Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[quills]

I was lazy and didn't want to reinvent the wheel, so I took DOCBOOK and 
modified the EDD to make it format the way we wanted. Of course with 
heading resetting the numbering system I wanted an automatic way to 
apply the heading formats without reverting to manually setting attributes.


I accomplished this with the recursive sections available in DOCBOOK. So 
the context of Title element in levels of Section elements works. The 
context is:


If context is: {first}  Section
If context is: Section  Section  Section  Section  Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 4
Else, if context is: Section  Section  Section  Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 3
Else, if context is: Section  Section  Section  Article
Use paragraph format: Heading 4
Else, if context is: Section  Section  Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 2
Else, if context is: Section  Section  Article
Use paragraph format: Heading 3
Else, if context is: Section  Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 1
Else, if context is: Section  Article
Use paragraph format: Heading 2

Context, level they all work well.

Scott

Chris Despopoulos wrote:

I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only. Users should never
just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe).
Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids... Or rather, it
imposes it. To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them,
you would have to:
* Create the new formats
* Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes
* Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element*
* Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the
attribute vals
* Store all the above in the template

In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and
each value is the name of a pgf format. Then you set up format rules for
every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute
value. Then do the same for char, table, and other formats??? But this
kind of defeats the purpose of structure. The idea with structure is (as
has already been said) to separate structure from display. You want a
machine to make the display decisions at the last minute. And FrameMaker
is just one such machine. By using that principle, then you can automate
great things, like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all
the formatting adjusts automatically.

I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer.
Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that
the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project. Maybe it's
time to address more fundamental issues?


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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[qui...@airmail.net]

I was lazy and didn't want to reinvent the wheel, so I took DOCBOOK and 
modified the EDD to make it format the way we wanted. Of course with 
heading resetting the numbering system I wanted an automatic way to 
apply the heading formats without reverting to manually setting attributes.

I accomplished this with the recursive sections available in DOCBOOK. So 
the context of Title element in levels of Section elements works. The 
context is:

If context is: {first} < Section
If context is: Section < Section < Section < Section < Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 4
Else, if context is: Section < Section < Section < Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 3
Else, if context is: Section < Section < Section < Article
Use paragraph format: Heading 4
Else, if context is: Section < Section < Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 2
Else, if context is: Section < Section < Article
Use paragraph format: Heading 3
Else, if context is: Section < Chapter
Use paragraph format: Heading 1
Else, if context is: Section < Article
Use paragraph format: Heading 2

Context, level they all work well.

Scott

Chris Despopoulos wrote:
> I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only. Users should never
> just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe).
> Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids... Or rather, it
> imposes it. To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them,
> you would have to:
> * Create the new formats
> * Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes
> * Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element*
> * Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the
> attribute vals
> * Store all the above in the template
>
> In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and
> each value is the name of a pgf format. Then you set up format rules for
> every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute
> value. Then do the same for char, table, and other formats??? But this
> kind of defeats the purpose of structure. The idea with structure is (as
> has already been said) to separate structure from display. You want a
> machine to make the display decisions at the last minute. And FrameMaker
> is just one such machine. By using that principle, then you can automate
> great things, like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all
> the formatting adjusts automatically.
>
> I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer.
> Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that
> the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project. Maybe it's
> time to address more fundamental issues?
>

Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Robert Lauriston]

No, in some cases I use maps in RoboHelp or MIF2Go, in others I use
text insets in files with different definitions of the paragraph tags.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com wrote:
 You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different
 formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the
 differences he cites in his outputs).
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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Craig Ede]

Thanks for the clarification of your techniques for doing this.

Craig

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 10:45 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph
formats

No, in some cases I use maps in RoboHelp or MIF2Go, in others I use text
insets in files with different definitions of the paragraph tags.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Craig Ede craig...@hotmail.com wrote:
 You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with 
 different formats without using structure (which is how I assume 
 Robert is getting the differences he cites in his outputs).
___


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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Craig Ede]

Thanks for the clarification of your techniques for doing this.

Craig

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 10:45 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph
formats

No, in some cases I use maps in RoboHelp or MIF2Go, in others I use text
insets in files with different definitions of the paragraph tags.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with 
> different formats without using structure (which is how I assume 
> Robert is getting the differences he cites in his outputs).
___

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Robert Lauriston]

No, in some cases I use maps in RoboHelp or MIF2Go, in others I use
text insets in files with different definitions of the paragraph tags.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different
> formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the
> differences he cites in his outputs).

Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Fred Wersan]

I think the answer to your question is somewhere between No and It 
Depends, but closer to No. It gets back to the structure vs. display 
issue. FrameMaker tries to give you both the XML world and the WYSIWYG 
world in one package. A more typical XML editor (like the new XML view 
in Frame 11) is just a text-based markup language editor that doesn't 
know anything about display. The XML output from such an editor gets 
turned into a formatted document by other software that transforms it 
(XSL and that stuff) based on the elements and attributes. This is how 
XML can get used in lots of different ways (single-sourcing). Different 
transformations yield different formatting based on the target display 
platform.


If FrameMaker, that display transformation takes place in real time in 
the interaction between the EDD and the para and char formats in your 
document based on the elements and attributes in your structure plus 
specific formatting overrides in the EDD. This means there is a 
temptation to build in a lot of attributes and formatting that is Frame 
specific. For example, some of my elements include whether or not I want 
the para or heading to be at the top of a page. This is entirely display 
related and something that would almost certainly be frowned upon if you 
were writing for multiple display environments.


Therefore, if you are round tripping for distribution in other display 
environments, I would actually suspect that you would want to minimize 
the format related stuff in your structure, rather than maximize it 
because the framemaker-specific formatting would make less sense when 
transforming to other display environments. If you are round tripping 
just for editing purposes and it always comes back to FrameMaker for 
printing/PDF, then that is less of an issue and you can do what works 
best for you. Even in that case, you might not want to burden the 
authors with format related attributes to think about.


Hope I've been at least somewhat coherent in my comments. I've probably 
simplified things a little. I don't do any round tripping, so I can't 
speak much to the pitfalls.


Fred


On 9/13/2012 6:29 PM, rebecca officer wrote:

Hi guys
If you're planning to roundtrip through XML, with different authors 
using different XML editors, you'd need to have all the formatting in 
the EDD, right?

Or am I on completely the wrong track in my ignorance?
Thanks
Rebecca




--
Fred Wersan
VT MÄK, Principal Technical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwer...@mak.com

Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off!
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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Craig Ede]

You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different
formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the
differences he cites in his outputs).

However, structure allows you to create context that gives different
paragraph formatting to the same structural element (like a Heading)
depending on whether it is inside another Heading or inside multiple levels
of Heading. That way your structure shows the Heading as single element
choice, but the formatting is brought in depending on what that element is
contained within. In that way your EDD can reference the paragraph tags like
Heading1, Heading2, Heading3, etc. depending on the level of the Heading
element.

For my money, it makes sense for the EDD to reference paragraph and
character tags defined in the Structure Application's template rather that
creating ad hoc formatting within the EDD. That becomes a lot harder to
reengineer in a different context since it is hidden away in the EDD rather
than in the document template specified by the Structured Application
specified in FrameMaker.

Craig
-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:14 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph
formats

You don't need to use structured FM for that. My paragraph tags map to
different formats / tags depending on whether the output is PDF, Web help,
Confluence XHTML, or 7-bit ASCII with layout.


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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[rebecca officer]

Hi guys

If you're planning to roundtrip through XML, with different authors
using different XML editors, you'd need to have all the formatting in
the EDD, right?

Or am I on completely the wrong track in my ignorance?

Thanks
Rebecca


>>> "Rick Quatro"  14/09/12 10:02 >>>
I like Fred's arguments here. I have mainly advocated the
Paragraph/Character format approach in EDDs for two main reasons:

1) It is generally easier to have a single EDD work with multiple
templates,
which is advantageous for some document sets.

2) It allows the client a bit of flexibility in determining the look
and
feel of their templates. I do the EDD work and they can do the template
work
with the Paragraph and Character Designer interface that they are
familiar
with.

Because the large number of formats that this approach can entail, you
need
to plan your format names carefully so they make sense to the template
designer.

Over time, I have become less strict, and moved to more of a mixed
approach.
For certain types of formatting, I will use a base paragraph format
and
specify "exceptions" in the EDD; for example, page breaks, extra space
at
the end of a list, etc. This still allows template changes with the
Designers, but cuts back on the number of "exception" formats in the
paragraph and character catalogs. I have found that this works well
and
still supports the two reasons above. 

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com




-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Wersan
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining,
paragraph
formats

Just my two cents on this.

There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and
maybe
your philosophical approach - as in "no formatting in the EDD".

When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph
format
bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and
character
formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format
for
every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part
this
means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate
from
the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable
deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy
permits
this).

As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the
EDD,
there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times
when
it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated
and
it isn't worth it.

Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try
to
act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no
new
on-the-fly formats allowed.

With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they
get
blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to
do
things right.

A previous respondent said: "

The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate
structure
from display.?"


I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure,
particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the
formatting
based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply
formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a
non-WYSIWYG
environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the
display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for
applying
the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting
based
entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para
formats is
an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is
done
by the computer, not by the user.

Fred

--
Fred Wersan
VT M?K, Principal Te
chnical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwersan at mak.com

Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off!
www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012

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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Fred Wersan]

I think the answer to your question is somewhere between No and It 
Depends, but closer to No. It gets back to the structure vs. display 
issue. FrameMaker tries to give you both the XML world and the WYSIWYG 
world in one package. A more typical XML editor (like the new XML view 
in Frame 11) is just a text-based markup language editor that doesn't 
know anything about display. The XML output from such an editor gets 
turned into a formatted document by other software that transforms it 
(XSL and that stuff) based on the elements and attributes. This is how 
XML can get used in lots of different ways (single-sourcing). Different 
transformations yield different formatting based on the target display 
platform.

If FrameMaker, that display transformation takes place in real time in 
the interaction between the EDD and the para and char formats in your 
document based on the elements and attributes in your structure plus 
specific formatting overrides in the EDD. This means there is a 
temptation to build in a lot of attributes and formatting that is Frame 
specific. For example, some of my elements include whether or not I want 
the para or heading to be at the top of a page. This is entirely display 
related and something that would almost certainly be frowned upon if you 
were writing for multiple display environments.

Therefore, if you are round tripping for distribution in other display 
environments, I would actually suspect that you would want to minimize 
the format related stuff in your structure, rather than maximize it 
because the framemaker-specific formatting would make less sense when 
transforming to other display environments. If you are round tripping 
just for editing purposes and it always comes back to FrameMaker for 
printing/PDF, then that is less of an issue and you can do what works 
best for you. Even in that case, you might not want to burden the 
authors with format related attributes to think about.

Hope I've been at least somewhat coherent in my comments. I've probably 
simplified things a little. I don't do any round tripping, so I can't 
speak much to the pitfalls.

Fred


On 9/13/2012 6:29 PM, rebecca officer wrote:
> Hi guys
> If you're planning to roundtrip through XML, with different authors 
> using different XML editors, you'd need to have all the formatting in 
> the EDD, right?
> Or am I on completely the wrong track in my ignorance?
> Thanks
> Rebecca
>
>

-- 
Fred Wersan
VT M?K, Principal Technical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwersan at mak.com

Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off!
www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Craig Ede]

You can change the paragraph formats by importing templates with different
formats without using structure (which is how I assume Robert is getting the
differences he cites in his outputs).

However, structure allows you to create context that gives different
paragraph formatting to the same structural element (like a Heading)
depending on whether it is inside another Heading or inside multiple levels
of Heading. That way your structure shows the Heading as single element
choice, but the formatting is brought in depending on what that element is
contained within. In that way your EDD can reference the paragraph tags like
Heading1, Heading2, Heading3, etc. depending on the level of the Heading
element.

For my money, it makes sense for the EDD to reference paragraph and
character tags defined in the Structure Application's template rather that
creating ad hoc formatting within the EDD. That becomes a lot harder to
reengineer in a different context since it is hidden away in the EDD rather
than in the document template specified by the Structured Application
specified in FrameMaker.

Craig
-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:14 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph
formats

You don't need to use structured FM for that. My paragraph tags map to
different formats / tags depending on whether the output is PDF, Web help,
Confluence XHTML, or 7-bit ASCII with layout.

Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Fred Wersan]

Just my two cents on this.

There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and 
maybe your philosophical approach - as in no formatting in the EDD.


When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format 
bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character 
formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for 
every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part 
this means that if you are strict about things you don't let users 
deviate from the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover 
acceptable deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your 
philosophy permits this).


As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD, 
there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times 
when it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too 
complicated and it isn't worth it.


Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try 
to act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no 
new on-the-fly formats allowed.


With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they 
get blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive 
to do things right.


A previous respondent said: 

The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure from 
display.?


I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure, 
particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting 
based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply 
formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a 
non-WYSIWYG environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker 
you get the display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, 
just for applying the correct element tags. Whether the computer 
enforces the formatting based entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix 
of EDD coding and para formats is an implementation detail. Either way 
the application of formatting is done by the computer, not by the user.


Fred

--
Fred Wersan
VT MÄK, Principal Technical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwer...@mak.com

Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off!
www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012

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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Rick Quatro]

I like Fred's arguments here. I have mainly advocated the
Paragraph/Character format approach in EDDs for two main reasons:

1) It is generally easier to have a single EDD work with multiple templates,
which is advantageous for some document sets.

2) It allows the client a bit of flexibility in determining the look and
feel of their templates. I do the EDD work and they can do the template work
with the Paragraph and Character Designer interface that they are familiar
with.

Because the large number of formats that this approach can entail, you need
to plan your format names carefully so they make sense to the template
designer.

Over time, I have become less strict, and moved to more of a mixed approach.
For certain types of formatting, I will use a base paragraph format and
specify exceptions in the EDD; for example, page breaks, extra space at
the end of a list, etc. This still allows template changes with the
Designers, but cuts back on the number of exception formats in the
paragraph and character catalogs. I have found that this works well and
still supports the two reasons above. 

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.com




-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Wersan
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph
formats

Just my two cents on this.

There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and maybe
your philosophical approach - as in no formatting in the EDD.

When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format
bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character
formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for
every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part this
means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate from
the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable
deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy permits
this).

As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD,
there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times when
it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated and
it isn't worth it.

Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try to
act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no new
on-the-fly formats allowed.

With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they get
blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to do
things right.

A previous respondent said: 

The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure
from display.?


I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure,
particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting
based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply
formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG
environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the
display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying
the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based
entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is
an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done
by the computer, not by the user.

Fred

--
Fred Wersan
VT MÄK, Principal Technical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwer...@mak.com

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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[rebecca officer]

Hi guys
 
If you're planning to roundtrip through XML, with different authors
using different XML editors, you'd need to have all the formatting in
the EDD, right?
 
Or am I on completely the wrong track in my ignorance?
 
Thanks
Rebecca


 Rick Quatro r...@rickquatro.com 14/09/12 10:02 
I like Fred's arguments here. I have mainly advocated the
Paragraph/Character format approach in EDDs for two main reasons:

1) It is generally easier to have a single EDD work with multiple
templates,
which is advantageous for some document sets.

2) It allows the client a bit of flexibility in determining the look
and
feel of their templates. I do the EDD work and they can do the template
work
with the Paragraph and Character Designer interface that they are
familiar
with.

Because the large number of formats that this approach can entail, you
need
to plan your format names carefully so they make sense to the template
designer.

Over time, I have become less strict, and moved to more of a mixed
approach.
For certain types of formatting, I will use a base paragraph format
and
specify exceptions in the EDD; for example, page breaks, extra space
at
the end of a list, etc. This still allows template changes with the
Designers, but cuts back on the number of exception formats in the
paragraph and character catalogs. I have found that this works well
and
still supports the two reasons above. 

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.com




-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Wersan
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining,
paragraph
formats

Just my two cents on this.

There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and
maybe
your philosophical approach - as in no formatting in the EDD.

When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph
format
bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and
character
formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format
for
every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part
this
means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate
from
the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable
deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy
permits
this).

As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the
EDD,
there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times
when
it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated
and
it isn't worth it.

Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try
to
act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no
new
on-the-fly formats allowed.

With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they
get
blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to
do
things right.

A previous respondent said: 

The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate
structure
from display.?


I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure,
particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the
formatting
based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply
formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a
non-WYSIWYG
environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the
display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for
applying
the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting
based
entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para
formats is
an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is
done
by the computer, not by the user.

Fred

--
Fred Wersan
VT MÄK, Principal Te
chnical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwer...@mak.com

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Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Robert Lauriston]

You don't need to use structured FM for that. My paragraph tags map to
different formats / tags depending on whether the output is PDF, Web
help, Confluence XHTML, or 7-bit ASCII with layout.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Fred Wersan fwer...@mak.com wrote:
 A previous respondent said: 

 The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure
 from display.?


 I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure,
 particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting
 based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply
 formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG
 environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the
 display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying
 the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based
 entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is
 an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done
 by the computer, not by the user.
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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Fred Wersan]

Just my two cents on this.

There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and 
maybe your philosophical approach - as in "no formatting in the EDD".

When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format 
bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character 
formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for 
every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part 
this means that if you are strict about things you don't let users 
deviate from the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover 
acceptable deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your 
philosophy permits this).

As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD, 
there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times 
when it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too 
complicated and it isn't worth it.

Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try 
to act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no 
new on-the-fly formats allowed.

With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they 
get blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive 
to do things right.

A previous respondent said: "

The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure 
from display.?"


I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure, 
particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting 
based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply 
formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a 
non-WYSIWYG environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker 
you get the display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, 
just for applying the correct element tags. Whether the computer 
enforces the formatting based entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix 
of EDD coding and para formats is an implementation detail. Either way 
the application of formatting is done by the computer, not by the user.

Fred

-- 
Fred Wersan
VT M?K, Principal Technical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwersan at mak.com

Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off!
www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Rick Quatro]

I like Fred's arguments here. I have mainly advocated the
Paragraph/Character format approach in EDDs for two main reasons:

1) It is generally easier to have a single EDD work with multiple templates,
which is advantageous for some document sets.

2) It allows the client a bit of flexibility in determining the look and
feel of their templates. I do the EDD work and they can do the template work
with the Paragraph and Character Designer interface that they are familiar
with.

Because the large number of formats that this approach can entail, you need
to plan your format names carefully so they make sense to the template
designer.

Over time, I have become less strict, and moved to more of a mixed approach.
For certain types of formatting, I will use a base paragraph format and
specify "exceptions" in the EDD; for example, page breaks, extra space at
the end of a list, etc. This still allows template changes with the
Designers, but cuts back on the number of "exception" formats in the
paragraph and character catalogs. I have found that this works well and
still supports the two reasons above. 

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com




-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Wersan
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph
formats

Just my two cents on this.

There is no right answer. Depends where you want the control to be and maybe
your philosophical approach - as in "no formatting in the EDD".

When I went structured, it was an opportunity to reduce paragraph format
bloat. I analyzed what I needed, pared down the paragraph and character
formats and tried to stay that way. I didn't want a different format for
every possible different formatting issue that might come up. In part this
means that if you are strict about things you don't let users deviate from
the set of formats that are provided. But you can cover acceptable
deviations by putting formatting in the EDD (if your philosophy permits
this).

As a practical matter, I have found that due to limitations in the EDD,
there are times when putting formatting in the EDD works well and times when
it just doesn't seem to work right. The conditions get too complicated and
it isn't worth it.

Of course, as a lone writer, I get to make all the decisions, but I try to
act as if it were a bigger setup - no changes to para formats and no new
on-the-fly formats allowed.

With multiple books using the same EDD, they all have to comply or they get
blasted every time I update the EDD, so there is a strong incentive to do
things right.

A previous respondent said: "

The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure
from display.?"


I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure,
particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting
based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply
formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG
environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the
display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying
the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based
entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is
an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done
by the computer, not by the user.

Fred

--
Fred Wersan
VT M?K, Principal Technical Writer
68 Moulton Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
T: +1.617.876.8085 x124  Email: fwersan at mak.com

Get Realistic Background Traffic - up to 75% off!
www.mak.com/YourPatternOfLife | Offer ends September 25, 2012

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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining, paragraph formats

[Robert Lauriston]

You don't need to use structured FM for that. My paragraph tags map to
different formats / tags depending on whether the output is PDF, Web
help, Confluence XHTML, or 7-bit ASCII with layout.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Fred Wersan  wrote:
> A previous respondent said: "
>
> The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate structure
> from display.?"
>
>
> I am not sure that I entirely agree with that. The idea of structure,
> particularly in FrameMaker, is that the computer enforces the formatting
> based on the element structure rather than writers needing to apply
> formatting via paragraph tags as they go along. If you are in a non-WYSIWYG
> environment, then you don't get the display. In FrameMaker you get the
> display too, but you don't have to be responsible for it, just for applying
> the correct element tags. Whether the computer enforces the formatting based
> entirely on what is in the EDD or on a mix of EDD coding and para formats is
> an implementation detail. Either way the application of formatting is done
> by the computer, not by the user.

RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Chris Despopoulos]

I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only.  Users should never just 
apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe).  Structure 
demands template dictatorship on steroids...  Or rather, it imposes it.  To add 
new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them, you would have to:
* Create the new formats
* Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes
* Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element*
* Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the attribute 
vals
* Store all the above in the template


In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and each 
value is the name of a pgf format.  Then you set up format rules for every 
pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute value.  Then 
do the same for char, table, and other formats???  But this kind of defeats the 
purpose of structure.  The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to 
separate structure from display.  You want a machine to make the display 
decisions at the last minute.  And FrameMaker is just one such machine.  By 
using that principle, then you can automate great things, like if you move a 
section to become a sub-section, all the formatting adjusts automatically.  


I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer.  Or 
maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that the EDD/DTD 
is not sufficiently specified for their project.  Maybe it's time to address 
more fundamental issues?
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Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Scott Prentice]

Also .. it wasn't clear to me (I may have missed it) if these 
structured files are sourced as XML or FM binaries. If structured FM 
binaries, local (non-EDD) formatting will generally stick around, but 
can revert to the EDD-defined formats under certain situations. 
Personally, I find that the structured FM binary route can cause more 
problems than it solves (I know this is not a widely-held belief, so 
take with a grain of salt).  :o


If XML sourced (the proper way to do structured authoring in FM .. 
IMHO), heed Chris' advice.


...scott


On 9/11/12 10:45 AM, Chris Despopoulos wrote:
I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only.  Users should 
never just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you 
describe).  Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids...  Or 
rather, it imposes it.  To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to 
apply them, you would have to:

* Create the new formats
* Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes
* Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element*
* Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the 
attribute vals

* Store all the above in the template

In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and 
each value is the name of a pgf format.  Then you set up format rules 
for every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the 
attribute value.  Then do the same for char, table, and other 
formats???  But this kind of defeats the purpose of structure.  The 
idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate 
structure from display.  You want a machine to make the display 
decisions at the last minute.  And FrameMaker is just one such 
machine.  By using that principle, then you can automate great things, 
like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all the formatting 
adjusts automatically.


I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer. 
Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that 
the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project.  Maybe 
it's time to address more fundamental issues?





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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Chris Despopoulos]

I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only.? Users should never just 
apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you describe).? Structure 
demands template dictatorship on steroids...? Or rather, it imposes it.? To add 
new pgf formats, and to set up users to apply them, you would have to:
* Create the new formats
* Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes
* Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element*
* Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the attribute 
vals
* Store all the above in the template


In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and each 
value is the name of a pgf format.? Then you set up format rules for every 
pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the attribute value.? Then 
do the same for char, table, and other formats But this kind of defeats the 
purpose of structure.? The idea with structure is (as has already been said) to 
separate structure from display.? You want a machine to make the display 
decisions at the last minute.? And FrameMaker is just one such machine.? By 
using that principle, then you can automate great things, like if you move a 
section to become a sub-section, all the formatting adjusts automatically.? 


I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer.? Or 
maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that the EDD/DTD 
is not sufficiently specified for their project.? Maybe it's time to address 
more fundamental issues?
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Scott Prentice]

Also .. it wasn't clear to me (I may have missed it) if these 
"structured" files are sourced as XML or FM binaries. If structured FM 
binaries, local (non-EDD) formatting will generally stick around, but 
can revert to the EDD-defined formats under certain situations. 
Personally, I find that the structured FM binary route can cause more 
problems than it solves (I know this is not a widely-held belief, so 
take with a grain of salt).  :o

If XML sourced (the "proper" way to do structured authoring in FM .. 
IMHO), heed Chris' advice.

...scott


On 9/11/12 10:45 AM, Chris Despopoulos wrote:
> I thought the idea was to format via the EDD, only.  Users should 
> never just apply pgf formatting, because it will get lost (as you 
> describe).  Structure demands template dictatorship on steroids...  Or 
> rather, it imposes it.  To add new pgf formats, and to set up users to 
> apply them, you would have to:
> * Create the new formats
> * Modify the EDD and the XML to include attribu.tes
> * Use the attributes to set the current formatting for the given *element*
> * Modify the EDD to set up format rules that map your formats to the 
> attribute vals
> * Store all the above in the template
>
> In theory, you could create an attribute that is a list of values, and 
> each value is the name of a pgf format.  Then you set up format rules 
> for every pgf-level element to apply the format that matches the 
> attribute value.  Then do the same for char, table, and other 
> formats???  But this kind of defeats the purpose of structure.  The 
> idea with structure is (as has already been said) to separate 
> structure from display.  You want a machine to make the display 
> decisions at the last minute.  And FrameMaker is just one such 
> machine.  By using that principle, then you can automate great things, 
> like if you move a section to become a sub-section, all the formatting 
> adjusts automatically.
>
> I'm sure you know all this, but maybe you need to remind the customer. 
> Or maybe you need to interpret the customer request as a symptom that 
> the EDD/DTD is not sufficiently specified for their project.  Maybe 
> it's time to address more fundamental issues?
>
>

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Gillian Flato]

Lisa,
With structured Frame, content and formatting are separate. After you create 
the content, you run the style sheet script (XSLT or XSL-Fo) and it formats it. 
When you send someone the raw XML file, there won't be formatting. They need to 
apply the style sheet script as well. Unless of course, you create a finished 
product like a PDF, then they'll see the formatting you designed.

-Gillian

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 11:45 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats - Re-opened

Hello Again All,

The project that I was working on below (created structured templates and EDD 
for use to convert unstructured to structured Frame) is now in the hands of the 
end users. They are having an issue with the paragraph formatting not 
sticking when they apply it in their new document (the structured template). 
This appears to be a sporadic issue within the same document.

(FrameMaker 10)

For instance,

Header style (contains numbering reset)

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style (the auto-numbering disappears from the style here)

4.   Step

5.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

Has anyone seen behavior before?
If the user changes the affected para to Body and then re-applies the format, 
most of the time it's right.
Any ideas on where we can start to look?

Thanks in advance!
Lisa

From: 
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com]mailto:[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com]
 On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 04, 2012 10:59 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats SOLVED

Hello All,

Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for 
the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using 
the textformat structures.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks!

Lisa


From: 
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM
To: Rick Quatro; 
framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all body again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; 
framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File  Import  Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.commailto:r...@frameexpert.com



From: 
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Gillian Flato]

Lisa,
With structured Frame, content and formatting are separate. After you create 
the content, you run the style sheet script (XSLT or XSL-Fo) and it formats it. 
When you send someone the raw XML file, there won't be formatting. They need to 
apply the style sheet script as well. Unless of course, you create a finished 
product like a PDF, then they'll see the formatting you designed.

-Gillian

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 11:45 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats - Re-opened

Hello Again All,

The project that I was working on below (created structured templates and EDD 
for use to convert unstructured to structured Frame) is now in the hands of the 
end users. They are having an issue with the paragraph formatting not 
"sticking" when they apply it in their new document (the structured template). 
This appears to be a sporadic issue within the same document.

(FrameMaker 10)

For instance,

Header style (contains numbering reset)

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style (the auto-numbering disappears from the style here)

4.   Step

5.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

Has anyone seen behavior before?
If the user changes the affected para to Body and then re-applies the format, 
"most" of the time it's right.
Any ideas on where we can start to look?

Thanks in advance!
Lisa

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com]<mailto:[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com]> On 
Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 04, 2012 10:59 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats SOLVED

Hello All,

Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for 
the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using 
the textformat structures.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks!

Lisa


From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM
To: Rick Quatro; framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at 
lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all  again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at 
lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File > Import > Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com<mailto:rick at frameexpert.com>



From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to "body" 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag" options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com<mailto:lfreeman at oneil.com>

RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Lisa Freeman]

Hello Again All,

The project that I was working on below (created structured templates and EDD 
for use to convert unstructured to structured Frame) is now in the hands of the 
end users. They are having an issue with the paragraph formatting not 
sticking when they apply it in their new document (the structured template). 
This appears to be a sporadic issue within the same document.

(FrameMaker 10)

For instance,

Header style (contains numbering reset)

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style (the auto-numbering disappears from the style here)

4.   Step

5.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

Has anyone seen behavior before?
If the user changes the affected para to Body and then re-applies the format, 
most of the time it's right.
Any ideas on where we can start to look?

Thanks in advance!
Lisa

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 04, 2012 10:59 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats SOLVED

Hello All,

Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for 
the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using 
the textformat structures.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks!

Lisa


From: 
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM
To: Rick Quatro; 
framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all body again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; 
framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File  Import  Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.commailto:r...@frameexpert.com



From: 
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
 [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.commailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil  
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
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Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats - Re-opened

[Lisa Freeman]

Hello Again All,

The project that I was working on below (created structured templates and EDD 
for use to convert unstructured to structured Frame) is now in the hands of the 
end users. They are having an issue with the paragraph formatting not 
"sticking" when they apply it in their new document (the structured template). 
This appears to be a sporadic issue within the same document.

(FrameMaker 10)

For instance,

Header style (contains numbering reset)

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

3.   Step
Header style (the auto-numbering disappears from the style here)

4.   Step

5.   Step
Header style

1.   Step

2.   Step

Has anyone seen behavior before?
If the user changes the affected para to Body and then re-applies the format, 
"most" of the time it's right.
Any ideas on where we can start to look?

Thanks in advance!
Lisa

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 04, 2012 10:59 AM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats SOLVED

Hello All,

Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for 
the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using 
the textformat structures.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks!

Lisa


From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM
To: Rick Quatro; framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at 
lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all  again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at 
lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File > Import > Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com<mailto:rick at frameexpert.com>



From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-bounces at 
lists.frameusers.com> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf 
Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers at lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to "body" 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag" options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com<mailto:lfreeman at oneil.com>


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil & 
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**
-- next part --
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URL: 
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers/attachments/20120907/4737e62d/attachment.html>

RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats SOLVED

[Lisa Freeman]

Hello All,

Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for 
the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using 
the textformat structures.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks!

Lisa


From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM
To: Rick Quatro; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all body again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File  Import  Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.com



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil  
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
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Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats SOLVED

[Lisa Freeman]

Hello All,

Rick was kind enough to work with me on this issue and I am back on track (for 
the time being anyway). He suggested adding the formatting into my EDD using 
the textformat structures.

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. This list rocks!

Lisa


From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:24 AM
To: Rick Quatro; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all  again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File > Import > Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com



From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to "body" 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag" options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com<mailto:lfreeman at oneil.com>


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil & 
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.frameusers.com/pipermail/framers/attachments/20120704/45829d49/attachment.html>

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Lisa Freeman]

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil  
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**
___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
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Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Lisa,

 

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File  Import  Element
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

 

Rick

 

Rick Quatro

Carmen Publishing Inc.

585-283-5045

r...@frameexpert.com

 

 

 

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph
formats

 

Hello All,

 

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

 

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to
body and we have to reapply the format. 

 

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the
structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in
this case. We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules,
ElementPgfFormatTag options but we have more than one paragraph style that
goes to an individual element.

 

Does anyone have any other ideas?

 

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the
template, EDD, etc.

 

Thank you in advance! 

 

Sincerely,

Lisa Freeman

Publication Support Analyst

 

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.com

 


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for
use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil 
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution
of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly
prohibited.
**

___


You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com.

Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.

To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Kristy Nolan]

Hi, Lisa!

Is your EDD set up with all of the paragraph formatting or do you have a 
separate style sheet? We have used both methods (and a hybrid) here. You may 
have conflicting formatting rules that are causing the problems.

Kristy

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:24 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil  
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**


*** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***
This e-mail message and all attachments transmitted with it may
contain legally privileged and confidential information intended
solely for the use of the addressee. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
reading, dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this
message or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this message in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete this message from your system. Thank you.___


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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Rick Quatro]

I may put a picture of my chest in my signature.

 

From: Lynn Gold [mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa 
Freeman'
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

 

Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. 
 Way to go, and welcome back! 

--Lynn 



 

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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Emily]

Glad to see you back!
-- Emily
At 12:21 PM 7/3/2012, Rick Quatro wrote:
I may put a picture of my chest
in my signature.

From: Lynn Gold
[
mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com;
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa Freeman'
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining
paragraph formats

Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if
nothing ever happened. Way to go, and welcome back! 
--Lynn 

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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Combs, Richard]

He said chest, not back. :)

Good to know you're OK, Rick!

Richard

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Emily
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:30 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Glad to see you back!

-- Emily

At 12:21 PM 7/3/2012, Rick Quatro wrote:


I may put a picture of my chest in my signature.

From: Lynn Gold [ mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com; 'Lisa 
Freeman'
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. 
 Way to go, and welcome back!

--Lynn


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Re: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

Good to see you again, Rick, PTL.
For me, a picture of your face would suffice nicely! ;-)

Bodvar


2012/7/3 Rick Quatro r...@rickquatro.com

 I may put a picture of my chest in my signature.

 ** **

 *From:* Lynn Gold [mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com]
 *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
 *To:* Rick Quatro
 *Cc:* framers@lists.frameusers.com; framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com;
 'Lisa Freeman'
 *Subject:* RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining
 paragraph formats

 ** **

 Yup, that's our Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever
 happened.  Way to go, and welcome back!

 --Lynn

 

 ** **

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RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Lisa Freeman]

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all body again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File  Import  Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
r...@frameexpert.com



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to body 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfree...@oneil.commailto:lfree...@oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil  
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Lisa,



Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File > Import > Element
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.



Rick



Rick Quatro

Carmen Publishing Inc.

585-283-5045

rick at frameexpert.com







From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph
formats



Hello All,



FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).



The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to
"body" and we have to reapply the format. 



We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the
structure. We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in
this case. We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules,
ElementPgfFormatTag" options but we have more than one paragraph style that
goes to an individual element.



Does anyone have any other ideas?



BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the
template, EDD, etc.



Thank you in advance! 



Sincerely,

Lisa Freeman

Publication Support Analyst



E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com




**
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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for
use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have
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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Kristy Nolan]

Hi, Lisa!

Is your EDD set up with all of the paragraph formatting or do you have a 
separate style sheet? We have used both methods (and a hybrid) here. You may 
have conflicting formatting rules that are causing the problems.

Kristy

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 12:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to "body" 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag" options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com<mailto:lfreeman at oneil.com>


**
Confidentiality Notice
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only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil & 
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
prohibited.
**


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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Rick Quatro]

I may put a picture of my chest in my signature.



From: Lynn Gold [mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com; framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com; 
'Lisa Freeman'
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats



Yup, that's "our" Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. 
 Way to go, and welcome back! 

--Lynn 





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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Emily]

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Combs, Richard]

He said chest, not back. :)

Good to know you're OK, Rick!

Richard

From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Emily
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 1:30 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Glad to see you back!

-- Emily

At 12:21 PM 7/3/2012, Rick Quatro wrote:


I may put a picture of my chest in my signature.

From: Lynn Gold [ mailto:lg...@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
To: Rick Quatro
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com; framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com; 
'Lisa Freeman'
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Yup, that's "our" Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever happened. 
 Way to go, and welcome back!

--Lynn


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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Böðvar Björgvinsson]

Good to "see" you again, Rick, PTL.
For me, a picture of your face would suffice nicely! ;-)

Bodvar


2012/7/3 Rick Quatro 

> I may put a picture of my chest in my signature.
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Lynn Gold [mailto:lgold at us.ibm.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2012 2:24 PM
> *To:* Rick Quatro
> *Cc:* framers at lists.frameusers.com; framers-bounces at 
> lists.frameusers.com;
> 'Lisa Freeman'
> *Subject:* RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining
> paragraph formats
>
> ** **
>
> Yup, that's "our" Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever
> happened.  Way to go, and welcome back!
>
> --Lynn
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as bodvar at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/bodvar%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
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>


-- 
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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Lisa Freeman]

Hi Rick,

I unwrapped a few para elements and then imported the EDD as you suggested. It 
ended up wiping out every paragraph format in the test document. They're now 
all  again.

It was a good idea though!
Thank you,
Lisa

From: Rick Quatro [mailto:r...@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 07 03, 2012 8:12 AM
To: Lisa Freeman; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File > Import > Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. Does 
that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com



From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to "body" 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag" options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com<mailto:lfreeman at oneil.com>


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil & 
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Lynn Gold]

Yup, that's "our" Rick -- contributing to the list as if nothing ever 
happened.  Way to go, and welcome back!

--Lynn



From:   "Rick Quatro" <r...@rickquatro.com>
To: "'Lisa Freeman'" , 

Date:   07/03/2012 05:16 AM
Subject:    RE: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining 
paragraph   formats
Sent by:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com



Hi Lisa,

Try this: after you wrap a few elements, choose File > Import > Element 
Definitions. Check the Format Rule Overrides checkbox and click Import. 
Does that give you the correct formatting for each element? Thanks.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-283-5045
rick at frameexpert.com



From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [
mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Freeman
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 1:24 PM
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph 
formats

Hello All,

FM10 ? We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table 
(sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap 
the text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we 
wrap the text, we lose the paragraph?s formatting properties. Everything 
turns to ?body? and we have to reapply the format. 

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can?t stray from the 
structure. We?ve looked at Read\Write rules but they don?t appear to help 
in this case. We?ve also looked at using the ?TextFormatRules, 
ElementPgfFormatTag? options but we have more than one paragraph style 
that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the 
template, EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance! 

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for 
use only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you 
have received this communication in error, please contact the sender at 
O'Neil & Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or 
distribution of this communication, other than by the intended recipient, 
is strictly prohibited.
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Unstructured to Structured: Question about retaining paragraph formats

[Lisa Freeman]

Hello All,

FM10 - We are converting an unstructured Frame file to Structured. Due to 
unfortunate circumstances, we are not able to use a conversion table (sigh).

The issue is that during the hand tagging of this file, we have to wrap the 
text in the element tags in para tags to match the schema.  When we wrap the 
text, we lose the paragraph's formatting properties. Everything turns to "body" 
and we have to reapply the format.

We are able to manipulate the EDD somewhat but can't stray from the structure. 
We've looked at Read\Write rules but they don't appear to help in this case. 
We've also looked at using the "TextFormatRules, ElementPgfFormatTag" options 
but we have more than one paragraph style that goes to an individual element.

Does anyone have any other ideas?

BTW, everything works great when a new document is created using the template, 
EDD, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Lisa Freeman
Publication Support Analyst

E-mail: lfreeman at oneil.com


**
Confidentiality Notice
The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and intended for use 
only by the person(s) or organization listed in the address. If you have 
received this communication in error, please contact the sender at O'Neil & 
Associates, Inc., immediately. Any copying, dissemination, or distribution of 
this communication, other than by the intended recipient, is strictly 
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