Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Chris Despopoulos]

What MIF wash actually does is simply ignore any garbage in the file.  MIF is 
pretty much a text representation of the binary format.  But MIF interpretation 
is loose, so if there's any garbage in there, saving as MIF *might* write the 
garbage out, but it will certainly not read it.  In this case, there most 
likely was something else in that string that caused it to break into two MIF 
string statements.  However, it was a character that the MIF interpreter 
doesn't understand.  So writing out to MIF triggers two string statements, but 
the cause of the string break doesn't make it into the MIF file.  Then on read, 
since there's nothing there to warrant two strings, the interpreter turns it 
into a single string.  


A couple of words of caution.  First, while MIF washing is absolutely safe, 
it's possible to manually create MIF that will crash Maker.  If you create 
anchored frames out of order, or tables with bad structure, look out.  I only 
say this if you're tempted to generate MIF from a database, or do something 
similar.  MIF is awesome, and pretty darned safe.  But you do have to take care 
in some instances.  


Second, this problem apparently occurred by opening Word in Maker???  Something 
like that.  There are many problems with Word to Maker.  You should not copy 
directly from Word into Maker...  Especially tables.  If you copy a table, then 
the font information gets stored in the Maker table format.  Once there, you 
can only get rid of it via MIF edits...  It's legal MIF, so MIF washing doesn't 
help.  The result can be mysterious Font Not Found messages.  You do everything 
possible via the GUI to get rid of that font, but it's still there.  Even the 
FDK (or now ExtendScript) has no access to that, so there's no way to find the 
font and get rid of it.  Your ONLY option is to open the file in MIF, search 
for the font, and delete it.  I generally copy/paste into a non-MS text editor, 
then copy from that and paste into Maker, then 
reformat if necessary.  For tables, I get comma separated text out of 
Word. ___


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Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up

[Simon BUCH]

Hello,

I suspect the effect that you may be observing is Microsoft's handling 
of some multibyte characters, where they get mutated to the Unicode 
replacement character '�' U+FFFD - which appears to happen very often 
when content is imported or pasted into FrameMaker from Microsoft word.


The character is not shown in FrameMaker, but if the file is exported to 
XML or HTML, it is rendered as a question mark in a rhombus diamond 
symbol: � - as shown on the web page:

http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/fffd/index.htm
Some browsers and applications display it as a hollow box character.

If you know the exact position of one of the errant character in the 
FrameMaker document, you can select the single character by using the 
cursor keys, and press the delete key. For some document I found it was 
possible to select Select Edit  Find/Change... ; specify text to find 
as: \x0d ; and then click Change All.


Regards
// Simon BUCH




On 09/12/2012 12:52, Steve Rickaby wrote:

At 09:24 + 8/12/12, Steve Rickaby wrote:


Plain old MIF-ing fixes it.

This is interesting, as it provided a specific example of an invisible (to the 
eye) problem that MIF-washing fixes.

To recap, I had a large table whose first column contained entries of the form 
'[]', where '' was a reference marker. The text had originated in Word, 
and the table didn't sort properly when the first column was used as the sort 
key.

In the MIF, quite a lot of the first column entries were of the form:

   ParaLine
 String `['
 String `]'
# end of ParaLine

In other words, the '[]' entry consisted of two separate but adjacent 
strings. This messed up the sort. The only visible evidence of this on the 
screen was that it took one more right-cursor movement to advance from the 
start of the line to past the '[' as expected. Also, the wildcard pattern '^[' 
didn't get a match.

Clearly one of the things that FrameMaker does when parsing MIF is to spot 
adjacent strings like this and concatenate them. Useful to know. Why the text 
came out of Word like this is another question altogether. But with Word, who 
knows?



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Re: Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 00:44 -0800 10/12/12, Chris Despopoulos wrote:

Second, this problem apparently occurred by opening Word in Maker???  
Something like that.  There are many problems with Word to Maker.  You should 
not copy directly from Word into Maker...  Especially tables.  If you copy a 
table,

I did not go into details, but I wrote the Word docs to RTF, then imported that 
into FrameMaker. That's been my standard procedure for years; I'd never 
copy/paste from Word into Frame. Your insights are helpful, though.

Frame purging Word 'dirt' while writing to MIF makes sense.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Stuart Rogers]

On 10/12/2012 3:44 AM, Chris Despopoulos wrote:

What MIF wash actually does is simply ignore any garbage in the file.
MIF is pretty much a text representation of the binary format. But MIF
interpretation is loose, so if there's any garbage in there, saving as
MIF *might* write the garbage out, but it will certainly not read it.
In this case, there most likely was something else in that string that
caused it to break into two MIF string statements.  However, it was a
character that the MIF interpreter doesn't understand.  So writing out
to MIF triggers two string statements, but the cause of the string break
doesn't make it into the MIF file.  Then on read, since there's nothing
there to warrant two strings, the interpreter turns it into a single
string.



Steve,

Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by 
opening the Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy 
curiosity, if nothing else!


s.

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com
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Re: Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:01 -0500 10/12/12, Stuart Rogers wrote:

Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by opening the 
Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy curiosity, if nothing 
else!

Great idea if I *had* a hex editor ;-)

-- 
Steve
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Re: Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Stuart Rogers]

On 10/12/2012 11:10 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

At 11:01 -0500 10/12/12, Stuart Rogers wrote:


Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by opening the 
Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy curiosity, if nothing 
else!


Great idea if I *had* a hex editor ;-)




I use http://mh-nexus.de/en/  (free).

s.

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com
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Re: Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Here's a good free Hex editor:
http://frhed.sourceforge.net/en/

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 10-Dec-12 6:10 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

At 11:01 -0500 10/12/12, Stuart Rogers wrote:


Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by opening the 
Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy curiosity, if nothing 
else!

Great idea if I *had* a hex editor ;-)



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Re: Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Steve Rickaby]

Thanks guys but I'm on a Mac. Ok, ok, I do *have* a Windoze box, I just hate 
using it

Will report back on mystery character when I get time.
-- 
Steve
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Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Chris Despopoulos]

What MIF wash actually does is simply ignore any garbage in the file.? MIF is 
pretty much a text representation of the binary format.? But MIF interpretation 
is loose, so if there's any garbage in there, saving as MIF *might* write the 
garbage out, but it will certainly not read it.? In this case, there most 
likely was something else in that string that caused it to break into two MIF 
string statements.? However, it was a character that the MIF interpreter 
doesn't understand.? So writing out to MIF triggers two string statements, but 
the cause of the string break doesn't make it into the MIF file.? Then on read, 
since there's nothing there to warrant two strings, the interpreter turns it 
into a single string.? 


A couple of words of caution.? First, while MIF washing is absolutely safe, 
it's possible to manually create MIF that will crash Maker.? If you create 
anchored frames out of order, or tables with bad structure, look out.? I only 
say this if you're tempted to generate MIF from a database, or do something 
similar.? MIF is awesome, and pretty darned safe.? But you do have to take care 
in some instances.? 


Second, this problem apparently occurred by opening Word in Maker Something 
like that.? There are many problems with Word to Maker.? You should not copy 
directly from Word into Maker...? Especially tables.? If you copy a table, then 
the font information gets stored in the Maker table format.? Once there, you 
can only get rid of it via MIF edits...? It's legal MIF, so MIF washing doesn't 
help.? The result can be mysterious Font Not Found messages.? You do everything 
possible via the GUI to get rid of that font, but it's still there.? Even the 
FDK (or now ExtendScript) has no access to that, so there's no way to find the 
font and get rid of it.? Your ONLY option is to open the file in MIF, search 
for the font, and delete it.? I generally copy/paste into a non-MS text editor, 
then copy from that and paste into Maker, then 
reformat if necessary.? For tables, I get comma separated text out of 
Word. 
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up

[Simon BUCH]

Hello,

I suspect the effect that you may be observing is Microsoft's handling 
of some multibyte characters, where they get mutated to the Unicode 
replacement character '?' U+FFFD - which appears to happen very often 
when content is imported or pasted into FrameMaker from Microsoft word.

The character is not shown in FrameMaker, but if the file is exported to 
XML or HTML, it is rendered as a question mark in a rhombus diamond 
symbol: ? - as shown on the web page:
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/fffd/index.htm
Some browsers and applications display it as a hollow box character.

If you know the exact position of one of the errant character in the 
FrameMaker document, you can select the single character by using the 
cursor keys, and press the delete key. For some document I found it was 
possible to select Select Edit > Find/Change... ; specify text to find 
as: \x0d ; and then click Change All.

Regards
// Simon BUCH




On 09/12/2012 12:52, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 09:24 + 8/12/12, Steve Rickaby wrote:
>
>> Plain old MIF-ing fixes it.
> This is interesting, as it provided a specific example of an invisible (to 
> the eye) problem that MIF-washing fixes.
>
> To recap, I had a large table whose first column contained entries of the 
> form '[]', where '' was a reference marker. The text had originated 
> in Word, and the table didn't sort properly when the first column was used as 
> the sort key.
>
> In the MIF, quite a lot of the first column entries were of the form:
>
>  
>  
>> # end of ParaLine
>
> In other words, the '[]' entry consisted of two separate but adjacent 
> strings. This messed up the sort. The only visible evidence of this on the 
> screen was that it took one more right-cursor movement to advance from the 
> start of the line to past the '[' as expected. Also, the wildcard pattern 
> '^[' didn't get a match.
>
> Clearly one of the things that FrameMaker does when parsing MIF is to spot 
> adjacent strings like this and concatenate them. Useful to know. Why the text 
> came out of Word like this is another question altogether. But with Word, who 
> knows?
>

Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 00:44 -0800 10/12/12, Chris Despopoulos wrote:

>Second, this problem apparently occurred by opening Word in Maker???  
>Something like that.  There are many problems with Word to Maker.  You should 
>not copy directly from Word into Maker...  Especially tables.  If you copy a 
>table,

I did not go into details, but I wrote the Word docs to RTF, then imported that 
into FrameMaker. That's been my standard procedure for years; I'd never 
copy/paste from Word into Frame. Your insights are helpful, though.

Frame purging Word 'dirt' while writing to MIF makes sense.

-- 
Steve

Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Stuart Rogers]

On 10/12/2012 3:44 AM, Chris Despopoulos wrote:
> What MIF wash actually does is simply ignore any garbage in the file.
> MIF is pretty much a text representation of the binary format. But MIF
> interpretation is loose, so if there's any garbage in there, saving as
> MIF *might* write the garbage out, but it will certainly not read it.
> In this case, there most likely was something else in that string that
> caused it to break into two MIF string statements.  However, it was a
> character that the MIF interpreter doesn't understand.  So writing out
> to MIF triggers two string statements, but the cause of the string break
> doesn't make it into the MIF file.  Then on read, since there's nothing
> there to warrant two strings, the interpreter turns it into a single
> string.


Steve,

Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by 
opening the Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy 
curiosity, if nothing else!

s.

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com

Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:01 -0500 10/12/12, Stuart Rogers wrote:

>Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by opening the 
>Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy curiosity, if nothing 
>else!

Great idea if I *had* a hex editor ;-)

-- 
Steve

Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Stuart Rogers]

On 10/12/2012 11:10 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 11:01 -0500 10/12/12, Stuart Rogers wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by opening 
>> the Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy curiosity, if 
>> nothing else!
>
> Great idea if I *had* a hex editor ;-)
>


I use http://mh-nexus.de/en/  (free).

s.

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com

Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Here's a good free Hex editor:
http://frhed.sourceforge.net/en/

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133

On 10-Dec-12 6:10 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> At 11:01 -0500 10/12/12, Stuart Rogers wrote:
>
>> Sounds like you might be able to identify the mystery character by opening 
>> the Word/RTF source file in a hex editor.  It would satisfy curiosity, if 
>> nothing else!
> Great idea if I *had* a hex editor ;-)
>

Mif Wash FYI [was Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up]

[Steve Rickaby]

Thanks guys but I'm on a Mac. Ok, ok, I do *have* a Windoze box, I just hate 
using it

Will report back on mystery character when I get time.
-- 
Steve

Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up

[Steve Rickaby]

At 09:24 + 8/12/12, Steve Rickaby wrote:

Plain old MIF-ing fixes it.

This is interesting, as it provided a specific example of an invisible (to the 
eye) problem that MIF-washing fixes.

To recap, I had a large table whose first column contained entries of the form 
'[]', where '' was a reference marker. The text had originated in Word, 
and the table didn't sort properly when the first column was used as the sort 
key.

In the MIF, quite a lot of the first column entries were of the form:

  ParaLine
String `['
String `]'
   # end of ParaLine

In other words, the '[]' entry consisted of two separate but adjacent 
strings. This messed up the sort. The only visible evidence of this on the 
screen was that it took one more right-cursor movement to advance from the 
start of the line to past the '[' as expected. Also, the wildcard pattern '^[' 
didn't get a match.

Clearly one of the things that FrameMaker does when parsing MIF is to spot 
adjacent strings like this and concatenate them. Useful to know. Why the text 
came out of Word like this is another question altogether. But with Word, who 
knows?

-- 
Steve
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Re: Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:52:59 +, Steve Rickaby 
srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk wrote:

Clearly one of the things that FrameMaker does when parsing 
MIF is to spot adjacent strings like this and concatenate 
them. Useful to know. Why the text came out of Word like 
this is another question altogether. But with Word, who knows?

Frame always merges MIF strings unless there is really 
something in between them.  So what the pattern:

 ParaLine
  String `['
  String `]'
  # end of ParaLine

suggests to me is that there *was* something in between,
like a control char, that Frame could not represent in MIF.

I'd advise that MIF wash is always the *least* you should
do after using Frame's very dirty native import from Word.
Actually, you are better off to copy and paste special
as Plain Text, then redo the formatting.  MIF wash will
not fix all the nasties in there, which are likely to
bite you again and again, and you'll have no idea why...

MIF wash can be inconvenient, but it's one menu pick
if you install the demo (or full) version of Mif2Go.
Select a book, and it does the book file and all the
chapters with one click, usually in a few seconds.
The demo never expires, and works with all Frame
versions from 5.5.6 to 11, and all Windows from NT 
3.51 to Win 8.  I use Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit myself.

To download the demo, create a free account on:
  http://mif2go.com
put something Frame-related in the bio (needed to 
screen out spammers; as of today, we have blocked 
135 of them), then use Download | Demo Software
on the left menu.  Follow the five-minute install
instructions on the Web page and in the User's 
Guide; don't try to guess at them!

Enjoy!

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  jer...@omsys.comhttp://mif2go.com/
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Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up

[Steve Rickaby]

At 09:24 + 8/12/12, Steve Rickaby wrote:

>Plain old MIF-ing fixes it.

This is interesting, as it provided a specific example of an invisible (to the 
eye) problem that MIF-washing fixes.

To recap, I had a large table whose first column contained entries of the form 
'[]', where '' was a reference marker. The text had originated in Word, 
and the table didn't sort properly when the first column was used as the sort 
key.

In the MIF, quite a lot of the first column entries were of the form:

  

  > # end of ParaLine

In other words, the '[]' entry consisted of two separate but adjacent 
strings. This messed up the sort. The only visible evidence of this on the 
screen was that it took one more right-cursor movement to advance from the 
start of the line to past the '[' as expected. Also, the wildcard pattern '^[' 
didn't get a match.

Clearly one of the things that FrameMaker does when parsing MIF is to spot 
adjacent strings like this and concatenate them. Useful to know. Why the text 
came out of Word like this is another question altogether. But with Word, who 
knows?

-- 
Steve

Table that won't sort correctly: wash-up

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 12:52:59 +, Steve Rickaby 
 wrote:

>Clearly one of the things that FrameMaker does when parsing 
>MIF is to spot adjacent strings like this and concatenate 
>them. Useful to know. Why the text came out of Word like 
>this is another question altogether. But with Word, who knows?

Frame always merges MIF strings unless there is really 
something in between them.  So what the pattern:

 
  
 > # end of ParaLine

suggests to me is that there *was* something in between,
like a control char, that Frame could not represent in MIF.

I'd advise that MIF wash is always the *least* you should
do after using Frame's very dirty native import from Word.
Actually, you are better off to copy and "paste special"
as Plain Text, then redo the formatting.  MIF wash will
not fix all the nasties in there, which are likely to
bite you again and again, and you'll have no idea why...

MIF wash can be inconvenient, but it's one menu pick
if you install the demo (or full) version of Mif2Go.
Select a book, and it does the book file and all the
chapters with one click, usually in a few seconds.
The demo never expires, and works with all Frame
versions from 5.5.6 to 11, and all Windows from NT 
3.51 to Win 8.  I use Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit myself.

To download the demo, create a free account on:
  http://mif2go.com
put something Frame-related in the bio (needed to 
screen out spammers; as of today, we have blocked 
135 of them), then use Download | Demo Software
on the left menu.  Follow the five-minute install
instructions on the Web page and in the User's 
Guide; don't try to guess at them!

Enjoy!

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  http://mif2go.com/

Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

Thanks Art, Stuart, for good ideas. Why didn't I think of just MIF-ing it?

I will try both methods and report back. Meanwhile, I'm pretty well advanced in 
manually massaging the MIF (he wrote alliteratively), using a macro in a text 
editor. The fact that the problem is signalled by the line 'String `['' makes 
this possible.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

At 08:56 + 8/12/12, Steve Rickaby wrote:

I will try both methods and report back. Meanwhile, I'm pretty well advanced 
in manually massaging the MIF (he wrote alliteratively), using a macro in a 
text editor. The fact that the problem is signalled by the line 'String `['' 
makes this possible.

Plain old MIF-ing fixes it.

Duh... :-(

-- 
Steve
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Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

Thanks Art, Stuart, for good ideas. Why didn't I think of just MIF-ing it?

I will try both methods and report back. Meanwhile, I'm pretty well advanced in 
manually massaging the MIF (he wrote alliteratively), using a macro in a text 
editor. The fact that the problem is signalled by the line '' makes 
this possible.

-- 
Steve

Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

At 08:56 + 8/12/12, Steve Rickaby wrote:

>I will try both methods and report back. Meanwhile, I'm pretty well advanced 
>in manually massaging the MIF (he wrote alliteratively), using a macro in a 
>text editor. The fact that the problem is signalled by the line '' 
>makes this possible.

Plain old MIF-ing fixes it.

Duh... :-(

-- 
Steve

Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin 
characters are messing up sort. 

I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left column, 
where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the results aren't 
alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There may be gremlins: in 
many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start of the line and pressing 
the right arrow key does not advance the cursor past the '[' until the right 
arrow key is pressed again.

Copying one of the offending 'invisible character[' pairs to the Find dialog 
fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with wildcards on 
shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[', even though that's 
all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted ok *do* start with just 
'['.

So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.

Helpful ideas, anyone?

FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
-- 
Steve
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Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[Sharon Burton]

Sounds like you have hidden tabs at the start of the lines that won't sort 
properly. Hidden tabs are common when importing from word. 

Sent from my iPad

Cell: 951-202-0813

On Dec 7, 2012, at 5:58 AM, Steve Rickaby srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk 
wrote:

 Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin 
 characters are messing up sort. 
 
 I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left 
 column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the 
 results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There may 
 be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start of the 
 line and pressing the right arrow key does not advance the cursor past the 
 '[' until the right arrow key is pressed again.
 
 Copying one of the offending 'invisible character[' pairs to the Find 
 dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with 
 wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[', even 
 though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted ok *do* 
 start with just '['.
 
 So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.
 
 Helpful ideas, anyone?
 
 FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
 -- 
 Steve
 ___
 
 
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Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

At 09:05 -0500 7/12/12, John Sgammato wrote:

Before fixing it - are you certain that the invisible character does not 
contain information that you will need someday?

Yes, absolutely sure. But you make a good point.

 For example, maybe those rows belong together? Somehow the gremlin character 
 got there, and it may not have been unintentional.

Not in this case. The book's author put his references at the end of each 
chapter in the Word ms (the usual Word mess ;-), and I am quite a long way down 
the road of combining, collating, sorting and eliminating duplicates from them 
in Frame. Once sorted, all the '[ref]' references will become hypertext 
destinations.

[Aside: it has been a joy... not. I have seen more character corruption with 
this Word import than ever before. Maybe because the author's native language 
is Spanish, all the quote marks and about half the dashes imported as accented 
characters that only occur in Hispanic languages.]

If you know they are indeed spurious, then maybe you can Find and Change *[ to 
[ in that column.

This doesn't seem to work. The find works, but the gremlin still seems to be 
there after the change operation.

I might have to delve into MIF with a text editor, but I'd rather find a 
Frame-friendly cure if possible. Here's the MIF of an offending 'something[' 
pair:

  ParaLine
String `['
String `Bas06]'
# end of ParaLine

In order words, what should be '[Bas06]' is in two parts in the MIF.

Huh???

ps thanks for the Structured FM help, you and everyone. I have been 
successful, but there is more to do before I report back. 

Welcome, and good luck.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]
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Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[Stuart Rogers]

On 07/12/2012 8:58 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect
gremlin characters are messing up sort.

I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in
left column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col
1, the results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a
lot. There may be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert
cursor at the start of the line and pressing the right arrow key does
not advance the cursor past the '[' until the right arrow key is
pressed again.

Copying one of the offending 'invisible character[' pairs to the
Find dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for
'^[' with wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start
with just '[', even though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines
that *have* sorted ok *do* start with just '['.

So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.

Helpful ideas, anyone?

FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.



This *might* work; it's a wash via Notepad.  It's a bit cumbersome, 
though.


1.  Copy the troublesome column to the clipboard.
2.  Open a new temporary.fm file and paste; you'll have a single-column 
table.

3.  Table  Convert to Paragraphs, row by row.
4.  Copy the paragraphs to the clipboard.
5.  Open Notepad and paste. (As extra insurance, you could use a utility 
like PureText to ensure that only ascii gets pasted.)

6.  Copy the Notepad content to the clipboard.
7.  Return to the temporary.fm file, select all, and paste.
8.  Select all; Table  Convert to Table, zero heading rows, Treat Each 
Paragraph As A Cell, Number of Columns = 1.

9.  Copy the whole column to the clipboard.
10. Return to your original document.fm select the troublesome column, 
and paste.


HTH,

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com
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Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[Art Campbell]

The first thing you should do with any imported or copied Word content is
MIFwash it -- save the Frame file out as MIF, open that, and save as a ,FM
in order to clean all the weird Word characters out.

Try that and see if it helps.


Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.



On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Steve Rickaby 
srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk wrote:

 Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin
 characters are messing up sort.

 I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left
 column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the
 results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There
 may be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start
 of the line and pressing the right arrow key does not advance the cursor
 past the '[' until the right arrow key is pressed again.

 Copying one of the offending 'invisible character[' pairs to the Find
 dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with
 wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[',
 even though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted
 ok *do* start with just '['.

 So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.

 Helpful ideas, anyone?

 FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
 --
 Steve
 ___


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Re: Table that won't sort correctly

[John Sgammato]

Before fixing it - are you certain that the invisible character does not
contain information that you will need someday? For example, maybe those
rows belong together? Somehow the gremlin character got there, and it may
not have been unintentional.
If you know they are indeed spurious, then maybe you can Find and Change *[
to [ in that column.
john

ps thanks for the Structured FM help, you and everyone. I have been
successful, but there is more to do before I report back.

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Steve Rickaby 
srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk wrote:

 Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin
 characters are messing up sort.

 I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left
 column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the
 results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There
 may be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start
 of the line and pressing the right arrow key does not advance the cursor
 past the '[' until the right arrow key is pressed again.

 Copying one of the offending 'invisible character[' pairs to the Find
 dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with
 wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[',
 even though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted
 ok *do* start with just '['.

 So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.

 Helpful ideas, anyone?

 FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
 --
 Steve
 ___


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-- 









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Documentation Architect

*e* john.sgamm...@actifio.com

*w* +1-781.890.2950 x7652

*Recover anything instantly for up to 90% less than you're paying now.*
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Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin 
characters are messing up sort. 

I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left column, 
where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the results aren't 
alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There may be gremlins: in 
many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start of the line and pressing 
the right arrow key does not advance the cursor past the '[' until the right 
arrow key is pressed again.

Copying one of the offending '[' pairs to the Find dialog 
fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with wildcards on 
shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[', even though that's 
all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted ok *do* start with just 
'['.

So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.

Helpful ideas, anyone?

FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
-- 
Steve

Table that won't sort correctly

[Sharon Burton]

Sounds like you have hidden tabs at the start of the lines that won't sort 
properly. Hidden tabs are common when importing from word. 

Sent from my iPad

Cell: 951-202-0813

On Dec 7, 2012, at 5:58 AM, Steve Rickaby  
wrote:

> Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin 
> characters are messing up sort. 
> 
> I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left 
> column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the 
> results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There may 
> be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start of the 
> line and pressing the right arrow key does not advance the cursor past the 
> '[' until the right arrow key is pressed again.
> 
> Copying one of the offending '[' pairs to the Find 
> dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with 
> wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[', even 
> though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted ok *do* 
> start with just '['.
> 
> So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.
> 
> Helpful ideas, anyone?
> 
> FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
> -- 
> Steve
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to framers as sharon at anthrobytes.com.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/sharon%40anthrobytes.com
> 
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

At 09:05 -0500 7/12/12, John Sgammato wrote:

>Before "fixing" it - are you certain that the invisible character does not 
>contain information that you will need someday?

Yes, absolutely sure. But you make a good point.

> For example, maybe those rows belong together? Somehow the gremlin character 
> got there, and it may not have been unintentional.

Not in this case. The book's author put his references at the end of each 
chapter in the Word ms (the usual Word mess ;-), and I am quite a long way down 
the road of combining, collating, sorting and eliminating duplicates from them 
in Frame. Once sorted, all the '[ref]' references will become hypertext 
destinations.

[Aside: it has been a joy... not. I have seen more character corruption with 
this Word import than ever before. Maybe because the author's native language 
is Spanish, all the quote marks and about half the dashes imported as accented 
characters that only occur in Hispanic languages.]

>If you know they are indeed spurious, then maybe you can Find and Change *[ to 
>[ in that column.

This doesn't seem to work. The find works, but the gremlin still seems to be 
there after the change operation.

I might have to delve into MIF with a text editor, but I'd rather find a 
Frame-friendly cure if possible. Here's the MIF of an offending '[' 
pair:

  

   > # end of ParaLine

In order words, what should be '[Bas06]' is in two parts in the MIF.

Huh???

>ps thanks for the Structured FM help, you and everyone. I have been 
>successful, but there is more to do before I report back. 

Welcome, and good luck.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]

Table that won't sort correctly

[Steve Rickaby]

At 06:15 -0800 7/12/12, Sharon Burton wrote:

>Sounds like you have hidden tabs at the start of the lines that won't sort 
>properly. Hidden tabs are common when importing from word.

By 'hidden tab', do you mean a tab that wouldn't show up as a tab in Frame?

-- 
Steve

Table that won't sort correctly

[Stuart Rogers]

On 07/12/2012 8:58 AM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect
> gremlin characters are messing up sort.
>
> I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in
> left column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col
> 1, the results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a
> lot. There may be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert
> cursor at the start of the line and pressing the right arrow key does
> not advance the cursor past the '[' until the right arrow key is
> pressed again.
>
> Copying one of the offending '[' pairs to the
> Find dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for
> '^[' with wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start
> with just '[', even though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines
> that *have* sorted ok *do* start with just '['.
>
> So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.
>
> Helpful ideas, anyone?
>
> FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
>

This *might* work; it's a "wash via Notepad".  It's a bit cumbersome, 
though.

1.  Copy the troublesome column to the clipboard.
2.  Open a new temporary.fm file and paste; you'll have a single-column 
table.
3.  Table > Convert to Paragraphs, row by row.
4.  Copy the paragraphs to the clipboard.
5.  Open Notepad and paste. (As extra insurance, you could use a utility 
like PureText to ensure that only ascii gets pasted.)
6.  Copy the Notepad content to the clipboard.
7.  Return to the temporary.fm file, select all, and paste.
8.  Select all; Table > Convert to Table, zero heading rows, Treat Each 
Paragraph As A Cell, Number of Columns = 1.
9.  Copy the whole column to the clipboard.
10. Return to your original document.fm select the troublesome column, 
and paste.

HTH,

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
3781 Victoria Park Avenue, Unit 3
Toronto, ON, Canada  M1W 3K5
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

http://www.phoenix-geophysics.com

Table that won't sort correctly

[Art Campbell]

The first thing you should do with any imported or copied Word content is
MIFwash it -- save the Frame file out as MIF, open that, and save as a ,FM
in order to clean all the weird Word characters out.

Try that and see if it helps.


Art Campbell
  art.campbell at gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.



On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Steve Rickaby <
srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin
> characters are messing up sort.
>
> I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left
> column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the
> results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There
> may be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start
> of the line and pressing the right arrow key does not advance the cursor
> past the '[' until the right arrow key is pressed again.
>
> Copying one of the offending '[' pairs to the Find
> dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with
> wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[',
> even though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted
> ok *do* start with just '['.
>
> So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.
>
> Helpful ideas, anyone?
>
> FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
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An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Table that won't sort correctly

[John Sgammato]

Before "fixing" it - are you certain that the invisible character does not
contain information that you will need someday? For example, maybe those
rows belong together? Somehow the gremlin character got there, and it may
not have been unintentional.
If you know they are indeed spurious, then maybe you can Find and Change *[
to [ in that column.
john

ps thanks for the Structured FM help, you and everyone. I have been
successful, but there is more to do before I report back.

On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Steve Rickaby <
srickaby at wordmongers.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Title says it all. Material sourced from Word (groan): I suspect gremlin
> characters are messing up sort.
>
> I need to alpha-sort some 60 pp. Each entry starts with '[ref]' in left
> column, where 'ref' is the reference marker. When sorted on col 1, the
> results aren't alpha. Some sorting has taken place, but not a lot. There
> may be gremlins: in many lines, positioning the insert cursor at the start
> of the line and pressing the right arrow key does not advance the cursor
> past the '[' until the right arrow key is pressed again.
>
> Copying one of the offending '[' pairs to the Find
> dialog fails to find the character pair. However, searching for '^[' with
> wildcards on shows that the not-sorted lines do not start with just '[',
> even though that's all that is visible. Equally, lines that *have* sorted
> ok *do* start with just '['.
>
> So: I know why it's not working, but no how to fix it.
>
> Helpful ideas, anyone?
>
> FrameMaker 7.0p757 for Mac.
> --
> Steve
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as john.sgammato at actifio.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/john.sgammato%40actifio.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>



-- 









*John Sgammato  *

Documentation Architect

*e* john.sgammato at actifio.com

*w* +1-781.890.2950 x7652

*Recover anything instantly for up to 90% less than you're paying now.*
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