly created TrueType fonts from reputable
sources.
Within Adobe, we see as many problems from improperly created Type 1
fonts
as we do from improperly created TrueType fonts.

(6) Making blanket assertions about general "unreliability" of JPEG or
TrueType
as formats for raster compression and font technology respectively tends
to hurt 
the credibility of those who make such assertions.





From: framers-bounces+isaacs=adobe.com at lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+isaacs=adobe.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Findon
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:54 AM
To: Joe Malin
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
    Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)



On 5 Dec 2005, at 19:03, Joe Malin wrote:

> They would be bigger than JPG.
>
> Are you suggesting that GIF or JPG are *not* used by
publishing
> professionals?

No, I'm just saying that pro print publishers generally prefer
EPS and
TIFF because of their heritage and foolproof output on
PostScript
output devices. EPS files being nuggets of PostScript (format
developed
by Adobe, Aldus, and Altsys); LZW decompression for TIFF files
(format
developed by Aldus and, surprisingly, Microsoft) was wired into
PostScript Level 2 and later versions.

Obviously, other formats work, too, but I don't like last-minute
surprises, and try to avoid miles of film going in the trash
because a
naughty file tripped up our PostScript imagesetter. I learned
the hard
way 15 years ago with some home-brewed PostScript graphics...

This may not be so relevant if you output to PDF, but since
Distiller
is essentially a soft PostScript RIP, I always feed it EPS and
TIFF
instead of lossy formats.

Old habits die hard, I guess. And, no. I don't use TrueType
fonts ;-)

Paul


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Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Paul Findon]

On 5 Dec 2005, at 15:38, Rene S. wrote:

Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't 
figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I 
insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM 
file about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!


Why not convert the file to one of the formats commonly used by 
publishing professionals, such as EPS or TIFF. Just a thought.


Paul
http://www.infopage.net/fmforosx/

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RE: FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Joe Malin]

Well, you could try sending me the files... I don't mind 
taking a look at it. You might be hesitant to reveal proprietary info to me, 
though. In which case, I understand. At least try sending me the .JPG 
file.

Joe

TuVox, 
Inc.
19050 
Pruneridge Avenue Suite 150, Cupertino, CA 95014-0715

  
  
Joe Malin
  
Technical Writer
  
(408)625.1623
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
www.tuvox.com
  
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and 
  do not necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.


  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Rene S.Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 7:38 AMTo: 
  framers@lists.FrameUsers.comSubject: RE: FM bloat (NO 
  PDF)
  
  Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I 
  still can't figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I 
  insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM file 
  about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!
  
  Help.. anyone?
  
  Scratching my head:-\
  Rene
  
  -Original Message-From: Joe Malin 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:58 
  PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 
  framers@lists.FrameUsers.comSubject: RE: FM  PDF 
  bloat
  Could it be that both of the problems are due to multiple 
  facets? You may have your FM set to create FrameImage facets whenever you copy 
  in a graphic. That may generate two copies of the 
  graphic.
  
  Joe
  
  TuVox, 
  Inc.
  19050 
  Pruneridge Avenue Suite 150, Cupertino, CA 95014-0715
  


  Joe Malin

  Technical Writer

  (408)625.1623

  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  www.tuvox.com

  The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, 
and do not necessarily reflect those of TuVox, 
  Inc.
  
  


From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
Of Rene S.Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:55 
PMTo: framers@lists.FrameUsers.comSubject: RE: FM  
PDF bloat

I 
am having a similar problem. I have a 618kb JPG that has to be copied into 
the doc (can't be ref'd - long story, unusual case), and it balloons the FM 
file from 299 kb to 25,669kb when I insert that meager 618kb JPG! Any 
suggestions anyone?

Thanks,
Rene Stephenson

___


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RE: FM bloat (NO PDF) - RESOLUTION

[Rene S.]

Thank you to all who responded! Your tips for troubleshooting put me on the
path to the resolution. As it turns out, the problem is with the way Corel
Draw handles color transparencies (tints) when it exports to other formats.
That's why I was having the problem regardless of whether it was exported as
a JPG/TIFF/EPS/etc.  So even editing the maker.ini to replace FrameVector
with BMP (DIB) didn't do the trick. But you guys helped me rule out all the
possibilities until the culprit was apparent. THANK YOU  So now we'll be
using one of Adobe's CS solutions to source the graphic instead. ;-)

Rene

-Original Message-
From: Paul Findon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: framers@lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)


On 5 Dec 2005, at 15:38, Rene S. wrote:

 Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't
 figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I
 insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM
 file about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!

Why not convert the file to one of the formats commonly used by
publishing professionals, such as EPS or TIFF. Just a thought.

Paul
http://www.infopage.net/fmforosx/

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005

___


You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Rene S.]

Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't figure out
what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I insert a JPG that's
barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM file about 41 times the
size of the JPG!! Outrageous!

Help.. anyone?

Scratching my head :-\
Rene

-Original Message-
From: Joe Malin [mailto:jma...@tuvox.com]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:58 PM
To: rinnie1 at yahoo.com; framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: FM > PDF bloat


Could it be that both of the problems are due to multiple facets? You may
have your FM set to create FrameImage facets whenever you copy in a graphic.
That may generate two copies of the graphic.

Joe

TuVox, Inc.
19050 Pruneridge Avenue Suite 150, Cupertino, CA 95014-0715

  Joe Malin
  Technical Writer
  (408)625.1623
  jmalin at tuvox.com
  www.tuvox.com
  The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do
not necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.





--
  From: framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
Rene S.
  Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:55 PM
  To: framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
  Subject: RE: FM > PDF bloat


  I am having a similar problem. I have a 618kb JPG that has to be copied
into the doc (can't be ref'd - long story, unusual case), and it balloons
the FM file from 299 kb to 25,669kb when I insert that meager 618kb JPG!
Any suggestions anyone?

  Thanks,
  Rene Stephenson

--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005
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FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Stuart Rogers]

Rene S. wrote:
> Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't figure 
> out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I insert a JPG 
> that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM file about 41 
> times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!
>  
> Help.. anyone?
>  

No idea why it's happening, but the old standby, Save As MIF, might help 
-- either by cleaning up the file, or by allowing you to examine the MIF 
for screwy content.

Have you tried copying that jpg into an otherwise empty fm doc?

Can you change the file format to TIFF or EPS and copy it in?

HTH,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers at phoenix-geophysics dot com

"Please reinstall the application you want to remove."
--Microsoft Windows 'unInstall Specialist'

Get Firefox!
http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5

FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Paul Findon]

On 5 Dec 2005, at 15:38, Rene S. wrote:

> Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't 
> figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I 
> insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM 
> file about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!

Why not convert the file to one of the formats commonly used by 
publishing professionals, such as EPS or TIFF. Just a thought.

Paul

FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Rene S.]

Thanks all. FWIW, we had switched from TIF to JPG for this graphic to try to
lower the file size. I round-tripped through MIF, and it didn't help. :-\
So I converted the graphic to TIF instead of JPG, once using LZW compression
and once using CCITT4 compression, and I still had the same problem. The
source file is in Corel Draw. The CDR file is 8 MB.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Rene

The dull thud you hear is the sound of my head banging on my desktop
repeatedly...

-Original Message-
From: Stuart Rogers [mailto:srog...@phoenix-geophysics.com]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:58 AM
To: rinnie1 at yahoo.com
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)


Rene S. wrote:
> Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't figure
> out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I insert a JPG
> that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM file about 41
> times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!
>
> Help.. anyone?
>

No idea why it's happening, but the old standby, Save As MIF, might help
-- either by cleaning up the file, or by allowing you to examine the MIF
for screwy content.

Have you tried copying that jpg into an otherwise empty fm doc?

Can you change the file format to TIFF or EPS and copy it in?

HTH,

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers at phoenix-geophysics dot com

"Please reinstall the application you want to remove."
--Microsoft Windows 'unInstall Specialist'

Get Firefox!
http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005

FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Joe Malin]

They would be bigger than JPG.

Are you suggesting that GIF or JPG are *not* used by publishing
professionals?


Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
jmalin at tuvox.com 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Paul Findon
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 8:04 AM
To: rinnie1 at yahoo.com
Cc: framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)

On 5 Dec 2005, at 15:38, Rene S. wrote:

> Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't 
> figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I 
> insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM 
> file about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!

Why not convert the file to one of the formats commonly used by
publishing professionals, such as EPS or TIFF. Just a thought.

Paul
<http://www.infopage.net/fmforosx/>

FM bloat (NO PDF)

[Joe Malin]

Well, you could try sending me the files... I don't mind taking a look
at it. You might be hesitant to reveal proprietary info to me, though.
In which case, I understand. At least try sending me the .JPG file.

Joe


TuVox, Inc.


19050 Pruneridge Avenue Suite 150, Cupertino, CA 95014-0715

Joe Malin   
Technical Writer
(408)625.1623   
jmalin at tuvox.com 
www.tuvox.com <http://www.tuvox.com/>   
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.





From: framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Rene S.
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 7:38 AM
To: framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: FM bloat (NO PDF)


Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still
can't figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I
insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM
file about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!

Help.. anyone?

Scratching my head :-\
Rene

-Original Message-
From: Joe Malin [mailto:jmalin at tuvox.com]
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:58 PM
To: rinnie1 at yahoo.com; framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: RE: FM > PDF bloat


Could it be that both of the problems are due to multiple
facets? You may have your FM set to create FrameImage facets whenever
you copy in a graphic. That may generate two copies of the graphic.

Joe


TuVox, Inc.


19050 Pruneridge Avenue Suite 150, Cupertino, CA 95014-0715

Joe Malin   
Technical Writer
(408)625.1623   
jmalin at tuvox.com 
www.tuvox.com <http://www.tuvox.com/>   
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.





From:
framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Rene S.
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:55 PM
To: framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
    Subject: RE: FM > PDF bloat


I am having a similar problem. I have a 618kb JPG that
has to be copied into the doc (can't be ref'd - long story, unusual
case), and it balloons the FM file from 299 kb to 25,669kb when I insert
that meager 618kb JPG!  Any suggestions anyone?

Thanks,
Rene Stephenson


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FM bloat (NO PDF) - RESOLUTION

[Rene S.]

Thank you to all who responded! Your tips for troubleshooting put me on the
path to the resolution. As it turns out, the problem is with the way Corel
Draw handles color transparencies (tints) when it exports to other formats.
That's why I was having the problem regardless of whether it was exported as
a JPG/TIFF/EPS/etc.  So even editing the maker.ini to replace FrameVector
with BMP (DIB) didn't do the trick. But you guys helped me rule out all the
possibilities until the culprit was apparent. THANK YOU  So now we'll be
using one of Adobe's CS solutions to source the graphic instead. ;-)

Rene

-Original Message-
From: Paul Findon [mailto:pfin...@infopage.net]
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:04 AM
To: rinnie1 at yahoo.com
Cc: framers at lists.FrameUsers.com
Subject: Re: FM bloat (NO PDF)


On 5 Dec 2005, at 15:38, Rene S. wrote:

> Thanks, Joe, I checked, but that's not the problem. I still can't
> figure out what's making this FM file bloat to over 25 MB when I
> insert a JPG that's barely over half a MB. This JPG is making the FM
> file about 41 times the size of the JPG!! Outrageous!

Why not convert the file to one of the formats commonly used by
publishing professionals, such as EPS or TIFF. Just a thought.

Paul
<http://www.infopage.net/fmforosx/>

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005

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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.12/192 - Release Date: 12/5/2005