RE: default reply-to-all (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Paul Findon wrote: On 15 May 2008, at 04:25, Jeremy H. Griffith wrote: On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:05:47 -0400, Alan Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is worse? -- - You reply to a message on the list. Assuming that you are replying to the sender, you include information that is personal, privileged, or inappropriate-for-public-consumption. Your reply goes to the entire list. The damage is done. - You reply to a message on the list. It goes to the sender. With two mouse clicks, you correct the oversight and direct your reply to the list. A default reply-to-all listserv configuration is evil. Quite right. But it's worse than that. A list with reply-to-all I disagree. Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt, others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy weren't speaking _literally_ about reply-to-all, but _functionally_. Your reply-to-list goes to everyone on the list, so it functions exactly as Alan described. You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer something different. OK, noted. :-) Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: default reply-to-all (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Paul Findon wrote (in part): Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt, others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. Terrible approach!! The e-mail client world has been relying on Reply only going to the sender for a long, long time! Changing this behavior is likely to be far more prone to error, IMHO. And, FWIW, there is no Reply-to-list in my e-mail clients at all. How would Outlook or Thunderbird even know these e-mails were from a list? Isn't a list just like a giant e-mail alias (where people can add/remove themselves without needing an alias administrator)? I've been using lists since 1993 and running several since 1996, and Framers is the only list I've ever come across that works this way. Hmmm ... not my experience. The lists that I am on send this stuff to me via e-mail. It is my e-mail client behavior that governs how the addressing is done ... nothing to do with the list. Replying to list messages should be simple - click Reply and the addressing is done. The current setup is cumbersome and has tripped many of us up. If someone wants to reply privately, they will naturally be more careful and double-check the To address. Fred Ridder wrote: FWIW, I currently subscribe to 7 or 8 mailing lists (a couple of them basically inactive), and all of them work the same way as Framers. Reply goes just to the poster; Reply All goes to the list and the poster and anyone cc'ed by the poster. It would drive me a little crazy(er) if Framers behaved differently than the other lists. Exactly the way I would too! E-mail is e-mail. My experience with e-mail client programs: you do a Reply, it goes to the Sender, and you do a Reply-All, it goes to everybody on that e-mail To: and Cc: fields. The fact that it is a list is quite artificial ... consider it a giant alias, and the behavior will make sense perhaps. I am going to stay out of further discussion on this for now - as long as nobody messes with my e-mail client, I don't see the problem at all. :) Z ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: default reply-to-all (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Syed, If you look at the headers on these messages, you'll see many lines that include clues such as: Precedence: list List-Id: An email list for FrameMaker discussions. framers.lists.frameusers.com The email client can look for the clues too, and based on the presence or absence of them, can provide another option. It's just up to the coder who does the client to implement... Art On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:36 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Findon wrote (in part): Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt, others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. Terrible approach!! The e-mail client world has been relying on Reply only going to the sender for a long, long time! Changing this behavior is likely to be far more prone to error, IMHO. And, FWIW, there is no Reply-to-list in my e-mail clients at all. How would Outlook or Thunderbird even know these e-mails were from a list? Isn't a list just like a giant e-mail alias (where people can add/remove themselves without needing an alias administrator)? I've been using lists since 1993 and running several since 1996, and Framers is the only list I've ever come across that works this way. Hmmm ... not my experience. The lists that I am on send this stuff to me via e-mail. It is my e-mail client behavior that governs how the addressing is done ... nothing to do with the list. Replying to list messages should be simple - click Reply and the addressing is done. The current setup is cumbersome and has tripped many of us up. If someone wants to reply privately, they will naturally be more careful and double-check the To address. Fred Ridder wrote: FWIW, I currently subscribe to 7 or 8 mailing lists (a couple of them basically inactive), and all of them work the same way as Framers. Reply goes just to the poster; Reply All goes to the list and the poster and anyone cc'ed by the poster. It would drive me a little crazy(er) if Framers behaved differently than the other lists. Exactly the way I would too! E-mail is e-mail. My experience with e-mail client programs: you do a Reply, it goes to the Sender, and you do a Reply-All, it goes to everybody on that e-mail To: and Cc: fields. The fact that it is a list is quite artificial ... consider it a giant alias, and the behavior will make sense perhaps. I am going to stay out of further discussion on this for now - as long as nobody messes with my e-mail client, I don't see the problem at all. :) Z ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. -- Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: default reply-to-all (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Hi Richard, You are quite right. I did not address Alan's argument, the reason being that his points did not resonate with me. - You reply to a message on the list. Assuming that you are replying to the sender, you include information that is personal, privileged, or inappropriate-for-public-consumption. Your reply goes to the entire list. The damage is done. Maybe. But it's highly unlikely that I would be replying to a message from a mailing list dedicated to a software product for technical authoring and publishing with anything that's personal, privileged, or inappropriate for public consumption. - You reply to a message on the list. It goes to the sender. With two mouse clicks, you correct the oversight and direct your reply to the list. What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a message with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism. Paul On 16 May 2008, at 15:11, Combs, Richard wrote: Paul Findon wrote: On 15 May 2008, at 04:25, Jeremy H. Griffith wrote: On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:05:47 -0400, Alan Houser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is worse? -- - You reply to a message on the list. Assuming that you are replying to the sender, you include information that is personal, privileged, or inappropriate-for-public-consumption. Your reply goes to the entire list. The damage is done. - You reply to a message on the list. It goes to the sender. With two mouse clicks, you correct the oversight and direct your reply to the list. A default reply-to-all listserv configuration is evil. Quite right. But it's worse than that. A list with reply-to-all I disagree. Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt, others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy weren't speaking _literally_ about reply-to-all, but _functionally_. Your reply-to-list goes to everyone on the list, so it functions exactly as Alan described. You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer something different. OK, noted. :-) Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: default reply-to-all (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
On 16 May 2008, at 18:36, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paul Findon wrote (in part): Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt, others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. Terrible approach!! The e-mail client world has been relying on Reply only going to the sender for a long, long time! Changing this behavior is likely to be far more prone to error, IMHO. And, FWIW, there is no Reply-to-list in my e-mail clients at all. How would Outlook or Thunderbird even know these e-mails were from a list? Isn't a list just like a giant e-mail alias (where people can add/remove themselves without needing an alias administrator)? I've been using lists since 1993 and running several since 1996, and Framers is the only list I've ever come across that works this way. Hmmm ... not my experience. The lists that I am on send this stuff to me via e-mail. It is my e-mail client behavior that governs how the addressing is done ... nothing to do with the list. Mailman (the mailing list manager used for Framers), LISTSERV, Yahoo Groups, and other mailing list programs allow the list owner to specify whether or not message replies are sent to the list (normal, IMHO) or sender only. If it's list, the mailing list program automatically adds a Reply-To field to the headers of messages sent out to subscribers that contains the list address, and when they click Reply in their e-mail client, the Reply-To address is used. If there's no Reply-To field, as is the case with Framers, the e-mail client uses the address in the From field. If you take a look at the headers of messages from other groups that you subscribe to, it's likely that you'll see a Reply-To field. Look at the headers of Framers messages, on the hand, and you won't. I'm currently on eight lists. Seven of them add a Reply-To field so that replies go the list. Framers is the odd one out. FWIW, I've setup and run lists using LISTSERV and Yahoo Groups. Paul PS: It just happened again. I meant to send this to the list but it went to Z only. How did I discover this? A message I sent later appeared on the list before this one, so I checked the message I'd sent, noticed the addressing error and sent it again. Humbug! ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: default reply-to-all (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Paul Although I subscribe to both types of mail lists, I never noticed the difference regarding the presence or absence of the Reply To: field and the way that my email client responds to its absence or presence. Thanks for pointing this out. Dennis... * At 12:34 PM 5/16/2008, Paul Findon wrote: Mailman (the mailing list manager used for Framers), LISTSERV, Yahoo Groups, and other mailing list programs allow the list owner to specify whether or not message replies are sent to the list (normal, IMHO) or sender only. If it's list, the mailing list program automatically adds a Reply-To field to the headers of messages sent out to subscribers that contains the list address, and when they click Reply in their e-mail client, the Reply-To address is used. If there's no Reply-To field, as is the case with Framers, the e-mail client uses the address in the From field. If you take a look at the headers of messages from other groups that you subscribe to, it's likely that you'll see a Reply-To field. Look at the headers of Framers messages, on the hand, and you won't. I'm currently on eight lists. Seven of them add a Reply-To field so that replies go the list. Framers is the odd one out. Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: (530) 477-9015 Fax: (530) 477-9085 Mobile: (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
default "reply-to-all" (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Paul Findon wrote: > On 15 May 2008, at 04:25, Jeremy H. Griffith wrote: > > > On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:05:47 -0400, Alan Houser > > > > wrote: > > > >> Which is worse? -- > >> > >> - You reply to a message on the list. Assuming that you are > >> replying to > >> the sender, you include information that is personal, privileged, or > >> inappropriate-for-public-consumption. Your reply goes to the entire > >> list. The damage is done. > >> > >> - You reply to a message on the list. It goes to the sender. With two > >> mouse clicks, you correct the oversight and direct your reply to > >> the list. > >> > >> A default "reply-to-all" listserv configuration is evil. > > > > Quite right. But it's worse than that. A list with reply-to-all > > I disagree. > > Hedley is not asking for a "reply-to-all." What he, I and, no doubt, > others want is "reply-to-list." In other words, when you click your > Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy weren't speaking _literally_ about "reply-to-all," but _functionally_. Your "reply-to-list" goes to everyone on the list, so it functions exactly as Alan described. You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer something different. OK, noted. :-) Richard Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 --
default "reply-to-all" (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Syed, If you look at the headers on these messages, you'll see many lines that include clues such as: Precedence: list List-Id: "An email list for FrameMaker discussions." The email client can look for the clues too, and based on the presence or absence of them, can provide another option. It's just up to the coder who does the client to implement... Art On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 1:36 PM, wrote: >> Paul Findon wrote (in part): >> > Hedley is not asking for a "reply-to-all." What he, I and, no doubt, >> > others want is "reply-to-list." In other words, when you click your >> > Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. > > Terrible approach!! The e-mail client world has been relying on "Reply" > only going to the sender for a long, long time! Changing this behavior > is likely to be far more prone to error, IMHO. > > And, FWIW, there is no "Reply-to-list" in my e-mail clients at all. How > would Outlook or Thunderbird even know these e-mails were from a "list"? > > Isn't a "list" just like a giant e-mail alias (where people can > add/remove themselves without needing an alias administrator)? > >> > I've been using lists since 1993 and running several since 1996, and >> > Framers is the only list I've ever come across that works this way. > > Hmmm ... not my experience. The lists that I am on send this stuff to me > via e-mail. It is my e-mail client behavior that governs how the > addressing is done ... nothing to do with the list. > >> > Replying to list messages should be simple - click Reply and the >> > addressing is done. The current setup is cumbersome and has tripped >> > many of us up. If someone wants to reply privately, they will >> > naturally be more careful and double-check the To address. > > Fred Ridder wrote: >> FWIW, I currently subscribe to 7 or 8 mailing lists (a couple of them >> basically inactive), and all of them work the same way as Framers. >> Reply goes just to the poster; Reply All goes to the list and the >> poster and anyone cc'ed by the poster. It would drive me a little >> crazy(er) if Framers behaved differently than the other lists. > > Exactly the way I would too! > > E-mail is e-mail. My experience with e-mail client programs: you do a > Reply, it goes to the Sender, and you do a Reply-All, it goes to > everybody on that e-mail "To:" and "Cc:" fields. > > The fact that it is a "list" is quite artificial ... consider it a giant > alias, and the behavior will make sense perhaps. > > I am going to stay out of further discussion on this for now - as long > as nobody messes with my e-mail client, I don't see the "problem" at > all. :) > > Z > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > -- Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358
default "reply-to-all" (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Hi Richard, You are quite right. I did not address Alan's argument, the reason being that his points did not resonate with me. > - You reply to a message on the list. Assuming that you are > replying to > the sender, you include information that is personal, privileged, or > inappropriate-for-public-consumption. Your reply goes to the entire > list. The damage is done. Maybe. But it's highly unlikely that I would be replying to a message from a mailing list dedicated to a software product for technical authoring and publishing with anything that's personal, privileged, or inappropriate for public consumption. > - You reply to a message on the list. It goes to the sender. With two > mouse clicks, you correct the oversight and direct your reply to > the list. What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a message with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism. Paul On 16 May 2008, at 15:11, Combs, Richard wrote: > Paul Findon wrote: > >> On 15 May 2008, at 04:25, Jeremy H. Griffith wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:05:47 -0400, Alan Houser >>> >>> wrote: >>> Which is worse? -- - You reply to a message on the list. Assuming that you are replying to the sender, you include information that is personal, privileged, > or inappropriate-for-public-consumption. Your reply goes to the entire list. The damage is done. - You reply to a message on the list. It goes to the sender. With > two mouse clicks, you correct the oversight and direct your reply to the list. A default "reply-to-all" listserv configuration is evil. >>> >>> Quite right. But it's worse than that. A list with reply-to-all >> >> I disagree. >> >> Hedley is not asking for a "reply-to-all." What he, I and, no doubt, >> others want is "reply-to-list." In other words, when you click your >> Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. > > You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy > weren't speaking _literally_ about "reply-to-all," but _functionally_. > Your "reply-to-list" goes to everyone on the list, so it functions > exactly as Alan described. > > You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer > something different. OK, noted. :-) > > Richard > > > Richard G. Combs > Senior Technical Writer > Polycom, Inc. > richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom > 303-223-5111 > -- > rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom > 303-777-0436 > -- > > > > > >
default "reply-to-all" (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
On 16 May 2008, at 18:36, wrote: >> Paul Findon wrote (in part): >>> Hedley is not asking for a "reply-to-all." What he, I and, no doubt, >>> others want is "reply-to-list." In other words, when you click your >>> Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list. > > Terrible approach!! The e-mail client world has been relying on > "Reply" > only going to the sender for a long, long time! Changing this behavior > is likely to be far more prone to error, IMHO. > > And, FWIW, there is no "Reply-to-list" in my e-mail clients at all. > How > would Outlook or Thunderbird even know these e-mails were from a > "list"? > > Isn't a "list" just like a giant e-mail alias (where people can > add/remove themselves without needing an alias administrator)? > >>> I've been using lists since 1993 and running several since 1996, and >>> Framers is the only list I've ever come across that works this way. > > Hmmm ... not my experience. The lists that I am on send this stuff > to me > via e-mail. It is my e-mail client behavior that governs how the > addressing is done ... nothing to do with the list. Mailman (the mailing list manager used for Framers), LISTSERV, Yahoo Groups, and other mailing list programs allow the list owner to specify whether or not message replies are sent to the list (normal, IMHO) or sender only. If it's list, the mailing list program automatically adds a "Reply-To" field to the headers of messages sent out to subscribers that contains the list address, and when they click Reply in their e-mail client, the Reply-To address is used. If there's no Reply-To field, as is the case with Framers, the e-mail client uses the address in the From field. If you take a look at the headers of messages from other groups that you subscribe to, it's likely that you'll see a Reply-To field. Look at the headers of Framers messages, on the hand, and you won't. I'm currently on eight lists. Seven of them add a Reply-To field so that replies go the list. Framers is the odd one out. FWIW, I've setup and run lists using LISTSERV and Yahoo Groups. Paul PS: It just happened again. I meant to send this to the list but it went to Z only. How did I discover this? A message I sent later appeared on the list before this one, so I checked the message I'd sent, noticed the addressing error and sent it again. Humbug!
default "reply-to-all" (was Re: FrameMaker 8.0.3 Update NowAvailable (POSSIBLE WORKAROUND))
Paul Although I subscribe to "both types" of mail lists, I never noticed the difference regarding the presence or absence of the "Reply To:" field and the way that my email client responds to its absence or presence. Thanks for pointing this out. Dennis... * At 12:34 PM 5/16/2008, Paul Findon wrote: >Mailman (the mailing list manager used for Framers), LISTSERV, Yahoo >Groups, and other mailing list programs allow the list owner to >specify whether or not message replies are sent to the list (normal, >IMHO) or sender only. If it's list, the mailing list program >automatically adds a "Reply-To" field to the headers of messages sent >out to subscribers that contains the list address, and when they >click Reply in their e-mail client, the Reply-To address is used. If >there's no Reply-To field, as is the case with Framers, the e-mail >client uses the address in the From field. > >If you take a look at the headers of messages from other groups that >you subscribe to, it's likely that you'll see a Reply-To field. Look >at the headers of Framers messages, on the hand, and you won't. > >I'm currently on eight lists. Seven of them add a Reply-To field so >that replies go the list. Framers is the odd one out. Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: (530) 477-9015 Fax: (530) 477-9085 Mobile: (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com
